Do stress bars always indicate stress?

[DiscusSteve]

Hi Guys,

I'm new here and new to discus. I have a 55 gal standard sized tank. It's barebottom with fluorescent lights. I have a 300W and 250W heater (the room temperature of the room the tank is in is in its 60s hence the extra heating). I have 7 discus that range from about 3"-4.5". I have 1 leopard, 1 maze leopard, 1 tiger turquoise (i think), 1 red melon, 1 blue diamond, 1 pigeon snakeskin, and 1 checkerboard pigeon. I do a 75% waterchange every other day. Currently the temperature is at 91 degrees because I am treating a bacterial disease but I usually keep it at 86. I have noticed a few things that I am not sure about and would like some more experience opinions. Firstly, my maze leopard has a skin ulcer (which is being treated for). It is sometimes dark, but usually relatively colourful with fins that are not clamped and showing vertical bars. I assume this discus is somewhat stressed from the bacterial disease. However, my leopard and tiger turq also show their vertical bars a lot but are very bright and do not have clamped fins. Do the stress bars mean they are stressed as well, or is it just something the strain shows? My checkerboard pigeon does not seem to move a whole lot but does eat a little bit. Unfortunately sometimes it darts quite a bit and sometimes smashes into the side of the tank when it gets pecked at. Does anyone know why this might have happened? I treated for gill flukes when I noticed a few of the fish were darting but now only the checkerboard darts. Finally, the fish just don't seem to be growing that much. I have had them for about 2 months and have noticed maybe 0.5" of growth in each one. Is this normal or is this too slow for them? Anyway, sorry for asking so many questions!

Water parameters:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: ~5ppm
pH: 7.2ish
Temperature: 91 (usually 86 when not medicating)
Livestock: 7x discus, 3x corydora
I don't have any hardness tests, but I do buffer my water with epsom salt, non-iodized salt, and a tiiiiny bit of baking soda + crushed coral in my filter since I live in an area where the water is basically like R/O water.

[strawberryblonde]

Hi Steve and welcome to the forums!

I'll tackle some of your questions here, though if the illnesses continue or worsen, please head to the Disease/Sickness section and post a thread there, ok? When you go there, there is a Disease Questionnaire link at the top of the page in bright red lettering. click on that link, copy and then paste the questionnaire into your Disease thread so that you can get the best treatment advice.

Alrighty then, basics on discus keeping. =)

1) REALLY IMPORTANT! If you suspect a bacterial infection, turn your temps down! Bacterial thrives at high temps, so you are making it worse when you raise the temps. Keep the temps at 82 for the entire course of treatment.

2) Stress bars and what they mean: They are actually just called "barring" and are a basic mood indicator. Some discus show them a lot more often than others. If one of your fish didn't used to show it's bars and then suddenly gets barred and stays that way, it's a good indicator that something is bothering it. That could be from bullying, pecking order stuff, the beginnings of finding a mate, bad water quality or illnesses.

3) Growing out Discus: Once they reach 4" it's normal for them to slow a bit on growth. 1/2" every 1-2 months is normal. At 3" though, I'd expect more growth than that in 2 months time, so something is off in the tank. (see below)

4) How much and how often to feed a 3"-4" discus: I prefer 6 smaller feedings per day for optimal growth. Offer a variety of high quality, high protein foods such as Discus Flakes, Discus Pellets, frozen beefheart, Freeze Dried Blackworms or Bloodworms, etc. By feeding 6 times a day you give even the most timid of the group a chance to grab something to eat while the others aren't looking. If it's only 3 feedings per day the timid ones may end up hanging back because the more aggressive ones are SO hungry by then that they get mean and push the timid ones away.

5) Buffering water: You don't really need to buffer your water so long as you are doing a 75% water change every other day. If it was me, I'd increase it to 50% every day, which is even better for the discus. Stop adding the epsom salts, table salt, baking soda and crushed coral...you are just asking for trouble and making things harder on yourself. If you want to add some minerals safely, purchase Discus Trace Elements and follow the instructions. I'd be more concerned that they aren't getting enough calcium in their diets...and Discus Trace will take care of that for you.

[Ryan]

Hi Steve,

First off, welcome to Simply.

The answer to your question about stress bars is not exactly a straightforward one. Yes, it's true that stress will bring out bars in discus. That's not the only cause, though. There are a few reasons they may show bars:

- Stress
- Aggression
- Spawning/fry-rearing
- The chameleon effect (trying to blend in with dark substrate/background/etc.)
- Age

A lot of young discus fry will show their bars all the time. Usually they grow out of this and end up only showing the bars sporadically. They may "turn them off" more as they get older. I've also noticed that submissive/passive fish will sometimes show bars in the presence of a fish that is more dominant or higher on the pecking order. Other cichlids show examples of this, too. I've got some severums who show their bars constantly in a community tank in the presence of other severums, but if I move them to a tank by themselves the bars fade almost immediately.

Right now, I'd say it's probably a combination of the fact that they're young and also because you're in the middle of treating them. I'd bump their temperature down to around 84F and give them plenty of clean, stable water.

A couple questions that may shed additional light on it:

- You mentioned fish darting and flashing. Is it possible there's an irritant in your tap water that is bothering them? You mentioned that you add baking soda and salt, and have crushed coral in the filters. Do you age the water before your water changes to try and stabilize it? Quickly shifting pH can stress them enough to make them go dark, dart around, and show their bars.

- You said the tank was bare-bottom. Is the bottom painted? Is there something covering the back glass? If so, is it a light or dark color? I've found that bare bottom tanks with no paint or cover, and tanks with darker backgrounds, will bring out the darker colors.

[DiscusSteve]

1) I was told to raise the temperature to speed up the life cycle so the medication worked more effectively - is this false? I'm currently treating the disease with metro
4) I usually feed 2-3x per day when i work and maybe 5-6x a day on the weekend. I am currently feeding freeze dried blackworms (1-2x per day) and Tetra color bit (2x+ per day)
5) I found when I didn't buffer my water, the pH (6.0 from the tap) crashed to 4.5 by the time I did a water change and that was really stressing the discus

@ Ryan

- I don't think there is an irritant in my tap water.. how would I know if there was? It's the same water I use with my african cichlids, tetras, rasboras etc and I never had a problem with it. Unfortunately, I don't age my water because I don't have the space to add water barrels and what not. What I do is mix about 5 gallons of water with the salt/baking soda etc and then fill the rest of the water in the tank directly into the tank with a homemade python hose thingy and mix all of the with the 5 gallon if mixed water. I tested the pH right before the water change and right after it and it was the same.

- The tank is totally bare bottom with nothing painted on the sides or bottom, however it is close to a dark greyish wall, so perhaps that could be what is changing the colors?

[DiscusSteve]

Odd.. I made another post but I can't see it show up >.<

So just in case..

1) I was told to raise the temp to speed up the bacterial life cycle and allow the medication (metro) to work faster - is this not true?
4) I feed 2-3x per day when I work at 5-6x on the weekends
5) I buffer the water because without it my pH crashes from 6.0-4.5 after a couple days

Ryan

- I don't think there is an irritant in my tank since all of my other tanks/species seem to be fine. How would I check if there was one? I do no age the water beforehand because I don't have the space to add water barrels and age the water so I mix about 5 gallons with salt/baking soda etc and then add most of the water straight from the tap to the tank with a homemade python hose and while all of that is adding I add the 5 gallon mixture (pH seems to remain stable from testing before and after)
- Tank is barebottom with no paint/coverings but the wall behind the tank (about 3" from the tank) is dark grey

[Ryan]

Steve, as a new member with less than 10 posts, any post using links is sent to auto-moderation for approval by a moderator. You used the @ symbol and the forum thought you were trying to insert an email link, so it yanked the post. I approved it. ;)

[strawberryblonde]

Yes, the instructions you received are wrong.

Raising the temps doesn't shorten the life cycle of bacteria, it simply causes the bacteria to divide and multiply faster and you can kill your fish that way...they become overwhelmed with bacteria.

What exactly are you treating? Metro isn't generally used for a bacterial infection.

People use straight RO water with no buffering capability very safely by adding Seachem Discus Trace Elements to the water at each WC. It's safer than what you are doing, since you aren't monitoring just what your additives are doing to the pH.

Go buy a pH test kit and trace elements and start using both on a daily basis.

Oh, you'll also want to paint the bottom of your tank white so that the discus can't see their reflections...that tends to stress them out.

For #5 you said that you do a 75% WC every other day, but in your last post you said it crashes after a couple of days. If you know you have a pH crash problem, up your water changes to every single day, 50%.

[Ryan]

Steve, my guess is that the uncovered bottom/back of the tank, especially if they're near a dark grey wall, could be contributing to the darker colors.

I still think you should watch your water carefully, though. My discus are always more sensitive to water quality. I have almost 1000 gallons worth of South American cichlids here and only the discus react strongly to small changes in my water. So much so that I've ordered a sediment/carbon block filter to use on my water changes because something in my local tap water has been irritating the heck out of my fish lately. They go dark and dart/twitch after a water change.

As Toni mentioned, metronidazole is usually used in the discus hobby for intestinal flagellates/parasites. In that case, most people do raise the temperature to 90F for a seven day treatment. What made you think you had a bacterial issue?

[DiscusSteve]

Well I noticed that my maze leopard discus had a thick white poop which seemed quite unusual. I e-mailed the person i bought the discus from who said it was a protozoan infection and to raise my temp to 90-92 degrees and treat with metro. I also read a discus health website about a skin ulcer because my maze leopard had something that resembled it (originally I thought it just lost some scales but it hadn't healed after a couple weeks). After adding metro I noticed the ulcer seem to be better although there is a hole in the discus's fin where it meets the body (maybe 2mm in diameter). I assume the ulcer thingy is a bacterial infection? Should I go and post this in the disease section?

I have a pH test kit and am aware that adding baking soda, epsom salts, and non-iodized salts increase kh/gh/ph but I will look into discus trace elements. I'm not sure if any stores around me carry it but I will try to find some.

[Ryan]

How many days have you been treating with heat + metro? White, stringy feces is usually indicative of hexamita, which you would treat with metro, so that is correct.

As for the ulcer, that's something that may be easier to identify with a picture. It may be best to start a new thread in the disease board for that issue. But if you've been treating with heat + metro for a while now, I'm inclined to say it's best to just finish it. Usually the suggested time is seven days. After that, hopefully all fish are eating and show normal, dark feces (including the affected one).

[DiscusSteve]

I have been treating with metro for 3 days now. So I think I will I will finish the treatment for that and see what happens. I've also noticed the front half of two of my discus is a fair bit fatter than the back half. Is that bloat? Both fish appear to be swimming well so maybe it's because they just ate?