Hekel Altums

[amyers]

I got these three fishes from David of Angelfish USA last month. He said they are called Hekel Altums and are some kind of mutation of the original Altums that his supplier Tony Tan is working with. He said they are the only ones in the USA at present and has challenged me to grow them out as large as possible with the mainly live and frozen blackworm diet that I feed my fish. They are about a year old he said and are presently 6 inches tall. I thought I should share their pictures with you all and keep you updated as time goes by on their progress. I am really a discus person but there is something about these angels I like. Any technical questions on these I will have to ask David to help answer since my knowledge on these is limited.

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee401/amyers64/photo167_zps45c9d2f5.jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/amyers64/media/photo167_zps45c9d2f5.jpg.html)

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee401/amyers64/photo168_zps53d51a6b.jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/amyers64/media/photo168_zps53d51a6b.jpg.html)

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee401/amyers64/photo166_zpsf999a176.jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/amyers64/media/photo166_zpsf999a176.jpg.html)

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee401/amyers64/photo169_zps07806be9.jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/amyers64/media/photo169_zps07806be9.jpg.html)

[CrazyAngels]

Amyers, I love those and I can't wait to see them in a few months. There is something that does bother me though, in one of your pictures I see you you have a fancy goldfish with them. I would not have it with them as goldfish are notoriously dirty and I would hate to loose those angels. Also the temp in the tank of the angels is a lot warmer than that goldfish should be at I would think. I keep all my angels at same temp as discus..

Best of luck growing them out.

[amyers]

Thanks George, The goldfish is an Oranda that I bought last month also, from what I read that type can withstand high temperatures. The tank is a 75gal being kept at 84 degrees F. It's an experiment really, I've noticed that goldfish does a very good job at digging into gravel and cleaning up eaten food between the gravel, better than the Corys, which I do have also, so I put one in one of my tanks to see what happens. So far I'ts working, in this tank I don't see any bits of pellets and other uneaten food when vacuuming. I know its odd but its just an experiment, if it isn't working out he will be taken out. If it does well, the other tanks will probably see one.

[plecocicho]

They look like domesticated rio negro altum aka the real pterophyllum scalare. Our domestic angelfish come from a different, probably whitewater species,which is also smaller than the real scalare

[amyers]

They look like domesticated rio negro altum aka the real pterophyllum scalare. Our domestic angelfish come from a different, probably whitewater species,which is also smaller than the real scalare

OOOPS ! I'm stumped here, I will have to ask David to clarify this for us and tell us more about these.

[fredyx]

+1 about the pterophyllum scalare idea they miss the typical nose of the altums 100% sure

[Moon]

The notch at the nose is missing but they do have some Altum characteristics. My take is that these are hybrid Altum/Scalare

[lipadj46]

Nice fish regardless with nice dark bars and the heckel like lighter center bar

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

[eric88]

exciting new strain for angelsB-)

Sent from my LT15a using Tapatalk 2

[Ryan]

The barring pattern is cool, but something is throwing me off about their body shape. They do not feel like typical angels to me. I've never known angel species to hybridize in aquariums but these do appear to be some kind of hybrid. The bars scream P. altum but the body shape and shorter profile/fins suggest otherwise.

[angelfishusa]

They look like domesticated rio negro altum aka the real pterophyllum scalare. Our domestic angelfish come from a different, probably whitewater species,which is also smaller than the real scalare
They are 100% Orinoco Altum Angelfish. Parents wild which make them F1. Tony had 4 pairs of altums which produced close to 30,000 fry in 1 1/2 years for him. 2 pairs were very productive. These 2 pairs always produced some fry missing the 3rd bar completely. And the last 2-3 spawns almost 100% were missing the 3rd bar. He has over 200 of these approaching breeding age now. And we will see what they produce. I am guessing will product normal bar altum, but Jeffrey Tan thinks it is a complex gene in the fish.

[nikond70s]

these are prolly the culls from the bunch or the undesireable ones. or the results of massive captive breeding. appearance wise. only true altum traits i see from these guys are the thick bars that only altums have and that neon blue-ish hue on their head. besides the thick bars they look like domestics. or maybe it was F1-2 altums x with domestics. thus, that domestic shape with the altum bars. and at 1 year of age these guys are small for altums. or just stunted altums. and im sure these are limited cuz nobody has the desired to import them.

[eric88]

looks altum step into discus path, getting more demostic strain now.

Tony should be written in bio history for his such contribute :thumbup:

btw: my dream right now is to get a breeding pair altums!!!

Sent from my LT15a using Tapatalk 2

[angelfishusa]

these are prolly the culls from the bunch or the undesireable ones. or the results of massive captive breeding. appearance wise. only true altum traits i see from these guys are the thick bars that only altums have and that neon blue-ish hue on their head. besides the thick bars they look like domestics. or maybe it was F1-2 altums x with domestics. thus, that domestic shape with the altum bars. and at 1 year of age these guys are small for altums. or just stunted altums. and im sure these are limited cuz nobody has the desired to import them. nope not rejects. and not cross. 100% true wild altum parents.

[angelfishusa]

looks altum step into discus path, getting more demostic strain now.

Tony should be written in bio history for his such contribute :thumbup:

btw: my dream right now is to get a breeding pair altums!!!

Sent from my LT15a using Tapatalk 2
I've been waiting close to 2 1/2 years. I have 44 adults. some about 16-17" in height. 7 confirmed pairs. All tony F1 Altums. With the tropical storm off our coast, I am finally hoping for my first 2 spawns tomorrow. Last night both male and female tubes started dropping. I have my fingers crossed! :)

[CrazyAngels]

I've been waiting close to 2 1/2 years. I have 44 adults. some about 16-17" in height. 7 confirmed pairs. All tony F1 Altums. With the tropical storm off our coast, I am finally hoping for my first 2 spawns tomorrow. Last night both male and female tubes started dropping. I have my fingers crossed! :)


Best of luck David, hope they do spawn for you. Keep us posted and hope storm stays away from you guys. Wish you well my friend.

[Underwater Oasis]

I just ordered a few of these for myself, they are nice looking fish!
Anthony

[plecocicho]

Those are in no shape and form real altums. Here is a true altum:
http://www.newoac.com/images/altumscalar.jpg

[angelfishusa]

Those are in no shape and form real altums. Here is a true altum:
http://www.newoac.com/images/altumscalar.jpgit is 100% real altum. Parents are wild imports. I ahve seen them. There will always be people that say no. but they are 100% real. We only try to contribute with good information to the hobby. There are different altums. from different regions. I would suggest that you study that before making a comment like that.
Have a nice day

[Underwater Oasis]

Those heckel altums are about a 6-10 months older then the altum you are showing here... they are starting to get the adult body shape. You can't compare that photo to heckel altum photo unless they were the same age.
Anthony

[angelfishusa]

Best of luck David, hope they do spawn for you. Keep us posted and hope storm stays away from you guys. Wish you well my friend.still expecting 2 spawns any day now. tubes are 1/2 dropped (maybe mroe) and the are getting super aggressive!

[angelfishusa]

Those heckel altums are about a 6-10 months older then the altum you are showing here... they are starting to get the adult body shape. You can't compare that photo to heckel altum photo unless they were the same age.
Anthonyand it's also a different type of Altum than what you and I have.

[Discus-n00b]

I can fully believe they are from Altum parents. If they are missing a bar isn't it plausible that their body shape and whatever else could be different too? I believe so. I'm not a huge fan of them visually personally, missing that bar makes it look weird to me but by no means are they a bad looking fish.

David, good luck to you. I hope you have great success breeding. Having a supplier of tank bred/raised Altums (even F2) would be outstanding. Every time I look at my wild angels it makes me want more and more.

[angelfishusa]

I can fully believe they are from Altum parents. If they are missing a bar isn't it plausible that their body shape and whatever else could be different too? I believe so. I'm not a huge fan of them visually personally, missing that bar makes it look weird to me but by no means are they a bad looking fish.

David, good luck to you. I hope you have great success breeding. Having a supplier of tank bred/raised Altums (even F2) would be outstanding. Every time I look at my wild angels it makes me want more and more. None of mine are missing the bar, and mine have much better shape. I had those for a while and just stuck them in a tank and never really worked with them. they only doubled in size in a year and should have been probably 50% larger. Mine are 14 to 17" tall now. They look much different but came from the same parents. At the end for some reason 100% of the fry were without the back bar. Now Jeffrey and tony will breed those to see what happens with the fry. should be interesting. they are a conversation fish though! :)

[plecocicho]

Its not about missing bar, its about mouthpart. Upturned mouth is specific for altum angel for all age classes beside fry of course.http://www.akwarium.pl/images/stories/bleher/n.khardina.jpg
the only other option of this fosh being the real altums are that those are mutants (with deformed mouth acording to real altums of course)

[Discus-n00b]

My SI angels which are Pterophyllum scalare have upturned noses/mouths. And thats what I was saying, its exactly that....a mutation, and I was saying the missing bar is a mutation. Mutations arn't always bad. Who knows, these could throw "normal" looking Altums when bred much like discus throwbacks not looking like the strain name suggests but carrying the genes. To g after these so hard as not real altums is a bit silly IMO, that's all.

[fredyx]

http://imageshack.us/a/img706/2509/imag1264.jpg

My upturned nose scalare:)


What really matters is that you like and enjoy your fishes good luck with them!!

Enviado desde mi Xoom usando Tapatalk 2

[plecocicho]

Fredyx yours are "Peru altums", not a real altum and probably not a common angelfish but the other undescribed species. What is now known as a Pterophyllum scalare are probably quite a few species including coomon angelfish, the real one(rio negro altum), peru altum, mancapuras, etc.

[fredyx]

Fredyx yours are "Peru altums", not a real altum and probably not a common angelfish but the other undescribed species. What is now known as a Pterophyllum scalare are probably quite a few species including coomon angelfish, the real one(rio negro altum), peru altum, mancapuras, etc.

I know that , they are wild ones, not true altum but I love them anyway :):)

Enviado desde mi Xoom usando Tapatalk 2

[angelfishusa]

from the same parents. My F1 Altums any comments?
HTTP://www.angelfishusa.net/fish_images/altum-pair.jpg

[Ken]

Very nice fish

[angelfishusa]

Very nice fishThanks. that's one of 7 confirmed pairs so far out of 44 adults.
expecting my first spawn tonight. But they've let me down a few times already.
David

[a volar]

Nice altums David..... Put me in the list for fry.

[angelfishusa]

Nice altums David..... Put me in the list for fry.Thanks. I wouldn't have them or have met Jeffrey and Tony if it wasn't for Kraig!

[plecocicho]

David, those f1 LOOK like altum offspring. I would never guessed the first one were their siblings, they have nothing in common.

[fredyx]

Wow, there's a huge difference with those in the first picture!!:o

[angelfishusa]

Its not about missing bar, its about mouthpart. Upturned mouth is specific for altum angel for all age classes beside fry of course.http://www.akwarium.pl/images/stories/bleher/n.khardina.jpg
the only other option of this fosh being the real altums are that those are mutants (with deformed mouth acording to real altums of course)I know what you are saying, and that is my fault for not taking very good care of these. they arrived to me and I was planning on growing them out work with on a certain project. I was too busy with other projects and did not take proper care of them at all. I am so busy working with my other 44 adults, and new strains of the phippine blue angels, I just left them in a small tank for a year, with neglect. As far as not looking like true altums, they would have except for the bars. You as well as I know that captive breeding has many different effects on wild angelfish. Environment plays a big roll in their looks and changes from generation to generation. In any event, I do believe that you will agree that my 44 adult altums are true altums. i know this 100% for a fact. and I'm sure thru the generations F2, F3, F4 they will change a lot. I have been breeding and raising angelfish for over 40 years now. And I have seen all sorts of strange developments in working with some wilds and even domestics. That is why I continually cross back to wilds when possible to keep my stock as close as possible to the original beautiful Angelfish I knew from the 60's and 70's!

[angelfishusa]

David, those f1 LOOK like altum offspring. I would never guessed the first one were their siblings, they have nothing in common.Great, so you agree. I have 44 all identical to those. I took very good care of them, fed them great, water changes. Took better care of them than my children! ha. In fact I saw fish from the same parents during my visit with Tony earlier this month. Mine are at least 50% larger, and look different than his. His still have the juvenile type shape and are 6 months older. he has had 3 spawns from his already, and I'm still struggling. Now I had to get 6 180 gallon tanks to house mine. as my tanks are too small. I will also set up 2 pairs in 125 gallon tanks, and wait and wait and wait! But to back you up.... looking at the adults of Tony's and looking at my adults, they do not look the same. It is all environmental. Has nothing to do with genes, or anything else. It is one thing finding a wild fish and saying it is or is not an Altum But with captive bred or tank raised fish nobody should say it is or isn't real altum. I know for a fact, where the parents came from, and my offspring are from those parents. So why would anyone argue that if i know this 1st hand? anyway wish me luck. I'm hoping when they are 3 to 3 1/2 years old I will have enough altum fry to supply the world! just a dream, but I know I will get some spawns soon. It has been a life long dream!

[plecocicho]

You will have to wait 3 years. I have a feeling that real altuma and real scalare(rio negro altum) need at least 3 years to the maturaty and repdroductive age.

[Discus Origins]

Dale Jordan just got viable spawns from a pair of true Altums that he's had for several years and I know the source in Colombia that they came from. I will be getting a group of these F1s and raising them to see what they turn out to look like. I'm curious as to why Asian bred 'altums' have some deviations from wild characteristics in the F1 generation while European bred Altums retain those same characteristics well into the F5-6 generations.

Not to stir the fire but I have had personal conversations with Heiko Bleher who has seen most of these altums bred in Asia and he doesn't believe they are pure bred. He has nothing to gain or lose by saying this but coming from him that's a pretty powerful statement.

[fredyx]

You probably know this video, is a german breeder that has lots of experience:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MTAbuTYGk0M

[angelfishusa]

Dale Jordan just got viable spawns from a pair of true Altums that he's had for several years and I know the source in Colombia that they came from. I will be getting a group of these F1s and raising them to see what they turn out to look like. I'm curious as to why Asian bred 'altums' have some deviations from wild characteristics in the F1 generation while European bred Altums retain those same characteristics well into the F5-6 generations.

Not to stir the fire but I have had personal conversations with Heiko Bleher who has seen most of these altums bred in Asia and he doesn't believe they are pure bred. He has nothing to gain or lose by saying this but coming from him that's a pretty powerful statement.And I was at the farm. and they are true Altums. They were imported by the Tans. 100% wild altums. And I have committed to purchase all the rest of the F1 Spawn from Dale, plus all the rest of the spawns he has. His altums are not the same as the Tony Tan Altums. they are two completely different kinds. And as far as I can see, mine look exactly the same as the wild altums. There is no difference at all. Heiko, I believe as also said that some of the German Altums are not 100% altum. But you must remember, Heiko knows wilds. he spends all his time researching wild fish. Once a wild fish is captive bred, it can change according to it's enviroment. Heiko also said that Anthony's Heckels were crosses, until I corrected him where he congratulated Atilla in Hungary for his successful Heckel spawn. The fish that Heiko said were Heckel crosses were the actual fish from Atilla's spawn. So whether Angelfish, Discus, or any other wild fish. Once captive bred no one should say whether or not they are crosses, or not. Only the breeder will know for sure. And I assure you, Tony Tan Altums are 100% Altums.

[angelfishusa]

You will have to wait 3 years. I have a feeling that real altuma and real scalare(rio negro altum) need at least 3 years to the maturaty and repdroductive age.Others have had spawns, but i don't think any fry were raised, from the same batch of Altums that I have received. Jeffrey has had 3 spawns from his F1's that are 5-6 months older than mine (but much smaller!). They are absolutely mature, and it's just a matter of tweeking things a bit for them to spawn.....

[blueluv]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like their are two male and one female in the first pic?

[angelfishusa]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like their are two male and one female in the first pic?THE Picture I posted is just 1 pair male/female. which picture I you referring to?

[amyers]

I think he is referring to the first picture posted on the thread with the three Heckle Angels.

[nikond70s]

tho heiko bleher is very famous and knows his stuff. but he has been exposed several times on here and other forums. and especially he doesnt give u straight answer. instead he advertises himself and tells u to buy his book if u want the answer. there was a debate on finarama and angelfish forum about heiko about altums that heiko claims are scalare.

[Trier20]

This thread is making laugh. It's like some of us can't wrap our heads around that mutations happen. For God's sake look at the discus you have in your tanks and look where they came from.

[angelfishusa]

This thread is making laugh. It's like some of us can't wrap our heads around that mutations happen. For God's sake look at the discus you have in your tanks and look where they came from.said like a pro! I wish we knew more about the missing bar. but we won't know until these F1 start breeding for Tony. and it's still about 1 year away from happening. Jeffrey and Tony say it's a mutation, but I say it was enviromental probably. Heiko will say they are not true Altums, but I'm friends with Heiko now. He works hard at what he does and the only way to finance his trips is to sell the book. I will even help him promote the book. After talking to him for the past few days, yes he is stubborn, but he also seems like a good guy. My hats off to him, as there is no way I would be able to do what he does.

[angelfishusa]

I think he is referring to the first picture posted on the thread with the three Heckle Angels.OMG I'm an idiot. of course the first picture. and I have no idea. I can barely sex my 16" old adults.

[amyers]

OMG I'm an idiot. of course the first picture. and I have no idea. I can barely sex my 16" old adults.

Well, to me it doesn't really matter because I don't really have them for breeding purposes. I just really want to see how they grow out.

[angelfishusa]

Well, to me it doesn't really matter because I don't really have them for breeding purposes. I just really want to see how they grow out. that will be interesting as I will be getting 10 that are just slightly smaller than the ones I sold you. I will keep 4 for myself as I do want to grow them out this time and compare them to my other altums (which 1 pair has now spawned) and to your fish. I think in 6 months yours and the new ones will look exactly the same.

[amyers]

that will be interesting as I will be getting 10 that are just slightly smaller than the ones I sold you. I will keep 4 for myself as I do want to grow them out this time and compare them to my other altums (which 1 pair has now spawned) and to your fish. I think in 6 months yours and the new ones will look exactly the same.

Well David, this should be interesting, Lets see what happens. My wife says she is seeing growth in them, I will be back in the US the first week in July, if this is the case i will post pictures, I'm really hoping it's not just her imagination.

[amyers]

Well folks I just took a look at David's Facebook page and saw some photos of the few Hekel Altums he is getting being packed for shipment. In my opinion they look the same as mines. I know its only 10-12 he is getting from Tony and Jeffrey and most are for himself. I may ask him to sell me one so I can compare the growth to the 3 I have. But then again I can always compare them to his in the next couple months. I should be seeing mines this weekend and if they have grown a bit I will let you all know. Anyways, here's the photos.

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee401/amyers64/11467_10200888216301569_744235121_n_zps834e7ae8.jp g (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/amyers64/media/11467_10200888216301569_744235121_n_zps834e7ae8.jp g.html)

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee401/amyers64/941406_10200888218701629_155566954_n_zps71359931.j pg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/amyers64/media/941406_10200888218701629_155566954_n_zps71359931.j pg.html)

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee401/amyers64/945610_10200888216061563_328552088_n_zps6c28f854.j pg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/amyers64/media/945610_10200888216061563_328552088_n_zps6c28f854.j pg.html)

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee401/amyers64/995831_10200888219061638_483204428_n_zps6d1f1c98.j pg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/amyers64/media/995831_10200888219061638_483204428_n_zps6d1f1c98.j pg.html)

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee401/amyers64/1014353_10200888219141640_1081055535_n_zps3741ced1 .jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/amyers64/media/1014353_10200888219141640_1081055535_n_zps3741ced1 .jpg.html)

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee401/amyers64/1016524_10200888216261568_708598933_n_zps5e104016. jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/amyers64/media/1016524_10200888216261568_708598933_n_zps5e104016. jpg.html)

[amyers]

Wow, I was quite surprised when I saw the three fishes after a month and one week. Two are around 8 inches tall now, the other is 7.5. Spent most of yesterday looking for a 30 inch tall tank, because at the rate these guys are growing I will need it. I will post pictures when I get the time to take some decent ones. They now look exactly like the Altum's at my friends place, and looks like they are going to be giants. I guess my old BUDDY must have really neglected these fish as he said, for them to be looking how they were when I took them from him. OH WELL! At least he is an Honest Guy, LOL, LOL.

P.S. In spite of all the criticism and knocking these fishes got, I had several PM's with request to purchase them. Happy now I didn't sell them.

[amyers]

WILL TRY TO GET SOME BETTER PICS LATER IN THE WEEEK.

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee401/amyers64/DSCN1891_zps0393aa7d.jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/amyers64/media/DSCN1891_zps0393aa7d.jpg.html)

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee401/amyers64/DSCN1897_zps8712ed5c.jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/amyers64/media/DSCN1897_zps8712ed5c.jpg.html)

[amyers]

A little update as promised. I really did not enjoy doing this, but did it anyway cause I know saying it is one thing, seeing it is another. I had some help from my wife on this one. Their at 9 inches now and still growing. I'll do another update in December or so. By the Way, my Giant Blue Heckel Cross Discus is now 8 inches clear. I'll do the same next week with him and post pictures.

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee401/amyers64/DSCN2136_zps2ae8604e.jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/amyers64/media/DSCN2136_zps2ae8604e.jpg.html)

[CrazyAngels]

Sure are looking very nice ad big. Congrats

[JeffreyRichard]

Dale Jordan just got viable spawns from a pair of true Altums that he's had for several years and I know the source in Colombia that they came from. I will be getting a group of these F1s and raising them to see what they turn out to look like. I'm curious as to why Asian bred 'altums' have some deviations from wild characteristics in the F1 generation while European bred Altums retain those same characteristics well into the F5-6 generations.

Not to stir the fire but I have had personal conversations with Heiko Bleher who has seen most of these altums bred in Asia and he doesn't believe they are pure bred. He has nothing to gain or lose by saying this but coming from him that's a pretty powerful statement.

Interesting thread ... however, I see several issues that have been brought up.

First of all, these are nice fish, as some have commented. regardless of what they are called or their genetics.

BUT, I have reservation about these being genetically pure altums. As brought up, the physical profile of the "hekel" altums does not look like a typical altum. They are more elongated laterally, and do not have the typical upturned snout of the true altum. The coloration and striping is also in question ... this appears very (very very very) similar to the "clown" scalare phenotype ... basically a wild (striped) phenotype with partially expressed stripeless characteristics ... this happens when a blushing (stripeless) fish is crossed into a wild-type fish, and the offspring are bred. Some will look like the wild fish, some will have true stripeless/blushing features, and some will have this partial expression where one or more stripes are incomplete and look like a spot.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the altum line was crossed with a scalare with a blushing gene at some point ... but that is just my opinion and I have no evidence other than my conclusions.

My only criticism I have is that these fish are being labeled as True Altums ... as a purest I think there are enough questions that prevent the label to be adopted. I am not commenting on anyone's intentions or integrity ... just the opinion of the fish in question.

[andries]

these fish remind me of my first altum specially their body shape (at least i thought they where altum)wich i later realised must have been a cross between altum and scalare ,or maybe the so called rio negro altum
here,s a small movie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnCp4x1qrs

[puertoayacucho]

The notch at the nose is missing but they do have some Altum characteristics. My take is that these are hybrid Altum/Scalare

Totally agree! This is a result of hybridization rather than mutation from a pure P. Altum breeding.
Ed