Why dont discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

[dkeef]

My automatic daily 80gal/day wc system planning phase is now complete.
It consists of digital aquatic reefkeeper controller, auto topoff system with dual float switchs, 3 stage sediment/dual carbon block filtration, float valves, water level sensor alarm, emergency flood prevention overflow drain on water holding tank etc.
system will pump/refill 5gal every hour for 16 hrs during non-co2 injection time period and during light off period.
I found ton of info from saltwater people and from joey diy guy.
But im curious to know why discus keepers who in my opinion would benefit the most from this system are mostly doing wc manually?
Reefers do water change once or biweekly at most and only 25% or so.
Yet many set up auto wc systems. But discus keepers who change massive amount and keep most frequent wc schedule arent getting into this.
It will save so much time imo.
Someone fill me in here?

And if the reason is being just worried about something going wrong such as flooding etc then thats not a valid concern cuz there are absolutely ways to totally prevent any disasters.

[Trier20]

My honest answer is I'm a dumb *** and wouldn't be able to figure it out. Lol plus not doing auto wcs allows you to get all the detritus out of the tank.

[Ryan]

You'll have to do some searching, but I think it's been shown that changing small amounts of water over time does not have the same impact as doing one large water change. In a non-planted tank this would be easy to monitor using a simple nitrate test kit. But like Brandon mentions, most automated drip-type systems do not siphon feces and uneaten food. Those two things are contributing to the DOC build-up in your tank. If you don't remove them, the water quality continues to break down. This is the same reason why dirty filters and substrate can wreck your water quality even if you're changing water regularly.

[dkeef]

I agree on detritus part. And still think vacuuming is needed. But u can easily get eheim battery vaccum along with auto changer. Some ppl design auto system where they pump tank turbulence to collect the detritus during wc. U can get creative.
But this will significantly reduce time to manually do it.
Now this question pertains more to discus adult show tanks.
In breeder tanks where u feed multiple times per day and frys produces ton of waste, id rather do manual siphoning also.

It took me 2-3 days of googling and youtubing to figure this out. Its not hard to do at all. But i admit the first day i was clueless.

[dkeef]

You'll have to do some searching, but I think it's been shown that changing small amounts of water over time does not have the same impact as doing one large water change. In a non-planted tank this would be easy to monitor using a simple nitrate test kit. But like Brandon mentions, most automated drip-type systems do not siphon feces and uneaten food. Those two things are contributing to the DOC build-up in your tank. If you don't remove them, the water quality continues to break down. This is the same reason why dirty filters and substrate can wreck your water quality even if you're changing water regularly.

Got a question. So a heavily planted tank like mine where so much plants covers all substrates and with lack of siphoning, is it guarantee that water will continue to go bad regardless of water changes?

Wouldnt the detritus become plant food and not accumulate?

[Kal-El]

Got a question. So a heavily planted tank like mine where so much plants covers all substrates and with lack of siphoning, is it guarantee that water will continue to go bad regardless of water changes?

Wouldnt the detritus become plant food and not accumulate?
Run your system for a few months and you'll know the answer. It can be done it just won't give you the same healthy results as manually removing large water daily or every other day. If keeping adults it should be fine, but if you are growing out Juvie they will not grow to there full potential.

[Northwoods Discus]

The cost of a system like that on multiple tanks would be prohibitive, all discus keepers end up with multiple tanks. Technology tends to break down over time. Keep it simple stupid (kiss). Detritus takes a very long time to break down into material usable by the plants. Just some reasons not to use a system like that. Now that plus a full typical water change weekly in an adult tank would work well.
When people build fish rooms the full water changes are made quite simple with drains and water storage with easy pumping to the tanks. I have mine plumbed to flip a switch and fill. I am there to watch it but I don't lift buckets anymore.

[fredyx]

You'll have to do some searching, but I think it's been shown that changing small amounts of water over time does not have the same impact as doing one large water change. In a non-planted tank this would be easy to monitor using a simple nitrate test kit. But like Brandon mentions, most automated drip-type systems do not siphon feces and uneaten food. Those two things are contributing to the DOC build-up in your tank. If you don't remove them, the water quality continues to break down. This is the same reason why dirty filters and substrate can wreck your water quality even if you're changing water regularly.

You're right to reduce concentration of toxics in water over time is more effective to change 100% once every 4 days than changing 25% every day. I made myself a graphic to illustrate this idea (if you want I can ellaborate a little bit more, but this concept is not new):
http://imageshack.us/a/img820/2076/graficar.jpg
Legend tranlated to english: blue 25% daily, red 50% every other day, green 100% every 4 days. We consider a constant acumulation rate of waste (10 ppm per day) and that the water added is perfectly clean of polutants.
http://imageshack.us/a/img4/2830/datosgrafico.jpg

[John_Nicholson]

Like has been said above.....this has been tried by lots of people. It has never been able to produce the results that people wanted. You will end up spending more money, wasting more water, and having fish that you really can't be proud of. Now having said that it is your fish and your money so if you want to do this than please do. Take good pictures and take real measurements of your fish. Better yet bring some of them to NADA and see how they compare to other fish.

Good luck.

-john

[Second Hand Pat]

There is also an article in the Simply Discus library on this....

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/water_chemistry/general/wc_formula.shtml

The Simply Discus library is located on the Simply Discus main page and has tons of information (some outdated).

[John_Nicholson]

Pat folks can't even find the search field on the top of this page....there is no way they can find the library.....lol.

-john

[ktltn04]

Auto water change system is just a method to help you delay your water change when you are busy or on a vacation. It's not a good way for long run. You still will need to scrub and clean your filter because of those waste and un eaten food. You should check your pre filter sponge in 1-2 days after water change and see how dirty it is. Don't depend on auto water change to much or you will pay heavy price.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat folks can't even find the search field on the top of this page....there is no way they can find the library.....lol.

-john

Yea I know John. I am going to build an index with content and links to the library context so it is more accessible to simply members and hopefully gets more use.

[Jbarnes]

My implementation is very similar to yours. I simply use my controller to pump water from my holding bin to the sump three times daily. The sump contains an overflow to allow the excess water to drain to the home sewer system. I do not use any float switches and there is no need to do a ATO as the evaporation is minimal with the tank and sump covered. Personally I can't do every day WC using a hose to vacuum detris. It just won't get done. I vacuum once a week just like I do in my saltwater tanks. This is my first discus tank so I have no idea if my plan will cause poor health for the discus. Time will tell. Jerry.

[fredyx]

There is also an article in the Simply Discus library on this....

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/water_chemistry/general/wc_formula.shtml

The Simply Discus library is located on the Simply Discus main page and has tons of information (some outdated).

Yes as I said this is not new but a quite old discussion in aquarium maintenance :D (much older than my experience with discus LOL) I remember many years back (might be even before SD started I don't know) reading a transcription of a lecture on this topic from a relevant guest speaker in EEUU and I think that he projected a similar graphic on such occasion...

[dkeef]

thats what i was wondering. because u dilute the waste with drip system and remove much less compared to 1 large WC.
wonder why so many reef keepers use this method then?

hmm. well havent spent $$$ on equipments yet.
and i get what others are saying here.

[Second Hand Pat]

Dave, I think using a protein skimmer really helps the reef side of the house.

[ktltn04]

thats what i was wondering. because u dilute the waste with drip system and remove much less compared to 1 large WC.
wonder why so many reef keepers use this method then?

hmm. well havent spent $$$ on equipments yet.
and i get what others are saying here.

Salt and fresh are 2 totally different game but same idea: " healthy fish required clean water"

[dkeef]

it would be nice to know tho from someone who actually have set up this kind of auto system for long period and see the result.
especially in planted tank.

im still debating if i wanna try this cuz i understand what others are saying here. and those equipments are useful to me whether or not i make it automatic or manual wc due to having a sump. if test show high nitrate then i could always go back to manual large wcs.

[Skip]

NASA spent millions of dollars on research for pen that would write in space..

RUSSIANS used pencil..

KISS Method

[dkeef]

NASA spent millions of dollars on research for pen that would write in space..

RUSSIANS used pencil..

KISS Method

haha nice...btw whats KISS?

[Skip]

haha nice...btw whats KISS?

Keep it simple stupid..
Motto from nasa enginners

[8ftbed]

...adopted from USN for which it was a design principle of note in '60

Go NAVY!

Speaking of old discussions and rulers, I see the gold standard for SD has surfaced. :) Anyone with a new/old/hairbrained idea, well you must bring the results to NADA for comparison. That's like the homebody getting a yoga mat and exercise video. They lose some weight, feel better and feel better about themselves and can actually jog a few miles. Yea!

Until they're told they're doing it wrong. Hey there homie, if you ramp up the metabolism with all these supplements and get some on some legitimate equipment and training regimen, then you'd really be good. Go enter yourself in the Boston Marathon or Mr. Olympia and see what kind of shape you're in.

LOL!!!

[John_Nicholson]

I am just trying to get the word out on NADA. Like I have said in the past....It is the most fun that you can have with your clothes on.....

The one area that I would like to see increase is the number of hobbyist that show their fish. Win or lose it makes the show more fun.

-john

[Second Hand Pat]

John is right. I went to 2012 show and had a blast. I even took a fish. It did not win anything but it acclimated well and presented itself nicely so I was happy. It was four days of being immersed in discus and discus people. I loved it.

[dkeef]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtVt0xRW-bI&sns=em

He does drip on all his tanks including discus breeders.

[Gene]

$$$ lol

[dkeef]

His drip cost $20 to make. Good to be mr diy.

[John_Nicholson]

Since you are convinced it is the way to go then please do it.......

-john

[dkeef]

Its not a crime to throw some ideas back and forth. If it bothers ppl then please look away.
Id appreciate it. Thanks.

[John_Nicholson]

Well you have asked...you have been answered, but you keep asking. You have already made up your mind so pull the trigger and do it. If you want to read responses do a search on it it has been discussed to death several times. Just because you were not here yet does not mean this is new to the rest of us.

-john

[DonMD]

Well you have asked...you have been answered, but you keep asking. You have already made up your mind so pull the trigger and do it. If you want to read responses do a search on it it has been discussed to death several times. Just because you were not here yet does not mean this is new to the rest of us.

-john

+1

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Ryan]

It'd be a really simple experiment to do, actually. If I had the patience to set up a small drip system I'd gladly test it. Maybe someone else would like to jump on it and post a thread here. It would be a very informative experiment.

You could take two smaller tanks of manageable size (say, a 40 breeder or a 55) and set up a drip system on one of them. Put the same number and size fish in both tanks, feed them exactly the same, and then let the drip system change water on one while manually doing 50% daily changes on the other. Measure results of nitrate, TDS, pH, etc. at the end of one week, two weeks, etc. Over the course of a few months it'd be interesting to note the differences (if there are any) in the size, color, or behavior of the fish.

As for the link you posted, it's a 540 gallon tank with two fish in it. The DOCs and nitrate are not going to build up in that tank the way they would in a heavily stocked tank. I can put a pair of discus in a 180 gallon tank and get by with one small water change a week, or use a drip system to change a few gallons per hour. But you have to consider how many discus you have in your tank versus its size. If I recall, your tank is heavily stocked.

[Second Hand Pat]

Would also be a great thread for the Laboratory part of the forum.

[Ryan]

Pat, you like to tinker and you have plenty of fry to work with. Maybe you've found your next project. ;)

[Second Hand Pat]

Ryan, the current batch of fry are about 25 and half are spoken of. Once I send them off I might have enough to fool with if I keep the culls. I have a couple with short gill plates and two with a abnormal dorsal fin. Guess we know which group would go in the drip system. :D

[dkeef]

It'd be a really simple experiment to do, actually. If I had the patience to set up a small drip system I'd gladly test it. Maybe someone else would like to jump on it and post a thread here. It would be a very informative experiment.

You could take two smaller tanks of manageable size (say, a 40 breeder or a 55) and set up a drip system on one of them. Put the same number and size fish in both tanks, feed them exactly the same, and then let the drip system change water on one while manually doing 50% daily changes on the other. Measure results of nitrate, TDS, pH, etc. at the end of one week, two weeks, etc. Over the course of a few months it'd be interesting to note the differences (if there are any) in the size, color, or behavior of the fish.

As for the link you posted, it's a 540 gallon tank with two fish in it. The DOCs and nitrate are not going to build up in that tank the way they would in a heavily stocked tank. I can put a pair of discus in a 180 gallon tank and get by with one small water change a week, or use a drip system to change a few gallons per hour. But you have to consider how many discus you have in your tank versus its size. If I recall, your tank is heavily stocked.

this is the kind of nice response to someone new to this. with reasoning and PATIENCE.
isnt this a place where anyone can come in and ask same thing over and over and those who DO wanna respond can do and those who are annoyed can just ignore?

thanks ryan for a NICE response. im gonna try this myself also and test daily and experiment this as well.
ill either add to another failure thread or hey dang this thing works thread. but at least someone here can actually say they tried it and it didnt work vs oh i read an article or heard a lecture from someone who said this doesnt work
those who wanna try this are welcomed to join in.

btw, joey told me he also drips his discus fry tank also. he drips all his tanks. and to me, they look good enough.

[John_Nicholson]

Do you alway whine this much? You need Ryan to tell you to try it? LOL......Well at least you should be happy you have now found someone that told you to try it....oh wait a minute 2 pages back I gave you a very nice response to your question and told you to try it. Also invited you to NADA. And instead of me ignoring something why don't you use the search function and read all of the other responses where this has already been covered? Why do you feel so entitled? Why do you feel people should take time out of their busy day to answer questions for you that have already been answered several times already?

-john

[Tazalanche]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/tazfreeatlast/stuff/Smileys/deadhorse-1.gif

[Ryan]

Guys, can we not? Thanks.

I'll remind everybody that if you don't like someone's tone or posts, you can add them to your ignore list and you won't have to see them.

[John_Nicholson]

Ryan I know that but it is not me that I am worried about. As you know I hate it when someone keeps posting about something that they have never done....because it often causes other new people to be mislead. I don't care about their fish at all. It is all of the other new folks that will read this and think it is the way to go. If they want to do it them great go and do it. Show us all how great it works and then talk about it. We both know how this will end...we have both seen it more times than we care to admit. There is about a 90% chance that the fish will either die or look like crap when they are done growing. I guess I just get irritated at someone that does nothing but talk....Either do it or quit talking about it.

-john

[blueluv]

79809

Honestly... why must it always come down to these type of responses?

[John_Nicholson]

79809

Honestly... why must it always come down to these type of responses?



Probably because people come in here and insist on pushing methods that have been proven to be faulty for the last 40 years. They never really do it and then report the results. They just get on here and beat the dead horse.

-john

[Jbarnes]

Do you alway whine this much? You need Ryan to tell you to try it? LOL......Well at least you should be happy you have now found someone that told you to try it....oh wait a minute 2 pages back I gave you a very nice response to your question and told you to try it. Also invited you to NADA. And instead of me ignoring something why don't you use the search function and read all of the other responses where this has already been covered? Why do you feel so entitled? Why do you feel people should take time out of their busy day to answer questions for you that have already been answered several times already?

-john

Man you guys are tough group to get to know. Are there any other forums for Discus?

[Second Hand Pat]

Ok Guys, moved this to the laboratory and there are enough disclaimers in this thread to warn any new member. So lets move on are quit rehashing the same points.

[nwehrman]

Actually John is very friendly... Just saying - but he will tell it like he sees it. But if you want discus knowledge and how to do it well - he's a good guy to ask! He's probably had discus longer than most have been around!

[John_Nicholson]

Lots of them but if you want the truth stay here. We are not normally a bad group of guys. The one thing that tends to get irritating is the same question over and over again when the poster has already made up their mind of the answer that they want. It is kind of like going on a10 hour road trip with a kid that ask every 3 minutes "are we there yet?" I hope you stay around.

-john

[rcomeau]

dkeef -
I think I decided to keep discus to build an automatic water changer, not the other way around. An Arduino runs it. It is good fun. Good luck with your solution.

My changer is currently configured to automatically change 50% of my 50g tank every other day. I do not need to touch it while it performs these steps:
1. 20 min to siphon 50% from the tank. 14 ft vertical pipe x 0.433 psi/ft = 6 psi of siphon vacuum (no pump). This step is silent.
2. 15 sec to drain cold water from the fill pump to replace it with warm conditioned water from the bins. This avoids pumping that dead water into the tank.
3. 180 sec to refill the tank. The pump is loud but it is in the basement. The water splashing into the tank is louder because it is up where we are.
4. 4 sec to top off the tank to keep the float switch up
5. Send me a text message of how long it actually took to refill the tank. This gives me peace of mind. Old failures had the symptom of taking way too little time to refill.
6. 140 sec to drain unused water from the bins. I don't like/want the old water in there before filling with new tap water.
7. 800 sec to refill the bins until the float trips
8. 25 sec to top off the bins to keep the float switch up
9. 2 sec to pump water back up into the siphon line because a prior step drained it. This solved a problem that I had where the line was not primed for adhoc vacuuming.
10. 30 hours of doing nothing other than aging the bin water (no agitation nor heating)
11. Begin agitating the bin water
12. 48 hours after the start of the last water change, start the next step
13. 6 sec to dose 6 ml of Prime with a peristaltic pump into a bin because my tap water has chloramine in it. Agitating continues which mixes the Prime.
14. Heat the bin water until over 81 deg F then start step 1. Continue heating until step 3. The heaters are set to max heating. The arduino turns them on/off once at 84 deg F.

Debris vacuuming is manual. However, I simplified it down to pressing a button to trigger arduino to siphon for 90 seconds. It uses the same tubing that stays clipped inside of the tank for water change siphons. The tubing extends halfway down into the water when clipped to the wall and it is also clipped up under the entire length of the top. I pull it out of the clips to reach everywhere along the bare bottom of the tank then put it back in the clips when done. I do not disconnect the tubing nor remove it from the tank. That reduces debris vacuuming to a little more than the 90 seconds. (Except that the siphon is stopped/started with a diaphragm valve. Debris held the diaphram valve open once or twice. I solved that by putting a filter before it. The debris needs to be cleaned out of that filter every month or so.)

The walls still need to be wiped down and filters need to be cleaned about once a week. I try to do that before the water changes so that 50% of the disturbed water is replaced during the next automatic water change.

It ages and agitates the water in two bins. I believe that the purpose is to maximize water/air exchange by maximizing the surface area and maximizing the agitation of the water surface. Two bins have more surface area than I found with any one deep bin. A power head pumps the least agitated water from one bin to drop it onto the surface of the other bin. Ph rises to match the tank at about 7. The way I think of it, the water in the tank is agitated by the filters. Agitation of water change water in the bins conditions it to be closer to the tank water.

The bins are behind the hot water heater in the basement. That made easy access to the cold water supply and the sump pump for accidents. It is also about 14 feet below the tank which provides 6 psi of siphon vacuum. The more vertical distance the better for siphoning. The pump is strong enough to pump the water up that distance from the bins to the tank.

I cannot comment on how this would work with a planted tank although I did keep a planted tank with injected CO2 to control PH at 7 in the past. I stopped that before going bare bottom with water changes for discus. I do not think that most people work out how to maintain CO2 levels when doing high water changes regardless of doing it automatically.

I am glad that I didn't keep it simple. However, to avoid misleading anyone, my approach involved custom electronic circuit design and construction, custom programming, and custom plumbing. The ability to completely customize it was a key success factor. I did not start the project until I was sure that I was capable of building out the entire complex concept. I called it Project Rube after Rube Goldberg. I doubt that most people would succeed with it even if it were packaged as a product with a manual. Perhaps those points are answers your subject question.

The effort obviously does not need to be all or nothing. Some of the harder manual steps can be automated without automating the rest.

Good luck getting suggestions. I will start my own thread to get improvement suggestions at some point. Oddly, some suggestions seem to be biased by how much more work it will add. The changer patiently does the work! It can be configured to perform the most ideal water change regardless of difficulty. I also found it hard to get ideal suggestions in the past.

I hope my post is what you expect and honorably insisted enough to keep requesting. I am glad that you stuck around.

[Gene]

Man you guys are tough group to get to know. Are there any other forums for Discus?

None with as much experience and knowledge in the same place. This is where you want to be if you want nice discus.

[dkeef]

dkeef -
I think I decided to keep discus to build an automatic water changer, not the other way around. An Arduino runs it. It is good fun. Good luck with your solution.

My changer is currently configured to automatically change 50% of my 50g tank every other day. I do not need to touch it while it performs these steps:
1. 20 min to siphon 50% from the tank. 14 ft vertical pipe x 0.433 psi/ft = 6 psi of siphon vacuum (no pump). This step is silent.
2. 15 sec to drain cold water from the fill pump to replace it with warm conditioned water from the bins. This avoids pumping that dead water into the tank.
3. 180 sec to refill the tank. The pump is loud but it is in the basement. The water splashing into the tank is louder because it is up where we are.
4. 4 sec to top off the tank to keep the float switch up
5. Send me a text message of how long it actually took to refill the tank. This gives me peace of mind. Old failures had the symptom of taking way too little time to refill.
6. 140 sec to drain unused water from the bins. I don't like/want the old water in there before filling with new tap water.
7. 800 sec to refill the bins until the float trips
8. 25 sec to top off the bins to keep the float switch up
9. 2 sec to pump water back up into the siphon line because a prior step drained it. This solved a problem that I had where the line was not primed for adhoc vacuuming.
10. 30 hours of doing nothing other than aging the bin water (no agitation nor heating)
11. Begin agitating the bin water
12. 48 hours after the start of the last water change, start the next step
13. 6 sec to dose 6 ml of Prime with a peristaltic pump into a bin because my tap water has chloramine in it. Agitating continues which mixes the Prime.
14. Heat the bin water until over 81 deg F then start step 1. Continue heating until step 3. The heaters are set to max heating. The arduino turns them on/off once at 84 deg F.

Debris vacuuming is manual. However, I simplified it down to pressing a button to trigger arduino to siphon for 90 seconds. It uses the same tubing that stays clipped inside of the tank for water change siphons. The tubing extends halfway down into the water when clipped to the wall and it is also clipped up under the entire length of the top. I pull it out of the clips to reach everywhere along the bare bottom of the tank then put it back in the clips when done. I do not disconnect the tubing nor remove it from the tank. That reduces debris vacuuming to a little more than the 90 seconds. (Except that the siphon is stopped/started with a diaphragm valve. Debris held the diaphram valve open once or twice. I solved that by putting a filter before it. The debris needs to be cleaned out of that filter every month or so.)

The walls still need to be wiped down and filters need to be cleaned about once a week. I try to do that before the water changes so that 50% of the disturbed water is replaced during the next automatic water change.

It ages and agitates the water in two bins. I believe that the purpose is to maximize water/air exchange by maximizing the surface area and maximizing the agitation of the water surface. Two bins have more surface area than I found with any one deep bin. A power head pumps the least agitated water from one bin to drop it onto the surface of the other bin. Ph rises to match the tank at about 7. The way I think of it, the water in the tank is agitated by the filters. Agitation of water change water in the bins conditions it to be closer to the tank water.

The bins are behind the hot water heater in the basement. That made easy access to the cold water supply and the sump pump for accidents. It is also about 14 feet below the tank which provides 6 psi of siphon vacuum. The more vertical distance the better for siphoning. The pump is strong enough to pump the water up that distance from the bins to the tank.

I cannot comment on how this would work with a planted tank although I did keep a planted tank with injected CO2 to control PH at 7 in the past. I stopped that before going bare bottom with water changes for discus. I do not think that most people work out how to maintain CO2 levels when doing high water changes regardless of doing it automatically.

I am glad that I didn't keep it simple. However, to avoid misleading anyone, my approach involved custom electronic circuit design and construction, custom programming, and custom plumbing. The ability to completely customize it was a key success factor. I did not start the project until I was sure that I was capable of building out the entire complex concept. I called it Project Rube after Rube Goldberg. I doubt that most people would succeed with it even if it were packaged as a product with a manual. Perhaps those points are answers your subject question.

The effort obviously does not need to be all or nothing. Some of the harder manual steps can be automated without automating the rest.

Good luck getting suggestions. I will start my own thread to get improvement suggestions at some point. Oddly, some suggestions seem to be biased by how much more work it will add. The changer patiently does the work! It can be configured to perform the most ideal water change regardless of difficulty. I also found it hard to get ideal suggestions in the past.

I hope my post is what you expect and honorably insisted enough to keep requesting. I am glad that you stuck around.

Thank you very much. all i wanted was someone here with different ideas than traditional KISS water change routine.
i figure if the guy in video has success with auto drip then maybe its possible to us also.
your system is way more complex than what im thinking. i just read it once and im lost. better read it again. would be great for u to start your own thread with pics or videos to help like minded folks. this will help those people with large tanks requiring lot of time to do manual wcs.

[dkeef]

None with as much experience and knowledge in the same place. This is where you want to be if you want nice discus.

+1.

[dkeef]

i also think if the water change aspect of discus keeping can be more automated with less work, then discus community as a whole can grow much more.
discus are really the best looking freshwater fish out there. but what scares most newbies are the required maintenance needed.
right now we got, group like simply that says u gotta keep up with diligent water changes to keep healthy discus(which is TRUE) and other people who barely kept quality discus(most are stunted) saying discus keeping is easy and u dont have to do large water changes and u can get away with monthly 25% wcs(they also say dont listen to simply people LOL)...
it would be nice to find a solution bridging the two that can bring more aquarist into discus. granted that maybe most of us arent trying to raise Show champion discus but just nice quality ones like our sponsors sells us.

[Skip]

. granted that maybe most of us arent trying to raise Show champion discus but just nice quality ones like our sponsors sells us.

Sponsors are the ones that send the show fish..

[John_Nicholson]

The trouble is there is no universal definition of success......I have talked to lots of people who claim to have successfully raised great discus in a planted tank. They tell me at least 7 inches and perfect. I drive over to see and I see 5 inch fish that on a scale of 1 to 10 would rate a 4. I am not saying that you can't do it. I am simply saying that if you really want nice fish then this is not the best way. Once you have adults then fine do it this way and things will probably work out ok, but it is not a good way to raise out young ones.

-john

[timmy82]

I am just trying to get the word out on NADA. Like I have said in the past....It is the most fun that you can have with your clothes on.....

The one area that I would like to see increase is the number of hobbyist that show their fish. Win or lose it makes the show more fun.

-john

Mate end of next year I should be over that way hopefully I don't think I can Bring a discus 14hrs on a plane but would love to see what it is all about in the NADA and see some nice wilds too.

[Second Hand Pat]

I moved this thread to the laboratory for a reason, to allow a free exchange of ideas here without getting beat over the head that the tried and true ways are the best. So please lets allow some wiggle room here and see if this approach yields anything positive or proves that the tried and true are the best. Dave, I encourage you to please document your methods, process and progress to show the results.

[John_Nicholson]

Pat I am not trying to talk him out of it. With any experiment you have to define what success is before you start. I am trying to help define that. He know me I am all for people trying new stuff. I just hate for them to champion a different way until they have done it themselves. I am all for them doing this.

timmy82 looking forward to it. NADA is a blast. The trouble with the internet is it is real easy to get the wrong impression of someone. Face to face communications is always better. While the show and speakers are all great it is the sitting around talking fish that really makes me love NADA.

-john

[Second Hand Pat]

John, he is still in the discovery phase and I am trying to allow that to happen.

[ktltn04]

John, he is still in the discovery phase and I am trying to allow that to happen.

I think he try to run before he can walk. If he couldn't keep up with the water change for a planted discus tank then he shouldn't get a 265gallon heavy planted tank and stock up so many fish and expect them to grow at a normal rate.

[Second Hand Pat]

I think he try to run before he can walk. If he couldn't keep up with the water change for a planted discus tank then he shouldn't get a 265gallon heavy planted tank and stock up so many fish and expect them to grow at a normal rate.

Sometimes you just have to give people the rope and see what they do with it.

[ktltn04]

Sometimes you just have to give people the rope and see what they do with it.

not just a rope, they need a pen and paper to write down a plan.

[Ryan]

not just a rope, they need a pen and paper to write down a plan.

It sounds like he is working on the planning phase, which is good. Hopefully he will use this thread to document the process and let us know how the experiment goes.

I still think this would be an interesting experiment in a more controlled environment with bare bottom tanks and young fish. A large planted tank with adult discus is going to have a lot of extra variables which will make clear-cut results from this drip system experiment more difficult to nail down. For instance, plants should be absorbing nitrates out of the water, so who's to say if the drip system is effectively removing them or the plants? Etc. etc.

If I had the space or money to set up a drip system I'd try this experiment in a heartbeat. We've heard from both sides on this issue multiple times over the years but no one has really maintained good documentation with water parameter measurements, pictures, and end results.

[ktltn04]

It sounds like he is working on the planning phase, which is good. Hopefully he will use this thread to document the process and let us know how the experiment goes.

I still think this would be an interesting experiment in a more controlled environment with bare bottom tanks and young fish. A large planted tank with adult discus is going to have a lot of extra variables which will make clear-cut results from this drip system experiment more difficult to nail down. For instance, plants should be absorbing nitrates out of the water, so who's to say if the drip system is effectively removing them or the plants? Etc. etc.

If I had the space or money to set up a drip system I'd try this experiment in a heartbeat. We've heard from both sides on this issue multiple times over the years but no one has really maintained good documentation with water parameter measurements, pictures, and end results.

Oh for sure he has a plan but he wants to know the result before he actually build and use it.

[strawberryblonde]

It sounds like he is working on the planning phase, which is good. Hopefully he will use this thread to document the process and let us know how the experiment goes.

I still think this would be an interesting experiment in a more controlled environment with bare bottom tanks and young fish. A large planted tank with adult discus is going to have a lot of extra variables which will make clear-cut results from this drip system experiment more difficult to nail down. For instance, plants should be absorbing nitrates out of the water, so who's to say if the drip system is effectively removing them or the plants? Etc. etc.

If I had the space or money to set up a drip system I'd try this experiment in a heartbeat. We've heard from both sides on this issue multiple times over the years but no one has really maintained good documentation with water parameter measurements, pictures, and end results.


Ok, NOW you've peaked my interest. LOL

Give me a couple of months to grow out my babies and integrate all of my discus into my big tank and then I'll start scouring CL for some inexpensive 40g tanks and plans for a drip system. I can set it up in my laundry room and stuff all the drip system equipment under the counter that runs the length of the room. It'll mean relocating my inlay equipment, but oh well, hubby won't mind if I invade his man cave.... I hope. =)

I love a good experiment, same as the rest of us, so this will be fun! Oh and I'll be sure to document the ongoing results. I just can't promise that I won't yank the drip system offline prematurely if I find that the juvies in it are suffering.

[dkeef]

Yes this just an experiment phase. I wont know the result til its done.
And i get why old timers are saying it can fail because i was also and still is little skeptical on it cuz i agree that one large water change always remove more dirty water out than multiple small changes. But im counting on more frequent changes and more overall volume of water being changed.
Right now manually i change 200gal wc per week and its working great. Those who say im doing this because i have a plant tank and im overstocked and its failing is not true. Growth isnt my concern. Stunting was. My discus are healthy for my standard. Thats why i took ppls advice here about buying adult discus from quality sponsors like kenny and josie.
Most of my discus are 5"+ and half are 6"+. One of kennys is 7"+. And honestly im happy with 6-7". I dont care to grow them beyond that. So whatever normal growth is. Thats not my objective.
With the auto change system, ill be changing 80gal/day. Thats 560gal/week. This is not because i have increase my normal wc routine but to compensate for the diluting of new water into old water. Like john says it makes sense that 1 large wc will be better than multiple small changes if the water volume being removed is same on both scenario. Mine isnt. Its more than double and almost triple.
As far as plants removing nitrates to affect thr result hmm i dunno cuz whether which way i do wc both waters are gonna have same plants removing nitrates.
But again im not convinced im gonna be successful doing this but also dont think it will fail for sure.
But all this opposition did make me think and come up with plan B if this thing fails.
Using all same controller, pump, float switchs, water storage etc, i figured out i can easily modify the system where instead of doing 8gal wc every 30min for 5hrs, i can design it to remove automatically 80-100gal per day all at once.
Either way, this tank will be automated and with plan B, its not any different than me doing wc manually. Same thing. With planted tank, i dont siphon substrate anyway.
Money or water waste isnt big deal to me. Time is. Id rather enjoy watching them and spend more time with my family than doing manual wc.
Also from others members here i found our european discus keepers have already gone to hightech auto wc system. Think i heard alex piwowski also does this? Im not sure.
So why not us. Old ways work. I agree. But some of us are tired of old ways and wanna find new and easier way that can work. Thats it. I will be sharing this info here for the benefit of the members who are looking for similar solution.

[Ryan]

There's a difference between a drip system and an automated water change, though.

My uncle built an African cichlid hatchery and his grow-out tanks were rigged with an automated water change system. Twice a day the tanks would drain about 50% and then refill from a reservoir of aged water. This is still changing a large volume of water at one time, much like a manual water change. It would probably be more effective than a drip system which is streaming in a very small amount of new water that is then diluted into the existing water. They're both automated systems but one is probably much more effective for grow-outs or heavily stocked tanks.

My guess is that when you speak of European discus keepers or breeders having automated systems, they probably change larger quantities of water once or twice daily rather than a continuous drip system. I could be wrong but that's how I'd do it.

[Skip]

There's a difference between a drip system and an automated water change, though.


yep

[dkeef]

Not sure if i mentioned im gonna do drip system but im not gonna do drip.
My goal is automated wc but want to find out if small 8gal at a time wc can be sufficient or large 80-100 gal has to be done.
Maybe strawberry can try drip system only and ill add to comparing frequent small auto wcs vs larger wc.

I was sent this info from other members.
http://www.diskuszucht-piwowarski.de/Facility.html

[Baygon]

Water change is the "sour" part you get when you have a Sour Patch Kids....sour first then they are sweet!

[dkeef]

I think kids are sweet first then sour. Lol

[nc0gnet0]

If you want to design an automatic water change system that will really work, build a 55 gallon toilet, toss a grate in it (so the fish don't get sucked down the drain) and call it good. Once a day just give it a flush, 100% water change is done..........

[dkeef]

If you want to design an automatic water change system that will really work, build a 55 gallon toilet, toss a grate in it (so the fish don't get sucked down the drain) and call it good. Once a day just give it a flush, 100% water change is done..........

Not exactly sure how this works in sump system without drain.

[Tazalanche]

If you want to design an automatic water change system that will really work, build a 55 gallon toilet, toss a grate in it (so the fish don't get sucked down the drain) and call it good. Once a day just give it a flush, 100% water change is done..........A bigger version of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtwFTVM3NiU

[Baygon]

Lol

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 4

[ericatdallas]

dkeef -
I think I decided to keep discus to build an automatic water changer, not the other way around. An Arduino runs it. It is good fun. Good luck with your solution.


Did you design your own or did you use one of the open source projects? I was working on this about 2 years ago but got sidetracked. Now that I'm starting to get some time back I wanted to look into this again but I've noticed over the last two years, there's a lot more in the public domain and I'm completely okay with not reinventing the wheel.

[White Worm]

I think many discus keepers are already doing a mixture of auto/manual changes now. I'll bet John turns a couple valves, flips a couple switches and walla!! WC complete. Of course there is the wipe downs, vacuuming and filter rinsing. Nothing wrong with a combination of auto and manual since one or the other on their own is either time consuming or not practical. When I set up my future fish room, it will be as automatic as possible but nothing can replace the 3 manual requirements. Plus, you cant replace the interaction and of course the 6 feedings per day. If the hobby was 100% automated, it wouldnt be any fun.

[dkeef]

I think many discus keepers are already doing a mixture of auto/manual changes now. I'll bet John turns a couple valves, flips a couple switches and walla!! WC complete. Of course there is the wipe downs, vacuuming and filter rinsing. Nothing wrong with a combination of auto and manual since one or the other on their own is either time consuming or not practical. When I set up my future fish room, it will be as automatic as possible but nothing can replace the 3 manual requirements. Plus, you cant replace the interaction and of course the 6 feedings per day. If the hobby was 100% automated, it wouldnt be any fun.

Yea. U gotta at least have the interaction of feeding. I love holding als freeze dried blackworm and feel their beaks pecking on my finger lol.

[Ryan]

I think most hardcore hobbyists and breeders with fish rooms are using automated water changes. If you look at that Piwowarski link, I see PVC pipe sticking up in each tank. My guess is they flip open valves and the tank automatically drains to a certain point, then are refilled. This has been a method used for a long time. It's very fast and relatively simple to set up.

My water changes are semi-automated. I hook my siphon into a water pump and drain to a bathtub, then drop the pump in a bucket and pump back to the tank. Siphoning the bottom takes about 5 minutes (well, probably more like 2, but I always have to go back over it a second time because they start pooping as soon as I start draining :mad:). I use the rest of the time to wipe down the glass, squeeze out the prefilters, and once a week I squeeze the foam in the ACs or the sponge filters. It's only about 10 - 15 minutes of real work, the rest is just waiting on the drain/refill.

[rcomeau]

Did you design your own or did you use one of the open source projects?
I used Arduino (http://www.arduino.cc/) which is considered 'Open-source electronic prototyping platform'. The hardware isn't free but it attempts to be close to free the way that open-source software is free.

I wrote the code that runs on the Arduino. It includes one part from an open source project. I used the DallasTemperature (http://milesburton.com/Dallas_Temperature_Control_Library) library to simplify the code that I needed to write to read temperatures from the probes. That made the code that I needed to write as simple as, for example, ...
if (sensors.getTempFByIndex(1) > 81) {

[rcomeau]

I think most hardcore hobbyists and breeders with fish rooms are using automated water changes.
The one breeder setup that I saw was using what could be considered a drip system. Tap water was continuously flowing into all of the tanks and obviously draining at the same rate. The flow was relatively faster than what is implied by naming it a drip system. The entire fish room was at discus temperature. The PH obviously only fluctuates as the tap water fluctuates. I don't know if/how he contends with chlorine and chloramine.

[Baygon]

+1 They love pooping when you WC as if on purpose lol.
I think most hardcore hobbyists and breeders with fish rooms are using automated water changes. If you look at that Piwowarski link, I see PVC pipe sticking up in each tank. My guess is they flip open valves and the tank automatically drains to a certain point, then are refilled. This has been a method used for a long time. It's very fast and relatively simple to set up.

My water changes are semi-automated. I hook my siphon into a water pump and drain to a bathtub, then drop the pump in a bucket and pump back to the tank. Siphoning the bottom takes about 5 minutes (well, probably more like 2, but I always have to go back over it a second time because they start pooping as soon as I start draining :mad:). I use the rest of the time to wipe down the glass, squeeze out the prefilters, and once a week I squeeze the foam in the ACs or the sponge filters. It's only about 10 - 15 minutes of real work, the rest is just waiting on the drain/refill.

[8ftbed]

Smell fresh bread entering the grocery store and you're suddenly hungry.
Hear water running and start doing the pee pee dance.
Discus see the siphon and get an urgent turd warning.

Life through my trifocals... :)

[dkeef]

Remember when i mentioned europeans keep fish in very hightech systems and was wondering if this is true. So i asked them if thats really true. Well i know why now.
Heres one of their reponse:

"I live in Sweden, and here is it very much and hard technology when we keep freshwaterfishes.
We have a law that says that freshwaterfish SHALL be held under perfekt conditions. The animal-protection community is very hard an rough if we don't follow the law."

We have it easy here in states.

[Baygon]

Here in Panama (central america) is worst. At the pic you will see how f up when they do wc. I took the pic at the shop and here people could careless...sigh.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 4

[dkeef]

Hahaha. Thats good one.
One guy in Uk told me they never use sponge filters.
Its very interesting how different ppl r over the world.

[ktltn04]

+1 They love pooping when you WC as if on purpose lol.

+2 on that. I always see some poop right after I'm done WC

[uarujoey]

I have tanks with drip systems. I drip to over 1000 gallons of tanks every day. I will be doubling that number in the next few months.

It is easy for someone to come on here saying that they dont work, or not efficient or effective... while they sit staring at a 90 gallon tank(or what ever they have) claiming manual water changes are the way to go.

As someone that HAS done manual water changes.... to 1000+ gallons of water every 2-3 days. I must ask. Does many people here know what that is like? What it costs? the time is takes? I doubt it. Only a few will know. Lets remind our selves that a drip system is basically a flow threw system.

Do we know WHY someone does a drip system over manual water changes?

A drip system is simply(in most cases) a way to PROLONG water changes by a massive amount of time. IF not eliminate them all together. What builds up in 2-3 days in a none dripped tank, takes 3-5 times that in a dripped tank.

I run drips of 3 systems currently. A 540 gallon tank(650gal system) with 2 small rays. A 250 gallons system with about 180 discus fry. A 170 gallon system with 4 pair of discus.

I still do water changes.... but not like i should have to for these systems. Obviously the ray tank is completely under stocked RIGHT NOW. But i will be adding about 50 discus and an asian arowana to that tank... once the rays grow out.. it will be heavily stocked to say the least. I still wont change a thing about that setup.

With the discus set ups... i was doing water changes daily. Now i do them weekly, if that. Nothing has changed. No trace of nitrates. Growth rates are the same. Anything else is constantly being diluted/replaced.

A drip with occasional water changes not only makes the hobby easier for people with large amounts of water... but it makes no difference from what i have found over the years. I also find my systems to be far more stable and consistent than those without. Everything changes much more slowly with a dripped tank.

These are not the only tanks i have dripped to. I bred rays in a tank that was dripped. HEAVY stocking. Even was the first to breed the boesemani ray in captivity in that tank. It was only a 300 gal system. 3 large rays and an large asian arowana.

Drips are also great safety nets.

I still do the occasional water changes as its only a drip. Things will build up slowly over time, most drips are not fast enough to eliminate water changes forever. BUT with the right system, and filtration.... they can be.

There are many benefits to the drip... i would never do a auto water changer. Too much can go wrong. Murphys law. :)

A drip is simple, cheap and easy to do. I see no reason not to have one if you can.

[uarujoey]

The one breeder setup that I saw was using what could be considered a drip system. Tap water was continuously flowing into all of the tanks and obviously draining at the same rate. The flow was relatively faster than what is implied by naming it a drip system. The entire fish room was at discus temperature. The PH obviously only fluctuates as the tap water fluctuates. I don't know if/how he contends with chlorine and chloramine.

A drip is just the name. Really, its a flow threw system. Most public aquariums use the same concept. To deal with chlorine... run it threw a carbon filter first(cheap canister used for tap drinking water)

From the sounds of it.. he obviously planned that room out nicely.

[Ryan]

Hi Joey,


It is easy for someone to come on here saying that they dont work, or not efficient or effective... while they sit staring at a 90 gallon tank(or what ever they have) claiming manual water changes are the way to go.

The thing is, a lot of people have done this over the years. I think there are a lot of factors to consider and the rate of success will depend on these.


I run drips of 3 systems currently. A 540 gallon tank(650gal system) with 2 small rays. A 250 gallons system with about 180 discus fry. A 170 gallon system with 4 pair of discus.

My question is, what about tanks with heavy stocking? For instance, what if I have 20 adult discus in a 200 gallon with two or three feedings a day? How much would you have to drip to keep the nitrates and DOCs down to a reasonable (nitrate <20ppm) level?


With the discus set ups... i was doing water changes daily. Now i do them weekly, if that. Nothing has changed. No trace of nitrates. Growth rates are the same. Anything else is constantly being diluted/replaced.

There's 0 nitrates in all the tanks, even the one with the juvenile discus? How much water is flowing through/dripping in the tank daily to keep that from happening?

I appreciate your input here. I don't doubt a system like that could be effective, but given the high bioload of discus, I'd assume that your drip system would have to be moving quite a bit of water to keep the DOCs and nitrates from building up fairly quickly. This is considering "typical" discus stocking of 1 fish per 10 gallons. Obviously if you have less fish and/or a larger tank you'd have to change less water. For instance, I have an adult pair in a 56 gallon and I only do one large water change a week (I do a quick daily siphon to remove waste from the bottom).

[Bilbo]

Interesting thread!

[dkeef]

Isnt 180 discus fry in 250 gallon high stock level?
Based on his videos, his frys look to be at least 2-3". Is it joey?

[Ryan]

Isnt 180 discus fry in 250 gallon high stock level?
Based on his videos, his frys look to be at least 2-3". Is it joey?

That is why I asked how much new water was passing through that grow-out tank every day. Zero nitrates with that many young fish would be quite a feat. Zero nitrates is a feat in any tank, really. It's the by-product of your biological filtration and so there should be some detectable levels in a heavily stocked tank, regardless of the water change method, unless you were changing a large volume of water throughout the day. Joey himself said that the levels would eventually build and require an additional water change.

[dkeef]

Well just to clarify myself and satisfy john, i am going to really do this auto wc change system. But do give me some time to order equipments and set up. May take as long as few months cuz i barely have time to feed discus and do wc as of now.
Also i still have 7 big discus from tony and josie in qt tank.
I wanna wait til i actually put all of them in main tank at least for a month to monitor nitrate level with usual feeding and weekly 80% water change.
That way i have something to compare auto wc nitrate level to.
Im assuming nitrate level is all i can use to determine whether this system works well.
Any other input?

[dkeef]

Btw, it would be great if someone else is willing to set up drip system and record results.
Joey, please tell us how much water is running thru each of your tanks. Any help would be appreciated.

[Crunchy]

In the july 2013 issue of practical fishkeeping magazine UK, there was a discus article where Mark Evenden of Devotedly discus, a UK breeder, talks about using the drip method thru a HMA filter, scheduled to change 10% water daily. He may still do a 25% water change weekly, but it does take away the manual 50% changes daily.

For the guys who insist that this can't be done, well look at the facts, there is guys like joey who have proven and done this, and also, magazine articles in UK showing how breeders also do this. In my humble opinion, this does show that the drip method works and is used by many successful discus keepers worldwide.

Now I agree that the definition of success is important. 99% of discus keepers dont aim to win a NaDA competiton, just like 99% of treadmill runners don't aim to win the olympics. Whether drip or manual water changes will produce the best competition grade discus is another topic for discussion. But if achieving success is being able to raise fry to 6inches+, get them to breed, and raise them well again with minimal health problems, then I believe for 99% of hobbyist except the most hardcore will consider this a success.

Now the caveat is this: 100% of able bodied adults are capable to do manual water changes every day. This ensures that that discus are happy and healthy with minimal risk. Not everyone however has the experience, knowledge, and capability to do an effective constant drip method. Perhaps 50% of people going thru this route may fail and give up, that doesn't mean we should just tell everyone to KISS and not try it because there is a high risk to fail.

I know that many wealthy households and offices have professionally done aquascapes. With the constant drip method, it does help more people to get into the discus hobby if they can afford a professionally installed system. Getting some guy to come 3 times a week is expensive and a hassle. Having s weekly maintenance crew makes it so much simpler.

And yes, I will be trying to make my own drip system, but not so soon. And I will post the results,

[dkeef]

when one argues that drip system in same water volume change is ineffective vs 1 large WC of same water volume then i think we can agree thats true.
However, most ppl who run drip system will probably increase the water turnover much more than doing manual wc.
this is where the drip system starts to become very effective. lets say u double or triple the amount of water volume vs manual wc...
yes it will waste more water, but some of us dont care. we would rather waste water to avoid doing more manual work.
lets see and find out guys.

[ericatdallas]

In the july 2013 issue of practical fishkeeping magazine UK, there was a discus article where Mark Evenden of Devotedly discus, a UK breeder, talks about using the drip method thru a HMA filter, scheduled to change 10% water daily. He may still do a 25% water change weekly, but it does take away the manual 50% changes daily.

Wait, so he's changing 10% daily with the drip method instead of 50% large WC daily?



Now the caveat is this: 100% of able bodied adults are capable to do manual water changes every day. This ensures that that discus are happy and healthy with minimal risk. Not everyone however has the experience, knowledge, and capability to do an effective constant drip method. Perhaps 50% of people going thru this route may fail and give up, that doesn't mean we should just tell everyone to KISS and not try it because there is a high risk to fail.



Why does an auto-WC have to be a drip system? I mean, if you're going to the trouble of such a system, you can have the best of both... do 50-75-100% WC automatically. My system isn't automatic only because I don't feel like running pipes (I move every 3-4 years). But from a push of a button, it pumps out 75% and from a push of a separate button it pumps in the rest of the water (that I have to watch because I haven't install a float).

What is it we consider manual?

...I don't think I "manually" do WC (except siphon aspect). I used to literally change 75% of a 75G growout tank with buckets twice a day and then fill it back with buckets. I walked the waste buckets about 35 feet to the yard (I watered plants) and then walked from the kitchen which was 40-45 feet with clean water. That's manual... and I don't think too many people on this forum do that.

[ericatdallas]

when one argues that drip system in same water volume change is ineffective vs 1 large WC of same water volume then i think we can agree thats true.
However, most ppl who run drip system will probably increase the water turnover much more than doing manual wc.
this is where the drip system starts to become very effective. lets say u double or triple the amount of water volume vs manual wc...
yes it will waste more water, but some of us dont care. we would rather waste water to avoid doing more manual work.
lets see and find out guys.

... actually, this topic is discussed quite often. One argument for large WC is to save water over constant/drip system for same effectiveness. I think the other points have been brought up as well. Although, like John says, no one has ever done follow-up with good results.

[dkeef]

nobody is saying auto water change has to be drip. its just that some do drip and like joey, some have been successful with it. but lot of ppl here dont agree.
i myself wont be doing drip system but small multiple wc system using controller, pump, float switchs, solenoid, emergency drain the whole thing...
by manual, i think most of us arent thinking using buckets. cuz hardly anyone does it that way and if u do, more power to ya...my back cant handle it.
i got a siphon pump connected to garden hose and python hose to pump water back in. i dont physically do any lifting other than placing hoses in and out of tank. but i still consider that manual work. what your doing is what i consider semi-automatic. but u still gotta be around to turn on and off water source so it aint fully automated system.
by automated system, u dont even have to be there and it will happen. some of us wanna see if that works for us.
now will we never ever do manual wc if we are fully automated? probably not...
but instead of daily, u do large wc weekly. instead of weekly, u do every other week or monthly large wcs. its to lessen the manual work mainly. not to replace it entirely.

[uarujoey]

Hi Joey,
The thing is, a lot of people have done this over the years. I think there are a lot of factors to consider and the rate of success will depend on these.

My question is, what about tanks with heavy stocking? For instance, what if I have 20 adult discus in a 200 gallon with two or three feedings a day? How much would you have to drip to keep the nitrates and DOCs down to a reasonable (nitrate <20ppm) level?

As mentioned in my reply, i had a ray tank with far larger stocking than a 200 gallon with 20 Discus. What would you feed adult discus up to 3 times a day? Even so, on any tank, i drip a minimum of 100% of the volume weekly. Due to drip emitters generally being in increments of 1gph.. you tend to drip a bit more than 100%.

On the tank you mentioned, i would drip 2GPH. Which is 336 gallons a week. That would equate to 168% water dripped weekly. I doubt a weekly water change would even be needed. Perhaps bi-weekly.


There's 0 nitrates in all the tanks, even the one with the juvenile discus? How much water is flowing through/dripping in the tank daily to keep that from happening?


Im dripping at the same rate as the above example. No less than 100%.



I appreciate your input here. I don't doubt a system like that could be effective, but given the high bioload of discus, I'd assume that your drip system would have to be moving quite a bit of water to keep the DOCs and nitrates from building up fairly quickly. This is considering "typical" discus stocking of 1 fish per 10 gallons. Obviously if you have less fish and/or a larger tank you'd have to change less water. For instance, I have an adult pair in a 56 gallon and I only do one large water change a week (I do a quick daily siphon to remove waste from the bottom).

Discus dont really high bio-loads, but freshwater rays have multitudes higher. Which is why i got into drips. Learning to deal with their needs and providing those needs really helped my discus side of the hobby.

I say discus dont have high bio-loads because that is a very vague statement. They are a sensitive fish, so we feel we need to keep their water pristine. It doesn't mean they have a high bio load(compared to what?). That is generally based on their high protein needs. BUT most feed a pellet/flake type food like we do most other fish. This changes drastically when we start feeding high protein foods... are conditioning them... or are growing them out.

In a regular tank... no intentions of breeding.. They are fed like any other fish really.



Isnt 180 discus fry in 250 gallon high stock level?
Based on his videos, his frys look to be at least 2-3". Is it joey?

Depends on the discus.... These are 4 tanks connected. The discus are all different ages. Biggest being 2.5"

I have discus fry about 1 month old in 2 small 15 gal tanks on top.
Middle tank is a 70 gal as a transition tank to cull/grow out to at least 2"

Bottom tank is 150 gal to grow out to 3-3.5".

My grow out only produces slightly more load than the breeding system. Yet much more water and twice the drip.

This is a consolidated system though. I am building a new fish room in my garage with 1000 gallons of tanks. So i tore down half of my grow out tanks to prepare for the move. They will be fine like this for a while, but i dont like it. lol



Joey, please tell us how much water is running thru each of your tanks. Any help would be appreciated.

170 gal breeding system gets dripped 1Gph(168 gallons a week.) Plus a weekly water change of 60-80%
250 ga; grow out gets dripped 2Gph (336 gallons a week) Plus a weekly water change of 60-80%
650 gal ray system get dripped 4Gph (672 gallons a week) Water changes are not needed.

[fredyx]

Well just to clarify myself and satisfy john, i am going to really do this auto wc change system. But do give me some time to order equipments and set up. May take as long as few months cuz i barely have time to feed discus and do wc as of now.
Also i still have 7 big discus from tony and josie in qt tank.
I wanna wait til i actually put all of them in main tank at least for a month to monitor nitrate level with usual feeding and weekly 80% water change.
That way i have something to compare auto wc nitrate level to.
Im assuming nitrate level is all i can use to determine whether this system works well.
Any other input?

You can use also the TDS (Total Disolved Solids) parameter. In theory, a system that does not accumulate waste will give you a constant measure of TDS. If TDS grows there is a build up of pollutants in water.´

[dkeef]

Yea ill get tds meter also then.

Joey u say that u can just use simple carbon filter for tap water but what about ppl with chloramine?
The normal carbon blocks dont remove chloramine and i checked with filter ppl. U have to use filter for chloramine but the cost per gallon for chloramine removal is very high.

Take a look at this filter sold by filterguysbiz

$22.00 - PENTEK CHLORPLUS-10 CHLORAMINE CARBON BLOCK STAGE TWO

CHLORAMINE AND CHLORINE WATER TREATMENT CARBON BLOCK FILTER
25,000 GALLONS CHLORINE 2,500 GALLONS CHLORAMINE

I plan to change 350-560 gal per week with auto changer and for chloramine removal, id have to replace every month.
So i was thinking set a timer to collect water then dispense safe and mix and use that water for wc.
I dont really need filter if this works.

Is there a better solution?

[Bilbo]

I find it quite interesting that some people are advocates for doing 100% water changes daily and their reasoning behind it being "In the amazon, where discus live, they are getting massive water changes every day."
This is NOT accurate nor is the comparison. I submit to you that not only does the natural habitat of a discus do not get anywhere close to a 100% water change a day, it is probably a lot closer to a fast drip system some hobbiest use. I don't believe mother nature is taking large amounts of water out of the river system and replacing it with rain water. The rains flood out it's water change. Sound familiar?
Now, I am in no way shape or form promoting drip systems. I think they can have their place but they are no WAY a replacement for big water changes unless you are dripping on the scale of Mother Nature. In fact I am not even replying to support one or the other. But I do believe there is more than one way to skin a cat and the reason I believe this is because I have done it. So many people swear up and down that you have to have massive water changes daily to grow out fry to their full potential. Naaa, simply not true. I have raised lots of discus babies to a good round and big size. My Red Alenquers I used to have were over 8 inches long. I had a male that was almost 9 inches and a female that was almost 8. I even crossed a White Butterfly male to one of my Red Alenquer females and got some HIDEOUS looking fry but they still grew massive and had a nice round shape to them. Their color was aweful. All this was done on a drip system and a 20% water change weekly. I don't believe in having to "wipe down" the sides of the tank and a lot of the other overkill that I see some people do as far as the health of the discus is concerned either. Discus are hardy cichlids when you give them what they need. And what they need is tank water that is absent of ammonia and nitrite and no nitrates if possible. Minimal nitrates does nothing to them. The water column needs to be void of biological particles which tend to benefit harmful bacteria. If you can do this then water changes can be done once a week or even once every two weeks. Two weeks was also PLENTY enough for me to remove hormones and other growth retardant chemicals that arguably the fry give off. I have done this for YEARS with excellent results on my discus, angels, flowerhorns, rams and other various hardy as well as finicky, frail cichlids. It's not hard. Clean water is what they want. Body slime from a discus? The beneficial bacteria will help with that if you have a well established filter bed. All you need to do is apply a 'prefilter' sponge to the main filter intake and rinse it out every 2 days or so. This prevents larger organics from getting in and gunking up the main filter media. This will also help keep the water column of the tank stripped of free floating organics. Anyway, that's my two cents. Like the hodgetwins say...."This is all advice, do whatever the #@*! you want ta do." Well they don't say it like that but I ain't going to repeat what they really say. lol

[White Worm]

So far, no one is doing a fully automated system and most are a long way from the bucket brigade. The point is to make life easier for the discus and the hobbyist which means automate as much as possible but everyone agrees that there is still the need for manual input and still a need for large water changes. Fully automated would be like your sprinkler system watering your lawn during the week on certain days for a set time while you are away for a month. The only debate is how much and when....that is decided by the individual based on goals and outcomes.

[Bilbo]

Good answer Mike!

[Chicago Discus]

We get asked all the time if our hatchery is automated and the answer is no. We change water in all the tank except the three hundred everyday with a siphone and a 55g brute container connected to a pump. But the siphoning is done by hand and mouth LOL. We have 40 tanks that get mantinence everyday. Some get 20% some get 100% depending on the size and stock level of the tank. Automatic water changes would be much easier and less time consuming but at the moment we do it old school. Is it better I have no idea, its just what we do. Myself and MS are no spring chickens so maybe in the future we will look into a more automated system. But for now we really like the results of doing it by hand.......Josie

[dkeef]

Well josie your way is def working cuz your fish are beautiful.
Just more of a preference.
I always want the latest things in dentistry which makes my work easier and more accurate. But sometimes im stuck in situations where i got limited tools. Just takes longer and more pain my *** but it can certainly work.

Josie, since u have piwowski discus, do u import from him directly?
His website shows very hightech automation. Can u find out more info?

[uarujoey]

Yea ill get tds meter also then.

Joey u say that u can just use simple carbon filter for tap water but what about ppl with chloramine?
The normal carbon blocks dont remove chloramine and i checked with filter ppl. U have to use filter for chloramine but the cost per gallon for chloramine removal is very high.

Take a look at this filter sold by filterguysbiz

$22.00 - PENTEK CHLORPLUS-10 CHLORAMINE CARBON BLOCK STAGE TWO

CHLORAMINE AND CHLORINE WATER TREATMENT CARBON BLOCK FILTER
25,000 GALLONS CHLORINE 2,500 GALLONS CHLORAMINE

I plan to change 350-560 gal per week with auto changer and for chloramine removal, id have to replace every month.
So i was thinking set a timer to collect water then dispense safe and mix and use that water for wc.
I dont really need filter if this works.

Is there a better solution?

I would first check with your water supply to see if it is even treated with chloramine. I know my local city supply doesn't.

your looking at around 6 weeks of use out of that filter if so. For $22.00 and you save 3-6 hours of time... i'd say its well worth it.

Call your local water supply first.. see what they are even treating it with.

[Ryan]

FYI, some municipalities will treat with one for most of the year then occasionally do a flush with another. My city uses chloramine now but a few times a year they flush the lines with regular chlorine. You may ask if they ever flush the lines with something out of the ordinary.

[dkeef]

Already verified that chloramine is used.
Is there any filters out there that can run 10000+ gal of chloramine?

[rcomeau]

Is there any filters out there that can run 10000+ gal of chloramine?
Here is one (http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-reverse-osmosis-chloramines-monster.html) that indicates that it will last for 75000.

I decided to use Prime (http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html) when I was considering such a design for automatically changing water.

[musicmarn1]

+1

not just a rope, they need a pen and paper to write down a plan.

I have to go back 5 months ago to when I wanted to raise discus in a planted from 2 inches..... DOING it for a few months in bob whilst making planted tanks for bigger ones, ( I did put two 5 " in a 55 planted because they were growing faster and bullying the others, I also got a bigger main bob grow out tank 125g ). What I'm saying is THANKYOU for the acid comments at the time, I'm super sensitive and it hurt my feelings. But I listened and made fewer mistakes with my fish which hurt them less, more importantly. I bought sponsor fish and am learning more and more. But this debate and others DOES teach! So it might be tiresome but keep the kind comments AND the acid ones coming please.

Too much kindness here would kill a lot more fish.

[dkeef]

Here is one (http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-reverse-osmosis-chloramines-monster.html) that indicates that it will last for 75000.

I decided to use Prime (http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html) when I was considering such a design for automatically changing water.

That filtering of 75000 sounds too good to be true but then price reflects it. U think it can be used with carbon filter and not ro and still be that effective?

Can u tell me how u incorporate prime? So u dont have filter?

[lipadj46]

That filtering of 75000 sounds too good to be true but then price reflects it. U think it can be used with carbon filter and not ro and still be that effective?

Can u tell me how u incorporate prime? So u dont have filter?

They do make dosing pumps. You can do the math and inject the prime inline or to your storage barrel. There are DIY dosing pumps you can make from pretty cheap parts. Theplantedtank would be the place with that info

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

[rcomeau]

Can u tell me how u incorporate prime? So u dont have filter?
I made my dosing pump from a $14 12v DC head (http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-DC-Dosing-pump-Peristaltic-dosing-Head-For-Aquarium-Lab-Analytical-water-DIY-/190878289751?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c713b8f57) mounted to a AC to 12v DC converter. It pumps at 1 ml/sec. Here is the code that runs it...
digitalWrite(11, LOW); delay(6000); digitalWrite(11, HIGH); Serial.println("Dosed Prime for 6 sec");
http://rycomeau01.home.comcast.net/~rycomeau01/fishtank/pump_head.JPGhttp://rycomeau01.home.comcast.net/~rycomeau01/fishtank/dosing_pump.JPG http://rycomeau01.home.comcast.net/~rycomeau01/fishtank/bins.JPG

[Chicago Discus]

Well josie your way is def working cuz your fish are beautiful.
Just more of a preference.
I always want the latest things in dentistry which makes my work easier and more accurate. But sometimes im stuck in situations where i got limited tools. Just takes longer and more pain my *** but it can certainly work.

Josie, since u have piwowski discus, do u import from him directly?
His website shows very hightech automation. Can u find out more info?

Sure we are going to talk in a few days for a new order I will ask him about his system.....Josie

[Discusdude7]

Sure we are going to talk in a few days for a new order I will ask him about his system.....Josie

New order :O
Would be great if you could get some RSGs *hint* *hint* lol

[sheaspina]

I don't see why an "automatic" system has to be a drip. You can still automate a system to dump & refill 80% per. go. Obviously you'll still have to do the pooper scooper routine, but if you can cut your actual daily manual labor from siphoning & refilling 10 tanks to flipping a switch (or timer) & a quick vacuum, why not?

[OC Discus]

Most of the great historical inventions were opposed and ridiculed by those who favored the old way. The tractor for instance. The computer- who would ever want one of those at home? "Necessity is the Mother of Invention" Ben Franklin

Keef, when you patent your new automatic water change system, post a link to where we can buy it.


Not sure if i mentioned im gonna do drip system but im not gonna do drip.
My goal is automated wc but want to find out if small 8gal at a time wc can be sufficient or large 80-100 gal has to be done.
Maybe strawberry can try drip system only and ill add to comparing frequent small auto wcs vs larger wc.

I was sent this info from other members.
http://www.diskuszucht-piwowarski.de/Facility.html

[OC Discus]

Some people are just plain rude. There is no point arguing with them. They think they know everything and you can't convince them otherwise.


Its not a crime to throw some ideas back and forth. If it bothers ppl then please look away.
Id appreciate it. Thanks.

[Bilbo]

I don't do any where NEAR the amount of water changes that people here do and my discus, rams and flowerhorns do awesome. Water stays at 0-0-0 and everything is peachy. Algae is our friend around this house, though, and the techniques we have developed round here, well, I like them just fine. I do a water change once a week in all our tanks and vats; we have discus fry growing out with ram fry and I can't make any of them stop spawning and growing; on schedule to have some 3 1/2- 4 inch ram. Serious as a heart attack....

[OC Discus]

Post a thread with pics of the 4" rams


I don't do any where NEAR the amount of water changes that people here do and my discus, rams and flowerhorns do awesome. Water stays at 0-0-0 and everything is peachy. Algae is our friend around this house, though, and the techniques we have developed round here, well, I like them just fine. I do a water change once a week in all our tanks and vats; we have discus fry growing out with ram fry and I can't make any of them stop spawning and growing; on schedule to have some 3 1/2- 4 inch ram. Serious as a heart attack....

[Bilbo]

Did already. Topic is in Discus tank mates. I'll post some more I just snapped right now too.

[discus510]

Got a question... Why does automatic water change system need to be drop system?? Can't it be with a drain pipe on an electronic ball valve and it open drain water and have float valve with pump that power on automatically and pushes water bak into tank till water is to top

[Indyplanted]

There are a lot of different ways to do it. I run a water sprinkler timer on a 2gph drip. On for 4 hours 2x's a day.

[discussmith]

An electric ball valve with a size large enough to gravity feed out water rather quickly is expensive. That's why you see people using sprinkler valves. They are quite inexpensive. They can't be used for emptying though as they require pressure to operate properly. The systems I use are basically turn key but I would never run them without being present. A failure of a float switch or a valve and you could have a tank with little water left in it or one that has been overfilled until your storage runs dry. I have built in as much safety as possible but nothing is fool proof. Top level equipment is costly so to keep cost and complexity down choices have to be made.

[nc0gnet0]

A failure of a float switch or a valve and you could have a tank with little water left in it or one that has been overfilled until your storage runs dry.

Which is why automatic systems are seldom employed. In theory, it can be done and work quite nicely, trouble is it might work 364 days our of the year correctly, but that one day it doesn't and all your fish are dead.

Yuu could automate it to the point where the turn of several mechanical valves drains the tanks to a pre-set level, then closed the valves and fill the tanks in the same fashion and save tons of time if you have multiple tanks, but I would not trust any system in which I was not there monitoring the process in case something went wrong (and eventually it always does).

[dkeef]

good point.

[musicmarn1]

Just re reading this entire thread and urjoey got a fan for life with this thread!! I want a fully planted 230g only this time I did my months of due dilligence with bb set up to learn discus keeping first and started with 55g tanks and went up. Hhsband hates tbe maint, so just want to make comprimise a little or else do another fish in the 230g

Thankyou for contributing everyone, deeply appreciate tried and true as well as modern tweaks :)





I have tanks with drip systems. I drip to over 1000 gallons of tanks every day. I will be doubling that number in the next few months.

It is easy for someone to come on here saying that they dont work, or not efficient or effective... while they sit staring at a 90 gallon tank(or what ever they have) claiming manual water changes are the way to go.

As someone that HAS done manual water changes.... to 1000+ gallons of water every 2-3 days. I must ask. Does many people here know what that is like? What it costs? the time is takes? I doubt it. Only a few will know. Lets remind our selves that a drip system is basically a flow threw system.

Do we know WHY someone does a drip system over manual water changes?

A drip system is simply(in most cases) a way to PROLONG water changes by a massive amount of time. IF not eliminate them all together. What builds up in 2-3 days in a none dripped tank, takes 3-5 times that in a dripped tank.

I run drips of 3 systems currently. A 540 gallon tank(650gal system) with 2 small rays. A 250 gallons system with about 180 discus fry. A 170 gallon system with 4 pair of discus.

I still do water changes.... but not like i should have to for these systems. Obviously the ray tank is completely under stocked RIGHT NOW. But i will be adding about 50 discus and an asian arowana to that tank... once the rays grow out.. it will be heavily stocked to say the least. I still wont change a thing about that setup.

With the discus set ups... i was doing water changes daily. Now i do them weekly, if that. Nothing has changed. No trace of nitrates. Growth rates are the same. Anything else is constantly being diluted/replaced.

A drip with occasional water changes not only makes the hobby easier for people with large amounts of water... but it makes no difference from what i have found over the years. I also find my systems to be far more stable and consistent than those without. Everything changes much more slowly with a dripped tank.

These are not the only tanks i have dripped to. I bred rays in a tank that was dripped. HEAVY stocking. Even was the first to breed the boesemani ray in captivity in that tank. It was only a 300 gal system. 3 large rays and an large asian arowana.

Drips are also great safety nets.

I still do the occasional water changes as its only a drip. Things will build up slowly over time, most drips are not fast enough to eliminate water changes forever. BUT with the right system, and filtration.... they can be.

There are many benefits to the drip... i would never do a auto water changer. Too much can go wrong. Murphys law. :)

A drip is simple, cheap and easy to do. I see no reason not to have one if you can.

[s14swap240sx]

my solution to auto water change / drip

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/S14Swap240sx/44AA1185-888E-4D0D-A2A9-616B2AE50F51_zpsteqzmxeo.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/S14Swap240sx/media/44AA1185-888E-4D0D-A2A9-616B2AE50F51_zpsteqzmxeo.jpg.html)

stenner 170dmp5

http://www.uswatersystems.com/systems/stenner-pumps/pumps/stenner-classic-fixed-rate-dual-head-pumps/stenner170dmp5-double-head-fixed-output-low-pressure-pump.html

I exchange about 20 gallons of water a day with the ability to do 85 gallons a day. It does fill a little faster then it removes but instead of dialing down the flow I use the extra water in my sump to siphon the bottom of the tank, 3-4 gallons worth with out having to power down my tank. and if I siphon below the normal operating level my spectapure ato system will top off the tank to where I have it set to on its own.

The time it takes me to siphon 3-4 gallons allows me to siphon one side of the tank thoroughly since its barebottom. I just pick the side that looks like its dirtier. For a larger tank, I would have no issues depending on two of these to help maintain the tank while im at work or doing other things.

[jazzon]

1. Poor hobbyist like myself usually renting or living in small apartment, therefore plumbing or drilling into walls are simply not possible!
2. Some of my friend choose not to set up automatic water changes system cos they would get more time bonding with their discus.
3. Even when I have the space and the cash, I simply don't have enough brain power to understand how its done! lol I have recently finish my Herbie Overflow system and my brain still hurting from it.

[Miamiheat]

very interesting thread. Also looking to make it easier on myself. currently using pumps to put water in or out that i operate via remote control outlet. still can be messy as i tend to get distracted and 2 days ago my 450 liter was 1mm literally from overflowing.
constraints at the moment:
i have to move the pumps around with 10 meters of hoses all over the living room and kitchen
renting apartment so cannot be drilling holes in walls or use balcony drain (long story).
5 discus tanks representing 1100 liters and 3 barrels used to age water that can cumulate about 460l.
thinking of a drip (more of a flow than a drip), but need a solution to deal with waste water.
I saw a few posts of users mentioning their system: i would love if everyone could share the exact setups/layouts and pics: that would be very helpful to a lot of newbies like me.
thanks a lot. Joey I am a big fan i have implemented the overhead sump and adding plants into it, and i built my first stand: its only the beginning!

[Miamiheat]

I don't do any where NEAR the amount of water changes that people here do and my discus, rams and flowerhorns do awesome. Water stays at 0-0-0 and everything is peachy. Algae is our friend around this house, though, and the techniques we have developed round here, well, I like them just fine. I do a water change once a week in all our tanks and vats; we have discus fry growing out with ram fry and I can't make any of them stop spawning and growing; on schedule to have some 3 1/2- 4 inch ram. Serious as a heart attack....

hi can you elaborate more on your system? the mention to algae caught my attention. thanks!

[Jimambroz]

I drilled each tank and installed a stand pipe inside , have the same set up as an under ground yard sprinkler system. Adds water for as long as I want, 30 minutes. A valve closes and the over flow goes down the drain line and out the house. Valve opens and water goes into the sump/filter under the setup. Standard sprinkler setup is 6 "stations" each tank has a valve that I can adjust flow in, stutter off if tank has fry, they seem to like to go for the ride of death. The stuff from wife's counting cross stitch ( plastic screen) works wonders. It works well, would like to drill second hole 2 inches up from tank floor that would drain down all water, but the 2 inches and valve closes a bank of tanks, then refilled , you are right hard to explain and this plumbing keeps me thinking on how to omprove

[uarujoey]

Just re reading this entire thread and uarjoey got a fan for life with this thread!!

Thanks. I appreciate the support. I rarely get to elaborate or discuss much outside of an "Algorithm friendly" video. So this is my pleasure.

PS: Looks like you are in Colorado? I'll actually be in Denver from the 28th-31st of this month for MACNA. You should consider stopping in and saying Hi!


1. Poor hobbyist like myself usually renting or living in small apartment, therefore plumbing or drilling into walls are simply not possible!


Noted... considered... and did it.

I got together with Bulk reef supply and did a challenge video. I put my own additional spin on it and came up with a project on how to have a drip system without drilling your tank, without making changes to your house, without having a drain for excess water, without needing a constant water supply, and keeping it up $150.

The point was to get people thinking outside the box. It worked.


Joey I am a big fan i have implemented the overhead sump and adding plants into it, and i built my first stand: its only the beginning!

Awesome! And thanks, glad to have you not only as a spectator but as a practitioner as well. PS: Just as a warning, the plants in the overhead sump is just a very small introduction into aquaponics. I have some really cool projects coming out soon that will really bring that into the hobby more mainstream.

[DLFL]

uarujoey, how about a link to this?



I got together with Bulk reef supply and did a challenge video. I put my own additional spin on it and came up with a project on how to have a drip system without drilling your tank, without making changes to your house, without having a drain for excess water, without needing a constant water supply, and keeping it up $150.

[uarujoey]

uarujoey, how about a link to this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtekO7RRRcA

[DLFL]

thank you!

[Tres]

Thanks for doing this thread dkeef, and for various reasons I'm next intending to include a drip system, at the very least. That's not necessarily in lieu of WC's, but I need a fail-safe backup option for when I'm not available to do WC's or am away.

Can you perhaps fill us in better on your equipment list, costs of each item, a diagram of how it works, and/or photos?

I'm looking for a safe simple option, though a lot of auto-waterchangers seem incredibly complicated and fraught with many potential points of failure. It seems there should be the potential to simplify this considerably. Someone had joked earlier about it, but toilet flushing mechanisms seem to have a far superior track record of not causing catastrophic floods in houses compared to hobbyist auto-waterchangers. And I'm not necessarily seeing a reason why the same hardware for instance couldn't be incorporated into an easy/automated system which is safe and reliable. (I could plumb/overflow direct to a drain).

I've seen videos as well of one guy's auto change system which works via an overflow. When the timer triggers it, it cuts the electricity to filters and pumps to stop tank circulation, new water is gently filled in at a temperature 1-2 degrees lower than tank temperature and therefore stays at the bottom of the tank and pushes the older water up and out of the overflow. And that is for a reef tank where stability of parameters is paramount. (I doubt many discus keepers manage to get their new water any closer than 2 degrees of the existing tank water anyway). I haven't carried out computation fluid dynamics modelling, of course, but I suspect the same strategy could achieve say a 50% water change while relying purely upon an overflow to remove old tank water.

I am however liking the idea of having a tank bottom angled down to a grated drainage point to automatically remove all detritus as well...

[dkeef]

I truly was planning on auto drip system but then found out the cost of electricity to keep water warm all the time from cold water dripping has made me decide not to.
I did simply the wc to pressing buttons and hooking up hose from aging water storage so it takes me very little effort.
But if one has house water heater where u can drip warm water or electric cost is not an issue then I would drip like Joey

[dbfzurowski]

Hi there :)
Its kinda getting old hearing that it can't be done or it doesn't work... I've had some kind of a fish tank for about 22 years now, discus about 5 years now.

I've had my auto wc up and running for about 8 months now. 125Gal tank, 55Gal sump with 20Gal WC everyday. Someone posted a chart on how the nitrate builds up unless you do 100% WC. Well, my system does ~9% daily and after 8 months nitrate is at 20ppm... Its not overstocked but has a decent number of fish; 5 adult discus, 5 young red heads, 40-60 tetras, green phantom pleco, golden nugget pleco ,bristlenose pleco, 2 German blue rams and 2 cory cats.
Expensive electric water valve? $35 on ebay + $10 24V transformer.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-4-Electric-Solenoid-Valve-24-Volt-AC-Air-Water-B21V-/290579694395
Float valve was about the same.

Think I paid more in plumbing then anything else. People say it doesn't work? I haven't wiped inside of the tank or siphoned the sand once. Clean the micro sock once every 2 weeks or so.
I truly believe that good filtration is key! If I had a 55Gal with 2 sponge filters this system would not work. Sorry but I am not a fan of sponge filters. You still need to do 100% WC with them? Whats the point?
I have two pairs in my tank that spawn regularly so I guess it can't be that bad.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?113394-120-Gal-Aquarium-build-Diy-sump-stand-overflow-LED-lighting-and-full-auto-WC

Don't mean to start s*** here but new discus people come here and are told that auto WC doesn't work. I think new discus keepers would benefit the most! I know I would, I know my fish would when I started.

[nc0gnet0]

Those same people would tell you that 20 ppm nitrate is to high....just saying.


I truly believe that good filtration is key

Removing the waste from the water stream is the key, not just removing it from your sight, sticking it some type of filter material and having the water filter through this waste.......

[Len]

Hi there :)
Its kinda getting old hearing that it can't be done or it doesn't work... I've had some kind of a fish tank for about 22 years now, discus about 5 years now.

I've had my auto wc up and running for about 8 months now. 125Gal tank, 55Gal sump with 20Gal WC everyday. Someone posted a chart on how the nitrate builds up unless you do 100% WC. Well, my system does ~9% daily and after 8 months nitrate is at 20ppm... Its not overstocked but has a decent number of fish; 5 adult discus, 5 young red heads, 40-60 tetras, green phantom pleco, golden nugget pleco ,bristlenose pleco, 2 German blue rams and 2 cory cats.
Expensive electric water valve? $35 on ebay + $10 24V transformer.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-4-Electric-Solenoid-Valve-24-Volt-AC-Air-Water-B21V-/290579694395
Float valve was about the same.

Think I paid more in plumbing then anything else. People say it doesn't work? I haven't wiped inside of the tank or siphoned the sand once. Clean the micro sock once every 2 weeks or so.
I truly believe that good filtration is key! If I had a 55Gal with 2 sponge filters this system would not work. Sorry but I am not a fan of sponge filters. You still need to do 100% WC with them? Whats the point?
I have two pairs in my tank that spawn regularly so I guess it can't be that bad.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?113394-120-Gal-Aquarium-build-Diy-sump-stand-overflow-LED-lighting-and-full-auto-WC

Don't mean to start s*** here but new discus people come here and are told that auto WC doesn't work. I think new discus keepers would benefit the most! I know I would, I know my fish would when I started.

The formula you are referring to regarding WC volume is flawed. It would only be accurate if the were no biological filtration happening. That being said, 20ppm nitrate is high and something as simple as siphoning the sand regularly would improve that greatly. If you haven't siphoned it in that long you'd be surprised how much stuff was trapped in it. The other thing to be careful of is if it is deep enough it will become anaerobic so you'd want to siphon it carefully and not disturb it too much until it is clean or risk stirring up nasties into the water column.

[Ryan]

There are some cichlids who would end up with HITH if nitrates stayed 20ppm for extended periods of time.

[kris2341]

20ppm with that kind of low stocking level and that quantity of wasted water sounds insane. I personally would stick to the more traditional methods otherwise. 9% a day without touching the substrate, I may as well siphon the tank weekly and drain 60-70% water and get a greater amount of clean.

Vacuuming and general maintenance can be done in a way that isnt strenuous since the tank looks like it has a drain built in since you are showing a solenoid, just modify it so you can hook a siphon to it and just wave it around inside. some substrate siphoning is better than none at all until the thing goes anaerobic and you have to totally stir everything up and drain ALL the water out.

[bluelagoon]

Most of folks have their tanks in living quarters;mine are in my living room.It must look hideous with all the hoses,especially if your living in an apt.Might be great for basements or outside sheds.At some point you'll need to change 100% of the water anyways.

[jawfish]

Hi there :)
Its kinda getting old hearing that it can't be done or it doesn't work... I've had some kind of a fish tank for about 22 years now, discus about 5 years now.

I've had my auto wc up and running for about 8 months now. 125Gal tank, 55Gal sump with 20Gal WC everyday. Someone posted a chart on how the nitrate builds up unless you do 100% WC. Well, my system does ~9% daily and after 8 months nitrate is at 20ppm... Its not overstocked but has a decent number of fish; 5 adult discus, 5 young red heads, 40-60 tetras, green phantom pleco, golden nugget pleco ,bristlenose pleco, 2 German blue rams and 2 cory cats.
Expensive electric water valve? $35 on ebay + $10 24V transformer.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-4-Electric-Solenoid-Valve-24-Volt-AC-Air-Water-B21V-/290579694395
Float valve was about the same.

Think I paid more in plumbing then anything else. People say it doesn't work? I haven't wiped inside of the tank or siphoned the sand once. Clean the micro sock once every 2 weeks or so.
I truly believe that good filtration is key! If I had a 55Gal with 2 sponge filters this system would not work. Sorry but I am not a fan of sponge filters. You still need to do 100% WC with them? Whats the point?
I have two pairs in my tank that spawn regularly so I guess it can't be that bad.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?113394-120-Gal-Aquarium-build-Diy-sump-stand-overflow-LED-lighting-and-full-auto-WC

Don't mean to start s*** here but new discus people come here and are told that auto WC doesn't work. I think new discus keepers would benefit the most! I know I would, I know my fish would when I started.

Thanks Dominik for the link, this is the type of valves I want to experience with.

[Tres]

I truly was planning on auto drip system but then found out the cost of electricity to keep water warm all the time from cold water dripping has made me decide not to.
I did simply the wc to pressing buttons and hooking up hose from aging water storage so it takes me very little effort.
But if one has house water heater where u can drip warm water or electric cost is not an issue then I would drip like Joey

I wasn't quite clear how you were talking about preheating the water. With a reservoir system I would have thought it was just a matter of sticking an extra aquarium water heater in that, which should take less electricity than your tank's heater. And with a continuous drip system even, you could just fill a 5 gallon bucket with coils of the supply line tubing, water, and put a heater there so that the warmed bucket water would warm the incoming water passing through the supply line, to act as a heat exchanger. Had you been thinking of some other type of system or were you thinking that it would take a lot of electricity or gas to heat the incoming water up?

[dbfzurowski]

Sorry, guess I wasn't clear about the sand. I do not siphon it because there is no debris on top of it with my overflow sucking up water from the bottom of the tank. I stir the sand every 1-2 weeks to prevent anaerobic build up even tho I only keep the sand at about 1.5-2".
My tap is around 20ppm nitrate and never had problems with Discus. I'm new to red heads so hopefully I wont have HITH issues.

Jawfish,

If you do get one, make sure its a normally closed valve. Meaning it opens when energized. Everything always has to be power failure proof.


Kris,

Not everyone has time for manual tank maintenance. 60% WC on a 180Gal system would take to long. This works for me and my fish.

[dellis]

i have read this thread and lots of research is anyone doing this i have started one but i also do about a 90% water change twice a week
i know the large wc are great. but is there any real benefit to my 25 gallon a day change on my auto changer

tank is 125 gallon with a 75 gallon sump holding about 50 gallons

[Fishquake]

I use a drip system on my fry tanks running 24/7. In my opinion, fry are fairly sensitive to changes in pH and temperature which can occur with a wholesale water change, with a drip system any change will occur over a period of time and reduce stress. Having said that. the fry tanks are vacuumed twice a day. After vacuuming, water will enter the tank faster until the float valve is activated. So far, so good.

[HappyFace]

I love the drip system. I've had one in place for 7 months so far. My water parameters are always perfect. I change out my fine filter media pads every 2 days and vacuum/blowout debris with a jet 2x's daily. My drip system wastes the same amount of water as a python and it is less stressful for the fish (no large fluctuating PH or up and down water levels). I've had 3 spawnings occur in the last 2 weeks, one discus that arrived a little peppered on the nose lost their spots within 24 hours and my angelfish have grown 3/4" in 18 days. Everyone appears to be thriving.

[FishFanMan]

I can/won't install a drain and supply line to my tank in my family room. I don't have juvies anymore and with a nitrate reactor I'm doing OK with a BIG WC once a week.

[warblad79]

I love the drip system. I've had one in place for 7 months so far. My water parameters are always perfect. I change out my fine filter media pads every 2 days and vacuum/blowout debris with a jet 2x's daily. My drip system wastes the same amount of water as a python and it is less stressful for the fish (no large fluctuating PH or up and down water levels). I've had 3 spawnings occur in the last 2 weeks, one discus that arrived a little peppered on the nose lost their spots within 24 hours and my angelfish have grown 3/4" in 18 days. Everyone appears to be thriving.

How do you clean the waste?

[HappyFace]

How do you clean the waste?

Pretty much the same as everyone else. I have 2 aquariums and both have sumps with a drip system setup. One of my sumps has two 7" filter socks that I change out every 2 days for clean ones. The other sump has a fine filter pad that I change out daily. I never change out the bioballs and other biomedia. They hold all my beneficial bacteria. I clean my sump bottom every month. I vacuum or blowout waste (with a powerhead) from the aquarium bottom once daily.

A drip system doesn't replace cleaning it just means you no longer have hoses running through your house, no more water tanks for aging water, no more accidentally flooding your house because you forgot the water is running, no more worrying about fluctuations in PH, lowering and raising the water level in the tank and stressing the fish out, less time working and more time enjoying your fish.

The drip system only works if you test your water and accomidate for any deficiencies. My water is near perfect except there is chlorine and pesticide runoff from local AG so I have a carbon prefilter that I change out weekly. If your tap water is high in nitrates, tds, extremely hard (over 8?), etc. you may need extra filtration before the water enters into your sump/aquarium.

[Cosmo]

I've know a lot of very knowledgeable people that swear by drip systems. I had one setup in a 4 tank breeder system I constructed several years back but ended up shutting down my fishroom before I really got it started :( I have the capability of setting up a drip system in my big tank except I currently don't have an overflow. My tanks have Eurotops so a standard overflow and sump system won't work, but next time I do a heavy clean I'm going to drill another hole for another bulkhead and use that to make an overflow. I have a 3/4" pvc pipe going from under the tank to the basement drain I could tap into, and I normally pump up water from the basement anyway. A couple of timers and I'd be in business. It wouldn't be a true drip but it would replace the water in a similar fashion.

I always plumb in drains, but as said above they don't replace cleaning since the feces usually doesn't cooperate :p But I do like them for small WCs, or if I need to drain the tank I don' thave to use a python and wait all day. When I had ten tanks they really came in handy at WC time cause I could have more than 1 tank in play during cleaning time.

I also have an auto shutoff on the fill line from the basement to my big tank upstairs so once the tank is full to a set level the basement pump turns off - of course I installed that just after I had a 100+gal water spill .. funny how that works :bandana:

[warblad79]

Pretty much the same as everyone else. I have 2 aquariums and both have sumps with a drip system setup. One of my sumps has two 7" filter socks that I change out every 2 days for clean ones. The other sump has a fine filter pad that I change out daily. I never change out the bioballs and other biomedia. They hold all my beneficial bacteria. I clean my sump bottom every month. I vacuum or blowout waste (with a powerhead) from the aquarium bottom once daily.

A drip system doesn't replace cleaning it just means you no longer have hoses running through your house, no more water tanks for aging water, no more accidentally flooding your house because you forgot the water is running, no more worrying about fluctuations in PH, lowering and raising the water level in the tank and stressing the fish out, less time working and more time enjoying your fish.

The drip system only works if you test your water and accomidate for any deficiencies. My water is near perfect except there is chlorine and pesticide runoff from local AG so I have a carbon prefilter that I change out weekly. If your tap water is high in nitrates, tds, extremely hard (over 8?), etc. you may need extra filtration before the water enters into your sump/aquarium.

Do you know what's the ratio of growth rate for juvies using drip system?

[HappyFace]

Do you know what's the ratio of growth rate for juvies using drip system?

I'm not sure. I bought all adult discus 6+" for my tank. I did purchase a 2.5" angel that grew 3/4" in 18 days feeding only 3xs a day. I'm not sure if thats good or just average. I couldn't find any info on the internet about angel fish growth rates. He actually seems bigger today than yesterday. For the first time he hand fed this afternoon. I think he considers himself one of the big guys now.

If you prefilter/treat the water when necessary and feed good and often then I'm sure your growth rates will be excellent.

[Darrell Ward]

If you have a fish room setup, it's far more effective to plumb the tanks to a common sump, and just drain and refill the sump, never touching your tanks water level, except for tank vacs. You can close one valve to stop return flow to the tanks, and open another valve to drain the sump. When the sump is drained, close the sump drain valve, and open the valve on storage tank, and plug in the pump. When refilled, close the valve on the storage tank, unplug the pump, and open the return line going to the tank.
It doesn't get any easier than that IMO.

[Jack L]

Got a question. So a heavily planted tank like mine where so much plants covers all substrates and with lack of siphoning, is it guarantee that water will continue to go bad regardless of water changes?

Wouldnt the detritus become plant food and not accumulate?

If done in balance, but plants don't consume the quantity like people hope

[RDFISHGUY]

Joey and my friend Brett inspired me about 6 yrs ago to set up an automatic system. Originally I had controllers, float switches, and dosing pumps for chloramine, and it wasn't the most user friendly system. I also had a few equipment failures that led me to install a Pelican whole home water filtration system. I then drilled an overflow in the sump and ran it to a floor drain. Installed a hot and cold tap with a "Y" hose going into the sump. I simply turn the tap to the desired flow and temp and let water flow. I haven't done a water change on my arowanas and rays for 6 yrs other than when I upgraded their tanks.
I also noticed that when I ran out of Prime, in the dosing container, that the fish weren't really affected (prior to installing the Pelican system). The system could deal with the chloramine, at least for a short time, with seemingly little affect on the fish. I'm not telling you go and dump chlorinated water into an unestablished aquarium but rather trying to show you that a drip system is more forgiving than large volume water changes in my personal experience. Several times I unintentionally let the chloramine removing agent run out and never lost a single fish. I lost a motoro ray about 7 yrs ago when the check valve failed on a chlorine dosing bucket and dumped a whole jug into the system but I had a poor set-up and chaulk that up to human error. In the past 6 yrs things have gone fairly smooth....but that just means it works on rays and aros. I haven't tried it with discus yet but I am trading my BDL ray for more discus and selling my gold xb arowana and turning their 280 gallon into a discus tank at some point in the near future. Stay tuned.

[Smendez]

If done in balance, but plants don't consume the quantity like people hope

I have put ridiculous amounts of plants in my planted tank, and the nitrates still got way high. I even let the algae go crazy in the sump. I guess I just had too many fish.

[Rex82]

Hi Ross,

I don`t use single sponge filters in each aquarium.

I use a central filter for all aquariums and this filter is filled with sponge.

I also change 20-30 % of the water every day, so that the nitrate level is about 50 mg/liter.

The fluidized and nexus filters are good for the water quality, but I think it is better, when you add some sponge filters for e better biologie.

Best regards

Alex

^^^
This is the reply I got from Alex Piwowarski back in 2013....50mg/litre with 20-30% water changes.
I'm not saying one way or another what is or isn't better, I've done both flow through and dump and fill water change routines and as I'm back setting up a fishroom once again after a few years off I have a lot better idea of what does work and what is a waste...

[Jack L]

I have put ridiculous amounts of plants in my planted tank, and the nitrates still got way high. I even let the algae go crazy in the sump. I guess I just had too many fish.
And/or food

[RDFISHGUY]

Ok I finally moved and got my discus into the 2 x 280 gallon set up. This set up has a 90 gallon sump with filter floss in the first section. This gets changed every 2-3 days. Under that is a K1 media box. Next is a sponge filter section then the pump. From the pump it flows through an Ultima 2 2000 gallon rated filter, then through a UV sterilizer, through a manifold back to the tanks. Pump is rated for 4000 gph. Water drips into the sump tank at a rate of 100 gallons per day. Its been running since July 15. My discus seem to be loving it. All of a sudden they are developing trailers on their dorsal fins and growing like crazy. I had to go to work before I got the chance to take pictures but I will get them when I am home next.

I am really digging the new set up except for the fact that I had to move the tanks into an "L" shape.

In one 280 gallon I have 16 discus, 1royal panaque and 2 bristlenose plecos. The other 280 gallon tank has a PNT, super red arowana, 9 large clown loaches, 2 large sunshine plecos and 1 large sailfin pleco.

[RDFISHGUY]

Ok I finally moved and got my discus into the 2 x 280 gallon set up. This set up has a 90 gallon sump with filter floss in the first section. This gets changed every 2-3 days. Under that is a K1 media box. Next is a sponge filter section then the pump. From the pump it flows through an Ultima 2 2000 gallon rated filter, then through a UV sterilizer, through a manifold back to the tanks. Pump is rated for 4000 gph. Water drips into the sump tank at a rate of 100 gallons per day. Its been running since July 15. My discus seem to be loving it. All of a sudden they are developing trailers on their dorsal fins and growing like crazy. I had to go to work before I got the chance to take pictures but I will get them when I am home next.

I am really digging the new set up except for the fact that I had to move the tanks into an "L" shape.

In one 280 gallon I have 16 discus, 1royal panaque and 2 bristlenose plecos. The other 280 gallon tank has a PNT, super red arowana, 9 large clown loaches, 2 large sunshine plecos and 1 large sailfin pleco.

The best part is that I don't age any water and don't treat any water for chlorine or chloramines even though I'm on city water. That's right none whatsoever.
I have a whole home water filtration system so I just turn on the tap and let the water run straight into the sump. There is an overflow that goes into a floor drain so no float switches or pumps required. I had the same set-up in the old house for 2 years. Only problem I experienced in that time was leaving the water running and overfilling the 230 gallon discus tank that wasn't part of the system.

[kalawai]

This has been a interesting and fun thread.... I laughed many times.

[benjieb]

Hi...transferred to my new setup over Easter. Reason im putting it up on here is because its truly autoclean. The system works on ultrasonic sensors on tank and filter coupled to a control cabinet for all systems. On auto, a daily timer sets the drain working whist dosing prime/etc to the fresh for circulation. The tank is designed so all unwanteds collect in the right hand corner, and are then sucked to external tank for garden. The "sluice" has a 5mm entry to avoid aquarium life. When the water gets to the level sensor on the tank, drain stops and main pump starts. The end chamber of the filter has 3 sensors for fillstart, fillstop, and over height alarm, which shuts of power to fill pump. Fill and main carry on until tank is full, and wier carries water to fill filter. Fill water comes from a 200l tank in the scullery behind showtank that is HMA heated water, on a constant carbon circulating filter with an inside pump, and syphon break, aerated. Temperature is controlled by 3 points in the system, tank in, tank out, filter pump box. .3 degree overtemp shuts off power to 2 electric heaters (500 and 300). Also the system uses a heat pump running through a heat exchanger and circulating pump from the thermal store of a wood fired heating system . I run the heating mainly with old pallets, so the fish run on recycled fuel. The filter has a " cassette " style trickle filter that can easily be removed to access the foam prefilter underneath. A large K1 micro chamber is next (still floating!) then an Alfagrog medium chamber, finishing off with 2 pumps in the pump box, one main one to tank, another to the fluidised sand filter in the scullery. There are various safety and secondary curcuits including a radio signal from the central heating to turn the hot water pump off and electric on when the central heating is running, as it robs the heat from the tank HEX. Has only been going 3 days, so is still work in progress with wiring untethered etc in fotos took on Friday.114837114838114839

[benjieb]

Update....have added a 3rd drain tube so that if the filter gets over a certain height (top sensor) the drain pump comes on and lowers the level of the filter. Is a shame, i thought more discus keepers would be interested in auto systems. Its so good to just flick a switch for auto clean, or set the timer.

[HappyFace]

Update....have added a 3rd drain tube so that if the filter gets over a certain height (top sensor) the drain pump comes on and lowers the level of the filter. Is a shame, i thought more discus keepers would be interested in auto systems. Its so good to just flick a switch for auto clean, or set the timer.

Your setup looks amazing! I think some people consider it a source of pride to do water changes manually. I think it's great to do what makes you happy.

I have a pre-filterled city well water drip-drain setup to turnover 200% water change daily. The discus are healthy and I'm happy. I think those are the most important things.

[benjieb]

Thanks mate....I have white sand down now and have pride in vacuuming it a few times a day like a carpet!

[benjieb]

thanks mate...few more here:115074115075115076115077

[lastflea]

Lovely tank Ben..

[benjieb]

Thanks mate. As you can see from second set of fotos, tank has been finished off and Devils Ivy planted in the wier. Level sensor alarm now automatically sucks water from both tank and filter until alarm is silenced. Now up to 190l per day.