RO Filter Costs

[DiscusLoverJeff]

I did not want to hijack anyone else's thread about RO systems and expenses so I am starting this one.

About a year ago I decided to start using 100% RO water for all my 8 to 10 tanks ranging from 110, 95, 90, 50, 37, 37, to 4 or 5 20H. I purchased a 300 gpd RO/DI system slightly used for $300.00. I also had a 150 gpd unit which I had recently bought new filters and membrane for ($58.00 for membrane and $30.00 for filters).

After the first month of doing average 75% to 85% daily water change on the smaller tanks which include the fry tank, growout tank and pairs tank ( 2-37 gal and 4-20 gal) and 60 to 75% weekly on the larger display tanks, I was replacing filters on both systems almost every 3 weeks on the 1 and 5 micron filters and 5 weeks on the sediment filters (2 on each unit). I even went with the high capacity filters for up to 20,000 gallons. But consider that average daily use is 60 to 90 gallons RO water, and you lose 4 times that in waste water.

Price per month is now averaging $60.00 to $75.00 for filters and another $25.00 for RO Right water conditioner to bring TDS back to the breeding levels of 75 and all other tanks to 170/180.

Now some of you have posted threads about the use of tap/ro or tap only and I can honestly say after a full year on cost analysis of $100.00 average per month (not including membrane replacement every 5 to 6 months on 2 units) I am very highly considering reversing back to 100% tap water and just adjusting the ph with Seachem ph buffer average cost $12.00 monthly. I will of course have a much higher TDS count of about 250 to 275 but the costs will be considerably lower.

Since most of us are in the hobby as a "hobby" and not a profit gain, (because lets face it, there is not real profit in breeding and raising discus, lets be real about that) I feel that I could take my chances with tap water and maybe with a 10% to 20% mix of RO water.

And, lets not forget the amount of waste water being used here as well. An increase in my water bill since using 100% RO was about $25.00 per month. Being on what they call a "community well" does not thrill me as to the water quality which is what brought me to going with RO in the first place. But after seeing the how fast my filters are getting dirty a whole house water system might be practical, but I feel I would be replacing those filters just as often and at a greater cost. So?

Just an average breakdown for the newbies out there considering whether to use RO or Tap. I am in no way trying to discourage anyone, it's just my first year assessment of the costs.

[Poco]

Thanks for sharing Jeff. Very nice breakdown of costs using a RO system.

On the discus buffer, you can also use food grade phosphoric acid and age water for 24hrs. I bought 4liter for about $60 from a local chemical factory, keeping in mind everything is expensive in Canada :( you can probably find it cheaper in US.

I use about 8-10ml per 55gallon barrel so you can imagine how long it will last and is at a fraction of cost compared to Seachem Buffer. HTH

[Bud Smith]

Thanks for the cost break down - I always thought about running a r/o unit to my fish room and the cost involved - I think my storage tanks will continue to do just fine lol

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Thank you for the information Poco. I will look into using that but my main concern for the RO was keeping the pairs in better water for breeding and the juvies in better water for growout.

[Poco]

With your TDS you can still keep you pairs but hatch rate might be a bit low. I know people who keep juvies in RO reject, you will be fine in aged tap.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

That is my current thinking Poco.

[Mr.Al]

Hi Jeff, first thank you for sharing the following information with the rest of us on SD. After re-reading your tread and comparing you number as closley as I could with my ow in regards to my ro unit..A Red Flag popped out to which you might not even be aware of. This concerns you having to replace your ro unit's membrane every 5 to 6 months, either one or two situations have occurred here. The units were not correctly installed properly from the beginning or the type of membrane you are using within your units are not the correct ones to be using. If the membrane is if a TFC kind, then that type of memebrane should never come into contact with water containing chlorine or Chloramine without those chemicals first being removed from the system by using two speical carbon filters within your ro system. Otherwise these two chemicals with ruin/foul your ro membranes and cut production rate down of good ro water quickly, thus you having to replace your ro membrane more often. Any company selling good ro equipment willl or should have explained that to you from the very beginning. Most ro membranes should last you a good year and a half to two years if not longer before ever having to be replaced. Hopes this helps?...Al from Omaha

[Eddie]

I would skip any type of chemical buffers and just run straight tap. Use RO for breeding purposes only IMO. Also, you are wasting money on RO right. It's much cheaper to buy the individual components that are beneficial for the fish.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Hi Al,

Thanks for the information regarding the membranes. Both systems were built by The FilterGuys. They have a great reputation for building and using quality parts and filters. But what most people have to consider is the amount of water being used daily (including waste water), weekly and monthly. A membrane like filters can only handle so much before they go bad. Each one is rated for a maximum output.

When you are averaging lets 75 gallons a day, it's more like 300 gallons a day going through the membrane. So that's like 9,000 gallons average per month and 54,000 over 6 months. Even the membrane from what I was told can effectively give you between 30,000 and 40,000 gallons over its lifetime. Sure many people can keep a membrane for 2 years, but what is their total output?

This is something I will try and confirm.

Thanks!

[Mr.Al]

Hi Jeff,Oh I realise the FilterGuys are good, but any company I ever talked to about ro membranes and how long on the average life expectence they should have and from last all said the same thing about a good year and a half to two years. May I ask cause you never did mention it or not whether are you using a booster pump with your systems to bring your overall PSI higher closer to 90 PSI to increase your ro production? I'm fully aware of the ratio between waste water to what one actually gets in the form of good ro water. But sitting down and figuring out a good formula in the form of ro and waste water and still end up with good water for you to use with your discus, and then having waste to use on your other fish, your biological bacteria and plants should help spread that waste water around enough for you to get some benefit in using, other than pouring it down the drain and loosing money in the long run. At leaset that is what I do to help cut cost. Remember that waste water is full of trace elements, so why throw it away, and then turn around and purchase supplements to add to your water when you already have them within the waste water its self?...Al in Omaha

[DiscusLoverJeff]

I am running a booster pump. Since I do have one, I have talked with the FilterGuys and they recommended a 1 micron prefilter before the booster pump to help eliminate some of the larger particles. Even with that, my prefilter is dirty in days.

I did however call my village hall and they assured me (for what that is worth) that they have not done anything to the water supply in months. So I asked them then why are my filters clogging up so fast? No reply.

My source water could definately be the main issue but until something changes, I am going through filters like crazy. That is the only thing at this moment that is stopping me from going straight tap, I would hate to think that my water supply, even treated with prime and aeration, could kill my fish.

[Mr.Al]

Jeff, I would be very concerned if your ( mine) prefilters are/ were getting so dirty so quickly. You did mention that your community gets its water from a well? I'm wondering if the well has seen better days and all its pulling up particles located close to the bottom of the well before it goes bust. Just might be the reason your water company would not reply to your question. Lets face it a town having to dig and replace its water well can be very expensive during these hard time as IU'm sure you know. For those of us that live in Omaha we get our water from the Missouri River, which has to pass threw the City's water treatment plant before being sent out to its customers. And my prefilter doesn't even have a hint of being dirty or being needed to be replace. I'm also lucky that they issue two yearly reports on the city's water condition for its customers to see and evaluate in order for customers to voice any concern they may have on the drinking water here. Well, Jeff I hope you'll be to figure what is going on and that you'll get a better handle on the situation, especially when it comes to your discus and your well being...Al in Omaha

[beerocks]

Jeff, I am new to the hobby of discus, like brand spanking new, but have you ever considered using rain water? I have been testing the water at my parents house that they use for gardening its all rain water in 55 gallon drums. Though I have yet to test the tds and kh. I live in North Carolina.

Rain water test:

PH : 6 - 6.4
Ammonia : .25 ppm
Nitirite : 0 ppm
Nirate: 0 ppm

Nova

[Jeff O]

I really appreciate you posting this Jeff.
I had the luxury of very soft water out of the tap at my previous house. Unfortunately my current ph out of the tap is 8.5-9.0 (I don’t necessarily mind this but I would like to breed again) Because of this my hatch rate is 0... I’ve been debating rather or not to get a small RO unit (50 gals a day would due) I only have 2 29's for breeding so I don’t need anything big. I don’t really trust buffers though, do you have any experience using them? I have heard not so great things about them but I would love to hear if anyone has had success with them because it would be much cheaper than running the RO.
-Jeff

[Bill63SG]

I really appreciate you posting this Jeff.
I had the luxury of very soft water out of the tap at my previous house. Unfortunately my current ph out of the tap is 8.5-9.0 (I don’t necessarily mind this but I would like to breed again) Because of this my hatch rate is 0... I’ve been debating rather or not to get a small RO unit (50 gals a day would due) I only have 2 29's for breeding so I don’t need anything big. I don’t really trust buffers though, do you have any experience using them? I have heard not so great things about them but I would love to hear if anyone has had success with them because it would be much cheaper than running the RO.
-JeffNot to get off topic too much,But if you think you need a 50gpd,then get a 100gpd.Makes 50gpd under ideal conditions.

[YSS]

Thanks for the detailed info, Jeff. This is very helpful as I am considering an RO system for an automatic drip water changing system for my 265G tank. I was planning on doing 50G daily drip. However, I did not expect such a high cost. Based on what I've read, as Mr. Al stated, it appeared that I would have to changed the pre-filter every 6 to 12 months months and the membranes every 18 - 24 months or so. I was assuming no more than $20 per month as an overall cost including adding the trace elements back to the water. Either I am way off on my calculation or as Mr. Al mentioned, something may be off with your set up. Everything I've read so far stated that if you do a good job flushing the membranes before using the system, they should last a long time.

[Brent1972]

Thanks for the detailed info, Jeff. This is very helpful as I am considering an RO system for an automatic drip water changing system for my 265G tank. I was planning on doing 50G daily drip. However, I did not expect such a high cost. Based on what I've read, as Mr. Al stated, it appeared that I would have to changed the pre-filter every 6 to 12 months months and the membranes every 18 - 24 months or so. I was assuming no more than $20 per month as an overall cost including adding the trace elements back to the water. Either I am way off on my calculation or as Mr. Al mentioned, something may be off with your set up. Everything I've read so far stated that if you do a good job flushing the membranes before using the system, they should last a long time.


It depends on the quality of your tap water to how long the filters last , My 1 micron sediment filter lasts minimum of 6 months I use a ChloraPlus filter to remove chlorine and that last 90,000 litres and my RO membrane is 2 years old and still fine. my water pressure is 88psi and I have a waste to product ratio of 2 - 1. I produce 600 litres a day and add tropic pro-Discus Re-min.

[ausuriello2nd]

Hi Jeff, to you hear that there is sediment filter which one can attach to the booster pump tp prevent your booster pump from becoming cloged with unwanted sediment? Thus prevent an decease in total output production of ro water being produced..You might want to checkt on this attachment and what it is all about with the Filter Guys, and see if it will greatly improve your over all ro water product, and help to bring your PSI higher, plus save you from having to eventually having to replace your booster pump sooner than usual. I understand from the guys at Bulk Reef offers and sells this item. I hope this additional information helps you in obainting more good ro water from your unit and saves your money in the long. I will be looking into this item as well and is suppose to be very easy to attach to a prexisiting sysytems, though my current PSI runs over 90 PSI and I'm very pleased in how my ro unit is functioning for me ....Later..Al from Omaha

[Buckeye Field Supply]

On your 300 gpd system, do you have prefilters that are 20" long or the standard 10" length? Because you mentioned a 20,000 gallon chlorine capacity, my guess is you have 10" x 2.5" filters - You'd change filters less often with bigger filters, but that wouldn't really save you money. Based on some assumptions concerning your 300 gpd system, the flow rate exceeds the max flow rate for a 10" carbon block. I couldn't tell if you had more than one carbon stage. I'm concerned that you may be getting chlorine making its way to the membrane - and that's what's causing your short membrane life. Membranes don't have a life span based upon the number of gallons run through them as mentioned in an earlier post. Feedwater quality varies so much that you can't really estimate membrane life span in that way.

You may want to preceed your 1 mic sediment filter with a 5 mic sediment filter. Are you using depth filters or standard poly filters? You'll get longer life out of depth filters. Better yet - if you install a PLEATED 5 micron ahead of both systems, that filter could be washed rather than replaced. This would save you a bunch. I don't know if you have your systems close to one another or how your feedwater lines are plumbed, but you could install a single 5 mic pleated that then feeds both systems. If you can tell me how the feedwater lines are plumbed, and if you like to run the systems simultaneously, I can tell you the size of the prefilter you'll need - it will be larger than the "standard" 10" x 2.5".

Russ

[Buckeye Field Supply]

We recommend customers place booster pumps after the prefilters so the prefilter housings are not exposed to the elevated pressures. This is more of an issue if your system has clear housings. To keep carbon fines out of the pump we recommend a stainer after the last carbon block but before the pump:

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/BuckeyeFS/strainer2cut_zps529e08a4.jpg

[DiscusLoverJeff]

I have a 1 micron prefilter before the booster pump. Then after booster pump a 5 micron followed by 2 sediment filters (high capacity as mentioned) and then into the double membrane. I will post another picture of the entire setup.

Thanks for the information Buckeye!

[Buckeye Field Supply]

Not sure I follow. Is this right?
1 mic sed->
pump->
5 mic carbon block
x mic sed->
x mic sed->
RO+RO (plumbed in series or in parallel?)

Are we talking about the 300 gpd system, or the 150 gpd system?

And what size are all these filters? The standard ~10" long x 2.5" diameter?

Russ