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Thread: De-toxifying chloramines...

  1. #1
    Administrator jeep's Avatar
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    Default De-toxifying chloramines...

    When using products such as Prime, Amquel and Ammo-lock, is the ammonia converted to a non-usable substance? In other words, if an accidental overdose occurs, can the bacteria in our filters live on the neutralized ammonia excreted by our fish, or would the bacteria colony starve to death?

    Thanks,

    Brian

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    Registered Member DavidH's Avatar
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    Default Re:De-toxifying chloramines...

    Brian,
    good question, I know that I had two tanks that were fine till I ran out of RO, my membrane quit on me. I started using tap using Prime, both tanks lost bio and I'm going thru hell. Was it the Prime?, sure like to know this myself.

    Dave

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    Administrator jeep's Avatar
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    Default Re:De-toxifying chloramines...

    Dave,

    I've always been told that it's ok to double dose with Prime and that it won't hurt the fish. However, I never thought of what it may do the the ammonia the fish put out and the fact that the unused Prime may compromise the bio load.

    I was asking because a friend had a little problem and with your answer it seems the suspicion may be true ???

    Brian

  4. #4
    Registered Member Ardan's Avatar
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    Default Re:De-toxifying chloramines...

    I think its only a good idea to use those products for water change water that contains chloramines.
    Supposedly those products turn ammonia into ammonium and bacteria still utilize this byproduct.
    http://www.seachem.com/seachemframeset.html

    I personally am not convinced.

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    Default Re:De-toxifying chloramines...

    I am a big user of ClorAm-x and this is their article on Ammonia, here's that source: http://www.ari1.com/id38.htm If you want to waste what I think is a lot of Money continue with Prime and the others if you need to get rid of Cloramines, Clorine and Chloramine. I tried them all but this is better. Here is their article, hope it helps you out.

    AMMONIA:
    Ammonia comes from many sources in aquariums and ponds. These include accumulated and decomposing feces, uneaten food and dead plants. In aquariums, however, it has been shown that the majority of the ammonia in the water comes from the living fishes. Fishes expel ammonia directly into the water from exchange sites on their gills. This means the ammonia enters the water directly without having to be first mineralized from feces, etc. This is why starved fishes will still pollute their water with ammonia even though little or no fecal matter is produced.

    The actual molecular or ionic form of the ammonia present in the water is directly dependent upon the pH, temperature and salinity. The pH is the most important factor affecting the equilibrium between molecular (= "free&quot, NH3, and ammonium ion (="ionic ammonia&quot, NH4+. As the pH increases the percentage of molecular ammonia increases, and as the pH decreases the percentage decreases. Another way of understanding this is to remember that at acid pH's (pH < 7) the ammonia becomes less toxic to the fishes and at alkaline pH's (pH >7) it becomes more toxic. ClorAm-XTM reacts with ammonia in is free, or unionized form. ClorAm-XTM will not only remove the "toxic ammonia" but due to the concentration present in standard dosages it will also remove all the ammonia as the equilibrium between ammonia and ammonium ion shifts as the NH3 is consumed in the reaction. At low pH's this reaction proceeds slower than at pH's above 7, but in practical terms the reaction proceeds quickly enough to provide complete ammonia removal in an hour or less.

    The actual chemical reaction between ammonia and ClorAm-X™ is shown below:
    NH3 + HOCH2SO3Na ® H2NCH2SO3Na + H2O

    The reaction product, H2NCH2SO3Na, an aminomethanesulfonate salt, is nontoxic and is capable of being metabolized by ammonia-oxidizing (nitrite) bacteria. If the ClorAm-X™ is dosed at levels higher than needed to react with the ammonia present in the treated water, the excess may react further with the aminomethanesulfonate salt. This secondary reaction, however, will proceed slower than the initial reaction, and dosing with excess ClorAm-X™ to react with anticipated ammonia levels, such as in shipping bags or tanks, over a long period is recommended. The aminomethanesulfonate salt is stable at pH levels less than 9.0; at higher pH levels the compound will start to react with hydroxide ions, OH-, and some free ammonia may be produced.

    Unlike other water conditioner which claim to remove toxic ammonia, ClorAm-XTM will do so even if the pond, tank, or aquarium is not cycled, is overstocked or is improperly filtered (this is why ClorAm-XTM can be used in live-haul tanks and shipping bags where there is no filtration and where the number of fishes per volume of water is typically several times that found in an aquarium, tank or pond). Additionally, when using ClorAm-XTM to remove ammonia there is no need to do water changes nor to vigorously aerate the water to facilitate is action. This does not mean that ClorAm-XTM should be used instead of proper water maintenance, but when ClorAm-XTM is used water management is made more efficient and effective.

  6. #6
    Registered Member DavidH's Avatar
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    Default Re:De-toxifying chloramines...

    Good info George, I've ordered some it myself. George I know they post the dosage, but do you have a more simple dosage rate, ie. teaspoons per how many gals.

    Thx Dave

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    Default Re:De-toxifying chloramines...

    David they say:
    Dosage: use 1 teaspoon (~ 5 mL) per 10 gallon of water. This is what I also tell people to use if they don't have a test kit. The best kind of kit is one, which will give two different, but related, measurements: (1) "free, available chlorine" and (2) "combined available chlorine".


  8. #8
    Registered Member ronrca's Avatar
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    Default Re:De-toxifying chloramines...

    I e-mail Seachem Tech Support about this topis also a while ago. Prime will detoxic the ammonia/nitrite but still allow the bio to use it.

    Prime has the ability to bind pollutants for up to a 24 hour period and can be dosed daily to help in situations of a damaged or undeveloped biological filter. Even though these pollutants are "detoxified", they are still available to be disposed of by a biological filter. Prime is a strong reducing agent, however the conditions that conventional test kits are performed under (most ammonia tests and all nitrite and nitrate tests) destroy the reducing agent in the sample being tested registering a false positive. Your fish will exhibit tell tale signs of being affected by these pollutants by labored breathing, reddening of the gills, and hanging near the surface. If you experience this, Prime can be used up to 5x
    the dose daily to act as a "band-aid" until your biological filter
    can catch up. After Prime has reduced/bound something, it is broken down and disposed of by your biological filter as well.
    The detoxification of nitrite by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart, and use the nitrite. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion
    into a benign organic nitrogen compound.

    I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify varying amounts of nitrite. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating
    that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product. Your fish will be the tell tale signs of elevated nitrite levels. If you experience labored breathing by your fish, reddening of the gills, and hanging near the surface, you can add more Prime. You can use up to 5x the recommended dose of Prime daily until this problem is under control. If the 5x Prime dose does not bind everything, water exchanges should be performed to thin out this pollutant.
    I have never had a problem with ammonia levels and Prime. I had a tank cycle once with discus in it and I used a lot of Prime. The discus were not skittish or any other effects but the bio still did cycle.

  9. #9
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    Default Re:De-toxifying chloramines...

    I think that Chloram-X and Prime are working on ammonia in the same way. I think it would be difficult to know how easy it is for the nitrifying bacteria to use the ammonia-thiosulfate conjugate. At high concentrations of Prime or ChloramX--I could imagine that this could interfere with ammonia utilization. Personally I have setup a biofilter (cannister filters work well) on my storage container (without using Prime in the storage) which converts the ammonia to nitrate. I only use Prime (and then just a little) if I need to do an extra wc and the water has not had enough time to age (and convert the ammonia).

    In the meantime you'll have to keep adding Prime or Chloram-X with each wc. That's the trouble with chloramine treated water---a wc can actually be ADDING ammonia to your system rather than reducing it.

    You'll know when things are getting under control by watching your fish--always the first sign of a water quality problem comes from the fish.


    Good luck,

    Pat

  10. #10
    Administrator jeep's Avatar
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    Default Re:De-toxifying chloramines...

    OK, I originally asked this question for a specific reason. You guys have confirmed my suspicions.

    A friend started having serious problems recently. After loosing several fish, it turned out to be an accidental OD of Ammo-Lock. Seems the bio filtration was locked-up and the result was high amounts of ammonia and nitrites.

    Be careful and no matter what the manufacturer says, always follow directions

    Brian

  11. #11
    Registered Member ronrca's Avatar
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    Default Re:De-toxifying chloramines...

    Its good to be skeptical!

    I cant speak for Ammo-lock though! Never use the stuff!

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