Beginner Primer - pH and Discus

[JeffreyRichard]

I'm prompted to post this as I read several questions in this section around pH.

There is alot of information, misinformation, good and bad advice around pH and Discus. This can and has lead to problems with many a new keeper. I hope to simplify this topic and offer some appraches that have worked successfully for me. Hopefully you can adopt some of these practices and not have to worry about pH.

I have been breeding angelfish and discus for 14 years. I've had a good measure of success in this time ... there are a few members of this community that have obtained stock from me. I'd like to think my approach is solid. HOWEVER (this is the disclaimer part ...) my recommendations are based on my observations and common sense, not scientific method. Also, my approach only represent ONE approach, and I am not representing this as either the BEST or ONLY approach. It does work for me, however.

If you are interested in a fairly technical expaination, click on this link http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/water/pH.htm

JEFF'S RULES

• Don't worry about your pH!!

Pretty simple ... huh. I must be out of my mind ...

I've been raising Discus in tab water (unaltered chemically) for over 12 years ... the pH out of my tap is 9.5. Yep, 9.5. Now, my water is soft, so the pH actually drops to the high 7's once it mixes with the tank water. But I do 95% water changes occasionally with straight tap and I haven't had problems.

I used to use Seachems Discus Buffer to drop pH to 6/6.5 because all the literature said I had to have acid water. Instead, the chemicals actually caused problems with the breeding of my angels and discus (eggs calcify) ... when I stopped the problems went away.

I don't advocate chemicals to alter pH ... here's why

• Costly
• a lot of work
• Dangerous ... if you don't mix the chemicals correctly, you could have massive pH swings, which I've seen 1st hand wipe out tanks of fish ... stress related illnesses develop such as ich

In my opinion, STABILITY is far more important to maintaining healthy fish than trying to achieve "the ideal pH".

Am I saying that Discus don't do better in soft, acid water? Absolutely not. IF one could easily, cheaply, and safely maintain a low pH, you should do this. What I am saying, though, is not to worry about pH ... domestic discus have seemed to aclimated themselves to harder, less acid water very well ... there are lot's of breeders and sellers raising discus in straight tap water which is not acid.

[DarkDiscus]

Jeff,

Good primer and information!

John

[jeep]

Good post!

[Carol_Roberts]

I agree

[Anonapersona]

Do we risk more bacterial problems and more ammonia problems in high pH water?

My tank runs at 7.9 pH and I worry about this. I know that I can overcome that by even more water changes, but if water changes are upset for some reason, I am concerned that the fish will fall ill that much faster.

[1977]

that's exactly what I'm concerned about as well. It seems that the water could be much deadlier to the fish with a ph in the 8's and 9's. My ph is also in the mid9's after 24 hours and I always use muriatic acid to lower to the 6's. I think everybody has different results than the next person. Is there anything about discus that we can all rely on?(Crazy fish!)

[gogoravah]

I have consistently been having a ph of 6.0 and a guy at the local fish store told me that was too low. I have tried raising the ph simply through water changes, but 24 hours after a 50% water change the ph is back down to 6.0. My fish seem to be doing ok, maybe their color could be brighter, but they act ok. Is there something else I should be doing or should I still just let it go at a consistent 6.0?

[poconogal]

Stability being more important than a number, if your PH is a consistent, stable 6.0, just let it go. 6.0 is fine for Discus, who naturally come from waters with low PH. It's probably a good idea to not listen to people at the fish stores, IME they usually don't know much about Discus, at least.

[nickmcmechan]

Jeff's right, the main thing is keeping the pH stable, not the value in itself

Jeff also accurately states that discus may fare better in lower pH, but its how you keep it stable

my opinion with a pH of 9 would be to mix 75% RO with 25% tap via HMA to get the best results, however you must calculate accuarately each time you do a water change in order to maintain stability

often its better to use the same source (tap) all the time

again, i will repeat the thrust of all this - my personal experience tells me that stability along with water changes are the two big rocks of success in this hobby, whatever fish you keep

[mikel]

Leave the water alone! One of the most amazing thing about keeping discus for me is actually in how simple it is...

Water out of the tap, adjust for temp (just feel it with your hands and roughly match with tank), add a capful of prime, and pour into tank (dont forget to wipe down side and barebottom of tank each time you do water change with a little sponge). Do water change on a daily basis, about 35-45%each day; 90% once a week on a nice leasurely weekend, and you are all set.

Feed 5-7 times a good mix of food; avoid bloat and watch your fish grow.

I used to worry about ph, hardness etc etc etc, and got swindled by LFS selling me unnecessary things like ph-up, ph-down, discus buffer etc etc etc. These are all good product, but totally unnecessary. What you should have on hand is a good Ph kit (use maybe once a month just to check), a good set of meds from Jehmco (like Met, prazi, levamisole), some backup heaters (also from jehmco) and you are done. mike

[Jhhnn]

According to the Denver water board, my supplier, bacterial growth is inhibited by higher pH, and I figure they ought to know. Apparently, most bacteria prefer near neutral pH... something to remember when establishing a new tank.

Very low pH, 6 or less, is also tough on 'em...

Interesting article, with a great chart at the bottom-

http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Art...ts/Ammonia.htm

People who keep rift lake cichlids really have to be careful because of the high pH, the rest of us not so much, provided the pH is < 8.0. At pH 7.5 or less, things really have to get out of control for free ammonia to be a problem.

Some of us have pretty weird water, which I suspect is mostly well water. Those of us who use municipal water, for the most part, really don't need to do anything with the water other than treat it for chloramines- that's for rearing and keeping, breeding being a different matter for some. Or maybe I'm just lucky to have Denver water, which is a remarkably consistent high quality commodity...

[nickmcmechan]

Apparently, most bacteria prefer near neutral pH... something to remember when establishing a new tank.

Very low pH, 6 or less, is also tough on 'em...

Indeed, this is why Discus have low resistance to bacteria...they originate from waters with low pH and therefore little bacteria --> their systems therefore do not build up immunity as they are not exposed

I assume this is why Discus from generations of tank raised are more resistant to bacteria; however this needs to be balanced off against genetic in-breeding.

Hence, why they are deemed more 'sensitive'. So, if we muck about with chemical buffers it starts doing things to the water, the pH can become unstable, the osmostic pressures on the fish cause stress which weaken the immune system.....

I agree - leave the water alone - clean it (dechlorintors, poss HMA or RO), heat it and chuck it in!....and do that a lot!

[gogoravah]

thank you all for the help!! you have just made my day! I inherited this tank and fish with no experience and loved the fish so much that I wanted to keep them. This low ph has had me boggled! I have been doing a 50% water change every week, should I be doing more? I thought about doing it twice a week? Also, I feed 3 times a day, twice with the pellets and once with frozen blood worms or brine shrimp, is that good? I have 4 discus, 4 angels and 3 ple cos, and have been giving them 2 cubes a night, is that good?? Sorry for all of the questions, but Im doing a lot of research to make this tank work for me! And now my mom loved mine so much that she is setting one up of her own!!! You guys are great! Thanks again!

[Jhhnn]

gogoravah-

Dechlorinate and aerate a bucket of your tap water for 24 hrs, then test the pH. Whatever that is, or slightly lower, is what you should have in the tank, too. If that's not what you have, then there's something in the tank changing the pH, some ornament or a huge bioload in the gravel- you inherited the tank, right?

You also need to be able to test your water thoroughly to understand if there's something going wrong in the tank- pH, KH, GH, Ammonia, Nitrites, & Nitrates.

Young discus are easily stunted if not very well fed, which means you have to change the water a lot, to keep it clean and the fish healthy. The only things that will tell you that are the condition of the fish and the results of your water testing...

[discusjoe27]

great post and I agree.