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Thread: No Carbon?

  1. #1
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    Default No Carbon?

    Somewhere I read that you should not use activated carbon in a Discus tank. I am going to assume they meant in the filtration system.

    Is this true? Why?

    It had mentioned that it was OK to use in an RO unit or filtering water through carbon which will be used for water changes.

    Is this true? Why?

    What effect if any, does activated carbon have on Discus?

  2. #2
    Registered Member Carol_Roberts's Avatar
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    Default Re:No Carbon?

    Carbon used for a short time to remove meds is fine. Carbon kept in a tank for long periods may start releasing impurities back into the tank. Others have theorized it might remove something essential from the water.

    anyway I don't use it and don't miss it.

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    Default Re:No Carbon?

    And then there was some conjecture about carbon being associated with Hole in the Head disease. I read that on this site, I think, but the bottom line was that there isn't hard-core evidence to make the correlation. It seemed as though the evidence was primarily anecdotal. Good enough for me. I also don't use it and don't miss it

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    Default Re:No Carbon?

    Eheim canister filters comes with a carbon pad, which is good to use for the first two weeks of a new filter set-up, in order to get rid of any contaminents in the canister...then remove and disguard.
    M

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    Default Re:No Carbon?

    outlawpc,
    I agree with Carol that the use of Carbon to remove medications is one of the few good things that it can be used for...especially when you are running a series of medications to deal with a multi faceted problem....Carbon from what I recall is used to give clarity to the water..but the basic approach to discus keeping is WC and more WCs..thus clarity is not a problem....Long term use of Carbon to remove impuritys is like a time bomb...at some point it will super saturate the carbon and then dump the impuritys back into the tank....knowing when such a super saturation will occur is just guess work and not worth the potential problems....Also I have read that Carbon may contribute to HITH....In my opinion Carbon has some distinct uses but in the whole approach to keeping discus I would limit it to only removal of medications and nothing more....

    JMO,
    Tad

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    Default Re:No Carbon?

    Your comments clarify what I read in the book "The Proper Care of Discus" written by Bernd Degen. In which he made a one sentence statement about carbon to filter water for water changes, but not in the tank.

    Having had fish on and off for the last 25 or 30 years, I was a little supprised at his off the cuff comment on carbon by Degen. In all these years activated carbon and salt were things you kept handy (if not used on a regular basis).

    I welcome additional comments on this question.


  7. #7
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    Default Re:No Carbon?

    YEP YEP YEP!
    Tad And Carol are Right!

    Carbon only works for 24Hrs after that its worthless.


    Also Anna Is Right to! it takes out the bad and the good.

    hth
    Cary Gld!

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    Default Re:No Carbon?

    Carol, Cary & Tad, please allow me to disagree with all stated above. There's absolutely no scientific data to support those statements. If that was the case you could make similar claims about peat and other organic materials we use, which can be turned into activated carbon under extreme pressure and heat. Here some info that may help:

    http://www.marineland.com/articles/16ActivatedCarb.asp
    http://www.marineland.com/articles/17RevisActCarb.asp

    HTH,
    Oleg

  9. #9
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    Default Re:No Carbon?

    Sorry My friend,


    But I would never Believe a article from a company that trys to sell the product!

    Again its a waste of time and Money IMPE and Many other Discus Breeders around the world.

    hth
    Cary Gld!

  10. #10
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    Default Re:No Carbon?

    I do agree however, that with daily WC, regular use of carbon becomes unacessary. As a regular chemical filtration it is mainly used to remove odors, disolved organic material, and unwanted gases(e.g. chlorine)which are controled in a discus tank through regular WC.

    O.

  11. #11
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    Default Re:No Carbon?

    Cary, you beat me to it. I should learn to type a bit faster.

    O.

  12. #12
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    Default Re:No Carbon?

    LOL!

    Really am Slow ;D


    What Contaminants Do Activated Carbon Filters Remove From Water?
    Activated carbon (AC) filtration is most effective in removing organic contaminants from water. Organic substances are composed of two basic elements, carbon and hydrogen. Because organic chemicals are often responsible for taste, odor, and color problems, AC filtration can generally be used to improve aesthetically objectional water. AC filtration will also remove chlorine. AC filtration is recognized by the Water Quality Association as an acceptable method to maintain certain drinking water contaminants within the limits of the EPA National Drinking Water Standards (Table 1).

    Table 1. Water contaminants that
    can be reduced to acceptable standards
    by activated carbon filtration.
    (Water Quality Association, 1989)
    ---------------------------------------
    Primary Drinking Water Standards
    Contaminant       *MCL, mg/L
    ---------------------------------------
    Inorganic Contaminants
    Organic Arsenic Complexes   0.05
    Organic Chromium Complexes   0.05
    Mercury (Hg+2) Inorganic   0.05
    Organic Mercury Complexes   0.002

    Organic Contaminants
    Benzene       & nbsp; 0.005
    Endrin       &n bsp; 0.0002
    Lindane       & nbsp; 0.004
    Methoxychlor      &n bsp;  0.1
    1,2-dichloroethane       0.005
    1,1-dichloroethylene     &nbs p;0.007
    1,1,1-trichloroethane     &nbsp ;0.200
    Total Trihalomethanes (TTHMs)   0.10
    Toxaphene      &nbsp ;  0.005
    Trichloroethylene     &nb sp;0.005
    2,4-D        & nbsp;   0.1
    2,4,5-TP (Silvex)      0.01
    Para-dichlorobenzene     &nbsp ;0.075

    ---------------------------------------
    Secondary Drinking Water Standards
    Contaminant      &nb sp;  **SMCL
    ---------------------------------------
    Color       &nb sp;  15 color units
    Foaming Agents (MBAS)    0.5 mg/L
    Odor       &nbs p;  3 threshold
               odor number
    ---------------------------------------
    *Maximum Contaminant Level
    **Secondary Maximum Contaminant Level

    AC filtration does remove some organic chemicals that can be harmful if present in quantities above the EPA Health Advisory Level (HAL). Included in this category are trihalomethanes (THM), pesticides, industrial solvents (halogenated hydrocarbons), polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs).

    THMs are a byproduct of the chlorination process that most public drinking water systems use for disinfection. Chloroform is the primary THM of concern. EPA does not allow public systems to have more than 100 parts per billion (ppb) of THMs in their treated water. Some municipal systems have had difficulty in meeting this standard.

    The Safe Drinking Water Act mandates EPA to strictly regulate contaminants in community drinking water systems. As a result, organic chemical contamination of municipal drinking water is not likely to be a health problem. Contamination is more likely to go undetected and untreated in unregulated private water systems. AC filtration is a viable alternative to protect private drinking water systems from organic chemical contamination.

    Radon gas can also be removed from water by AC filtration, but actual removal rates of radon for different types of AC filtration equipment have not been established.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Water Contaminants Not Removed by AC Filtration
    Similar to other types of water treatment, AC filtration is effective for some contaminants and not effective for others. AC filtration does not remove microbes, sodium, nitrates, fluoride, and hardness. Lead and other heavy metals are removed only by a very specific type of AC filter. Unless the manufacturer states that its product will remove heavy metals, the consumer should assume that the AC filter is not effective in removing them. Refer to the other circulars in the Treatment Systems for Household Water Supplies series for information on systems that do remove the contaminants listed above.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Water Testing
    Regular water testing is recommended to reduce the risk of consuming contaminated water. Many contaminants are not detected by the senses. Even if contamination can be detected by color, smell, or taste, only a laboratory test can tell you the quantity of contaminant actually present. Testing should always be done by a reputable or certified laboratory. Prior to sending in your water sample, determine what you want your water tested for. Contact the laboratory to find out how to take a proper water sample. Remember, there are thousands of substances that can contaminate your water, and they all have slightly different chemical behavior. Proper sampling and handling for one type of contaminant may cause erroneous results for other types of contaminants.

    Once you have the laboratory results in hand, make sure you understand the numbers. If you don't fully understand the results, don't assume anything. The testing laboratory will be able to answer any questions you may have regarding your test results. Understanding the laboratory results will help you select the best and most economical water treatment system. Sometimes just a single piece of equipment, such as an AC filter, is all that is necessary to treat the problem. Other times you may need completely different equipment or possibly a combination of equipment. It all depends on the type and amount of contaminants present in your water.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Activated Carbon Filtration Process
    AC works by attracting and holding certain chemicals as water passes through it. AC is a highly porous material; therefore, it has an extremely high surface area for contaminant adsorption. The equivalent surface area of 1 pound of AC ranges from 60 to 150 acres.

    AC is made of tiny clusters of carbon atoms stacked upon one another. The carbon source is a variety of materials, such as peanut shells or coal. The raw carbon source is slowly heated in the absence of air to produce a high carbon material. The carbon is activated by passing oxidizing gases through the material at extremely high temperatures. The activation process produces the pores that result in such high adsorptive properties.

    The adsorption process depends on the following factors: 1) physical properties of the AC, such as pore size distribution and surface area; 2) the chemical nature of the carbon source, or the amount of oxygen and hydrogen associated with it; 3) chemical composition and concentration of the contaminant; 4) the temperature and pH of the water; and 5) the flow rate or time exposure of water to AC.

    Physical Properties
    Forces of physical attraction or adsorption of contaminants to the pore walls is the most important AC filtration process. The amount and distribution of pores play key roles in determining how well contaminants are filtered. The best filtration occurs when pores are barely large enough to admit the contaminant molecule (Figure 1). Because contaminants come in all different sizes, they are attracted differently depending on pore size of the filter. In general AC filters are most effective in removing contaminants that have relatively large molecules (most organic chemicals). Type of raw carbon material and its method of activation will affect types of contaminants that are adsorbed. This is largely due to the influence that raw material and activation have on pore size and distribution.

    Figure 1. Molecular screening in the micropores of an activated carbon filter. (after G. L. Culp and R. L. Culp)


    Chemical Properties
    Processes other than physical attraction also affect AC filtration. The filter surface may actually interact chemically with organic molecules. Also electrical forces between the AC surface and some contaminants may result in adsorption or ion exchange. Adsorption, then, is also affected by the chemical nature of the adsorbing surface. The chemical properties of the adsorbing surface are determined to a large extent by the activation process. AC materials formed from different activation processes will have chemical properties that make them more or less attractive to various contaminants. For example chloroform is adsorbed best by AC that has the least amount of oxygen associated with the pore surfaces. The consumer can't possibly determine the chemical nature of an AC filter. However, this does point out the fact that different types of AC filters will have varying levels of effectiveness in treating different chemicals. The manufacturer should be consulted to determine if their filter will adequately treat the consumer's specific water problem.

    Contaminant Properties
    Large organic molecules are most effectively adsorbed by AC. A general rule of thumb is that similar materials tend to associate. Organic molecules and activated carbon are similar materials; therefore there is a stronger tendency for most organic chemicals to associate with the activated carbon in the filter rather than staying dissolved in a dissimilar material like water. Generally, the least soluble organic molecules are most strongly adsorbed. Often the smaller organic molecules are held the tightest, because they fit into the smaller pores.

    Concentration of organic contaminants can affect the adsorption process. A given AC filter may be more effective than another type of AC filter at low contaminant concentrations, but may be less effective than the other filter at high concentrations. This type of behavior has been observed with chloroform removal. The filter manufacturer should be consulted to determine how the filter will perform for specific chemicals at different levels of contamination.

    Water Temperature and pH
    Adsorption usually increases as pH and temperature decrease. Chemical reactions and forms of chemicals are closely related to pH and temperature. When pH and temperature are lowered many organic chemicals are in a more adsorbable form.

    Exposure Time
    The process of adsorption is also influenced by the length of time that the AC is in contact with the contaminant in the water. Increasing contact time allows greater amounts of contaminant to be removed from the water. Contact is improved by increasing the amount of AC in the filter and reducing the flow rate of water through the filter.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Activated Carbon Filtration Equipment
    AC filters can be placed in the three following categories: 1) pour-through; 2) faucet-mounted; and 3) high-volume (Figure 2).

    Figure 2. The three types of activated carbon filtration units are: A) pour-through; B) faucet-mounted; and C) high-volume.


    Pour-through AC filters are the simplest. They work like a drip coffee maker. Water is poured in the top and filters by gravity through the filter to the bottom. They are quite slow and handle only small volumes of water.

    Faucet-mounted AC filters are small units attached on the end of a standard kitchen faucet. They are convenient to use, but because of their size require frequent change. Some units have bypass valves, so that just water for cooking and drinking is filtered.

    High-volume AC filters contain much more AC than either the pour-through or faucet-mounted models. High-volume units are designed to be installed in-line, generally under the sink. They are installed on the cold water line, and some units are installed with a bypass to separate cooking and drinking water from other uses. Under exceptional circumstances all water may need to be treated by AC filtration. A high-volume unit may be installed at the point of entry to the house if all water needs to be treated.

    Results of Activated Carbon Filter Testing
    In recent years several independent laboratories have tested AC filtration equipment for effectiveness in contaminant removal. Organizations involved in AC testing are the Gulf South Research Institute, National Sanitation Foundation, Canadian Bureau of Health, Consumer Reports and Rodale Press Product Testing Department.

    Based on the testing results of these organizations, general recommendations can be made regarding AC filtration. High-volume AC units should be used if removal of health threatening contaminants is your concern. Pour-through and faucet-mounted units do not provide the contact time for significant removal of contaminants. If you are only concerned with taste, odor, or color, pour-through and faucet-mounted units will probably do the job. However, they will still require changing much more often than high-volume AC filters.

    Efficiency of contaminant removal and equipment operation vary even among the high volume AC units (Table 2). The most efficient unit is not always the most expensive one.

    Table 2. A comparison of activated carbon filtration
    units. (Consumer Reports, 1990)
    -----------------------------------------------------
            &n bsp; Cartridge Chloroform
    Brand and Model      Price $    Cost $ Removal %
    -----------------------------------------------------
    High-Volume Filters
    Ametek CCF-201       158    20(2) 100
    Ecowater Water Master    250    33(2) 100
    Amway E-9230       276    69    100
    Hurley II       375    --    100
    Filtrate CF 10        85    8    90
    Cuno AquaPure AP-CRF    155    15    90
    Kinetico MAC       275    32    90
    Culligan SuperGard THM    349    37    90
    Teledyne Instapure IF-10 50    12    80
    Omni UC-2        99    20(2) 80
    NSA Bacteriostatic 50C    179    --    80

    (The following two models were downrated because
    they clogged after filtering only 300 gallons.)
    Bionaire H20 BT850    199    100    100
    Everpure H200        298    90    100

    Faucet-Mount Filters
    Cuno Purity PPO1105    30    6    60
    Teledyne Instapure F-2C    24    5    45
    Pollenex WP90K        22    5    30

    Pour-Through Filters   
    Brita           30    8    50
    Innova           7    5    45
    Glacier Pure        13    5    40
    -----------------------------------------------------

    Eventually the AC filter loses its ability to remove contaminants, because it becomes clogged with material. In the case of taste and odor, the time to change the filter is easy to detect. However, in the case of other contaminants, it is more difficult to determine when the filter is no longer performing at an adequate level. Most manufacturers recommend a filter change after a certain volume of water has passed through the filter. Some AC units actually meter the water and automatically shut down after a specific quantity of water has passed through the filter. A general rule of thumb for high-volume AC filters is to change the filter after six months of use or 1000 gallons of filtered water. Tests done by Rodale Press Product Testing Department indicated that filtering performance was reduced dramatically after 75 percent of the manufacturer's recommended life time. These results suggest that filters should be changed more often than suggested by the manufacturer. Some AC filters are claimed to last for five years, because they are rechargeable with hot water (145 degrees F). The heat is supposed to release adsorbed organic chemicals. Little information is available on the prolonged effectiveness of rechargeable AC units. General recommendations are somewhat useful quidelines, but there is no guarantee that they apply to any specific situation. Remember, the only certain way of knowing whether contaminant levels are acceptable or not is by having your water tested.

    A sediment filter installed ahead of any AC filter will prolong the life of the AC unit. Sediment can easily clog the pores of an AC filter within a short period of time. A good sediment filter can be purchased for only a fraction of the price of most high volume AC filters.

    The Bacteria Issue
    AC filters can be a breeding ground for microorganisms. The organic chemicals that are adsorbed to the AC are a source of food for various types of bacteria. Pathogenic bacteria are those that cause human diseases such as typhoid, cholera, and dysentery. Public water systems must treat for disease causing bacteria; therefore, the likelihood of disease causing bacteria being introduced to an AC filter from public drinking water is remote. AC filtration should only be used on water that has been tested and found to be bacteria free or effectively treated for pathogenic bacteria.

    Other types of non-pathogenic bacteria that do not cause diseases have been regularly found in AC filters. There are times when high amounts of bacteria (non-pathogenic) are found in water filtered through an AC unit. Research by R. L. Caldron and E. W. Mood (1987) shows little risk to healthy people that consume high amounts of non-pathogenic bacteria. We regularly take in millions of bacteria every day from other sources. However, there is some concern for certain segments of the population, such as the very young or old and people weakened by illness. Some types of non-pathogenic bacteria can cause illness in those whose natural defenses are weak. Flushing out bacteria that have built up in the filter can be accomplished by running water through an AC filter for about 30 seconds prior to use. Water filtered after the initial flushing will have much lower levels of bacteria and ingestion of a high concentration of bacteria will have been avoided. The flushing procedure is most important in the morning or any other time of the day when the filter has not been used for several hours.

    Some compounds of silver have been used as disinfectants. Silver has been added to certain AC filters as a solution to the bacteria problem. Unfortunately, product testing has not shown silver impregnated AC to be much more effective in controlling bacteria than normal AC filters. Only in the first month of operation did there appear to be any advantage to using an AC filter that contained silver.

    EPA requires registration of all types of water treatment equipment that contain an active ingredient for the purpose of inhibiting the growth of microorganisms. Registration does not guarantee that the product is effective. It only guarantees that the active ingredient will not leach from the filter at levels that would be a health hazard.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Further Information
    For further information contact your local county Extension Office or State Health Department. Additional information can be found in other publications in this series: Treatment Systems for Household Water Supplies

    AE1030---Iron and Manganese Removal (1992)
    AE1031---Softening (1992)
    AE1032---Distillation (1992)
    AE1045---Identification and Correction (1992)
    AE1046---Chlorination (1992)
    AE1047---Reverse Osmosis (1992)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    References
    __________. 1989. Recognized treatment techniques for meeting the National Primary Drinking Water Regulations with the application of point-of-use systems. Water Quality Association, Lisle, Il.

    __________. 1989. Recognized treatment techniques for meeting the National Secondary Drinking Water Regulations with the application of point-of-use systems.

    __________. 1990. Fit to drink? Consumer Reports. pp. 27-43, January.

    Caldron, R. L., and E. W. Mood. 1987. Bacteria colonizing point-of-use, granular activated carbon filters and their relationship to human health. Research Project CR-811904-01-0, Health Effects Research Lab., U.S. EPA, Cincinnati, OH. Reprinted by the Water Quality Association, Lisle, IL.

    Culp, G. L. and R. L. Culp. 1974. New concepts in water purification. Van Nostrand Reinhold Co., New York.

    Ishizake, C., I. Marti, and M. Ruiz. 1983. Effect of surface characteristics of activated carbon on the adsorption of chloroform from aqueous solution. In M. J. McGuire and I. H. Suffet (ed.), pp. 95-106. Treatment of water by granular activated carbon. Advances in Chemistry Series. American Chemical Society, Washington, D.C.

    Rodale Press Product Testing Department Staff. 1985. Water treatment handbook - A homeowners quide to safer drinking water. Rodale Press Inc., Emmaus, PA.

    Taraba, J. L., L. M. Heaton, and T. W. Ilvento. 1990. Using activated carbon filters to treat home drinking water, IP-6. University of Kentucky Cooperative Extension Service, Lexington, KY.

    Temple, Barker, and Sloan Inc. Staff. 1983. Point-of-use treatment for compliance with drinking water standards. Reprinted by the Water Quality Association, Lisle, IL.

    Funding for this publication was by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, Extension Service, under project number 90-EWQI-19252.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    AE-1029, February 1992


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    NDSU Extension Service, North Dakota State University of Agriculture and Applied Science, and U.S. Department of Agriculture cooperating. Sharon D. Anderson, Director, Fargo, North Dakota. Distributed in furtherance of the Acts of Congress of May 8 and June 30, 1914. We offer our programs and facilities to all persons regardless of race, color, national origin, religion, sex, disability, age, Vietnam era veterans status, or sexual orientation; and are an equal opportunity employer.
    This publication will be made available in alternative formats for people with disabilities upon request 701/231-7881.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    North Dakota State University
    NDSU Extension Service

  13. #13
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    Default Re:No Carbon?

    SORRY BUT THE DARN LINK WOULD NOT WORK FOR ME

  14. #14
    Registered Member Carol_Roberts's Avatar
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    Default Re:No Carbon?

    For those of you who don't want to read the whole thing here is the important part ;D

    Eventually the AC filter loses its ability to remove contaminants, because it becomes clogged with material. In the case of taste and odor, the time to change the filter is easy to detect. However, in the case of other contaminants, it is more difficult to determine when the filter is no longer performing at an adequate level. Most manufacturers recommend a filter change after a certain volume of water has passed through the filter.

    The Bacteria Issue
    AC filters can be a breeding ground for microorganisms. The organic chemicals that are adsorbed to the AC are a source of food for various types of bacteria. Pathogenic bacteria are those that cause human diseases such as typhoid, cholera, and dysentery. . . AC filtration should only be used on water that has been tested and found to be bacteria free or effectively treated for pathogenic bacteria.


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    Default Re:No Carbon?

    Thanks Cary, that's great info!

    O

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