room temperature

[cro117]

whats the lowest temperature that discus can survive at for prolonged periods, 3-4 months in the winter? i'm going to guess it wont get much lower then 78, 76 at the most.

[blueluv]

What's your reason for asking? I recently read a post were some discus hobbyist keep their discus at 82ºf.

[cro117]

i wrote a much longer and more detailed thread earlier, but it didn't go through, so this was kind of a test.

i'm going to be setting up a 240 soon, and i don't know if i can fit heating that tank into my fish budget. but im thinking that the house never gets too cold anyway, and i will insulate the tank the best that i can, as well as having the sump tank underneath insulated with the lights on at night. i'll have to actually wait till its set up and running at winter tine to check these levels, but i wanted to gauge what acceptable ranges might be in the mean time.

also, even with apistos i hate running tanks too hot as my plants suffer. swords and other heat tolerant plants will survive high temperatures, but they don't flourish, and when they aren't flourishing my tanks suffer do to lack of mechanized filtration.

[blueluv]

You can place your heaters in that sump. As far as ambient temperature, you'd have to keep the room where your will be set up the discus tank pretty warm. You also have to consider your water changes, you don't want major temperature fluctuations.

[cro117]

i'm hopping to avoid having to heat a 240+. our electric bill is already quite high as it is.

as far as water changes i usually only do them in the summer anyway. i use deep sand beds for healthy anaerobic conditions along with the plants so i run at zero nitrates even if i haven't changed the water for a year. my tap tests at 5-10 ppm sometimes, but the tanks are always at zero. i don't even get algae aside from a little hair algae sometimes. i will notice though if i go too long without changing the water that the snails in the tank suffer from calcium depletion, but maybe in a discus tank that would be a good thing anyway.

[cro117]

i actualy replied twice before, but once again nothing went through, this forum hates me i guess, lol

[a volar]

i'm hopping to avoid having to heat a 240+. our electric bill is already quite high as it is.

as far as water changes i usually only do them in the summer anyway. i use deep sand beds for healthy anaerobic conditions along with the plants so i run at zero nitrates even if i haven't changed the water for a year. my tap tests at 5-10 ppm sometimes, but the tanks are always at zero. i don't even get algae aside from a little hair algae sometimes. i will notice though if i go too long without changing the water that the snails in the tank suffer from calcium depletion, but maybe in a discus tank that would be a good thing anyway.

Wow..... Some people want to get away with weekly water changes in their discus tanks….. and you only want to make water changes in the summer? And water at temperature of 76 – 78? It doesn't work like that with discus, at least with healthy discus, to long to explain, search for water changes in this forum and you'll see why, but please read, read a lot :)


i actualy replied twice before, but once again nothing went through, this forum hates me i guess, lol

This forum hates everyone who doesn't want to make water changes.......LOL

[Tazalanche]

i wrote a much longer and more detailed thread earlier, but it didn't go through, so this was kind of a test.This one? (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?106909-help-with-heating-discusions)

[Second Hand Pat]

i actualy replied twice before, but once again nothing went through, this forum hates me i guess, lol

The forum does not hate you. Guess you do not read the new members FAQs. When you include emails, links or pictures in your first 10 posts your thread/posts are placed in moderation mode and are subject to an admin or moderator approval. This is for spam prevention. I approved your thread last night.

Welcome to SD and please, please do some reading here. What you are suggesting to do with temperature and water changes will simply not keep your fish healthy.

[gillym]

If the shoe doesn't fit.... Don't wear it... It's that simple.

Gm

[cro117]

[QUOTE=a volar;1008715]Wow..... Some people want to get away with weekly water changes in their discus tanks….. and you only want to make water changes in the summer? And water at temperature of 76 – 78? It doesn't work like that with discus, at least with healthy discus, to long to explain, search for water changes in this forum and you'll see why, but please read, read a lot :)

i get that in most cases, but i'm very experienced and know the nitrogen cycle very well. i was solely in charge of a a few 600+ reef systems in the aquarium store i used to work at. my home systems never get any nitrates, and there are a lot less trace elements to worry about balancing.

i was just trying to keep info short and pertaining to the question of heating. i've read that in their natural environment during the colder months temps can drop to 77-78, so i was just trying to see if anyone had any experience with keeping theirs at those temps for a few months as well. i don't even know what this tank will run at, i'm just trying to figure out a go/no go line when i start it up and check my levels.

i also know that there are many out there that keep captive bread discus at 7.8ish ph, but i just kind of wanted to hear first hand from them how they seem. i know one guy who breeds beautiful high-fin angels who says that his fish don't do well with lower ph because they have been bread in captivity for so many generations.

worst case i just go with angels and apistos, but i've bread them before and would rather do something else for this tank.

[cro117]

btw, im still looking over this forum so i don't know if mud filters have been mentioned already and if im just beating a dead horse here, but if anyone is having any trouble battling with nitrate building up, i can't stress enough the magics of a mud filter, or deep sand bed refugium.

[CrazyAngels]

You mention in your post "i've read that in their natural environment during the colder months temps can drop to 77-78".

Basically the natural environment of the discus you are mostly seeing here, has been an aquarium, unless you are thinking of buying wilds.

My fishroom is outdoors and in the winter it will get down to about 68 deg inside the room (though it may be down in the high 20"s), but each and every tank is heated and maintained 82-83 deg. what I have seen is that below 78 deg the discus seem to get slower almost lethargic and below 72 they don't do much. I had a heater fail and did not note the issue until temp was 70 deg and reason I noticed the problem was due to discus activity levels..

Personally I will not recommend you to do it, I'd rather have a smaller tank I can heat, than have a monster tank full of sick discus. I wish you well.

[cro117]

so your saying you'd mark the go/no-go line at 80 during the winter months?

there are always alternatives to discus, i've just never been able to afford a bigger tank before. i'm a knowledgeable experienced hobbies that has always had to work in a tight budget. i usually work with fish under 1-2". apistos are monster fish to me, lol. i've never had an opportunity to set up a big ecosystem before though, and i may possibly splurge for a heater, but i'm hoping to avoid it. just seems like a zero pollutant tank with tons of live food screams discus.

[Second Hand Pat]

For domestic discus 82 is as low as you want to go. You could go lower for a brief period of time to simulate spawning.

[yim11]

hobbies that has always had to work in a tight budget.

It is extremely difficult to keep discus successfully with a tight budget and/or limited funds. With the setup and conditions you describe you would be much better off getting adult fish, these will cost on average $85-150 each from one of the great sponsors here. If you get LFS or craigslist fish there is a very strong chance you will need to treat the fish - so the money you saved on buying that fish goes into the meds you will need, the QT/sick tank to put it in, and the heater you will need to raise the temp for some treatments.

In addition, the reason discus do better with more water changes isn't just due to nitrites/nitrates.

I think the apistos might be cheaper/easier in your case IMO.

[cro117]

as far as water changes are concerned its not that i can't do them more frequently, it's just that i've known water treatment guys, customers of mine from the store i worked at, i also studies water distribution for 1 course, and i don't like many of metals and additives from the tap. RO would help, but its not 100% and adds an expense that probably isn't really needed.

you'd be surprised how much less you need to do water changes for replenishment rather then life support. as far as growth hormones and slime coats are concerned, in a large enough tank they get broken down quickly. discus have a slightly different physiology then other fish as far as slime coat though, so more water changes might be necessary, its not hard to do more as needed, i just simple don't.

[LizStreithorst]

Give it a try and let us know how it goes. If everything goes well for you I will have learned something. If it goes poorly my thoughts about your heating and WC plans will be confirmed. I'm not the expert that you are. I'm looking forward to hearing all about it.

[cro117]

well right now it sounds like 82 is an absolute minimume you can ever let your tank get to. if it dropes below 82 the bus blows up. so i might end up doing angels and apistos instead, but the tank will be set up the same either way realy. a south american biotope with a few liberties taken here and there. so if anyone here is still interested to see the whole sump deep sand bed method in action i'll still post pics and stuff of the setup as it goes along.

right now im in the pre pre-setup stage. i don't even have the tank yet, it might even be unusable. in which case i'll convert my 55gal freshwater planted tank, into a marine planted macro algae tank, in which case you guys will never have to hear from me again, lol.

from some of the reading i've done here so far though, you guys seem to need a deep sand bed advocate.

[amyers]

Hey Cro, When I first got back into discus in Dec 2009, I tried that crap thinking that the fish had changed since I last kept them 12 year ago. I was wrong, They all died! Now I get away with once a week water change, but the my tanks are heavily filtered. The heater is a must also, I just lost a Very expensive show fish in January when there was a power surge and the power strip breaker tripped. My wife did not notice that and the water temp dropped to 68 degrees. Both him and his mate Died.
My heart still aches for that fish, If you want to try it go ahead. But use some Very Very cheap Discus, Like Runts.

[cro117]

well the filtration im not worried about, it's not that the tank has zero filtration, its just that it's a different type of filtration. all filtration really breaks down into is your aerobic bacteria and anaerobic. biological filtration anyway. there is of course chemical (rarely needed unless poisoning is suspected, i.e. soap) mechanical, helps remove waste before it breaks down into ammonia via mineralization (not needed if there isnt a lot of excess buildup, i.e. overfeeding), skimming, works of polarized bubbles, doesn't work in freshwater well and is the same as mechanical essentially, just lightens the load, sterilization (only useful if you want everything in the water column dead, mostly for drinking water, but weak sterilizers help with algae and parasites (again only situational use) and i guess those are pretty much it. most filters boil down to one, or more, of the above. i.e. canisters are mechanical biological, and and can be chemical if setup for it. wet dries are just biological, etc.

you can break biological filtration down further into its various stages aerobic and anaerobic. anaerobic filtration is the filtration most aquarists fear to touch with a 10' pole. mostly because of dangerous gasses that are produced and can kill a tank if released suddenly, but if you have a firm understanding of the system, or essentially don't disturb it with unnecessary maintenance this can complete an ecosystem and essentially make water changes unnecessary, except for the trace/mineral lose.

none of this will play any factor with the heating though, and impeccable water can only do so much for a fishes health, so i still may not be getting discus, it will depend, but i'll keep you guys informed of the tank build with a substitute like angels if i decide i can't keep up with the heating. most of the systems specs would still be retentive to a discus tank minus the plant styfling temperatures.

[GrayLadyPat]

Cro117,

I answered in your other thread, but I don't know if you saw it or not.

While I have my own opinions about changing water and care and feeding of discus, I will only answer the question you posed.

You might try an external heater, such as the Hydor. Mine works flawlessly, and only runs when the water needs to be heated. The integrated thermostat is dead on, and it doesn't seem to leave "cold spots." I have noticed that my electric bills are somewhat less than what I had before, but in truth, not enough to say that the Hydor is the reason.

In my experience, the optimum temp to keep both discus and plants is about 83. Higher than that is difficult to keep plants, and lower than that is difficult to keep discus. Also, at that temp, your plants will go through their life cycle much more quickly, causing a bit more maintenance on your part to remove excess dead leaves and detritus.

All the best,
Cheers!

[cro117]

thank you for your post. i am currently looking into alternative forms of heating the tank. when i worked at an aquarium store i heard too many stories of unreliable heaters, and large heaters actually causing serious damage to systems, so i wouldn't trust a standard aquarium heater for anything over 300 gals. i looked into gas powered tank-less heaters, but they seemed too hard to install. i think some sort of electric external might be the best option, but for now i'm just waiting to set it up and get some numbers.

i do greatly appreciate heater suggestions. reading about different units is nice, but i much prefer hearing from someone who is actually running one then from a manufacturer. so any heating suggestions would be great, crazy or otherwise.