Quick question for the Competition!

[DiscusDrew]

OK Len, Pat, others that are helping to moderate this competition. I need to know if the 8 original fish are mandatory to keep for the entire course of the year. Ive adhered to the rules thus far to a T, but this is something I really need some answers on. Reason being this is a business for me as well, and I have a lot of people interested in these fish, obviously it does not help my odds to sell any of these guys which I understand. Please let me know if its acceptable, as I realize only two will be judged in the finals. And I can pretty much already tell you what two will be mine haha, though obviously things could change.... As far as I can tell from the rules theres no reason I couldnt sell some and mix my contest fish in with another batch of grow outs. I need the tank space!!! One 40 gallon tank with only 8 fish of 4" size is not the standard in my fish room. Nor is it to keep very many fish once they reach this size. THANKS GUYS!!

[Second Hand Pat]

Drew, I can not advise on the selling off of contest fish but if you review the rules you will see once the eight contest fish are selected all other fish are suppose to be removed from their tank. Now I myself have violated that rule with the introduce on a Batch A fish used for teaching my contest fish to eat a new food. The Batch A fish served it's purpose and was removed after two days. Also note that I have excused myself from moderating the contest

From the rules, last sentence.

4. A suggestion is to start with a group of 30 dime size fry and you then document it weekly.. You may start with less than 30 fry but you decrease your odds of a good group. You can not have more than 30 in this initial group. You can tape a dime or other similar sized object to the tank. When your fry are approximately two months old you will choose the best eight fry to follow the rest of the year. At this point a quarter must be taped to the tank or a similar sized object as a reference.All others should be removed from the tank.

[Chicago Discus]

I had a nice batch in the contest and decided to sell them and I felt I broke the rules so I sold the rest and took them out of the contest..........Josie

[Skip]

DREW...

LEN is the Judge for contest..

as a fellow contestant.. don't mix the fish.. sell 6 if you want.. keep the two in a smaller tank alone if you want. but this part of the contest is very clear.. 8 in one tank

if you feel you can not do this due to your bizness model conflicting with you contest rules..

then i would just say.. pull out of contest..

a year a long time to commit.. things happen..

[Second Hand Pat]

Skip, Len is the contest leader. He will not be judging the fish.

[Skip]

Skip, Len is the contest leader. He will not be judging the fish.

he is the only judge of the contest rules.. is my point..

any other input from contestants.. should just be input.. no more .. no less

[Second Hand Pat]

I was not changing the rules. Only pointing out a rule which applied to Drew's question. I clearly stated that I could not advise on the selling of contest fish and also clearly stated that I have excused myself from moderating the contest.

BUT I can state my opinion as a contestant.

[Skip]

I was not changing the rules. Only pointing out a rule which applied to Drew's question. I clearly stated that I could not advise on the selling of contest fish and also clearly stated that I have excused myself from moderating the contest.

BUT I can state my opinion as a contestant.

i agree all you posted here.

point was for DREW needed to call on LEN on this for his information.. since he was wanting OFFICIAL word... and didn't seem to know who to ask.. and input from us.. was just input..and NOT official word

not sure why you read any more into this

[Second Hand Pat]

Skip, I was simply answering Drew's question since he addressed his post to me also. Len is not online. I addressed his concerns within the context of the stated rules and clearly stated my role within the contest. Your following posts gives me the impression I said something that was invalid. If your post are not directed at me please forgive me to taking exception to your post.

[Skip]

pat.. i edited my first post.. with DREW at top..

hope this is clearer now.. LOL :) :)

[Second Hand Pat]

LOL Skip...peace :D

[nc0gnet0]

Drew,

If you were allowed to do that, then I would be allowed to select 4 from each of my groups and combine them, and still be allowed 2 of each group be entered in the final judging. This would be an unfair advantage. I don't see were having less than eight would be a reason for a disqualification, but being allowed to combine them into a tank with non-contest fish might.


Just My opinion
........Perhaps this thread should be moved into the group section?

Rick

[Chicago Discus]

Drew,

If you were allowed to do that, then I would be allowed to select 4 from each of my groups and combine them, and still be allowed 2 of each group be entered in the final judging. This would be an unfair advantage. I don't see were having less than eight would be a reason for a disqualification, but being allowed to combine them into a tank with non-contest fish might.


Just My opinion
........Perhaps this thread should be moved into the group section?

Rick


+1, totally agree.......Josie

[DiscusDrew]

I read the official rules as stating that all original fish from the batch must be removed upon selecting your 8 contest fish. Which makes sense for obvious reasons. However it does not state clearly anything about raising them with other fish, which kind of plays into basic discus keeping. Imean think long term here. As time goes on, these fish become adults and begin pairing.... Were supposed to justkeep all these 8 fish together even if you end up with an aggressive pair? That's not logical and you should be subjecting the fish forcefully into less than ideal conditions. I see no reason all of us should not be allowed to combine fish, it has its inherent advantages and disadvantages. Advantage in large numbers, BASIC DISCUS KEEPING, discus are schooling fish... Disadvantage in cross contamination etc. Maybe even make a clause about the fish having to be of a different strain so they are easily identified. Idk, need an official word on this.

I want to stay in this competition, I've worked hard for it, and we've bent the rules that were not clear already which benefit many people but certainly not myself, in fact it was a disadvantage. Here I don't feel there was even a clear rule made, and I would appreciate it being given some thought.

And Skip lol, you crack me up, stop trying to get me to drop out lol. It's not my fault they are pretty.

[DiscusDrew]

WOULD be subjecting the fish to less than ideal conditions**

It won't let me edit it...

[DiscusDrew]

I reread the rules, it definitely by my English only addresses removing the rest of the original batch, nothing addresses raising them with completely and obviously separate fish. In fact the rule seems to have been made only for one point... To specify your final 8 so that you can not just switch the fish, which makes sense. But I do feel raising them with other fish is a separate issue all together. Again, think about the long term, are we setting this up so that were forced to keep discus in a way that is inconsistent with how we actually raise our fish? And isn't one of the points of the contest to raise discus in the best way you know how, then compare the results in the end? Just questions, not mad or anything at all, I just want people to see the point because it is a valid concern.

[nc0gnet0]

Again, think about the long term, are we setting this up so that were forced to keep discus in a way that is inconsistent with how we actually raise our fish? And isn't one of the points of the contest to raise discus in the best way you know how, then compare the results in the end? Just questions, not mad or anything at all, I just want people to see the point because it is a valid concern.

Yes and no, it's also about keeping as level a playing field as possible.

[Chicago Discus]

Look I would have loved to keep my eight with other fish but the rules said I couldn't I thought .........Josie

[Len]

In regard to the selections of fish, any contestant is within their right to reduce the number to less than 8 without concern for violating any contest rules. I see it as a disadvantage by lowering the number, but that is their own decision to make. Adding any fish to the remaining contest fish wouldn't be appropriate, however. Once the contestants selected their 30 fish and then 8, all other fish were to be removed. While there isn't a specific rule that states you couldn't add fish to the contest fish, it can easily be argued that it is clearly implied by the fact there is a rule that required you to separate them to begin with. I hope that clarifies any questions, but if not please let me know and we can discuss.

Best regards,

Len


PS I tried to move this into the group discussion area, but it doesn't appear that I can.

[DiscusDrew]

Nobody was looking for an exception. I did not believe the rules to be clear, that was the point. I was looking for clarification of the rules, which would then apply to all, not just myself. Like I said, the rules are rather ambiguous on this matter. And honestly speaking make little sense in the long term due to the possible necessity ofremoving an overly aggressive pair, etc. Thank you Len for replying and clarifying.

That said, now what constitutes a tank? Can these 8 fish simply be separated by poret divider? This would solve my current issue which is very simply tank space. And other than cross contamination (which most contestants do every time they do water changes anyway) there is really no difference from them being in a separate tank. The rules seem to intend for the 8 fish to be alone, that is it. So I feel this should be acceptable. Please let me know Len. From there I can decide what to do.

[Len]

That said, now what constitutes a tank? Can these 8 fish simply be separated by poret divider? This would solve my current issue which is very simply tank space. And other than cross contamination (which most contestants do every time they do water changes anyway) there is really no difference from them being in a separate tank. The rules seem to intend for the 8 fish to be alone, that is it. So I feel this should be acceptable. Please let me know Len. From there I can decide what to do.

My initial thought is that this wouldn't violate any rules. I think as long as the fish are segregated from any other fish, the spirit of the rules have been met. That being said, since it is well into the contest, I think it only fair that the other contestants have opportunity to express opinions/concerns before we decide anything.

[Second Hand Pat]

Ok with me.

[DiscusDrew]

I do think it should be a requirement that it be a non transparent divider, so the fish can't see through it..... Otherwise we might as well allow people to combine fish. So basically Poret or a non transparent glass divider/ plexi would be the only acceptable dividers. No egg crate. Like I said, otherwise they basically are in the same tank and my original question comes into play again. It is my experience that they don't have to be able to touch each other to feel that they are "schooling", but only need be able to see each other. So I think if we allow this that should be the stipulation since we are obviously not wanting to allow our schooling fish to school lol.

[nc0gnet0]

From a contest stand point I am ok with it. I do however think it is a bad idea. Dam Drew, just buy another tank! :)

Rick

[Skip]

Since u ask len..

As long a they are divided. I am ok the "Drew Rule"

But any divider should work.. Egg crate etc.... No stipulation for this

I also feel.. Jus get another tank.. Ur bizness will be expanding soon and u will need it anyways.. If not more

[rdiscus]

Guys, check your email (from Len) for Contest Group Discussion

[DiscusDrew]

Fish room is full, and lots of babies constantly. No room to expand and I don't plan to expand until I'm ready to actually move it all to a new location and fish house. Then this won't be an issue. Until then I have to safely work within the confines of my space.... I even made a separate shipping room already and ripped out the closet to install a double 75 stand lol. Already pushing it as much as I can and they make more babies every time a new tank comes in, I think they laugh at me lol. Few months then it will be time to move everything to a new location, trust me I urgently await the day that space is no longer something I even think about lol.

On the dividers, I really do feel if we are not to be allowed to combine fish from different batches then it stands to reason that they need to be separated by something non transparent at the very least. This would uphold the integrity of the original debate in this thread. Just my thoughts. Regardless I'll take all these opinions, decisions, and discussions into account when I decide how I wish to proceed. I respect each one of you. I originally didn't feel that it was quite right that sponsors could enter the competition, now that I am one, my views have stayed the same and so I'm taking that into account too. Just like my business, I won't proceed in this competition without integrity.

[Chicago Discus]

I'm ok with it I usually just go with the flow anyway but to have a chance to respond to the sponsors being in the challenge I will say this. Al asked me to be in the hobbyist challenge and I'm glad he did its been a great expirence documenting a spawn and following there progress. And also as a sponsor I knew in the beginning that I didn't have the space to have two batches going in the challenge so I sold the other batch and stayed with my blues. I have needed grow out space many times during this challenge but I really wanted to follow the original rules, which I interpreted as to have eight discus in a tank and follow the progress of the eight and document any changes hat occurred during the grow out process of all eight discus. Meaning I thought if one fell ill or didn't grow properly or why you picked your final two and what were the differences in the discus that made you pick the final two. But maybe I just read way to much into it and it doesn't matter if we keep all eight together I knew the two I wanted judged the minute I put the eight together............Josie

[brewmaster15]

Guys, please understand this... The initial reason for selecting 8 fish was its a good number and it allows us to somewhat standardize when looking at how things were done in the raising. It also gives the contestant the best chance to get 2 very nice fish out of the group.. Having raised many discus from fry to adult, its just something I have experienced. If anyone wants to decrease the numbers from 8 down..be my guest...but I don't advise it.. especially at this point in the game...I especially think that people will generally get better results with a group of 8 fish, over a group of less than 8 simplybecause the greater the number the more aggressive they youngsters generally eat.

As for the need to keep the 8 separate,its to deter someone from keeping more than 8 of the same strain in the tank and then picking the best at an unfair advantage. Its also to avoid issues where people claim so and so had an unfair advantage due to the stocking densities.

What our rules attempt to do is equalize things for the challengers.

Hth,
al

ps....Future note, questions on the contest rules can always be directed to Len directly, and he can then inform the group of the questions and resolutions.....would make things easier. Tanks!

[RogueDiscus]

So, it appears the intent of the criterion was the selection of 8 individual fish that would continue to be evaluated, without other conditions like tank size, vision, etc. If you think it matters that your fish can see others, go for it, or maybe even add them to your community tank. Who knows, we might all learn something from your methods! As a small-time hobbyist enjoying the contest (my fry were just days late), I think that's one of the purposes of the whole thing. (Sorry for the mild rant.)

Steve

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Steve, the intent for selection of the eight fish was to have a level playing field for each contestant and as suggested have a decent size group from which to make a final selection. Tank size and other considerations is up each contestant provided they stay within the contest rules.