Blue Diamond Pair

[Discus-n00b]

Here is my BD pair from Mike a while back. Not confirmed yet as they haven't had wigglers, but by looking at the tubes when they are down its definitely a male and female.

Male on left, female on right
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8092/8400335566_a1af0a8fd6_b.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8235/8400335358_7d3e4d6808_b.jpg

Female
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8359/8400335474_062efa8d44_b.jpg

Male
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8213/8399247301_57cac09043_b.jpg

Male on right in this photo
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8229/8400335088_6afb22dc33_b.jpg

Just a shot for fun
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8475/8399247233_ffc8042070_b.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

Beautiful pair Matt. Love those red eyes. Have fun confirming them ;)

[boscobear]

Beautiful pair, good luck with them. Really nice close up photo too, I enjoyed looking at the picture. Nat Geo stuff



Ron

[Poco]

Stunning pair Matt! I hope they confirm for you.

[ockyra215]

Nice Pair Matt good luck with them!

[ZX10R]

Show off!!!!

[John_Nicholson]

Man they look great!

-john

[Chicago Discus]

They look great matt let us know when they confirm.....Josie

[Spencer]

Those are some nice BD's.... Good Luck with the breeding.

[Brokenrack]

Very nice eyes!
Best of luck!
Scott

[Discus-n00b]

Thanks all. After seeing the BDs Mike brought to Atlanta (Josie's now and pictured in my avatar lol) I HAD to have some as close to them as possible so I let Mike know and he sent some great ones.

[Skip]

Matt..

you should check out this guys pics of SHRIMP!

you would really like them!

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=183422

his website

http://www.speedieaquatics.com/

[DiscusLoverJeff]

They look amazing Matt. My last pair looked just like them, especially with solid red eyes.

Good luck!

[Discus-n00b]

Thanks, I love the blue with solid red eyes one of my favorite combos. Skip, he does have some nice pictures. I've toyed with setting up a small shrimp tank before, would be good for macro photography and those pics just make the thoughts come to the front of my mind again.

[a volar]

Simply amazing!!!
Really beautiful fish Matt.

[pauline]

Those are beautiful discus and fantastic photos.

[Bilbo]

Is there anyone that is offering blue diamonds with red eyes like this? Insanely beautiful.

[Discus-n00b]

I got these from Mike Beals, shoot him a message and see what he can get. I do have to admit though, these fish did not keep their color. They are now a more drab grey color with a little blue on their fins. They still eat great, and I haven't changed the diet any, they are fat and happy....but the blue just doesn't hold. I've noticed this with many blues lately and discussed the same thing with Eric (Carolina Discus) and he's noted a similar outcome.

[Bilbo]

What the heck!? Why isn't the blue holding? Surely these "faded" discus are not being fed hormones. In the ram world and flowerhorn world, this is what would cause them to lose their color. At least if its a drastic color loss. The type of food can ofcourse impact this as well but im not sure it would impact it as much as what you are describing. What are your thoughts on why they have lost so much color?

[Poco]

What the heck!? Why isn't the blue holding? Surely these "faded" discus are not being fed hormones. In the ram world and flowerhorn world, this is what would cause them to lose their color. At least if its a drastic color loss. The type of food can ofcourse impact this as well but im not sure it would impact it as much as what you are describing. What are your thoughts on why they have lost so much color?

It is quite possible that they were juiced up but who really knows what is the case.

[William Palumbo]

The Blue Diamond in general, has lost it's color over the years from when they were first made available(affordable)to the hobbyist. They were much bluer when they first came out and people complained about the Carrot orange eye. Take that eye color over present body color hands down. The sad state of the blue is why I won't keep any for myself. Much better blue fish out there IMO...Bill

[musicmarn1]

I would love to know what you find a better alternative?

And I find that pair stunning, hope they bring you little bundles of slime soon!


The Blue Diamond in general, has lost it's color over the years from when they were first made available(affordable)to the hobbyist. They were much bluer when they first came out and people complained about the Carrot orange eye. Take that eye color over present body color hands down. The sad state of the blue is why I won't keep any for myself. Much better blue fish out there IMO...Bill

[William Palumbo]

Wayne Blue Titans...VR's...Blue/Violet Knights. Stendker Cobalts...Bill

[Discus-n00b]

I'm coming to the same realization on the blues, especially after speaking to Eric about it. He's seen the same thing for a while. I held hope as I love a clean BD with red eyes. I can't confirm or deny they were juiced, and I don't want to make any judgement on that but once they started fading they faded really fast. Female first, then the male. Like I said, no diet change, same water, their health is still just as good as it was so either its the genes or the juice I would say....which for sure is a mystery. Not Mike's fault in anyway, wanted to throw that out before someone jumps to conclusions.....like stated I just think its the blue asian lines these days.

I will try and get a picture to show you all. It really is quite a drastic difference.

[Discus-n00b]

Prepare to be shocked. Would love to hear opinions after seeing the pictures. These 2 faded then I moved them to the 100gal to be with all of the other misfits, but my Red Turqs still look like RTs, my wilds still look like wilds....the blues are the only ones that have faded. On juiced fish, would the fins hold the color better? I was just thinking like human hair can hold traces of substances from our past (sometimes used for drug tests, etc) maybe the fins would hold onto that permanent color better than the body? I don't know. Like I said, could be hormones, could be genes, could be both.....no exact way for me to tell.

These are all of the male from the first pictures.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/clemmatt/bdfade1_zps590143cc.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/clemmatt/bdfade2_zps99ed87cc.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/clemmatt/bdfade3_zps61d84931.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/clemmatt/bdfade4_zps2277154d.jpg

[nc0gnet0]

That is quite intereting, but I am not sure I would attibiute that as much to hormones as I would genetics. I am not even sure "juicing" a Blue diamond would even give the same results as other fish (red/orange etc). I think most likely this lightening can be attributed to age, and it's color loss almost parrellels that of a white butterfly.

Wish the fish were a little bit bigger, but I actually like the look of these, closest thing to snow white with red eyes I have seen......


Btw did you ever confirm this pair? They for some reason look smaller than they did when you posted the first pictures, are they healthy?

[William Palumbo]

WOW...Totally shocked!...I never saw a change like that in a healthy Discus...Bill

[Bilbo]

Sham wow! That being said... they look like a strain all to their own, lol.

[Discus-n00b]

Never confirmed the pair other then watching them lay eggs. One laid eggs the other made passes with a different shaped tube so I labeled it a male. No fry. They are about the same size as original photo, but I put them in a larger tank with larger fish (some Piwowarski jumbos, wilds, etc) so those photos are a bit of a trick on the eyes. No visible confines of the tank to give size reference. I got them from mike at around the 5-5.5" mark.

[a volar]

WOW!! That is a huge change, they also look smaller than previous pictures but I could be wrong.

Matt the ones from Eric looks also like yours?

[Discus-n00b]

I don't have any fish from Eric Ismael. Just talked to Eric about the fish, the color change, and the overall disappointment in blue strains lately.

[nc0gnet0]

Interesting, I would love to see a batch of fry develop frm these two, has my curiousity peeked.........

[a volar]

I don't have any fish from Eric Ismael. Just talked to Eric about the fish, the color change, and the overall disappointment in blue strains lately.


Sorry, I misunderstood, I though Eric has the same issue with fish of his own :)

[blueluv]

Wow! That is a drastic change from the other pics. How long after you received them, did they start to fade?

[blueluv]

Does this only happen with the Asian blue diamond?

[Discus-n00b]

I couldn't say Chris, I've only had these asian ones but from what I've seen from people with Hans or like Liz's homegrowns they've never had something like this happen.

This happened a good while after I got them though I can't really pinpoint exact dates, but when it did go it went fast.

[LizStreithorst]

I have never seen anything like it. If the fish are indeed healthy you have something extremely rare.

[nc0gnet0]

but when it did go it went fast.

That concerns me, would much prefer a gradual change to this color. How is thier appetite and feces? Do they still exhibit any breeding behaviour?

[nc0gnet0]

I have never seen anything like it. If the fish are indeed healthy you have something extremely rare.

+1 If they were healthy I would take them in a heartbeat, and pay double what you paid for them.

[LizStreithorst]

Matt, if they are as they appear in the pics and they are also healthy you would be a fool to sell them at any price.

[blueluv]

If they are both infertile, can the female still produce eggs and the male make a pass at them?

[William Palumbo]

Matt, how long have they had the color change for?...Bill

[Discus-n00b]

That concerns me, would much prefer a gradual change to this color. How is thier appetite and feces? Do they still exhibit any breeding behaviour?

Poo seems normal, never see anything weird or different in the tank. Nothing white from any of the fish. Thats the odd thing to me, they still eat great and act normal but its like they both just got bleached. I haven't seen them breed in quite a while, nor dance or anything. Like I said after they started fading and they seemed "stagnant" in wanting to breed I moved them to the 100gal oddball tank in hopes maybe that triggered something but I haven't seen anything. But the 100gal doesn't offer much opportunity for breeding either.

Perhaps I need to separate these two again and see what happens.


Matt, how long have they had the color change for?...Bill


Couple of months now maybe? I wish I had pinpointed the date better but I can guesstimate a couple of months? 3-4? Probably no more than 4?

[blueluv]

I was asking about their fertility because it is possible that they were given hormones as juvies. I'm not saying that they were, just a thought.

[LizStreithorst]

It has nothing to do with hormones. Exporters haven't used hormones for years because they cause organ failure. Besides, hormones make a fish more intensly colored not less colored.

[timmylucas]

Nice pair

[Discus-n00b]

It has nothing to do with hormones. Exporters haven't used hormones for years because they cause organ failure. Besides, hormones make a fish more intensly colored not less colored.

But wouldn't hormoned fish be more prone to color loss as they age because the new owner won't feed it to them? I don't know, just asking.

[William Palumbo]

IME...most hormoned fish lose color very fast once with new owners. I had large fish do this, and younger, ones just die off at their small size...Bill

[Chicago Discus]

Where did they come from?

Sorry I know Beals but what farm

[TNT77]

Where did they come from?

Sorry I know Beals but what farm
Jeffery Yang

[yim11]

Matt,

Any chance it may be tapeworms causing an internal/nutrition issue? 48 hr prazi bath might not hurt to try?

HTHs

[Discus-n00b]

Jeffery Yang

Thats what I would assume because thats the only person Mike gets fish from I think?

[Chicago Discus]

Jeffery Yang

Tara, you know what happened to me ( I'm not mentioning any names) but I purchased a large group of show grade Discus for a pretty good penny and after a few weeks they faded and I got burned. So it does happen so be careful people.....Josie

[Discus-n00b]

Matt,

Any chance it may be tapeworms causing an internal/nutrition issue? 48 hr prazi bath might not hurt to try?

HTHs

I mean at this point anything could be possible. They've been wormed before, and they don't seem to be losing any weight however I see them every day so it may be harder for me to notice. But I can try and see, worth a shot. Now I just have to find a spare tank to do it in haha.

Sending you a PM Josie.

[nc0gnet0]

I would just do the whole tank, prazi is pretty easy on the fish as medications go.

[Chicago Discus]

Just for information purposes its not any sponsors on Simply .......Josie

[Discus-n00b]

Sounds good to me, I believe I have some prazi left around here somewhere.

[LizStreithorst]

Only Prazi gets tapes. The other wormers have no affect on them.

[LizStreithorst]

Do you have any snails in your tanks, Matt? I have been told but don't know for sure that in fish the snail is the intermediary host. I bet Al would know.

[blueluv]

Matt,

Any chance it may be tapeworms causing an internal/nutrition issue? 48 hr prazi bath might not hurt to try?

HTHs

This would cause the color to fade?

[Discus-n00b]

Zero snails, I do have about 110 in my saltwater tank though...anyone need some? LOL

[Ryan]

This is one of the weirdest things I have ever seen. I've never seen a BD-type fade to a shade that light. IMO they don't look well but it could just be because they're so pale and the lighting in the photos makes the fins look dark. I would definitely try worming them just for the heck of it.

Do you know of anyone else who got the same fish from that or other shipments? I'd be interested to know if others experienced it. I haven't seen any threads here about BDs fading -- it seems like with all the people buying discus, someone else would have seen it and reported it had it been widespread.

[Bilbo]

It has nothing to do with hormones. Exporters haven't used hormones for years because they cause organ failure. Besides, hormones make a fish more intensly colored not less colored.

Actually some breeders still do use hormones on tropical fish to intensify the coloration before sale. The idea in this thread was that could it be that hormones were used on these Blue Diamonds in this thread before he bought them, thus resulting in the pale fish that he has now months later because of the discontinuation of hormones. Hormones are known to cause 'burn out' in fish. They bring them to their prime of life quickly and then the fish has very little left for the second half of its life. The effect is very similar to steroids in humans. I am very much into gym life; health and fitness. If a man starts cycling steroids (which are hormones btw) he will experience vast muscle increase in comparison of what he could normally produce on his own. As we say it around here... he will get his glory years now and in a hury. But there is a price to pay. You tend to burn out. You will have nothing left for when you are older. So if you are still into the gym as an older man, you sill are going to look like crap. The reason is because your body wont produce the testosterone you need because it hadn't had to for so long now. Screw steroids. They suck. Screw fish hormones. They suck. I want my fish to live a long healthy life, to it's full potential without the burnout.

[Discus-n00b]

This is one of the weirdest things I have ever seen. I've never seen a BD-type fade to a shade that light. IMO they don't look well but it could just be because they're so pale and the lighting in the photos makes the fins look dark. I would definitely try worming them just for the heck of it.

Do you know of anyone else who got the same fish from that or other shipments? I'd be interested to know if others experienced it. I haven't seen any threads here about BDs fading -- it seems like with all the people buying discus, someone else would have seen it and reported it had it been widespread.

Id like to find other experiences as well Ryan. The fish in my avatar is a BD from the same source, the owner that bought it no longer has it though so not sure where it went. It was harder to get a good photo of these. Bigger tank, more fish casting shadows on them, and darker more yellow LEDs instead of the crisp white and blue from before. Don't be to deceived by the photos folks, the tank they were in on page 1 has many different factors photography wise than the tank they are in now.

I will worm them and see what happens.

[nc0gnet0]

Update?

[Discus-n00b]

Haven't had a chance to worm yet, no real updates to report. Still swimming and acting normal, rushing the glass for food. Color still the same, eyes are still pretty bright red.

[Chicago Discus]

Im sorry but I don't think this is worms IMO you can try to deworm the fish but I don't think its going to make a dam difference I think the color will stay faded .....josie

[Bilbo]

That color will never come back. I've seen this with rams and flowerhorns. I'm calling juice on this one. On a brighter note.....I think your fish is awesome. Cool color with that red eye. Absolutely love that contrast.

[Discus-n00b]

I agree with both of you, that's why I'm in no rush.

[a volar]

I'm not sure what’s going on with these fish but they are unique, I like them.

[Poco]

I wonder what the breeder/importer has to add to this discussion, it will be good to know their point of view.

[nc0gnet0]

Im sorry but I don't think this is worms IMO you can try to deworm the fish but I don't think its going to make a dam difference I think the color will stay faded .....josie

Probably not but it is worth a shot. Tapeworms will rob the fish of vitamin b12, making the fish slightly anemic. I really dont think this is the result of hormones either, I don't think "juicing" a Blue diamond would have the same results as an orange, red, or yellow fish. For the same reason you don't see many blue color enhancer foods on the market, and the ones you do see don't work.

As I said before I hope the fish are 100% healthy, and if it they are, they are indeed special fish and matt should be very happy with them. However, the fact they have lost interests in breeding, and the color fade happened so fast leads me to beleive something might be amiss.

Rick

[TNT77]

Probably not but it is worth a shot. Tapeworms will rob the fish of vitamin b12, making the fish slightly anemic. I really dont think this is the result of hormones either, I don't think "juicing" a Blue diamond would have the same results as an orange, red, or yellow fish. For the same reason you don't see many bnlue color enhancer foods on the market, and the ones you do see don't work.

As I said before I hope the fish are 100% healthy, and if it they are, they are indeed special fish and matt should be very happy with them. However, the fact they have lost interests in breeding, and the color fade happened so fast leads me to beleive something might be amiss.

Rick
I have to agree with you Rick on the "juicing". I think there is something going on with these fish. It seems to me when comparing the beginning and now photos the male has lost alot of body mass when comparing the forehead and chin regions.

[lipadj46]

That color will never come back. I've seen this with rams and flowerhorns. I'm calling juice on this one. On a brighter note.....I think your fish is awesome. Cool color with that red eye. Absolutely love that contrast.

Pretty fired up on this whole juicing thing. I've not seen a hormone treated fish from a sponsor here since I've been on the site.

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

[Bilbo]

I believe it's hormones because hormones burn out a fish's capability to produce those lush bright colors whether blue or red. Sure red fish are going to show a more drastic change on and then off hormones but that's because their pigments come from a different source. When a fish is a youngster it has only a little color. But as it ages it develops more color. This will continue until the fish reaches it's genetic potential with other things considered like health, food, water quality, etc... But with hormones the fish can reach it's 'genetic end' a lot sooner. The same colors that would normally develop at a slower rate will develope quickly. Blues, reds, yellows, all. The same went for rams. I knew people that juiced their rams. The result was a fully colored ram at 1 inch size. I was even asked to juice my rams by a buyer so he could jack the price at that small size. I did not. I feel the same thing has happened to his discus. Blue is the natural color of his fish but yet it lost it at a very young age. Looks like hormonal burn out to me.

[TNT77]

I believe it's hormones because hormones burn out a fish's capability to produce those lush bright colors whether blue or red. Sure red fish are going to show a more drastic change on and then off hormones but that's because their pigments come from a different source. When a fish is a youngster it has only a little color. But as it ages it develops more color. This will continue until the fish reaches it's genetic potential with other things considered like health, food, water quality, etc... But with hormones the fish can reach it's hasn't 'genetic end' a lot sooner. The same colors that would normally develop at a slower rate will develope quickly. Blues, reds, yellows, all. The same went for rams. I knew people that juiced their rams. The result was a fully colored ram at 1 inch size. I was even asked to juice my rams by a buyer so he could jack the price at that small size. I did not. I feel the same thing has happened to his discus. Blue is the natural color of his fish but yet it lost it at a very young age. Looks like hormonal burn out to me.
I have gotten fish from Mike Beals & Jeffery Yang. The fish look as intense today if not more so than the day I got them. If this was from others I would have doubts about the hormone usage but given the symptoms I still would think there is something wrong other than "juicing".

[Kal-El]

I have gotten fish from Mike Beals & Jeffery Yang. The fish look as intense today if not more so than the day I got them. If this was from others I would have doubts about the hormone usage but given the symptoms I still would think there is something wrong other than "juicing".

Agreed. I've own Jeffrey's fish before and they were amazing color from the day I received them (6-7 months) to the day I sold them in order to make room for a different strain.

[Kal-El]

I have gotten fish from Mike Beals & Jeffery Yang. The fish look as intense today if not more so than the day I got them. If this was from others I would have doubts about the hormone usage but given the symptoms I still would think there is something wrong other than "juicing".

Agreed. I've own Jeffrey's fish before and they were amazing color from the day I received them (6-7 months) to the day I sold them in order to make room for a different strain.

Now I've own Kenny/Forrest fish and they have lost color over time too, but that doesn't mean they were juice. They lost color because I didn't do a great job taking care of them in my early days of keeping discus. Now a healthy diet and clean water will keep them happy and color vivid.

[Bilbo]

Fair enough. I don't know either of those people you mentioned so I don't want to flag them as doing something unethical. That's 100% not my intent. I am just going off of my past experiences and how this particular Blue Diamond in question has some really, REALLY weird stuff going on with it. That being said, this is all just my opinion so please take it worth a grain of salt. I for SURE don't want make someone feel bad when there is no proof of my suggestion. :D

[yim11]

These weren't young fish, adults, proven pair.

I'll add to the folks that have gotten fish from Jeffrey/Mike for MANY years and have fish right now from them that I've had for many years, only added color, never lost it.

I don't think tapes can be ruled out at this point at all.

[PP_GBR]

Keep your eyes on the fish. If the fish starts showing more purple hue then you'll know what ...... The best person to ask is Mr. Andrew Soh.

[blueluv]

Keep your eyes on the fish. If the fish starts showing more purple hue then you'll know what ...... The best person to ask is Mr. Andrew Soh.

What do you mean by purple hue??????

[Chicago Discus]

I have gotten fish from Mike Beals & Jeffery Yang. The fish look as intense today if not more so than the day I got them. If this was from others I would have doubts about the hormone usage but given the symptoms I still would think there is something wrong other than "juicing".

I agree I have gotten beautiful fish from mike Beals and are as colorful as the day I got them......Josie

[Discus-n00b]

All, please don't take this thread as me blaming anyone for juicing a fish. And I don't want anyone to blame a specific sponsor or exporter. Know that I'd buy again from Mike in a heartbeat. He sent me what I asked and paid for, why they changed in MY tanks and my care is the mystery. What I'm saying is when I agree with those against the worm theories is I've never personally seen this as an effect of worms or other parasites so I have to side on the side from what I have seen these effects from in other types of fish that have been hormoned. Does that mean these are? Definitely not, and like I said earlier I cannot confirm or deny one way or the other until I worm the fish and see if they rebound any and rule that out.

To those that think these fish are unhealthy. I might beg to differ. Again I see them day in and day out but I have not noticed any changes in weight. The second set of pictures are of a very unflattering angle of the fish with very harsh light from a flash casting bad shadows in some. Please take what you see with a grain of salt and know I snapped those extremely quickly to show the coloration change of the fish. Again, the weight is still there, the eyes are still blood red, the blue thats left on the fins is still a great blue....but the body is basically a white/grey. The fish are being fed a mixture of Cobalt Flakes (Hans type!), Al's worms, Bill's beefheart flakes, and they pick at some of the Tetra colorbits that are put in there for other fish.

I will worm the tank as soon as I can and post the results. Originally going into this my plan was to get rid of these fish in my efforts to downsize in order to convert a tank to African cichlids. Thats still the plan and whats eventually going to happen but this thread has me curious and I will keep these two to see what happens. I appreciate everyones help and opinions and I welcome them as we continue.

[nc0gnet0]

The coloration is not unheard of:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=76173&d=1350524004

Taken from:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?100292-SHOW-QUALITY-FROM-HAIKOON&highlight=

[Discus-n00b]

Very interesting, thanks for finding that.

[timmy82]

I have gotten fish from Mike Beals & Jeffery Yang. The fish look as intense today if not more so than the day I got them. If this was from others I would have doubts about the hormone usage but given the symptoms I still would think there is something wrong other than "juicing".

Just to get an opinion from the other side of the world, I recieve Discus that are from Jeffery Yang via Rod and I can not fault them at all. I have received many BD and other blue strains plus many many others. The Discus are alway better than expected and they are advertised a described in every case 99.9% of the time that way. They are very strong and healthy discus and have yet to have any mojor issue. Around 70% of my Discus are FTZ and I can tell you that the other 30% has not been as easy and have had quiet a few unexpected or unexplainable problems. That is why I will stay with Rod & Jeffery's Discus. Yes I understand that even the best suppliers have an odd bad one here and their that's life.

[Ryan]

Matt, is there any chance of getting a video with a digital camera or a cell phone just to give us an idea of the actual color of the fish in the tank? The whole thing is really bizarre.

I recently got some of Kenny's Spotted Ghosts and the male is a faded blue color. He looks more like a washed out BD. However, he doesn't have bright red eyes and he still has a bar through the eye and the caudal peduncle, characteristic of most ghost types. It's just so puzzling that they lost all their color.

Are the fish truly a pair? (Forgive me if this was posted elsewhere in the thread, I should probably go back and read it all more carefully.) It'd be really interesting to see what they produced, if they could produce anything.

[Allwin]

Are you feeding any color enhancer food? something like FDBW with color enhancer?

I recently noticed some reverse effect on bd's, not very sure though.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Now this is a very good thread to keep going Matt. The outcome of the color variation is intriguing. I hope you found the source of the problem if it really is a problem?