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nc0gnet0
12-03-2012, 10:05 PM
I am pretty sure this will get moved, but I wanted to catch the attention of the Heckel experts here. Been meaning to post this for sometime. This is not a Heckel, but the f2 genertion of a pair of curipera (x) from Kenny. Has anyone ever seen anything like this?

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/retard2.jpg?t=1354583889

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/retard.jpg?t=1354583747

This fish could almost pass as a heckel except the bar is in the wrong spot.

Second Hand Pat
12-03-2012, 10:09 PM
Rick, I have a couple of centerbar Cuipeua...for example

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Cuipeua%20Adult/P1010004.jpg

Discus-n00b
12-03-2012, 10:22 PM
Same. Probably came from the Cuipeua side. Here are my examples:
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/clemmatt/Wildb6.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/clemmatt/Wild27.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7238/7167146507_b00d60d3db_b.jpg

I've also had a Piwowarski RT show some signs of a center bar.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/clemmatt/Discus%202011/PiwowarskiRT6.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/clemmatt/Discus%202011/PiwowarskiRT4.jpg

nc0gnet0
12-03-2012, 10:27 PM
Isn't it odd that the prominent bar on my example is the 6th bar though?

Rick

Len
12-03-2012, 10:44 PM
He's a faux heckel with an identity crisis. Pretty fish though.

Rod
12-05-2012, 01:21 AM
Pretty unusual Rick:) As you say, normally bar 5 is heightened, if at all. Recombinants like this don't seem to breed true. Probably multiple alleles involved and/or epistasis. The jury is out for me on the issue of wheather this involves heckel genes or not.

nc0gnet0
12-05-2012, 03:10 PM
Pretty unusual Rick As you say, normally bar 5 is heightened, if at all. Recombinants like this don't seem to breed true. Probably multiple alleles involved and/or epistasis. The jury is out for me on the issue of wheather this involves heckel genes or not.

Well the following is just a few thoughts/questions on the matter. I seem to recall a discussion on the heckel bar on if the bar was more a factor of genetics or environment. The group that thought environment had a lot to do with it pointed out that it typically faded away in the second generation and beyond.

If we were to assume (dangerous I know) that what I am seeing in my fish is indeed genetic, and while not the same, maybe closely related to what happens in a heckel, it at least suggests that it is almost purely genetic. If that is the case, it seems we would see more fish like this would it not?

Rick

Discus Origins
12-05-2012, 06:11 PM
Rick,

The prominent bar on the F2 X is as you pointed out on the 6th bar, not 5th as the Heckel and the Ica type reds. I am a proponent of the Heckel bar trait being genetic instead of environmental.

It would be interesting to see if this 6th bar passes through. The problem is no one knows exactly what produced the Curipera Xs to narrow down this trait.

Rod
12-06-2012, 03:50 PM
Hi Rick,

In a sense the heckel bar is both enviromental and genetic. The enviroment is a strong factor in natural selection, but it is not the only factor involved. All of these forces act on genetic information. The bar is purely genetic. The enviroment and others factors then "select" wheather that trait is a keeper or not (wheather that organism breeds or not and produces young, or does it become piranah food because it becomes more noticeable to a piranah!!)

My 2 cents!

TURQ64
12-07-2012, 12:26 PM
My truck has a pronounced bar to the rear of center..Could this mean there is a Heckel in it's pedigree back in Detroit?..The fish nearest only have spots...

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/2012%20Idaho%20Adventure/DSC_0326.jpg

John_Nicholson
12-07-2012, 12:57 PM
LOL.....Looking at that I wish I had gone fishing with you while I was there...

-john

ZX10R
12-07-2012, 01:15 PM
Nice Pike Gary those are so much fun catching they are aggresive critters

nc0gnet0
12-07-2012, 02:26 PM
Don't get me started on fishing photo's...........

John_Nicholson
12-07-2012, 02:34 PM
It would be best for Sjip to start posting the ones that he has.....

-john

vss
12-07-2012, 02:42 PM
Here I have some interesting information. In China there is a line of checkerboard turq that has a pretty decent % of 5th bar (some with both 5th and 6th bar) offspring, and this line has been maintained well for many years just simply by inbreeding. I got a chance to talk to the earlier breeders who "created" this line, and what they told me really surprised me. They have never crossed this line with Heckel nor any other wild discus. They happened to get some fry with the 5th bar in a couple of spawns of a pair of ordinary turqs, and then they bred these 5th bar turqs and this is how this line was created.

Xiaofei :)

Eddie
12-07-2012, 03:39 PM
Here I have some interesting information. In China there is a line of checkerboard turq that has a pretty decent % of 5th bar (some with both 5th and 6th bar) offspring, and this line has been maintained well for many years just simply by inbreeding. I got a chance to talk to the earlier breeders who "created" this line, and what they told me really surprised me. They have never crossed this line with Heckel nor any other wild discus. They happened to get some fry with the 5th bar in a couple of spawns of a pair of ordinary turqs, and then they bred these 5th bar turqs and this is how this line was created.

Xiaofei :)

Xiaofei, how do you think the turq was created? ;)

ChicagoDiscus
12-07-2012, 04:56 PM
Isn't it odd that the prominent bar on my example is the 6th bar though?

Rick

that is weird never seen that before ...... Josie