Discus planted tank with co2 pro system

[Alireza]

Hi guys,
Pls help. I recently add co2 to my 60 gallon planted discus tank. As I started , my two adult discus (not Hans) went to die. I stopped co2 , changed water then start again, around 2 bpm and this time I reduced diffuser reactor to lowest option. Co2 Indicator did not show any co2 level at all, it's blue , so I don't know why discus did so bad?? Was that related with diffuser?

[warblad79]

It's a bad idea to play around with c02 and discus.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

When I started my setup I was only doing 1 bubble per sec. Then over about 3 to 4 weeks I increased it to 2bps with no issues at all. Are you sure all equipment was working properly? No leaks?

[Skip]

It's a bad idea to play around with c02 and discus.

Yep

[rbarn]

It's a bad idea to play around with c02 and discus......... if you dont know what you are doing

Fixed it for you.

Injecting Co2 lowers pH. If you lower pH too quickly is can strip the slime coat off the fish, and this will kill a discus very quickly. You can also suffocate the fish if you inject too much Co2. Color changing "drop checkers" are all but useless in my opinion.

If you are going to inject Co2 you need to do it right. You need to determine your KH and insure it is stable, then you need to inject Co2 with a a pH controller and target the proper pH for your water's KH and you need to make the adjustments in pH through Co2 injection over weeks, not a single day.

[Chad Hughes]

Fixed it for you.

Injecting Co2 lowers pH. If you lower pH too quickly is can strip the slime coat off the fish, and this will kill a discus very quickly.

If you are going to inject Co2 you need to do it right. You need to determine your KH and insure it is stable, then you need to inject Co2 with a a pH controller and target the proper pH for your water's KH and you need to make the adjustments in pH through Co2 injection over weeks, not a single day.

Now THIS is excellent advice! There is absolutely nothing wrong with using CO2 with discus. You just need to know how to do it.

[Alireza]

Fixed it for you.

Injecting Co2 lowers pH. If you lower pH too quickly is can strip the slime coat off the fish, and this will kill a discus very quickly. You can also suffocate the fish if you inject too much Co2. Color changing "drop checkers" are all but useless in my opinion.

If you are going to inject Co2 you need to do it right. You need to determine your KH and insure it is stable, then you need to inject Co2 with a a pH controller and target the proper pH for your water's KH and you need to make the adjustments in pH through Co2 injection over weeks, not a single day.

Thx for quick response guys. I have mc122 too but one of the guy in LFS suggested me to connect co2 to light timer instead of PH reader. He said if there is any problem with that, at least it's 8 hours not 24/7 which PH reader will be on. I'm completely confused. He said, I don't need co2 be on all day so I can save while it's gonna be too dangerous when I use PH reader because co2 will work till PH adjust at the point that I want, but instead , I can use timer and just goes onanistic off with my lights. Last night I reduced diffuser to minimum and everything went fine for 2 hours. I don't really know relations between bubble counter and diffuser! I'm trying to search but I couldn't find out yet. I have Red Sea co2 pro with solenoid and diffuser reactor.

[Alireza]

Thx for quick response guys. I have mc122 too but one of the guy in LFS suggested me to connect co2 to light timer instead of PH reader. He said if there is any problem with that, at least it's 8 hours not 24/7 which PH reader will be on. I'm completely confused. He said, I don't need co2 be on all day so I can save while it's gonna be too dangerous when I use PH reader because co2 will work till PH adjust at the point that I want, but instead , I can use timer and just goes onanistic off with my lights. Last night I reduced diffuser to minimum and everything went fine for 2 hours. I don't really know relations between bubble counter and diffuser! I'm trying to search but I couldn't find out yet. I have Red Sea co2 pro with solenoid and diffuser reactor.

[rbarn]

You are being fed lots of bad information.

KH + Co2 = pH.
A controller will turn the Co2 on and off to maintain a certain pH level. It does not run 24/7. It comes on only when it needs to be on.
If you have fluctuating Co2 levels by just putting it on a timer with the lights then you will have fluctuating pH, and fish hate this.

You set the ph level you want to maintain by testing for your water's KH, then setting the proper pH for the proper Co2 concentration
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MOTNQWz_Hf0/TE696auiLEI/AAAAAAAAAEU/Ubjimro2HTQ/s1600/co2.jpg

Try this forum for information
http://www.barrreport.com/forumdisplay.php/6-CO2-Enrichment

[-gb-]

As several here have said the only way to correctly run Co2 is with a controller and a PH probe. I personally use Apex controllers. Here is a link: http://www.neptunesystems.com/products/apex-controllers/

Running Co2 isn't cheap but your plants will love it and your fish will benefit of having a very stable PH.

[rbarn]

There are really couple of schools of thought on how to control Co2.

Some very smart and informed people like Tom Barr will tell you to dial in Co2 diffusion rate with a pH meter, but not to worry about trying to "control" it exactly. And he will turn it off at night and the tank will go through pH swings from 8.0 at night to 6.8 during the day with Co2 on.

Others like myself prefer to control the pH with constant Co2 injection and everything is run by controller.

I think the 1st method works well in tanks where the plants are the main focus and the fish are more of an add-on. When dealing with ultra sensitive fish like Discus it is my opinion that pH should be stabilized as much as possible, and Co2 concentrations kept on the weaker side of what the plants would prefer, but allows the fish to breathe easier.

[AngryBird]

interesting and informative thread so far :)

[discuspaul]

Yes, very good advice here.
This is why it is not recommended to use pressurized CO2 in a discus tank, unless and until the user is both very well familiar with keeping discus, as well as operating a CO2 system with the right equipment to properly control water conditions, particularly pH.

[Alireza]

@rbarn, tnx a lot the chart is so helpful and you are right about unstable PH but if I set my ph controller, how do I know about amount of co2 that pump in the tank? I don't know if I can explain. For example, Los Angeles tap PH is around 7.8 to 7.9. , my concern is co2 so if I set PH to 7.4 it could pump more co2 to set PH at that level, am I right? If yes, it could be dangerous for fish. Right now, I set needle valve around 1.4 bpm. After 90 minutes, discus look fine to me.i changed reactor to simple glass diffuser and there is no problem yet. I will do your suggestion because I already have controller.i just want to make sure what PH I have to set on conroller? 7.4? Or 7.6? Which one is better for fish and plants?? So confusing. I checked another aquarium store today and the owner simply said , he has no idea....lol.

[dkeef]

i use ph controller set at 6.8-6.9 (KH is 6 with new WC and around 4 a week later) and i also have solenoid regulator on timer to turn on with light on and off with light off. when co2 is off, ph is around 7.1-7.2
this is a pretty stable ph swing that i can run this way right?

my priority is discus but without co2 in my size tank, plants would suffer greatly.
there is a balance point one can use for both plants and discus.

my question is even tho ph is stable, can co2 overdose occur with ph controller? (and also with co2 off at night w/ timer)
Under what scenario can this occur?

[lipadj46]

You are being fed lots of bad information.

KH + Co2 = pH.
A controller will turn the Co2 on and off to maintain a certain pH level. It does not run 24/7. It comes on only when it needs to be on.
If you have fluctuating Co2 levels by just putting it on a timer with the lights then you will have fluctuating pH, and fish hate this.

You set the ph level you want to maintain by testing for your water's KH, then setting the proper pH for the proper Co2 concentration
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MOTNQWz_Hf0/TE696auiLEI/AAAAAAAAAEU/Ubjimro2HTQ/s1600/co2.jpg

Try this forum for information
http://www.barrreport.com/forumdisplay.php/6-CO2-Enrichment

Using this chart with tank water can be at best a rough estimate. You can get a drop checker and make a 4 dKh solution with baking soda and use the bromthymol blue from an api pH test. Slowly increase you pH until the drop checker turns a nice green color (use the api color chart to target pH=6.8), then set your pH controller to the pH the tank water is at this CO2 concentration.

[rbarn]

@rbarn, tnx a lot the chart is so helpful and you are right about unstable PH but if I set my ph controller, how do I know about amount of co2 that pump in the tank? I don't know if I can explain. For example, Los Angeles tap PH is around 7.8 to 7.9. , my concern is co2 so if I set PH to 7.4 it could pump more co2 to set PH at that level, am I right? If yes, it could be dangerous for fish. Right now, I set needle valve around 1.4 bpm. After 90 minutes, discus look fine to me.i changed reactor to simple glass diffuser and there is no problem yet. I will do your suggestion because I already have controller.i just want to make sure what PH I have to set on conroller? 7.4? Or 7.6? Which one is better for fish and plants?? So confusing. I checked another aquarium store today and the owner simply said , he has no idea....lol.

You need to test your water for the KH (not GH) hardness. Once you know your water's KH you can set the pH controller to hold a pH level that corresponds with the proper Co2 level given in the graph above.

The numbers in the center of the graph are for Co2 in ppm. The green shaded boxes are the "goldilocks zone" of enough Co2 to keep plants happy, but not so much you're going to gas your fish. 15-30ppm seems to be the general rule of thumb.

(rough example - your numbers will be different most likely)
So you test your water's KH and get "6". So you go to the graph, find "6" on the KH scale and follow the boxes over to the green boxes and see that 18ppm Co2 will give you a pH of 7.0. Now you go to your pH controller that will turn the Co2 solenoid on/off and set it it hold 7.0pH. Thats it.

Beyond that you can start lowering pH very slowly to see if the plants like even more Co2 and if the fish can tolerate it. Most tanks seem to end up somewhere between 6.5 and 6.8 pH depending on KH hardness.




Using this chart with tank water can be at best a rough estimate. You can get a drop checker and make a 4 dKh solution with baking soda and use the bromthymol blue from an api pH test. Slowly increase you pH until the drop checker turns a nice green color (use the api color chart to target pH=6.8), then set your pH controller to the pH the tank water is at this CO2 concentration.

Correct, even drop checkers are only going to get you a rough estimate. the key is start on what you know to be the safe side of that estimate, then slowly start increasing Co2 concentrations while carefully watching plants and fish. And by slowly I mean over days and weeks of very minor adjustments at a time.





my question is even tho ph is stable, can co2 overdose occur with ph controller? (and also with co2 off at night w/ timer)
Under what scenario can this occur?

If you have a cheaper single stage regulator you can get an "end of bottle dump". Basically what happens is the pressure falls too low in the Co2 bottle for the regulator to regulate and it opens the valve fully and your bubble count goes from 1-2 per second to full flow. This will suffocate the fish in short order.

The fix is to buy a quality two stage regulator which wont do that. They cost more, but worth it in the long run.

Also, if you are not reading your KH right or your pH probe is out of calibration, then you could overdose Co2. that's why you always want to be testing water, calibrating probes and making small changes when you do change something.

[dkeef]

How about this. If your kh is 6 after wc but then gradually drops then what does it mean and what do u do then?
I noticed that my kh starts at 6 but then keeps dropping and ive seen it drop to 2 without wc.
But after a week from wc, kh goes from 6 to 3-4.

[Alireza]

Tnx so much. I check KH and it is 5 drops. As you wrote , the chart gives 15 for PH 7. Now, how many buble per minute is going to give me PH7 ? As API instruction, 0-3 drop is great for discus while mine is 5. Pls let me what should I do now?

[Alireza]

Tnx so much rbarn. I check KH and it is 5 drops. As you wrote , the chart gives 15 for PH 7. Now, how many buble per minute is going to give me PH7 ? As API instruction, 0-3 drop is great for discus while mine is 5. Pls let me what should I do now?

[dkeef]

There is no way to know how many bps is needed. U just have to play with it.
Thats why guys here recommend ph controller cuz u can turn on flow and it will stop when desired ph is reached.
With discus i would definitely get a ph controller. Or set it so low or increase bps in small amounts over weeks.

[Alireza]

I already have it dkeef. I put it on 7.0 but still look like I do have some problem. I test KH and I need to now what I have to do now? Chart says 15 but what is that?

[dkeef]

means u have 15ppm of Co2.
depending on what kind of plants u have, your needed co2 level will vary.
most plant will do ok but some like HC or capets will need more.
they say these days that optimum co2 is 30ppm.
but i keep mine around 20ppm and most do fine. id rather keep it lower for discus. but some delicate ones arent doing too well. (ammania gracilis, HCs)

but if u wanna crank up CO2 more then set the PH at 6.7-6.8
if after u change the setting of ph controller to 6.8 but u dont see it go down to that level, then that means u need to increase the BPS of co2 more.

[lipadj46]

I already have it dkeef. I put it on 7.0 but still look like I do have some problem. I test KH and I need to now what I have to do now? Chart says 15 but what is that?

it means you may have a ppm of 15 (which is still low for a high light tank) but it could be much lower depending on your water. I would get a drop checker and distilled water and make a 4 dKh solution with baking soda and use that to see where you are at. A drop checker is not perfect but a CO2 probe is very expensive. You want your CO2 as high as possible with no visible discomfort to the fish, it may take a while to dial it in but once you get experience you can use your plants and fish to know if your CO2 is right.

[dkeef]

You can buy used ph controller(w/ probe) from $50-70. new is around $100. its worth it.

Newest one:
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/milwaukee-mc122-ph-controller.html

this is older version that i have. works great:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Milwaukee-sms122-PH-Meter-Controller-/200924653579?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec80ae80b

[Alireza]

I have PH controller. New Milwaukee mc122 and I set PH on 7.0. I'm afraid if I set on 6.8 ,discus going to die!

[rbarn]

I have PH controller. New Milwaukee mc122 and I set PH on 7.0. I'm afraid if I set on 6.8 ,discus going to die!

Slow changes. Patience.

Set it at 7.0 .... see how the plants and fish do for 4-5 days
Set it at 6.95 .... see how the plants and fish do for 4-5 days
Set it at 6.9 ...... ect.
ect. ect.

[Alireza]

Thank you guys for your help! But u cannot believe this. After all I did, I just found out Red Sea needle valve is not stable at all. I'm gonna return it back and trying to get other regulator kit. With research on line I found these two ones, Milwaukee CO2 Regulator w/Solenoid Valve, MA957 AND Premium AQUATEK CO2 Regulator with Integrated COOL TOUCH Solenoid R-76-1 .both are so cheaper than Red Sea delux. I'm wondering if you are using them or if you have better suggestion for me. Pls pls heil ASAP. I have to do it so fast.

[rbarn]

It does not need to stable if you are using a pH controller to turn it on and off as needed.
I have always used the Milwaukee regulator myself with good success, had one fail, but they were good about replacing it.

If you want the best of the best use a Victor VTS 250A 2-stage regulator with anyone's solenoid and needle valve with a milwaukee controller

[Mando]

Bringing this back from the dead since there is a lot of talk about planted tank and discus across multiple threads right now. This thread has very informative info. Do you guys feel anything has changed? or is this info still valid?

Edit: even better, I just learned my apex system does what the milwaukee ph controller does.

[Filip]

Bringing this back from the dead since there is a lot of talk about planted tank and discus across multiple threads right now. This thread has very informative info. Do you guys feel anything has changed? or is this info still valid?

Edit: even better, I just learned my apex system does what the milwaukee ph controller does.

You have revived a very informative thread Mando .
Kudos for your search and investigating abilities .
I also tend to belive that 24/7 injection of CO2 with PH controller is the safest way to inject Co2 in a discus tank .

[planter]

Great idea. Lots of useful info here on this thread. I'm in the process of fine tuning my CO2 with a controller right now.

[Mando]

Great idea. Lots of useful info here on this thread. I'm in the process of fine tuning my CO2 with a controller right now.

Let us know how it goes! You can use the chart in here for the tuning.