The Goon is a noob. Questions about water change and my planned tank stock.

[The Goon]

First of all, Thank you all for the wealth of experience and knowledge in this forum.

This is my first post. Please be gentle, lol.

I have been keeping freshwater fish on and off for about 16 years now, however, I have always been too intimidated by the care needed by discus to try to raise them. Until now.

I have a 120g tall, bare bottom tank. I'm running two Aquaclear 110s (with dual sponge filters along with a layer of the supplied ceramic bio filter material and a prefilter. No carbon) and have an air pump rated for 300g split between my 120 and a 37g quarantine tank. Two 250w heaters are keeping the tank around 83 degrees during the day and 81 degrees at night. My goal is to raise 8 juvies from 2.5-3.5" to full grown adults that I will likely purchase from Kenny (I'd like to start off bigger but I am limited by my budget). I plan to purchase 6 at first and acquire two more (costlier) strains down the road. I already have 18 cardinal tetras and 6 Julii corys I plan to keep as tank mates. Is this a good stock for the size of my tank?

Second issue is this: I don't have it in my daily schedule to do daily water changes. As it stands now, I do 2 45g water changes each week (Thursdays and Sundays, my days off of work). I have read that doing a daily wc is the best way to go. Unfortunately, this isn't possible for me. I could up it to three a week (I have one half day on Tuesdays I could do another wc on) or, as I have done for the last week, do two 90g wc's a week. Considering the size of the tank and stock I plan to have in the aquarium, will I regret investing in this hobby? Will the fish in good health with 2, possibly 3, wc's a week? Should they be 45g or 90g at a time? I do not plan on breeding as this is my first, yet very desired, venture into the realm of discus.

And if I may fit in one more series of questions. I am experiencing a few ph lowering incidents here and there. I was using neutral regulator from seachem until I noticed my cardinals acting strange (but it was keeping my tank around 6.8-7.0ph). As in some other cases, I suspected the neutral regulator was the culprit. I immediately switched to prime. After the switch, I experienced a major ph crash from 7.0 down to 6.2-6.4ish, although the fish seem much better with the use of prime. I tried adding crushed coral to my tank and boy did it work. It raised my ph to 7.5 over 2 days (maybe I simply used too much?). My water is extremely soft and runs 7.0ph right out of the tap. I have read that aging the water will raise my ph as well. After testing aged water (about 24 hrs) I had water that was about 7.5ph. A guy at my lfs told me that even with the coral, discus will do fine at a ph of 7.5???? Either way I go (aged water or crushed coral) it seems as though I'm gonna wind up with a ph of 7.5. Do you have any suggestions? Because my water is so incredibly soft, I know the ph will lower over time. I have read up on the discus buffer and I fear this would merely exacerbate my issue with a lowering ph. The lfs suggested using acid regulator and alkaline regulator (from seachem) together. Since the neutral regulator seemed to harm my cardinals, I'd much rather go a more organic route as opposed to chemically altering my water.

What are y'alls thoughts? Am I wasting my time and, more importantly, the lives of the fish I want to raise?

Thank you for taking the time to read my post,

Will

[strawberryblonde]

Hi Will and wecome to the forums! =)

So many things and so little of my brain to process it all these days <sigh>. I'll do my best, ok?

First up is the size of the tank. For now, if you intend to raise 3" discus to adult size, it would be better for the discus and a LOT easier for you if you can find room for a 55 gallon tank somewhere in the house. They'll do better in a smaller tank while they are growing and you'll be able to do water changes faster and easier than in the large tank. They require a lot of food as juvie/sub-adults and cleaning the leftovers out of the big tank is going to be a pain in the butt.

So if you can get your hands on a 55, just leave it bare bottom, add 2 sponge filters and one heater (temps around 83) and then age your water in between water changes. That should be all thats needed. No need to buffer the water or try to change the pH, that just leads to crashes and all sorts of problems with constant swings. Discus can thrive in nearly any pH, so long as it remains fairly constant.

To keep the pH constant, plan to do a water change every other day. The pH won't have time to shift much in 48 hours so long as its aged first. I know that sounds like a large time commitment to do them every other day while the discus are still growing, but if you use 2 python siphons (one to drain and use the other to vacuum the bottom, then also to drain) it takes about 10 minutes to drain the tank and 10 minutes to fill it from the aging barrel. (the length of time to fill it will depend on the pump you use)

When you drain the tank, take a minute to wipe down the sides and bottom of the tank. I use a scrubbie for that job. Just be sure that it's made of just plain plastic and hasn't been treated with any anti-fungus or mold chemicals. Once the wipe down is done, siphon the bottom really well, finish draining it to about 2 inches of water...the discus will be laying flat, then turn on your pump and fill 'er up. Done and finished in 20 minutes or less.

Once the discus reach 5" - 6" you can safely move them to the 120. At that point they will still need about 3 feedings per day and you should be able to get away with 3 water changes per week of about 80% each time.

They'll continue growing well into their 2nd year of life, so just commit to doing those water changes for a good long time. Once they reach 2 years of age you can cut back a little more on the water changes so long as the pH doesn't start crashing on you.

So to sum it all up: No coral, no buffer, no pH changing anything. Just a smaller tank, several feedings per day, age the water between water changes and do the water changes every other day till they go into the big tank.

Oh and be sure to purchase seeded sponge filters from Kenny when you purchase the discus. They'll be all ready to go straight into the 55 and the discus won't have to experience a mini cycle. =)

[a volar]

Welcome Will.......... Toni got everything cover for you.

[The Goon]

Thank you for the welcomes.

Toni, You not only answered my questions but, gave me additional advice. Seems like the brain is working great :D

It breaks my heart a little to break down my 120g. I don't really have the time or space for 3 aquariums. I must go with the advice of the pros though.

I've had my eye on led lighting systems. It just so happens that a major pet store chain has a 55g w/leds. Guess I'll wait for it to go on sale.

I realize it will be many months before this is a concern but, will I be able to keep 6-8 4-5" discus in the 55g with 18 cardinals and 6 julliis? Seems like that is a going to be a bit crowded.

Oh, and I did invest in a 700gph pond pump. A huge thank you to whomever invented them. It makes my life soo much easier!

Would it be better to "jump start" the 55g by putting in one of my aquaclears and remove it once the sponge filters build up bacteria or should I start cycling the tank from scratch? Or were you suggesting that I cycle the tank with Kenny's sponges as opposed to putting them in the tank when the discus arrive?

Thanks again y'all,

Will

[strawberryblonde]

Hi again Will,

You can definitely move the discus up to the 120 once they reach adult sizes, so don't totally give up on it. They just will be wanting a smaller space for growing them out.

For the 55, if you purchase the seeded sponges from Kenny you won't need to cycle the tank ahead of time. You'll just put them into the tank the same day as the fish and the tank will be instantly cycled. It is SO easy that way.

The other option is to cycle it ahead of time, but to be safe, you'd need to sterilize your current filter and then start the cycle all over again using pure ammonia, and that would take a couple of weeks to complete before you could add fish.

I love big pond pumps! On days when I'm in a huge hurry to get my big tank drained I toss in my pump and let it pump out to the garden, then siphon out the crud with my python while the pump is doing its thing. Total time to empty the tank... 5 - 6 minutes! I then use the python from my laundry room sink for the refill, and hook the pump to my kitchen sink. Total refill time... 8 minutes. The whole thing is done and I'm on my way out the door for the evening in about 20 minutes.

I should mention that I don't age my water, but that it's recommended for most discus keepers. In my case, my water is so hard and has such a high pH that there's no shift in the pH with aging, and my discus have never had micro bubble problems.

[Herbicidal]

I'm currently growing out some smaller guys from Kenny in a 30 gallon. I use an automatic fish feeder filled with freeze dried black worms from Al. I tear the cubes into fragments. It's set for twice a day feedings while I'm at work. Of course I feed the Discus before I go to work, sometimes twice and again after I return home, sometimes twice. I do daily water changes of 80%+. Here's the feeder I use. I fill it with food once a week and it sits perfectly on top of the lid of my Aqua Clear HOB filter. I just move the feeder forward so the opening is over open water. Works great! The Discus now swim below it anticipating feeding time. :)

http://www.petmountain.com/photos/product/giant/114420S519535/-/aquarium-fish-feeder.jpg

[The Goon]

Thank you again for the reply.

That sounds pretty awesome.

I bought a 60g tall tank with the stand for less than $284 at a place that rhymes with Mets cart. The dimensions are virtually the same as the 55, just a couple inches taller. They currently have them at 25% off. Spent my discus fund but, oh well, its critical to have the right equipment before you start the job. I'll work on the python next. Honestly, I never really thought about putting the pump in the aquarium to drain it. Great suggestion.

I'm guessing your recommending not having the cardinals and coriis in the same tank I'm growing out the discus in? I only ask because I have read that a school of cardinals can help the discus to be less skittish, therefore, less stressed. I want them to feel as comfortable as they can from day one, ya know :)

Thank you again,

Will

[The Goon]

Sweet. Thanks for the info Herb. I've been thinking about an automatic feeder.

Thanks again,

Will

[strawberryblonde]

It won't hurt to put the card and cories into the tank since it's a 60g. It's totally up to you which way you want to go. Since you're buying discus from a reputable dealer you shouldn't have to worry too much about skittish behavior from them even without the cards.

I purchased from Discus Hans and received discus from John's Discus. Both groups were right up front and acting sassy within a couple of days of arrival. In fact, the ones from John's Discus were begging for food within an hour of landing in my tank! I had to tell them no and try to ignore all the wriggling and pressing against the glass till the next morning. LOL

[The Goon]

O wow, that's pretty groovy.

I'll bet it was hard to ignore your new babies, lol. I'm sure I'll haft to ignore the urge to keep my nose firmly affixed to the tank's glass when I can get them, lol.

Thank you again for all your help. I couldn't have wished for more,

Will

[strawberryblonde]

LOL, I had a sudden picture in my head of you with your nose pressed against the glass like a kid in a candy store.

I actually had to talk to John himself and he had to insist that I not feed them immediately! They were just so adorable all wriggly and sashaying in front of the tank to get my attention.

Oh wait, here's a pic of them from that afternoon. This is gonna be you before you know it...trying to resist those begging faces and flapping fins.

[The Goon]

Indeed I will be a (30yr old) kid in a candy store!

That is consistant with what I've read. To wait till the following day for the first feeding. I'm always glad to have someone confirm what I've read.

Those are some beautiful discus. What strain are they? I want one of the yellow/white patterned discus. I saw one I liked on Mac's discus but it was a bit too rich for my blood.

Thank you again,

Will

[strawberryblonde]

Those are Golden Sunshines. John's Discus sells them, he's a sponsor here on the forums so you can check him out and head to his website to see what his prices are like. Don't forget to check out the other sponsors too! They have some gorgeous strains and prices are quite reasonable. I love my discus from Discus Hans, and Kenny's are breathtaking too. I can't chatter about the rest because I don't own any...yet. LOL

[The Goon]

Groovy. Thank you Toni,

Will

[Spawnstar]

What was the reason for not feeding the discus immediately?

[strawberryblonde]

What was the reason for not feeding the discus immediately?

They are mildly sedated for air travel in addition to being stressed from sitting in dark bag, in a box that gets shaken around. It takes about 24 hours normally for them to perk up and for the gastrointestinal system to start working efficiently again.

For the most part, any food added to the tank in the first 24 hours is going to just settle on the bottom of the tank and sit there decomposing.

I'm pretty sure that mine would have happily eaten just as soon as they hit the tank, but it was safer to wait it out and feed the next day.

[The Goon]

Hi there Spawnstar,

Sry for the delayed response. I was hoping someone with more discus experience would chime in but, I'll tell ya what I've been told and read.

The bottom line is that the fish are gonna be stressed. Its not as bad when you get them from a lfs 10 minutes from your house as opposed to having them shipped to your doorstep. Either way though, your new fish are going to be stressed. Stress can lead to immune system problems as well as reduced functioning of the fish's organs. In this case you don't want to add more stress to them by adding more of a workload to the fishes stomach, digestive tract, heart etc..

Secondly, if they were overnighted to your doorstep, odds are their swim bladders are going to be thrown off. Add this to the disorientation of being plucked from their home, taken out of the water, thrown into a small bag, flown, all the while being jostled around by workers that don't really care about being gentle with your fish, yea, they need a little time to unwind. A little time to bounce back from all that.

Third, you have plucked them from an environment they were (presumably) comfortable and adjusted to. Now, just like when you move, they need a little time to get used to their new surroundings.

Again, its all about minimizing stress. The less stress, the healthier the fish. We all want them to be as healthy and as happy as they can be, right?

Pro's, please chime in on this one. I know there are dissenting opinions on this matter. Call bs if some of my points are wrong, fill in what I've left out, please.

Thanks again,

Will

[The Goon]

Hey there,

Sorry Toni, for some reason, I didn't see your reply to Spawnstar's question. I certainly did not mean to imply anything about you not knowing what your doing. Your the pro. As I said in the thread's title "the goon is a noob", lol.

Will

[Spawnstar]

Thanks to both of you!

[The Goon]

No worries man,

Will

[strawberryblonde]

Tis ok Goon, I just figured that you hadn't seen my post, and it's always good to have more than one response to a question! =)

[The Goon]

Tis ok Goon, I just figured that you hadn't seen my post, and it's always good to have more than one response to a question! =)

:D

[The Goon]

....So I came home for a break from work to feed my fish and it turns out that the 60g I bought has a half moon crack going down about 1/3 from the top of the tank with another crack extending from it which goes down to about the halfway point of the tank...

...about 20g of water leaked out. I called the place that rhymes with mets cart and they won't do anything about it. I now have to wait until Monday to contact marineland to see if they will cover it under the warranty....

...So weird. I have had so many tanks over the years and this is the first to break. Some, I had for several years and this one breaks after only a couple months, 48hrs after I put fish in it? ***...

[Gene]

A place that rhymes with mets cart... haha

[2_Basic]

OH man... that really sucks :(

[The Goon]

Hey all,

For anyone interested, I did contact Marineland about the cracked tank. They are going to issue me a refund check for the full amount minus taxes. Score one for Marineland!

Thanks,

Will

[a volar]

That's a really great news!