Getting the WOW Affect with Allot Less Work- Design and Servicing the Purigen Reactor

[afriend]

Part 4 is divided into three sections. The first section discusses the basic philosophy of what is involved in designing a Purigen Reactor and how the design addresses these issues. The second section presents the reactor design and includes a parts list and pictures on how it is constructed. The third section presents the method of servicing the reactor with pictures.

SECTION 1 - Design Considerations

The design of a reactor for Purigen starts by understanding the make-up of the Purigen material.

Characteristics of Purigen - Size. The Purigen beads are very small, about 0.030 inch in diameter. They are made small because this creates the maximum surface area. But this creates the problem that they can become compacted unless water flows upward thru them. When water flows thru them properly, the beads are said to be fluidized. But there is another problem with tiny beads: they can easily clog a filter.

Characteristics of Purigen - Density. The Purigen beads are just SLIGHTLY more dense than water. (A small fraction of them are less dense than water and will float.) When water flows upward thru them, they will be thrust upwards, depending on the flow rate of the water. Thus a filter is necessary to keep the tiny beads from being carried into the aquarium. The beads are not harmful to the fish, but a tank full of tiny beads is not pleasing to the eye. The problem here is that the filter has to be sized properly so that it will operate sufficiently long with out getting plugged up with the tiny beads.

The Challenge of Designing a Purigen Reactor. The challenge is to build a reactor that will fluidize the tiny beads properly, keep the beads out of the aquarium, provide a sufficient flow rate to accomplish the intended purpose, accommodate sufficient Purigen, and operate continuously for at least a month without requiring servicing. Servicing will be necessary to either replace the Purigen, or clean the filter due to clogging by the tiny beads, whichever occurs first. The design presented addresses each of these issues. Note "design presented" refers to my design.

Amount of Purigen Necessary. My results indicate that 250 ml of new Purigen in the presented design is sufficient to provide filtration for 10 adult discus in a 100 g tank for at least one month. (I would guess that it might go for 6 weeks.) SeaChem claims that the effectiveness of Purigen is decreased about 10% each time it is regenerated.

Flow Rate Thru Purigen. My results indicate that a flow rate of 0.5 to 1.0 gallon per minute in the presented design is sufficient to provide filtration for 10 adult discus in a 100 g tank. After measuring actual flow rate, and observing how high the Purigen beads "boil", future flow rate can then be estimated; thus, this can be used to indicate when the filter is becomming clogged.

Getting the Reactor to Fluidize the Purigen Properly. In the design presented, water enters the vessel chamber at the bottom, and then flows up thru the baffle, and then the Purigen Platform. The baffle and Purigen Platform reduces water turbulence and presents even flow up thru the Purigen beads. Uneven water flow thru the Purigen would cause some beads to be thrust up higher than others. The higher the beads are lifted, the more likely they will be traped in the filter.

Filter Size. The design presented permits use of a large pleated filter. The greater the filter area, the longer it will operate without clogging. If a sponge was used to accomplish this, it would probably not provide sufficient filtration area.

Separation Between the Top Surface of the Purigen and The Filter. The greater the separation, the longer the filter will operate without clogging. The design presented permits a separation distance between 6 and 14 inches. (6 in to the bottom of the filter and 14 in to the top.) Close observation of the filter shows that the bottom of the filter becomes clogged first. Results with the design presented indicate that the filter will operate for at least a month without clogging, providing that the valve which regulates flow rate is turned on gradually. Thus, care must me taken when increasing the flow rate or the service life of the filter will be reduced. After removal and cleaning, the filter can be reused many times.

SECTION 2 - Purigen Reactor Design and Construction.

There are probably many ways to design a Purigen Reactor. My attempt here is by no means the only way, or not necessarily the best way to do it. But it does provide sufficient contact with the Purigen beads to provide the results claimed in Part 1, and it will work for at least one month without cleaning. Someone will come along and improve on the design, or perhaps come up with an entirely different approach. In the meantime the design presented will provide good service.

The following link contains a parts list, where the parts may be obtained, a list of assembly details, how water flows thru the reactor, and assembly and sub-assembly details.

http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/pscramer/library/The%20Fish%20Tank%20System/Purigen%20Reactor%20Design

Final Construction Detail. Now comes the interesting part of the building process: how to get the internal parts to fit properly when the cap is in place and tightned. This is accomplished by the "fit and try" method. First, remove all internal parts in the reactor except for those attached to the cap. Lubricate the reactor vessel O-ring, place the cap on the vessel and tighten the cap until it is snug (do not over tighten). Then scripe two marks, one on the cap and one on the vessel to indicate when the cap is on properly and seated.

Second, refer to picture #3 in the link above that shows the Upper Internal Assembly. The length of the CPVC pipe (part 8) should be adjusted so that the filter is slightly compressed when parts 6 and 7 are brought together.

Third, place the Lower Internal Assembly in the reactor vessel and press firmly in place as shown in picture #11.

Fourth, place the Upper Internal Assembly and Cap on/into the vessel and begin to rotate the cap. When some resistance is felt, note how much material needs to removed from parts 5 (PVC Slip coupling) in order to get the cap to seat properly on the reactor vessel. Remove the Cap, dissemble the Lower Internal Assembly and remove material from any or all of the slip couplings (part 5). Continue this process until the filter is slightly compressed and the two o-rings on the Upper Internal Assembly are seated properly and the two scribe marks in the first step above line up. This takes a little time and patience, but be sure to do the job right, otherwise water will not flow properly thru the reactor.

SECTION 3 Purigen Reactor Servicing

The method of servicing the reactor is shown in the link below. It takes about 20 minutes to accomplish.

http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/pscramer/library/The%20Fish%20Tank%20System/Purigen%20Reactor%20Service

Controlling Purigen During Servicing. Handling Purigen presents no problem at all. To transfer from one container to another, stirr and pour. To separate or rinse Purigen, let the beads settle (takes about a minute) and pour off excess water.

[JoeJoe]

Paul,

Do you glue any of the pieces together inside the reactor or is it just a snug fit?

Joe :)

[afriend]

Paul,

Do you glue any of the pieces together inside the reactor or is it just a snug fit?

Joe :)

Joe,

You need to be able to service the reactor as shown in Section 3 of Part 4. This allows for cleaning the parts. So don't glue those parts that allow for cleaning. All of the parts require a snug fit when in the reactor.

Paul

[Fundulopanchax]

Thank you again for sharing this series of articles. They are very clear and well-illustrated. I am going to upgrade aspects of my system using your findings and plans.

Ron

[afriend]

Thank you again for sharing this series of articles. They are very clear and well-illustrated. I am going to upgrade aspects of my system using your findings and plans.

Ron

Ron,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Good luck with your system.

Paul

[musicmarn1]

I'm just waiting on delivery of goods to start trying this, Thankyou so much for posting !

[afriend]

I'm just waiting on delivery of goods to start trying this, Thankyou so much for posting !

Would appreciate keeping me posted on your progress. If you encounter problems making or getting parts, I may be able to help. Just ask.

Paul

[JoeJoe]

Paul,

As soon as I get my large tank up which should be in two weeks time, I too am going to try your reactor.

How long should I wait after the tank is cycled?

Thanks,
Joe:)

[afriend]

Paul,

As soon as I get my large tank up which should be in two weeks time, I too am going to try your reactor.

How long should I wait after the tank is cycled?

Thanks,
Joe:)

Joe,

What method are you using to cycle your tank?

Paul

[JoeJoe]

Paul,

In the past i have used Prime and Stability by Seachem with fish, not discus. Am willing to try another way as soon as I set up a new tank. I am still trying to figure out the size, 90, 100 or 120. And if new or used. Since I removed the gravel in my current grow out tank, the fish are healthier, super mellow, and breathing easier. Even my girls have told me. I need to decide on a tank soon, I have great prices on any of the three new tank sizes until mid September.

What method do you recommend to cycle a tank?

Joe:)

[afriend]

Paul,

In the past i have used Prime and Stability by Seachem with fish, not discus. Am willing to try another way as soon as I set up a new tank. I am still trying to figure out the size, 90, 100 or 120. And if new or used. Since I removed the gravel in my current grow out tank, the fish are healthier, super mellow, and breathing easier. Even my girls have told me. I need to decide on a tank soon, I have great prices on any of the three new tank sizes until mid September.

What method do you recommend to cycle a tank?

Joe:)

I use the fishless method using Stability. I know what SeaChem says about using Prime with fish, but I would not add fish (not discus anyway) until the cycle process is complete. I do believe that Stability helps to speed the cycle process somewhat, because I was able to complete the cycle process in about 2 weeks using Stability. Here's what I do. After getting the tank set up, add Stability and then add the ammonia drop by drop until I get 1ppm (record the number of drops). (It does no good to exceed that amount.) Add a very small amount of flake food. Then record ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate daily. As soon as nitrites begin to occur the ammonia should begin to drop, and add additional Stability If the ammonia drops below 0.5ppm, add enough drops of ammonia to keep it at 0.5ppm, the nitrites will then begin to increase and then decrease, and the tank will then begin to drop the ammonia from 0.5 to 0 overnight. When the tank will process 0.5ppm ammonia overnight, increase it to 1.0ppm until it will process that overnight. When the tank will process 2.0ppm ammonia overnight, do a large water change and you will have a cycled tank and you can add fish.

Paul

[Kal-El]

Just now notice this article... great read and thank you for the instructions... I will try this out in one of my tanks...

[dirtyplants]

Paul, I just found other products on the market that claim the same as your purigen, My question is, have you considered using your purigen with a powerhead powered sand filter instead of sand? Just using your perigen pellets? I have a sand filter and it might be an interesting experiment for me in the future.

[Frankr409]

Paul, I just found other products on the market that claim the same as your purigen, My question is, have you considered using your purigen with a powerhead powered sand filter instead of sand? Just using your perigen pellets? I have a sand filter and it might be an interesting experiment for me in the future. It's funny you mention sand filters, I had this in mind today. I support a biosand project for the Rotary that delivers drinking water to people in the Dominican Republic. It obviously could be useful in an aquarium.

Do you have pictures or diagrams
of your sand filter?

[dirtyplants]

I have two old ones I used many years ago by life guard I think HOB clear sealed unit that uses a power head. They work just fine but sooner or later the sand will compact and it is difficult getting the sand out. It is built like a rock permanently sealed leaving only the in and the out of the unit for access. Once the sand is out can be replaced by any media.
There is a very sealable one inch input and out put one on bottom and one on top. The one on top is where you would poor the media into it. It screws in tight and has o rings, for pressure to ensure no leaking. The main chamber has a compartment located on the top inside of it which has a special baffled top section and the same goes for the bottom section. This prevents the sand from being shot out of it and prevents the sand from clogging the bottom section. I have to find them but they might be found on the net also. I will take a look to see what is on the net. Maybe some diagrams. Diagrams better then my poor description.

[musicmarn1]

Wow, was also looking at sand filters for about $100 both for sand and one for purigen, I made my own reactor!! Very poor attempt, the flow rate is to high but I just used a moving kaldness home made bed filter and covered it in stockings :) can't come out and I just replace stockings when I recharge! Simple! But yes want to try sand, do love the k1 filters I made too

[OC Discus]

Paul,

Have you written Part 5? I cannot find a link to it.

[afriend]

Paul,

Have you written Part 5? I cannot find a link to it.

When I first considered putting this together, I planned a Part 5, but later decided not to.

Paul

[OC Discus]

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OC Discus]

Paul

You said there are other ways to do a Puritan reactor. After pondering your comments on how water does not flow freely through the pouches I decided to try something. I got my magnum 350 out of storage, put a clean micron filter in it, then placed four pouches of Purigen around the filter. Once it was up and running I noticed the water moving through the pouches causing the beads to roll or float. The larger amount 400 ml seems appropriate since the flow rate is still not as good as in a reactor. So far so good. Thanks. I ll report again in a few days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[afriend]

Paul

You said there are other ways to do a Puritan reactor. After pondering your comments on how water does not flow freely through the pouches I decided to try something. I got my magnum 350 out of storage, put a clean micron filter in it, then placed four pouches of Purigen around the filter. Once it was up and running I noticed the water moving through the pouches causing the beads to roll or float. The larger amount 400 ml seems appropriate since the flow rate is still not as good as in a reactor. So far so good. Thanks. I ll report again in a few days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OC Discus,

Sounds really interesting. Can you take a video and share it with us? Would really like to see it.

Paul

[OC Discus]

Here is a short video of the Mag. 350 canister with 4 purigen pouches. You have to look closely or enlarge, but you can see the beads being rolled around by the water. Less contact than a reactor, but with 4 pouches maybe I will see some benefit.


http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t651/OCDiscus/th_AF60A3BA-21B8-45F0-90C7-74D67268A038_zpsno8bwjf8.jpg (http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t651/OCDiscus/AF60A3BA-21B8-45F0-90C7-74D67268A038_zpsno8bwjf8.mp4)

[afriend]

Here is a short video of the Mag. 350 canister with 4 purigen pouches. You have to look closely or enlarge, but you can see the beads being rolled around by the water. Less contact than a reactor, but with 4 pouches maybe I will see some benefit.


http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t651/OCDiscus/th_AF60A3BA-21B8-45F0-90C7-74D67268A038_zpsno8bwjf8.jpg (http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t651/OCDiscus/AF60A3BA-21B8-45F0-90C7-74D67268A038_zpsno8bwjf8.mp4)


OC Discus,

Thank you very much for the video. The Purigen beads are clearly moving, and it appears that there is sufficient contact between the water and the beads, especially since you have four bags in the canister (can't see the other three bags very well, so I'm assuming the bead motion in the others are the same). The next question to be answered is: will this amount of water flow continue for a month? The bag mesh is pretty small, and hopefully it won't get blocked.

Can't tell if your Magnum 350 is set up to operate with an aquarium with fish in it, so I'm going to assume that it is. Just be aware that the first thing that is going to happen is that the Purigen is going to cause the feces to dissolve and disintegrate. Now all of this material is going to go somewhere. In my setup, here's what happens: the organic compounds are absorbed by the Purigen, the suspended solids are captured by the pleated canister filter, and the dissolved solids are flushed out by the water exchange. In my filtration system the mechanical filtration and the biofilter are separated, thus the suspended solids do not clog the biofilter. If you employ a sponge filter to accomplish both, this could possibly cause a problem. Don't know what your water exchange schedule is, but I would suggest that it be not less than 30% daily.

I would suggest that you monitor the water parameters (ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate) carefully to assure that your biofilter continues to do it's job. If the Purigen reactor is doing it's job and there is sufficient water circulation, the nitrate level should go to zero.

Would be very helpful if you could post some pictures of your tank set up with the Magnum 350.

Paul

[OC Discus]

Paul,

Thanks for your reply. I will try to post a few more pictures here.

I've been pondering my filtration system further. I sterilized my tank after a case of persistent illness, and was running bare bottom, two whisper hob filters that got clean floss a couple of times a week. They also contain bio sponges that get rinsed only occasionally in tank water.

After sterilizing the tank, I added two large sponge filters to help with bio filtration. Though I vacuumed them daily and squeezed them in tank water a couple of times a week, I was getting a slime build up on the bottom between daily 75% water changes. I decided to add a thin layer of pool filter sand to add some extra bio filtration on the bottom, and to help the tank look better between water changes.

I've ordered a magnum inline pump to make vacuuming the bottom/removing water quicker and easier (currently, vacuum daily with eheim cordless vac, and change 75% water daily with submersible pump. I also have been considering ordering another magnum 350 (under $100) to fill completely with bio media and serve as a bio canister. My tank is 55g not planted, and the magnum circulates 350 gph. I hope to go a month between servicing the purigen canister. The casing is clear, so I can easily see if the media is clogged or dark. I will have a clean micron filter and four clean pouches of purigen on hand to service the canister, whether it is 2 weeks or 4 weeks. I plan to remove it, bleach the micron filter and purigen, wash the canister and parts in hot water, insert clean micron filter and purigen, and put it back online. I can alter this plan if just the micron filter needs cleaning.

You said you've used the magnum 350. It has a media container, which holds a small amount of media, but the area around the container would hold a fairly large amount of media. The flow rate of the magnum being what it is, I think it would work for my tank. It would have no floss or cartridges in it. Proponents of the internal bio filters (I forget the name, K1?) say they are self cleaning. The media allows flow to prevent large trapped solids, and the beneficial bacteria consume anything that does remain.

So, for now, my immediate plan is:
2 Whisper HOB filters that get clean floss twice per week and bio sponges that won't need cleaning often
1 Magnum 350 Purigen Canister with a micron filter
1 Magnum 350 Bio Canister filled with bio media, but no floss or cartridge
Thin sandbed to house beneficial bacteria
75% water changes every 2nd or third day (this is the thing that requires the most work, lugging tubs, hoses, towels, cleaning the bathtub- I hope to keep the system clean between bi-weekly water changes.

Per your comment about the waste dissolving, do you think the floss in 2 hob filters changed 2x weekly, and the micron filter in the canister changed every 2-4 weeks, plus the bb in the sand bed will be enough to keep the water clean between 75-80% bi-weekly water changes? I'm still experimenting. I don't have a fish room and am working in my living room. Just today my wife took a bath after my 75% wc and ran out of hot water.

Tanks.

[OC Discus]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/28/ehydamed.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/28/uvyqe4a3.jpg




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OC Discus]

Second day running 4 pouches of purigen around the mag 350 micron filter and 1/4 " pool filter sand. 1 Day after 75% wc. Water and glass are crystal clear. Fish look like they are floating on air.

Removing visible waste with eheim electric vacuum every morning. Water parameters: Ammonia- 0, Nitrite- 0, Nitrate- 0. If I can maintain these conditions between bi-weekly 80% water and filter floss changes and monthly or bi monthly canister maintenance I will be happy. Auto water changes are not an option.

[OC Discus]

Paul,

Sorry if I'm posting too much in your thread. You asked for feedback, but this may be more than you wanted. It is kind of a follow up on your project and original post.

[afriend]

Paul,

Thanks for your reply. I will try to post a few more pictures here.

I've been pondering my filtration system further. I sterilized my tank after a case of persistent illness, and was running bare bottom, two whisper hob filters that got clean floss a couple of times a week. They also contain bio sponges that get rinsed only occasionally in tank water.

After sterilizing the tank, I added two large sponge filters to help with bio filtration. Though I vacuumed them daily and squeezed them in tank water a couple of times a week, I was getting a slime build up on the bottom between daily 75% water changes. I decided to add a thin layer of pool filter sand to add some extra bio filtration on the bottom, and to help the tank look better between water changes.

I've ordered a magnum inline pump to make vacuuming the bottom/removing water quicker and easier (currently, vacuum daily with eheim cordless vac, and change 75% water daily with submersible pump. I also have been considering ordering another magnum 350 (under $100) to fill completely with bio media and serve as a bio canister. My tank is 55g not planted, and the magnum circulates 350 gph. I hope to go a month between servicing the purigen canister. The casing is clear, so I can easily see if the media is clogged or dark. I will have a clean micron filter and four clean pouches of purigen on hand to service the canister, whether it is 2 weeks or 4 weeks. I plan to remove it, bleach the micron filter and purigen, wash the canister and parts in hot water, insert clean micron filter and purigen, and put it back online. I can alter this plan if just the micron filter needs cleaning.

You said you've used the magnum 350. It has a media container, which holds a small amount of media, but the area around the container would hold a fairly large amount of media. The flow rate of the magnum being what it is, I think it would work for my tank. It would have no floss or cartridges in it. Proponents of the internal bio filters (I forget the name, K1?) say they are self cleaning. The media allows flow to prevent large trapped solids, and the beneficial bacteria consume anything that does remain.

So, for now, my immediate plan is:
2 Whisper HOB filters that get clean floss twice per week and bio sponges that won't need cleaning often
1 Magnum 350 Purigen Canister with a micron filter
1 Magnum 350 Bio Canister filled with bio media, but no floss or cartridge
Thin sandbed to house beneficial bacteria
75% water changes every 2nd or third day (this is the thing that requires the most work, lugging tubs, hoses, towels, cleaning the bathtub- I hope to keep the system clean between bi-weekly water changes.

Per your comment about the waste dissolving, do you think the floss in 2 hob filters changed 2x weekly, and the micron filter in the canister changed every 2-4 weeks, plus the bb in the sand bed will be enough to keep the water clean between 75-80% bi-weekly water changes? I'm still experimenting. I don't have a fish room and am working in my living room. Just today my wife took a bath after my 75% wc and ran out of hot water.

Tanks.

OC Discus,

I didn't reply to this post yesterday because I needed time to think about what to say. The job of converting your existing tank with fish in it to a system like mine is much more complex than starting form scratch with a new tank and without fish. So what I have decided to so is to give you some general guidelines that I hope will help you. Frankly, I really don't know what the best approach is to convert your tank using the equipment that you now have. Would appreciate it very much if you would keep me posted on your progress. By the way, I was very impressed with your idea of placing bags of Purigen in a Magnum 350 to produce a reactor. I never considered doing it this way. I would suggest placing some mechanical filtration media on the front end in order to keep it running longer before it becomes plugged.

You will be making changes to your tank while you have fish in it, and this can be risky unless you are very careful and understand what you are doing. One of these risks is that you need to be certain that you maintain an established biofilter. I would start by recording all of the changes in a journal. Then I would recommend that you measure and record water parameters daily: ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. The ammonia and nitrite will always be maintained at zero if you have a properly established biofilter. Would suggest that you have some Prime on hand in case of emergencies.

There are three objectives you are trying to accomplish: getting the water clarity crystal clear, reducing algae/slime to near zero, and getting the feces to dissolve/disintegrate. Sounds as if you have satisfied the first objective. Like you, I found this very easy by simply adding a 100ml bag of Purigen in the path of moving water.

Algae/slime will be eliminated when phosphates and nitrates are reduced to zero. In my system, the phosphates and nitrates in my SOURCE water are already zero, so I don't have any issues to deal with initially. Normally in an aquarium without a Purigen reactor, nitrates are produced by the nitrification of uneaten fish food and feces. (The Purigen absorbs the organic compounds in the uneaten fish food and feces and thus they are not available to the nitrification process and nitrates are greatly reduced). A secondary source of nitrates occur when the digestive process of the fish produces ammonia and then the nitrification process in the biofilter produces nitrates. This second source of nitrates is much less than the first, and they are flushed from the tank with water exchanges.

You already have a Purigen reactor online, and from the looks of the motion of the Purigen beads in the video, your reactor is working properly. Now what I would suggest is to record the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and phosphate of your source water and tank water. The other thing that I would suggest is to clean all existing algae and slime from your tank (I'm not certain that your Purigen reactor will remove existing algae/slime. What it will do for certain is to stop the growth of new algae/slime providing that the nitrate and phosphate is near zero). When you have done this, please let me know the measured values, and we can proceed from there.

The third objective is to get the feces to dissolve/disintegrate. There are three requirements you need to accomplish to get this to happen. The first is to get a functional Purigen reactor. (Looks to me you have already accomplished this). The second is to get a very large amount of circulation thru your filtration system (I have a 100g tank and the filter pump rate is 1000g/hr thus the water "turns over" 10 times an hour). Your system may work with less, but I don't have enough experience to say for certain or how much. The third thing is to get a large bottom to top circulation going in the tank. This happens in my tank with six bubble lift tubes. I know for certain that the bubble lift tubes are necessary to get the feces to dissolve/disintegrate properly. When you have enough circulation you should be able to see the fresh feces move slightly in the water current (fresh feces in this area should disappear in about an hour). In some areas of the tank that get less current, the feces will take longer to disappear (4 hours or more). I would estimate that more than 99% of the feces material disappears. As Purigen darkens, the feces will require longer for this to occur. I would suggest that you remove the sand until you get the system working properly, and then add it back later to see if there is a change. The removal of sand may allow better water motion at the tank bottom where the feces is.

Getting back to the risk of making changes in an existing tank with fish, one of the risks involves what happens to the feces after it breaks up. The feces is made up of organic compounds, dissolved solids (TDS), and suspended solids. The organic compounds will be absorbed by the Purigen and do not pose any risk. The dissolved solids can be measured with a TDS meter. I would suggest getting one and measuring the TDS of your source water, then compare it with the tank water TDS to get an idea of how much TDS is added to the tank water by the feces. Then regulate the water exchange to obtain what you think is a reasonable level. My exchange schedule (30% daily) results in a tank water TDS of 82ppm. My source water has a TDS of 77ppm. Now getting to the suspended solids. I suspect that the suspended solids could potentially create a risk in your system (I don't know this to be a fact, I'm only guessing.) What I do know for certain is that there's a large amount of suspended solids, because I noticed there was a huge increase in my pleated filter when I first put my Purigen reactor online. I have two pleated filters (30 microns) with a total of 60 square feet of pleated filter (this is allot of area). I know for certain that my pleated filter will eventually get clogged with the suspended solids. This is indicated by the pressure gauge on the canister filter. What I'm trying to say is, provide allot of mechanical filtration for the water before it enters your biofilter and assure that it does not become blocked. A tank without an aquate biofilter will cause big problems. I would also carefully monitor the ammonia and nitrite.

When you get this system operating properly, you will be amazed at how clean your tank will stay, and how little work it takes to keep it that way. I guarantee it. Also, you will be able to add all sorts of decorative items (if you choose) and have them stay clean for several months.

Paul

[afriend]

Second day running 4 pouches of purigen around the mag 350 micron filter and 1/4 " pool filter sand. 1 Day after 75% wc. Water and glass are crystal clear. Fish look like they are floating on air.

Removing visible waste with eheim electric vacuum every morning. Water parameters: Ammonia- 0, Nitrite- 0, Nitrate- 0. If I can maintain these conditions between bi-weekly 80% water and filter floss changes and monthly or bi monthly canister maintenance I will be happy. Auto water changes are not an option.

OC Discus,

I did't see your post before making mine today. GREAT, you're making progress. Question: what test kit did you use to measure nitrate? Can you "guess" how close to zero you think it is?

The only real advantage that my automated exchange system provides to tank conditions is surface cleaning. Other than that manual exchanges work fine.

[afriend]

Paul,

Sorry if I'm posting too much in your thread. You asked for feedback, but this may be more than you wanted. It is kind of a follow up on your project and original post.

OC Discus,

No apology necessary. In fact I welcome your feedback. Frankly, I'm looking for someone to validate my results. Hoping that you will stick with it and that you will be successful in getting the same results as mine.

I know for a fact that this is a REALLY REALLY good system and that it will do exactly as I have previously stated. I'm going to feel somewhat vindicated when someone else accomplishes this. Most people are polite, but there has been a couple that I know don't believe what I claim are actually my results, and have let me know so. So PLEASE stick with it.

Paul

[OC Discus]

Paul,

Thanks for the in depth response. I will ponder your comments and make updates every few days.

For testing, I am using API 6-1 Test Strips and API Ammonia Test Strips. I was seeing some nitrite shortly after adding the purigen. I think the feces was dissolving and settling on the bottom like dust between daily water changes. The two large sponge filters were also trapping the dissolved feces. Twice I tested the water just after squeezing the sponges and saw signs of nitrite. Since removing the sponges and making the changes listed above, the parameters have been a flat 0. I also use an ammonia alert in my tank to signal me if anything is happening that I haven't noticed.

Thanks again for your help.

[afriend]

Paul,

Thanks for the in depth response. I will ponder your comments and make updates every few days.

For testing, I am using API 6-1 Test Strips and API Ammonia Test Strips. I was seeing some nitrite shortly after adding the purigen. I think the feces was dissolving and settling on the bottom like dust between daily water changes. The two large sponge filters were also trapping the dissolved feces. Twice I tested the water just after squeezing the sponges and saw signs of nitrite. Since removing the sponges and making the changes listed above, the parameters have been a flat 0. I also use an ammonia alert in my tank to signal me if anything is happening that I haven't noticed.

Thanks again for your help.

OC Discus,

Sounds as if you are making significant progress. My understanding of where you are right now is that the water is crystal clear, that the nitrates are zero, algae and slime are no longer forming on the glass, and that the feces, while not entirely dissolving, is breaking up. Please let me know if any of this is not accurate.

Would suggest that you keep close monitoring of the Purigen beads to assure that they are still moving around in the bags. It's quite possible that the fine mesh of the bags will begin to become clogged because there is no mechanical filter on the intake. I expect that you will get improved results with the feces if water circulation is increased and the sand is removed from the tank.

Good luck with your experiment. I feel pretty sure that your headed in the right direction.

Paul

[OC Discus]

OC Discus,

Sounds as if you are making significant progress. My understanding of where you are right now is that the water is crystal clear, that the nitrates are zero, algae and slime are no longer forming on the glass, and that the feces, while not entirely dissolving, is breaking up. Please let me know if any of this is not accurate.

Would suggest that you keep close monitoring of the Purigen beads to assure that they are still moving around in the bags. It's quite possible that the fine mesh of the bags will begin to become clogged because there is no mechanical filter on the intake. I expect that you will get improved results with the feces if water circulation is increased and the sand is removed from the tank.

Good luck with your experiment. I feel pretty sure that your headed in the right direction.

Paul

Paul,

Thanks again for your suggestions. You are correct that the water is crystal clear, nitrates are 0 and the glass is staying clean. The feces are also dissolving, floating up, breaking apart, and going into the filters. The purigen beads are actually circulating better today than they were in the video.

A couple of things different about my setup are: 1) water is not being flushed over the top daily, and 2) I have a smaller bio system. I have three mechanical filters running in the 55g- 2 designed for the system and the Mag 350. All three are doing mechanical filtration. The two Whispers will get clean floss twice per week to keep flow maximized. The mag will get a clean micron filter when it is noticeably darkened or the flow has slowed noticeably. The purigen will also be replaced/recharged when it darkens or becomes clogged. So far the pouches are too small to become clogged, and there is plenty of space around the pouches for larger waste to be pulled into the micron filter.

The only thing I'm not agreeing on is that I am counting on the thin sand bed to host additional beneficial bacteria and help with the nitrification process, since I don't have a canister dedicated for this purpose. The sand, in my opinion, looks better than the dissolving feces that was powdering up the bottom. I observed that the beneficial bacteria needed more space to colonize, and was settling on the bottom between water changes. I think I have enough flow, combined with regular large water changes, to prevent the buildup of solids.

I may be wrong about the sand bed, and feel free to correct me. I previously removed all substrate and sterilized the tank. I know that parasites are no longer an issue. I think a thin layer of sand, in my case, will help with the nitrification process and improve the general appearance. Time will tell.

Today is day 3 since the last 75% water change and all levels are still 0- Including nitrate. I have also, with this experiment, cut back from overfeeding multiple times a day to a good feeding three times a day. This has helped keep waste out of the filters and off the bottom.

[OC Discus]

I forgot to mention my top three priorities, in order:

1) The Health of the Fish
2) The Appearance of the Tank
3) Reducing My Time Working on It.

If the fish are healthy with the addition of sand, it helps achieve my second and third goals of 2) Appearance, and 3) Less Time...
If the sand becomes unhealthy, I'll reconsider it.

[afriend]

I forgot to mention my top three priorities, in order:

1) The Health of the Fish
2) The Appearance of the Tank
3) Reducing My Time Working on It.

If the fish are healthy with the addition of sand, it helps achieve my second and third goals of 2) Appearance, and 3) Less Time...
If the sand becomes unhealthy, I'll reconsider it.

OC Discus,

Thanks for listing your priorities as this helps. My response here is based on my understanding of your system as it is configured and working now.

Health of the fish: The addition of the Purigen reactor has already accomplished this because it will greatly reduce the dissolved organic compounds (DOCs) in your water. (I believe that the Purigen reactor accomplishes this better than any amount of water exchange. That's because the Purigen works 24/7 while water exchange works intermittently and one cannot replace all of the water anyhow.) Having said that, water exchange is still important, but for reasons other than removing DOCs. Shortly after I added a Purigen reactor to my tank, I noticed that the fish were more colorful, held their fins more erect, and displayed less aggression. I believe that these are signs that the fish are healthier. So from the standpoint of fish health, I think your there.

Appearance of the tank: You have achieved the objective of eliminating algae and slime buildup. This greatly improves tank appearance, especially with the improvement in water clarity. The only objective that you have not fully achieved is to get the feces to dissolve completely. You stated that it breaks up and becomes trapped in your filter system, but there's still some left. At this point, I am 90% certain that improved water circulation in your tank will accomplish this. The circulation should be great enough so that there is some slight motion of the feces. If you can get the feces to move slightly when there is sand in the tank, then by all means leave the sand there. I would suggest adding four bubble lift tubes, one in each corner, to get the improvement in circulation. Make sure the lift tubes go as low as possible without picking up sand. Perhaps this will create enough circulation even though the sand is present.

Time working on it: you are left with a tradeoff. Time spent on trying to get the feces to dissolve vs time spent cleaning it up with a vacuum.

What I would like to tell you is how well this system works in my tank. In the morning when I first observe my fish, there is such a small amount of feces, that I have to look very carefully to find any at all. That's because its been all night since they last ate. After feeding, there is some fresh feces, but it will disappear within an hour or two. Thus the tank is cleaner than I could ever accomplish using the vacuum method.

You may be satisfied with your system the way it is now. I think we can agree that it is better than when you first started. This is of course for you to decide.

Hope this is helpful for you.

Paul

[OC Discus]

Paul,

Just an update. Today is the second or third day without any vacuuming, as I've had a very bad head and chest cold. As of this moment, all feces has totally dissolved and been removed from the tank except one or two small pieces. This morning there were about 3 fairly large black solid pieces, about half the size of an English Pea. Even those have broken down, dissolved, and been sucked up by the filters. I currently don't have any decorations in the tank, so nothing is obstructing the water flow. Two of my filters pull in water from about 1/2 way up the tank- one on each end. The other filter pulls water from the bottom and is located in the middle. I would like to add a decoration, like an artificial log or tree stump. However, the poop tends to gather around these things and they block the flow of the water. We'll see.

So far I am very happy with the purigen reactor. Tomorrow I'll do a 75% water change, put clean floss in my 2 hang on the back filters, and vacuum the sand. I might wipe the glass one last time for good measure, though it doesn't look like it needs it. Nitrates, ammonia, and nitrite remain at 0. The water and glass remain crystal clear. Also, as you said, the fish look very healthy in their color, fins, eyes, etc. Two of my fish were turning orange after feeding beefheart exclusively for about three weeks. Slowly their color is going back to normal.

I hope the good results continue. We shall see. Thank you again.

BTW- Where did your artificial reef come from? The guys on the tv show "Fish Tank Kings" specialize in those. Their business is called, living color.

Also, you ever get a build up of debris under the reef? How do you maintain that?

[afriend]

Paul,

Just an update. Today is the second or third day without any vacuuming, as I've had a very bad head and chest cold. As of this moment, all feces has totally dissolved and been removed from the tank except one or two small pieces. This morning there were about 3 fairly large black solid pieces, about half the size of an English Pea. Even those have broken down, dissolved, and been sucked up by the filters. I currently don't have any decorations in the tank, so nothing is obstructing the water flow. Two of my filters pull in water from about 1/2 way up the tank- one on each end. The other filter pulls water from the bottom and is located in the middle. I would like to add a decoration, like an artificial log or tree stump. However, the poop tends to gather around these things and they block the flow of the water. We'll see.

So far I am very happy with the purigen reactor. Tomorrow I'll do a 75% water change, put clean floss in my 2 hang on the back filters, and vacuum the sand. I might wipe the glass one last time for good measure, though it doesn't look like it needs it. Nitrates, ammonia, and nitrite remain at 0. The water and glass remain crystal clear. Also, as you said, the fish look very healthy in their color, fins, eyes, etc. Two of my fish were turning orange after feeding beefheart exclusively for about three weeks. Slowly their color is going back to normal.

I hope the good results continue. We shall see. Thank you again.

BTW- Where did your artificial reef come from? The guys on the tv show "Fish Tank Kings" specialize in those. Their business is called, living color.

Also, you ever get a build up of debris under the reef? How do you maintain that?

OC Discus,

Sorry to hear about your cold, hope it gets better real soon.

So as I understand where your tank is right now is that you have pretty much achieved the performance objectives (water clarity, lack of algae/slime and and dissolving/disintegration of feces. The only performance objective that you have not achieved is the ability to clean the surface debris, and this is due to the differences in our methods of water exchange. What you have yet to achieve is the objective of going an entire month without any tank maintenance. This is due to the differences in our approach to mechanical filtration. However, I'm quite sure that you will discover that you can maintain pristine clean conditions in your tank with your existing setup and enjoy a reasonable reduction in the effort to keep it that way.

If you have not already discovered it, there will be a large increase in the amount of debris trapped in your mechanical filters. This is due to the fact that the feces contains a lot of suspended solids. Thats why my system has a very large pleated filter surface area. It's large enough to contain all of the suspended solids for an entire month.

Would like to address your Purigen reactor. I think your approach holds great promise for becoming an effective reactor, and I admire you for coming up with the idea. I considered using a Magnum 350, but dismissed it because I didn't think of the possibility of placing the Purigen bags vertical in the canister. The use of your concept is not fully proven yet because you need to use it for a few months first. One nice thing about your reactor concept is that the motion of the Purigen beads can be observed while in use. I see two possible problems (both of which could probably be overcome with some minor modifications). The first is that the bags that contains the Purigen beads has a very fine mesh. I suspect that this fine mesh may become plugged before the month is over (the material that could possibly plugg it up is too small to be seen). The best way to find out is to try it. I hope my hunch turns out incorrect. As you say, time will tell. The second possible problem is the cost of the Purigen bags. Purigen in loose form is considerably cheaper.

I found that some of the feces tended to gather around the decorations and required longer to dissolve. I solved this problem by moving the bubble lift tubes around and changing the location of the decorations somewhat until I got good results.

I obtained the artificial reef from fishtanksdirect.com. Look under "instant reef artificial". It's model R060. I made changes to it by cutting it with a saw so that it would fit in my tank. It comes apart in four pieces that makes it easy to get in and out of the tank. I think that Living Color either makes these reefs or makes the corals that are contained on it. If you don't like the specific corals that come with the reef, you can cut them off and replace it with others using aquarium silicone to glue it on.

As to debris collecting under the artificial reef, there is some, but it is a very small amount. I remove it when I do my monthly cleaning. One thing that I have stated before, but not emphasized too much, concerns the effectiveness of Purigen to remove organic compounds from everything in the tank. I rather suspect that the debris that does collect under the decorations contain very few organic compounds, and thus do not cause problems in the tank. For example, when I feed my fish with pure beef heart (beef heart with nothing added), it turns white within a minute or so if the fish don't eat it. It does this because the Purigen "sucks" the blood out in a hurry. Then the white stuff dissolves to. So the debris under the decorations probably contain few DOCs. Another example of the effectiveness of Purigen is illustrated by the "sniff" test. When I remove the decorations from the tank, I perform the sniff test by placing the item close to my nose while it is still wet. It passes the sniff test if it still smells fresh. It's the DOCs that will make it smell bad. I have had items in the tank for up to six months without cleaning them and they still pass.

Hope you get better real soon.

Paul

[OC Discus]

Paul,

Thanks for the good wishes about the cold. I trust it'll be cleared up in a couple of days.

I think I miscommunicated about the surface debris. I am not having any debris on the surface. All 3 filters are stirring the surface and it is crystal clear. I was making reference to the air lift tubes pushing everything to the top where it is flushed out by your automated system. My filters pull from the middle and bottom of the tank instead of the top. And when I change water, I will be removing it from the bottom. I was wondering about the benefit of the lift tubes- I suppose they serve to lift the debris from the bottom, help it break down and be removed by the filters or flushed out by the water change. They would probably be beneficial either way. I have seen airstones, but where do you obtain the tubes? I have a couple of airstones that I've run in the past, and a couple of sponge filters that have tubes on them. I suppose I could get the same effect from the sponge units by just removing the sponge. They have a weighted base rather than suction cups.

As for the mesh bags- I'm sure they won't last a month between cleaning, but should last 2-3 weeks. And I know I'll have to do water changes and put clean floss in the HOB's. I've already bought the four replacement pouches to swap out the purigen while cleaning/recharging. Long term I will have to evaluate whether to replace the pouches or switch to the loose form with a bag. I was confident the pouches would fit around the mag filter, but was not sure how the loose product would work. I saw a media reactor on sale for about $79.00 on one website. I think it is the one Josie posted earlier. That is always another option.

BTW- The flow through the pouches is increasing every day. I'll try to get a pic tomorrow. The whole contents of the pouch are visibly moving rather than just small areas. Is that what you mean by "fluidized"? Suspended in fluid?

[afriend]

Paul,

Thanks for the good wishes about the cold. I trust it'll be cleared up in a couple of days.

I think I miscommunicated about the surface debris. I am not having any debris on the surface. All 3 filters are stirring the surface and it is crystal clear. I was making reference to the air lift tubes pushing everything to the top where it is flushed out by your automated system. My filters pull from the middle and bottom of the tank instead of the top. And when I change water, I will be removing it from the bottom. I was wondering about the benefit of the lift tubes- I suppose they serve to lift the debris from the bottom, help it break down and be removed by the filters or flushed out by the water change. They would probably be beneficial either way. I have seen airstones, but where do you obtain the tubes? I have a couple of airstones that I've run in the past, and a couple of sponge filters that have tubes on them. I suppose I could get the same effect from the sponge units by just removing the sponge. They have a weighted base rather than suction cups.

As for the mesh bags- I'm sure they won't last a month between cleaning, but should last 2-3 weeks. And I know I'll have to do water changes and put clean floss in the HOB's. I've already bought the four replacement pouches to swap out the purigen while cleaning/recharging. Long term I will have to evaluate whether to replace the pouches or switch to the loose form with a bag. I was confident the pouches would fit around the mag filter, but was not sure how the loose product would work. I saw a media reactor on sale for about $79.00 on one website. I think it is the one Josie posted earlier. That is always another option.

BTW- The flow through the pouches is increasing every day. I'll try to get a pic tomorrow. The whole contents of the pouch are visibly moving rather than just small areas. Is that what you mean by "fluidized"? Suspended in fluid?

O C Discus,

The primary purpose of the lift tubes is to increase circulation of water at the bottom of the tank where the feces is. Let me start by explaining a simple experiment. Take a glass of water and add a teaspoon of rock salt to it, and then wait. It will take along time for the rock salt to dissolve. Now gently stir the water and the rock salt will dissolve much faster. End of experiment. What you are trying to accomplish is to get the organic compounds in the feces to dissolve so that it will breakup (the organic compounds hold it together). This is greatly assisted when there is motion of water near the feces. The bubble lift tube transports water from the bottom of the tank to the top. The water at the top of the tank then flows to the bottom to replace the water going up the tube, thus causing currents. I know for a fact that the bubble lift tubes greatly assist in the breakup of the feces, because I performed a simple experiment: turn off the air supply to the air stones, and the feces takes much longer to dissolve.

You can make your own bubble lift tubes by purchasing the individual parts. Clear rigid thin wall tubing can be obtained at petmountain.com . You will need two sizes, 1" OD and 3/16" OD. The flow spout can be obtained at thatfishplace.com . They call it a an elbow for a underground filter.

Fluidized means suspended in fluid. I have also noticed that the motion of Purigen improves somewhat after it is first used. Thats because Purigen is somewhat "sticky" when it is new. After it is in the reactor for a few days, it looses the stickiness.

I would like to ask you to do something for me. I am very interested in your Purigen reactor. I want you to keep me posted on how well your reactor is working. For example how often you service it and what you do to it when it is serviced. Also, closely monitor the motion of the Purigen beads in each of the four bags. Also, anything else about it.

Thanks Much.

Paul

[OC Discus]

Good morning Paul. It is good to hear from you. I will be happy to keep you updated on my reactor, as I am learning from you as I go.

Today I did the first large water change 80% since putting the system online. I think it ran 4 days without servicing except vacuum a few large pieces of feces the first two days. Observations after 4 days:
1. The tank glass, bottom, and water were much cleaner at the time of bi-weekly water change,
2. Floss in Hob Filters was less dirty and could go a week without servicing.
3. Purigen is flowing well in the canister and micron filter is ok.
4. Fish are all healthy, hungry and active.

Ive started a new test today. I want to see if the system can run 7 days without service and maintain water quality and appearance.
I added an airstone in each corner of the tank to increase circulation. Now the surface is being broken in 5 different places.

Ill try to post a video or two and a couple of pictures here taken today.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OC Discus]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/04/mame3e9u.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OC Discus]

Ive been noticing the clarity of my fish's eyes today:

The gold ring separating the pupil from the red part has come out on this bp

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/04/8y4enupa.jpg

The eyes on the bd have gone from dark to bright red

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/04/vyhy5y8e.jpg

And the eyes on my runt have gone from almost black to red

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/04/hajyjyve.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OC Discus]

Since 80% wc yesterday, almost all poop has dissolved. Below is a vid of the movement of the poop on the bottom before it breaks up, dissolves, and gets filtered out. These small pieces are all there is today, after lunch, about 30 hours since water change.

http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t651/OCDiscus/th_15B034E5-0FD1-4F9A-A915-BC356DC7F765_zpsu6mzivoy.jpg (http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t651/OCDiscus/15B034E5-0FD1-4F9A-A915-BC356DC7F765_zpsu6mzivoy.mp4)

[afriend]

Since 80% wc yesterday, almost all poop has dissolved. Below is a vid of the movement of the poop on the bottom before it breaks up, dissolves, and gets filtered out. These small pieces are all there is today, after lunch, about 30 hours since water change.

http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t651/OCDiscus/th_15B034E5-0FD1-4F9A-A915-BC356DC7F765_zpsu6mzivoy.jpg (http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t651/OCDiscus/15B034E5-0FD1-4F9A-A915-BC356DC7F765_zpsu6mzivoy.mp4)

O C Discus,

Good video. You got good water motion, more than enough to get the feces to dissolve, even with the sand. I would like to know if sand can be included in an aquarium with lots of decorative items, and still allow enough water motion to get the feces to dissolve. I've always wanted to have sand, but was concerned about the build up of crap in it. The Purigen does such a good job of removing organic compounds, that I think the addition of sand can be accomplished if the addition of sand does not hinder the water motion.

Thanks for posting the video.

Paul

[OC Discus]

Paul,

Pool filter sand is heavy enough that it is not shifted around, but fine enough that it forms a solid bed that keeps large pieces of waste from getting trapped. I think it also provides extra bio filtration- as the bb colonizes the surface of the sand and helps consume the fine waste/helps break down the large waste. My only question at this point is the long term build up of fine particulate matter. But as you suggested with your system, what is left behind probably does not contain much organic matter and a good vacuuming, either weekly or monthly, should remove much of what is there. I think in combination with the other elements of your system, it would not be an issue and may even enhance the filtration system. I'm no expert and welcome correction on this matter. I have just ordered an artificial stump as a centerpiece decoration. The pointed ends are all facing down, creating hiding places for the fish and eliminating potentially dangerous contact.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=19344

I'm starting to enjoy the hobby again now that I've gotten past issues of disease and water quality. I'm willing to service my micron filter and purigen every couple of weeks if that's what it takes to keep pristine water between water changes. The combination of the micron filter, the purigen reactor, and the sandbed for bio filtration have made my water and tank more attractive than its ever been. The water at the surface, under the LED lights is like clean glass.

I think I will monitor my system before adding any new elements. I like the idea of having dedicated canisters: 1) Pleated Micron Filter, 2) Purigen Reactor, 3) Bio Canister- sand or media. Looks like those moving sand bed filters would be a cost effective way to create the bio filter and the purigen reactor. My mag 350 already has a micron filter.

[BobB]

The purigen reactors are they anything like phosphate reactors used in reef tanks.

[afriend]

The purigen reactors are they anything like phosphate reactors used in reef tanks.

BobB,

First of all, I don't know of any reactor that is commercially available that is made to work with Purigen. This is due to the unique properties of Purigen. I would suggest reading part 4 of my presentation about the design, build and servicing of my Purigen reactor.

Paul

[afriend]

Paul,

Pool filter sand is heavy enough that it is not shifted around, but fine enough that it forms a solid bed that keeps large pieces of waste from getting trapped. I think it also provides extra bio filtration- as the bb colonizes the surface of the sand and helps consume the fine waste/helps break down the large waste. My only question at this point is the long term build up of fine particulate matter. But as you suggested with your system, what is left behind probably does not contain much organic matter and a good vacuuming, either weekly or monthly, should remove much of what is there. I think in combination with the other elements of your system, it would not be an issue and may even enhance the filtration system. I'm no expert and welcome correction on this matter. I have just ordered an artificial stump as a centerpiece decoration. The pointed ends are all facing down, creating hiding places for the fish and eliminating potentially dangerous contact.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=19344

I'm starting to enjoy the hobby again now that I've gotten past issues of disease and water quality. I'm willing to service my micron filter and purigen every couple of weeks if that's what it takes to keep pristine water between water changes. The combination of the micron filter, the purigen reactor, and the sandbed for bio filtration have made my water and tank more attractive than its ever been. The water at the surface, under the LED lights is like clean glass.

I think I will monitor my system before adding any new elements. I like the idea of having dedicated canisters: 1) Pleated Micron Filter, 2) Purigen Reactor, 3) Bio Canister- sand or media. Looks like those moving sand bed filters would be a cost effective way to create the bio filter and the purigen reactor. My mag 350 already has a micron filter.

O C Discus,

Got a good laugh at myself. When I read your statement "I have just ordered an artificial stump" I thought it read "I have just ordered an artificial SUMP" So I'm thinking, what the heck is an artificial sump and why would anyone use it as decoration? Then I clicked on the link and discovered my mistake when I saw the picture.

I agree with your assessment about using sand and vacuuming it up once a month. I'm going to try this as I have always wanted some type of substrate. Where do you get your sand from?

Would like to make a suggestion about how to use and regenerate your bags of Purigen. Set it up so that your four bags of Purigen have staggered use: one new bag, one bag regenerated once, one bag regenerated twice, and one bag regenerated three times. Or something similar to that.

SeaChem claims that Purigen looses 10% of its effectiveness each time that it is regenerated. I suspect that its more like 20% each time. Each bag contains 100ml of Purigen. A bag that has been regenerated once then has 80ml of effective Purigen, and a bag that has been regenerated twice has 60ml of effective Purigen, and so forth. Thus the four bags of staggered use has 280ml. of effective Purigen. This is far more than you need for 6 fish for 1/2 month.

My tank runs with 250ml of new Purigen and goes for 1 month with 10 adult discus (this is a very conservative estimate). Thus one can run on 25ml of effective Purigen per fish per month. Since you have 6 fish and run only 1/2 month, you can do the math.

Thanks for your help. By the recent response, it looks like we have stirred up some interest in this.

Paul

[OC Discus]

That's funny about the sump. I'm not sure how the sand will affect circulation with the large decoration in the tank, but I think it would be minimal.

I researched sand awhile back, and sd members almost unanimously recommended pool filter sand. It is a little courser and heavier than play sand so it doesn't get sucked up in the filters. I also remember being advised to go to an upscale pool store and get "non-silica" sand, since silicate is a food source for diatom. I was not able to get the "non silica" sand, and went to Home Depot to the pool section and got a bag of Quickcrete brand for about $10. I only put enough in the tank to cover the bottom- maybe 1/4 ". It is shallow enough so anaerobic bacteria cannot colonize in it. Before setting up the purigen reactor I was using the sand and after several months I started having a diatom problem. I don't think you will have that problem with your system, but it is something to consider. Silicate may be a substance that purigen can filter out, but I'm not sure of its impact on the purigen (shortened lifespan).

Thank you for the suggestion on staggering the service of the purigen pouches. I had not considered that their lifespan would be so diminished by each recharge. I'm not sure how long they will go before they need recharging. I would really like to get as much life out of them as possible. If recharging diminishes the lifespan, I should probably run them until their usefulness is almost gone before recharging. That is a new question for me to consider. I just received the 4 new pouches from Kensfish today. I was using 1/2 month as a minimum goal, but if I can use them more like 2-3 months (1/2 the recommended time) before recharging, they will last longer. I'm still in an experimental phase, so I'm not sure if I can get 2 weeks or 2 months before recharging. I'm also using 400 ml with 6 fish, so maybe I can get 2 months instead of one. Its also possible that the one nearest the water intake will need replacing before the others, which may be what you were thinking. I could rotate them with the newest one going furthest from the inlet and moving the others one step closer to the inlet each month- changing out one pouch per month.

I also got my replacement micron filter in today. Like the purigen, it can be cleaned, bleached, rinsed and re-used. While I originally planned to service the canister once or twice per month, putting in clean purigen and micron filter, I think I will wait until the purigen visibly needs changing to extend its lifespan. The good thing about the magnum 350 is you can see the media without opening the canister. I will probably put in a clean micron filter ever 2-4 weeks, as needed, and check the purigen each time, replacing only the bags that require cleaning. I think rinsing the purigen pouches in tank water every couple of weeks could also extend their life span.

I do think we've stirred up some interest. I have found most of the long term members of sd to be very passionate about fish health and water quality. Any shortcuts that would diminish water quality would be criticized. But anything that improves water quality and fish health will likely be embraced.

Your system, with automatic water changes, would be excellent for professional installations like Dr. Offices, Dentist Offices, Malls and Public places where one can't be doing daily water changes. It would also be great for large 200-300 gallon display tanks. I don't think I'll be able to set up the automatic water changes where I live, but with the right pumps and hoses it can be done much faster and easier. I bought a 320 gph fountain pump that can drain my tank in about 4 minutes. The only problem is I cant use it to vacuum the bottom. So I just received today a magnum 350 gph inline pump. I plan to put it in the bathtub or outside, depending on the weather, to vacuum and drain the tank. I can then use the fountain pump, or the magnum, to refill.

Anyway, I'm droning on. Thanks again for your help. I will give thought to your suggestion about staggering the purigen changes, especially the pouch nearest the inlet. I'll let you know how it goes.

[afriend]

O C Discus,

Thank you for the reply.


I researched sand awhile back, and sd members almost unanimously recommended pool filter sand. It is a little courser and heavier than play sand so it doesn't get sucked up in the filters. I also remember being advised to go to an upscale pool store and get "non-silica" sand, since silicate is a food source for diatom. I was not able to get the "non silica" sand, and went to Home Depot to the pool section and got a bag of Quickcrete brand for about $10. I only put enough in the tank to cover the bottom- maybe 1/4 ". It is shallow enough so anaerobic bacteria cannot colonize in it. Before setting up the purigen reactor I was using the sand and after several months I started having a diatom problem. I don't think you will have that problem with your system, but it is something to consider. Silicate may be a substance that purigen can filter out, but I'm not sure of its impact on the purigen (shortened lifespan).

Good information. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "Silicate may be a substance that purigen can filter out"? My understanding is that Purigen only absorbs organic compounds. Is there something here that I don't understand?

Interesting that you mention that it took several months before you had a diatom problem. I had a similar experience with black beard algae. I have always had some black beard algae in my aquariums over the years, but it was never a problem until a few months after I put the Purigen reactor online. I really don't know how or why this happened or if it occurred as a result of the Purigen. Anyhow, after some research, I found that there are two products that will control black beard algae (BBA): SeaChem Excel, and API CO2 Booster. These two products are normally used to increase CO2 levels for planted aquariums and are not sold for the purpose of controlling BBA. I tried the API product and it worked extremely well, but did not entirely remove all of the BBA, but the results are acceptable to me. I'm telling you this incase you have a similar problem. If you do, let me know and I'll tell you how I now control BBA with an automated system.


Thank you for the suggestion on staggering the service of the purigen pouches. I had not considered that their lifespan would be so diminished by each recharge. I'm not sure how long they will go before they need recharging.

Purigen does not suddenly stop working. Rather the effectiveness slowly diminishes as it used. The way to tell when it needs to be recharged is to watch how long it takes new feces to dissolve.

A couple of other things about Purigen. Don't let it dry out between uses as the Purigen beads will crack. Also, here's a way you might consider to reduce the cost of Purigen: You can purchase loose Purigen in the 2L size for about $80 (thats enough to make 20 100ml bags), and material to make your own bags is available at considerable savings. Let me know if you are interested and I can provide the links as to where to purchase.


Its also possible that the one nearest the water intake will need replacing before the others, which may be what you were thinking. I could rotate them with the newest one going furthest from the inlet and moving the others one step closer to the inlet each month- changing out one pouch per month.

Purigen only requires a very small amount of water flow to do its job, the flow can be so slow that there is no apparent motion. The best way to determine if it doing its job is to watch for the color change (some beads will be light and some dark). In the video you posted, one cannot tell the color of the beads. Perhaps the use of a flashlight will assist here.

Thanks again. You have no idea how much you have helped me. You are the first one to validate the results that I have achieved, and your exchange of ideas have helped me immensely.

Paul

[OC Discus]

Paul,

I'm not an expert on chemicals, but when I was keeping a reef tank I became familiar with silicates- an organic compound that feeds diatom. I will post a few links here that explain more than I can, and possibly some preventive measures.

Here is a long thread discussing the problem

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f45/silicates-125149.html

Here is a link to a silicate remover

http://www.petmountain.com/product/aquarium-filter-phosphate-silicate-media/11442-503270/seachem-seachem-phosguard-phosphate-silicate-control.html?utm_source=googleproductads&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term={keyword}&gclid=CKTQspC0_rwCFZLm7AodlkUAvg

Just something to go on. Google will help research further.

Those with bare bottom and daily water changes never have a silicate build up. But those with substrate who do less frequent water changes often do. I've had one member tell me he gets diatom in a bare bottom tank because the glass itself is made of silica. I'm curious to know if silicate and phosphate are removed by purigen.

Thanks for the tips about not letting the purigen dry out and about using the loose form. If my method does not last six months or longer with what I have, I will be looking to change it.

[OC Discus]

Below is a quote from a Seachem Representative on another forum.

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Madison, GA
Posts: 1,359

iTrader Ratings: 0
Seachem is a regular member

: Default Re: Purigen And Silicates

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Purigen removes nitrogenous waste. If you are looking for silicate and/or phosphate removal PhosGuard is what you will need to use. But, I suggest that you get a test kit to check your levels of silicate and phosphate.
Seachem is offline

[OC Discus]

Below is a link to a silicate test kit commonly used by reef keepers. I haven't tested for silicate and phosphate in my freshwater tank, but I suspect they are part of diatom and algae problems.

https://www.google.com/search?q=silicate+test+kit&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=-K4YU_qFF8X02QWWv4HADg&ved=0CK4BELMY&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.62577051%2Cd.b2I%2Cpv.xjs.s.en_US.V_LfeUcmU N4.O&biw=1093&bih=521&ech=1&psi=-K4YU_qFF8X02QWWv4HADg.1394126584231.3&emsg=NCSR&noj=1&ei=-K4YU_qFF8X02QWWv4HADg#spd=14321158199839675877

[afriend]

I also remember being advised to go to an upscale pool store and get "non-silica" sand, since silicate is a food source for diatom

O C Discus,

So what's the deal with non-silica sand, do you think it is no longer available. If I can get it, would it then remove the possibility of diatoms?

Thanks,

Paul

[OC Discus]

Hey Paul. I posted a couple of links in another thread about silicates, phosphates, and a product to remove them. If I start getting diatom again I might find the non silica sand and change out. Or find a way to add sea chem phosguard to the filter system. It would be worth researching before doing something that affects your system.

My tank was just sterilized not long before adding the reactor. Time will tell.


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[afriend]

Hey Paul. I posted a couple of links in another thread about silicates, phosphates, and a product to remove them. If I start getting diatom again I might find the non silica sand and change out. Or find a way to add sea chem phosguard to the filter system. It would be worth researching before doing something that affects your system.

O C Discus,

Thanks for the heads up. I'm going to be real careful before adding something that could potentially end up as a disaster.

Did you sterilize the tank to get rid of the diatome?

BTW, if you could determine the TDS of your tank water, I would sure like to know what it is. If you don't have a TDS meter, perhaps a LFS could help you out if you brought them a sample.

Paul

[OC Discus]

Paul,

I sterilized the tank because of a stubborn, reoccurring case of ick and possibly other parasites. It was a community tank with gravel before adding the discus. Later the gravel was removed and sand was added. In this process of converting from a community tank to a discus tank one of my fish developed parasites that kept coming back after treatment. After the third treatment the parasites were not responding to treatment. Al advised me to sterilize my quarantine tank with bleach, do salt dips on all the discus and move them to the quarantine tank, remove all the non discus and sand from the main tank and sterilize it with bleach. Then repeat daily salt dips, moving the fish to a sterilized tank after each dip. After 4 days, the fish were clear of all visible white spots. They were dipped one last time and put back into the main tank which was now bare bottom and sterilized twice. It worked like a charm to heal the fish. No losses (except the non discus which were discarded).

BTW, I serviced my Mag 350 canister today with an 80% water change. The water was still crystal clear before the wc, but I wanted to clean the micron filter. You asked for an update when I serviced the canister. I took everything out, rinsed the canister, parts, and purigen in hot water. Installed a new micron filter, and put the purigen pouches back in without recharging. They have darkened to a toffee color but not dark brown or black. I ll post a couple of pics below.

Keeping crystal clear water is costly- either changing most of it every day, or in high priced micron filters. I love the way the tank looks using the micron filter and purigen permenantly. I also like that the filters and purigen can be recharged. I m just not sure how long the magnum micron filters will last being bleached every 7-10 days. I'm also not sure how much mileage I'll get from the purigen in my setup. I will try to run the purigen for a month before recharging. We ll see. My large stump came in today. The fish like it already.

As for the sand, most sd members who use sand use pool filter sand. With daily water changes some don't have issues. If waste is allowed to accumulate in the sand it will develop brown algae, sand algae, or diatom. With your system and the 30% daily wc I'm not sure if enough sediment would accumulate between vacuuming for the algae to get established. Good luck.


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[OC Discus]

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[OC Discus]

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[OC Discus]

O C Discus,

BTW, if you could determine the TDS of your tank water, I would sure like to know what it is. If you don't have a TDS meter, perhaps a LFS could help you out if you brought them a sample.

Paul

Forgot about your TDS question. I don't have a meter, but can try to get it tested. This was probably an issue in past cases of diatom outbreak. What I can test I'll list here:

Ph- 7.2
Kh- 120-180
Gh- 150
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate- Not checked today. 0 last time checked.

[afriend]

BTW, I serviced my Mag 350 canister today with an 80% water change. The water was still crystal clear before the wc, but I wanted to clean the micron filter. You asked for an update when I serviced the canister. I took everything out, rinsed the canister, parts, and purigen in hot water. Installed a new micron filter, and put the purigen pouches back in without recharging. They have darkened to a toffee color but not dark brown or black. I ll post a couple of pics below.

O C Discus,

The crystal clear water is most likely due to the Purigen and not the micron filter or water changes (the water changes are necessary for other reasons). The length of time before the Purigen reactor needs servicing depends on two factors: the micron filter becomes plugged, or the Purigen is unable to process the organic compounds, what ever occurs first. Its easy to determine when the micron filter becomes plugged by checking the flow rate thru the canister filter. In your setup the Purigen will be unable to process the organic compounds when either of two events occur: the Purigen beads are no longer fluidized (watch the motion of the beads), or the Purigen needs to be recharged (watch how fast new feces dissolves). You have a very large amount of Purigen (400ml) and a fairly small organic load (6 fish). So I would estimate that you have sufficient Purigen to run for about 3 months before it needs recharging. Thus the limitation on time between servicing will probably be determined by the micron filter or debris blocking the Purigen bags.


Keeping crystal clear water is costly- either changing most of it every day, or in high priced micron filters. I love the way the tank looks using the micron filter and purigen permenantly. I also like that the filters and purigen can be recharged. I m just not sure how long the magnum micron filters will last being bleached every 7-10 days. I'm also not sure how much mileage I'll get from the purigen in my setup. I will try to run the purigen for a month before recharging. We ll see. My large stump came in today. The fish like it already.

You can reduce your costs by letting the Purigen reactor go longer before it is serviced. I really don't think that there is anything to be gained by doing it more often than necessary. The addition of Purigen in your system will reduce the organic compounds in the tank to near zero. Thus the conditions in the tank will remain in pristine condition (pristine here refers to healthy conditions, not water clarity) as long as the Purigen is doing its job and you keep up the water changes. The magnum micron filter can be cleaned many times (at least 25 times).


As for the sand, most sd members who use sand use pool filter sand. With daily water changes some don't have issues. If waste is allowed to accumulate in the sand it will develop brown algae, sand algae, or diatom. With your system and the 30% daily wc I'm not sure if enough sediment would accumulate between vacuuming for the algae to get established

I really don't expect algae will form on the sand because the nitrates are zero, and I don't have any phosphates. It will probably accumulate a very small amount of heavy solids, because thats what happens to my BB tank now.

After your stump has been in your tank for a month or more, take it out and give it the "sniff" test. If it smells fresh and not foul, that's a real good test indicating healthy tank conditions.

Your tank looks really clean.

Paul

[afriend]

Below is a link to a silicate test kit commonly used by reef keepers. I haven't tested for silicate and phosphate in my freshwater tank, but I suspect they are part of diatom and algae problems.

O C Discus,

Thanks for the link to a silicate test kit. I already have a phosphate kit and have determined that my tank has 0 phosphates.

Paul

[jalmince]

Hi !
I have read your 4 posts with a lot of interest, being currently looking for a way to reduce ( or eliminate..) algae in my discus tank.
I would love to build a reactor according to your design, but I do not have much time, and the refs in your part list won't be of much help here in Switzerland.
My question is the following: would it make sense to use a bag of Purigen inside a canister filter, may be at the expense of less efficiency ?
kind regards,
JeanPaul

[afriend]

Hi !
I have read your 4 posts with a lot of interest, being currently looking for a way to reduce ( or eliminate..) algae in my discus tank.
I would love to build a reactor according to your design, but I do not have much time, and the refs in your part list won't be of much help here in Switzerland.
My question is the following: would it make sense to use a bag of Purigen inside a canister filter, may be at the expense of less efficiency ?
kind regards,
JeanPaul

JeanPaul,

You can try it and see if it works for you. OCDiscus on this forum has had success this way and you might want to contact him for advice.

Here's a link to a reactor that I had success with for a QT tank I set up a couple of months ago:

http://pet-supplies.drsfostersmith.com/search?p=R&srid=S2-USWSD02&lbc=drsfostersmith&w=reactor&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.drsfostersmith.com%2fproduct% 2fprod_display.cfm%3fpcatid%3d11586&rk=1&uid=472543471&sid=2&ts=custom&rsc=lq7slxhAQDhBe%3aii&af=type%3aproduct&method=and&cartcount=0&isort=score

I was able to keep the Purigen beads out of the QT tank by placing a piece of 180 micron mesh between two sponges placed in the top of the reactor vessel. It worked for awhile without getting plugged up.

I would like to emphasize that just placing a Purigen reactor in the system will not reduce the algae and slime. In order to be successful at getting rid of algae and slime, you must reduce the nitrate level in your tank to zero. The Purigen reactor will greatly reduce the production of new nitrates, and sufficient water exchanges must be made to reduce these new nitrates to zero. All of this is dependant on the phosphates and nitrates in the source water to be zero. I suggest that you get API test kits for phosphates and nitrates.

I can assure you that this method works exceptionally well when properly implemented. If you also want to eliminate the need to siphon feces, the other parts of the "total filtration system" will need to be implemented *** well.

Hope this helps. Feel free to ask additional questions.

Paul

[OC Discus]

JeanPaul

Just to follow up on Paul's response, I've had great results from putting 4 100 ml pouches of Purigen around the micron filter in my canister. They fit loosely enough that the Purigen becomes fluidized- water circulates through it. I also have two other filters for mechanical and biological filtration.

While my system is not automated like Paul's, I do large 80% water changes weekly after removing the artificial stumps, rinsing them in hot running water, and wiping down all surfaces of the tank. It is bare bottom, so no surface is uncleaned except inside the filters.

For the past six months I have put clean floss in the 2 hang on filters weekly, put clean micron in the canister bi-weekly flushing all parts with hot running water each time. Once per month I put fresh Purigen in the canister and recharge the old. The good thing is all of my media can be re-charged/ cleaned by rinsing with hot water, soaking 24 hours in bleach, rinsing again, then soaking in clean water/prime til ready to use again.

I haven't noticed any decline in the purigens effectiveness since starting this system. The two sets of Purigen and micron filters will probably last at least a year being rotated like this.

Example of effectiveness: I was recently unable to do a water change for two weeks. I had to add a gallon or two of water about twice a week. Before the water change I tested the water. Ammonia and nitrite were 0 and nitrate was below ten. The water was still crystal clear.

The black coating that I used to get on the substrate that I thought was algae is non existent with weekly maintenance and just beginning at two weeks. I don't think it is algae, but protein much like is removed from reef tanks with a protein skimmer.

I know this approach is unorthodox on sd, but I'm not growing out fry. I understand the stendeker web site indicates adult discus can do fine in even higher nitrate.

Another caveate. I started this system after sterilizing my tanks 2-3 times and salt dipping my fish 4 days to remove parasites. The tank was sterile when I started.

Best regards.




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[Mu1198]

I have read carefully through this post and am in the process of applying this idea to my 500 gallon plywood tank. I have scaled up the reactor concept by using a nu-clear 506 and 1506 housing with similar assembly at the top to attach a pleated filter the same way you show in a whole house filter. I will have the water enter the canister at the bottom or reverse of normal flow and employ the included media tray as flow disbursement. I am still working on that polyester mesh as that company you mentioned for a supplier told me they will not sell to individuals. (I am currently attempting to procure the mesh through the local fish store through the same company) I will be using 1500ml of purigen in the beginning and keep a record to see if a proportionate application of the media will work. I already have a successful bio filter with fluidized K1. I use 100 micron socks first before using the same 25 micron pleated canister that you use. I water change to keep the nitrates low so I am hoping this will bridge that gap to 0 ppm or as near as possible!

Thank you for all this great information and I welcome any comments,

Matt

[afriend]

I have read carefully through this post and am in the process of applying this idea to my 500 gallon plywood tank. I have scaled up the reactor concept by using a nu-clear 506 and 1506 housing with similar assembly at the top to attach a pleated filter the same way you show in a whole house filter. I will have the water enter the canister at the bottom or reverse of normal flow and employ the included media tray as flow disbursement. I am still working on that polyester mesh as that company you mentioned for a supplier told me they will not sell to individuals. (I am currently attempting to procure the mesh through the local fish store through the same company) I will be using 1500ml of purigen in the beginning and keep a record to see if a proportionate application of the media will work. I already have a successful bio filter with fluidized K1. I use 100 micron socks first before using the same 25 micron pleated canister that you use. I water change to keep the nitrates low so I am hoping this will bridge that gap to 0 ppm or as near as possible!

Thank you for all this great information and I welcome any comments,

Matt

Matt,

Wish you all the very best of luck on your 500g plywood tank build project. I'm wondering if you also noticed the three stickies describing the other elements of the filtration system. Are you just implementing a purigen reactor, or do you intend to build a system like mine? Your approach on the purigen reactor sounds reasonable.

By the way, I ordered my screen material from the website listed in the parts list. Since the order form required the name of my company, I sold some discus awhile back, and decided right then that Ozark Discus was a good name for my business.

I assume that your reason for wanting the nitrates low is to eliminate algae. Don't forget to check your SOURCE water to verify that you have zero phosphate and zero nitrate, otherwise you will need to treat these before using the source.

The best of luck to you. If I can be of assistance, feel free to ask.

Paul

[Mu1198]

Paul,

I had read all of these great posts and I believe the other elements are covered. Bio load is way over built with K1 and it is seperate from the purigen but after the mechanical. Circulation is great to keep things moving and I stock with some corys and Geophagus as well. I am using sand as a substrate but minimal coverage so the fish do a great job of turning the sand for me. Occasionally I will get a little sand dune built up as I might bump a sump return nozzle and the flow starts to directly effect the sand. In those cases the fish don't sift deep enough to get to the bottom so I adjust and redistribute the sand. I definately keep up with water changes and still intend to keep the same schedule even after the the reactor is online.

I would say providing the best quality water for the fish is tops on the agenda. I read the part about zero phosphates, I am certain that I am in the clear with my water source but I will test it again.

With the mesh, I wondered if I had just made up a business then they might have shipped. My LFS owner is a great guy and is willing to order it for me. He is very interested in my results.

I will post again when the mesh comes in and the reactor is online. Will also get some pics in case someone wants to duplicate.

Matt

[afriend]

Matt,

Sounds great. Looking forward to some pictures.


I would say providing the best quality water for the fish is tops on the agenda. I read the part about zero phosphates, I am certain that I am in the clear with my water source but I will test it again.

Purigen will definitely improve water quality as it will remove organic compounds, the number one issue after ammonia and nitrite is taken care of by the biofilter. As far as nitrate is concerned, purigen greatly reduces the production of new nitrate, thus moderate water changes will then reduce it even more. Judging by the size of the reactor and the amount of purigen in it, you should have no problem in eliminating algae, the number one problem in keeping the tank nice and clean looking.

I believe that water changes are just as necessary after the purigen reactor is placed on line. Thats because their are other compound in the water column that can cause problems.

Of course the next issue is the automatic removal of feces. Is it your objective to obtain this result as well?

I am greatly interested in following your progress in this project, and hope you will let me know how it turns out.

Paul

[anti]

have you ever considered using npx bio plastics for nitrate control in your reactor? i have been reading a lot about it lately. supposedly it works on freshwater too

[afriend]

have you ever considered using npx bio plastics for nitrate control in your reactor? i have been reading a lot about it lately. supposedly it works on freshwater too

anti,

Never tried npx bio plastics. Actually the Purigen does such a good job at controlling nitrate AND also removes all dissolved organic compounds (DOCs). Perhaps it could be used to remove nitrates existing in the source water, but my well water contains zero nitrate.

Perhaps you already know this, but Purigen does not absorb nitrate, it just greatly reduces the production of new nitrates.

Thanks for your response.

Paul

[gordo33]

Thanks for putting together the series for your filtration system. Your system is amazing! I would like to expand my basic system to improve the water quality in my 75 gal planted tank with gravel substrate. Currently I have a Rena xp3 canister filter. This is rectangular with 3 baskets to hold sponges and filter media.

I would like to attempt your DIY purigen filter. The build instructions are clear but I have a question regarding the center PVC tube for the upper assembly. The section with the drilled holes fits into a tee that you describe being plugged at the top section of the tee. How is this plugged? Is the plugs purpose to prevent water that is exiting the filter from flowing back down the tube where the incoming water is entering the tee?

I have a second xp3 filter that I would like to add to my tanks filtration dedicate this to biological filtration and wonder if I can connect the Purigen filter by teeing the xp3 intake. One concern I have would there be enough pressure to send the water back up too my tank. Do you think this would be effective?

A third but significantly more complex set up would be to try to simulate your plumbing and use an external pump to drive the two Rena filters and the Purigen filter. Or maybe just run it independently with its own pump???

Your input would be greatly appreciated!!

Glenn

[afriend]

Glenn,

Glad to hear from you and I'll try to answer you as best as I can.


I would like to expand my basic system to improve the water quality in my 75 gal planted tank with gravel substrate.

I would not use gravel substrate. Far too much chance for feces and uneaten food to become trapped. Sand is a better substrate because it tends to keep the feces and uneaten food from becoming trapped. I use a BB tank. Also, my filtration system produces very near zero nitrates. I have not tried to use it with a planted tank, so please be advised.


The build instructions are clear but I have a question regarding the center PVC tube for the upper assembly. The section with the drilled holes fits into a tee that you describe being plugged at the top section of the tee. How is this plugged? Is the plugs purpose to prevent water that is exiting the filter from flowing back down the tube where the incoming water is entering the tee?

The purpose of the T is to direct the water coming in from the center of the T downward to the bottom where it enters the chamber. The water then flows upward thru the purigen and then thru the pleated filter and then thru the holes drilled into the PVC pipe. This water then flows upward thru the pipe and out the vessel. The plug keeps the water separated in the T. The plug is fabricated from a piece of 1/16 thick acrylic sheet available from Home Depot. I fits snugly inside the T and is glued with PVC cement.


I have a second xp3 filter that I would like to add to my tanks filtration dedicate this to biological filtration and wonder if I can connect the Purigen filter by teeing the xp3 intake. One concern I have would there be enough pressure to send the water back up too my tank. Do you think this would be effective?

Be sure that the water flows thru a mechanical filter first. You want to keep all of the crap out of the biological filter and the purigen reactor. The volume of water thru the purigen reactor is very small (about 1 g/m is enough, larger amounts only tend to plug up the reactor sooner). Use valves to direct the proper volume of water flow. By partially blocking water flow you can create enough back pressure to get the right flow thru the reactor.


A third but significantly more complex set up would be to try to simulate your plumbing and use an external pump to drive the two Rena filters and the Purigen filter. Or maybe just run it independently with its own pump???

I don't know the flow rate generated by the Rena filter. My external pump produces 1000 g/h . Since the tank is 100 g, it circulates thru the pump 10 times each hour. This amount of circulation is important to achieve the results that I have obtained.

[gordo33]

Thanks for the detailed explanations to my questions. I have some follow up questions/comments


Glenn,

Glad to hear from you and I'll try to answer you as best as I can.



I would not use gravel substrate. Far too much chance for feces and uneaten food to become trapped. Sand is a better substrate because it tends to keep the feces and uneaten food from becoming trapped. I use a BB tank. Also, my filtration system produces very near zero nitrates. I have not tried to use it with a planted tank, so please be advised..

My tank is already set up and running with gravel. I think I have read somewhere on this forum removing gravel with fish still in the tank is not safe for fish secondary to stirring up trapped substances (pathogens ,parasites, etc.).
My tap water has a low level nitrates so they will always be introduced with wc. I like how planted tank looks and would be willing to convert to sand but have no where to store my fish.


Be sure that the water flows thru a mechanical filter first. You want to keep all of the crap out of the biological filter and the purigen reactor
I was hoping the first canister filter would catch most of the crap while the second one would have "cleaner" water flowing through it. I would use a sponge on the intake as a pre-filter. I can add mechanical filtration to the upper basket.


Use valves to direct the proper volume of water flow. By partially blocking water flow you can create enough back pressure to get the right flow thru the reactor.

Can you explain or direct me to resources that explains how this works. My knowledge here is minimal and I like to understand how things work


I don't know the flow rate generated by the Rena filter. My external pump produces 1000 g/h . Since the tank is 100 g, it circulates thru the pump 10 times each hour. This amount of circulation is important to achieve the results that I have obtained

The flow rate with all media is 187 g/hr(without media 350 g/hr but I guess this number is meaningless) With 2 filters running that gives me approx. 375 gal/hr. That gives me 5x per hour. Does the 10x flow rate for your system include the resistance through the filters and pipes. It looks like your plumbing has many bends and some 90* elbows. How far does your plumbing go to reach your display tank?

Thanks again for your assistance. I want to do this right for the health of my fish and the tanks appearance. I forgot to mention in my first post your display tank looks amazing

Glenn

[sayid]

hi Poul ;
thanks very much for putting such an interesting series of articles based on your experimentation with your set up .i have just discovered SD and therefore your thread .like yourself i have devoted my time to provide the best environment for my discus .i am relatively new to discus (about 4 years ) i have a 500 liter tank ( 133 gallon ) lightly planted i.e 7 plant pot and lightly covered with play sand ( river sand ) .
i am lucky that i live in Melbourne Australia and my tape water comes with ph 6.8 kh 0 gh 2 amm 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 0 phosphate 0 .
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah86/sayidbassiray/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180253_zpshmejjs7v.jpg (http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/sayidbassiray/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180253_zpshmejjs7v.jpg.html)
i have 8 adult discus ,8 coris , 2 b/n cat fish ,4 ruminose and 4 harlequin tetra and feed them tetra bits ,b/heart,hikari bio gold etc twice a day. i have a24 watt UV sterilizer ,two canister filter each has 582 gph flow plus an internal filter 211 gph so my total turnover is a bit more than 10 times of the tank but in real world with matrix and sponge in both canister the turnover is about 5 times the tank volume .
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah86/sayidbassiray/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180253_zpshmejjs7v.jpg (http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/sayidbassiray/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180253_zpshmejjs7v.jpg.html)
my nitrate use to be 20 ppm and about 6 months ago i put a sun sun vessel filled with 1.5 liter of seachem denitrate ,the flow is by one of the canister filter and it is adjustable b y means of a valve and after a lot of trials i found the best flow to give me the lowest nitrate level is about 4 gph and my nitrate level is about 1 ppm using API test kit. after reading your 4 parts total filtration system 3 times i have decided to introduce a puregin reactor but before we get into that i have to tell you that my fish are very happy ,their color are good ,i have no problem with algae ,the glass get cleaned once a fortnight if that ,i still have to vacuum the poop every morning and my plants are not growing as much as before but are healthy .
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah86/sayidbassiray/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180136_zpsyufqsqhx.jpg (http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/sayidbassiray/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180136_zpsyufqsqhx.jpg.html)http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah86/sayidbassiray/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180157_zps7pvlv7p6.jpg (http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/sayidbassiray/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180157_zps7pvlv7p6.jpg.html)http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah86/sayidbassiray/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180213_zps6vc33xyq.jpg (http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/sayidbassiray/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180213_zps6vc33xyq.jpg.html)
i tried to get a MRI reactor but found that the manufacturer has gone out of business ,i have never used a reactor or puregin before so what reactor would you recommend since i am not as handy as you and i rather buy something off the shelf . BTW i have prefilter sponge on both canisters and they get cleaned together with the sponge of the internal filter twice a week ,also 50 % water change per week,but my canisters filter get cleaned once a year ,they just don't get dirty and my flow is good all the time.thanks for reading this any comment or criticism would be appreciated.
regards
sayid

[sayid]

hi Poul;thank you for getting back to me , this was my second reply to a thread in SD so when i received a massage saying that a moderator needs to look at it and accept it i just thought well that the way it is but did not hear back, any way i just have discovered SD and was particularly interested in your approach towards keeping your tank clean.
i have a 500 liter tank ( 133 gallon ) lightly planted with 8 adult discus, 8 different tetras ,8 cories ,and 2 b/n catfish .the plants are in pots and the substrate is about 1 inch river sand ,the tank is about 4 years old my filtration system consist of 2 canister filter 2200 lph each ,an internal filter 800 lph which theoretically should give over 10 times the the tank volume but with sponge in one canister and seachem matrix in the other its more like 5 times the tank.my parameter use to be
1.ph 6.8
2.gh 2
3.kh 1
4.amm 0
5.nitrite 0
6.nitrate 10-20
i use API test kit and it difficult to distinguish between 10 and 20 PPM . i am lucky that the water out of tap in Melbourne Australia is very soft so all i need is to add some prime and warm it up ,my temperature is 30 c , i use to get green algae on the drift wood ,black algae on the java fern and general dirt and needed to clean the tank a few times a week ,about 12 month ago i joint a 2.8 liter sun sun external vessel powered by one of canister with an adjustable tap and after a series of tests found that the lowest nitrate level is achievable with a very low flow ( 10 lph ) so with 2 liter of seachem matrix in the vessel and low flow my nitrate is about 2 PPM and that has reduced my algae and i practically don't have to clean the glass.
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah86/sayidbassiray/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_175954_zpskkw8rqyo.jpg (http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/sayidbassiray/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_175954_zpskkw8rqyo.jpg.html)
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah86/sayidbassiray/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180136_zpsyufqsqhx.jpg (http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/sayidbassiray/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180136_zpsyufqsqhx.jpg.html)
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah86/sayidbassiray/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180157_zps7pvlv7p6.jpg (http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/sayidbassiray/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180157_zps7pvlv7p6.jpg.html)
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah86/sayidbassiray/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180213_zps6vc33xyq.jpg (http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/sayidbassiray/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180213_zps6vc33xyq.jpg.html)
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah86/sayidbassiray/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180253_zpshmejjs7v.jpg (http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/sayidbassiray/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_180253_zpshmejjs7v.jpg.html)
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah86/sayidbassiray/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_175954_zpskkw8rqyo.jpg (http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/sayidbassiray/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151219_175954_zpskkw8rqyo.jpg.html)
I also got a UV sterilizer 24 w to reduce algae and parasites .
my works been reduced but still i need to pick up poop every day , my next task will be to increase the flow inside the tank to try and dissolve the feces even more and pick up the heavy solid pieces let say every 2 days. before i forget i have prefilter sponges on both canister which are very easy to change ( 2 times a week ).
your set up is awesome and i am sure costly .things like purigen ,reactors ,pleated filters are at least twice the price in Australia so i am trying to copy what you have done but cheaper and not as elaborate and sophisticate as yours . the plants in the tank are so far happy with 2-3 PPM nitrate although they are not growing very much so getting 0 nitrate is probably pushing it too far for the plant but having said that this is primarily a discus tank and if i have to get rid of the plants and the sand so be it .
thank for the trouble of reading this ,please let me know what you think,
regards
sayid

[sayid]

hi Paul
thanks for replying to my PM and the kind words on my set up ,i have already put up one bubble lift tube and waiting to get a map of where the feces are accumulating . i have one question ,the use of air stone in the bubble tube ,is it necessary ? at the moment mine is just the air tube inside an acrylic tube i.e no air stone.
sayid

[afriend]

hi Paul
thanks for replying to my PM and the kind words on my set up ,i have already put up one bubble lift tube and waiting to get a map of where the feces are accumulating . i have one question ,the use of air stone in the bubble tube ,is it necessary ? at the moment mine is just the air tube inside an acrylic tube i.e no air stone.
sayid

Sayid,

Really like your tank, it's so clean and nice. Your fish are beautiful also.

As to using an acrylic tube without an air stone, I've never tried it that way. My guess is that it will pump more water with smaller bubbles when you use an air stone. My guess is based on this logic: for an equal total volume of air, small bubbles have a greater surface area and therefore will "push" a greater volume of water up the tube.

I recently upgraded my membership on SD to Homesteader and now have my own "web-page" so to speak. I would like to invite you to visit at the following link:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?372-Adult-Discus-Show-Tank-(afriend)-NW-Arkansas

I like your country very much and have been there twice diving at your beautiful Great Barrier Reef. The people there are so friendly.

Paul

[sayid]

hi Paul;
thanks for the logical explanation of reason for using air stone ,it makes sense .A few weeks ago you showed some interest in regards to use of pool sand on the bottom of your tank ,i have used pool sand ,river sand and play sand ,they are based on silica and therefore similar in hardness to the glass, despite being very careful i have got scratches on my front glass especially if you use the magnetic glass cleaner like i do ,all you need one small particle of sand on your glass cleaner .
regards
sayid

[sayid]

hi Paul;
i was looking through seachem website and there was question / ans ware regarding purigen and some one wrote that they have used a reactor made by : simplicity chemical reactor : and he was very happy with it and there is another version of it using UV and a catalyst where they convert the organic waste into harmless compound and CO2 .i was going to ask you what do you think and whether it would be practical for people without sump.
regards
sayid

[afriend]

sayid,

Here's another possible alternative for your reactor. I have used this on my QT tank a number of times and it works pretty good. It's a HOB (hang on back) type. You can find these here in the US at many pet stores online. It's called a PhosBan Reactor 150. There's a picture of it contained here:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122462-Part-4-The-Filtration-System

You said that you are presently cleaning your filters once per year. When you get your new system working properly, you will have to clean it much more often. I do mine once a month. That's because the feces and uneaten food contains inorganic compounds and allot of them are going to end up in the mechanical filter.


UV and a catalyst where they convert the organic waste into harmless compound and CO2 .i was going to ask you what do you think and whether it would be practical for people without sump.

Thanks for the info. I'll look into it.

By the way, I really like your beautiful fish. They are obviously healthy.

One other thing, I would recommend that you increase your water change.

Paul

[sayid]

hi Paul;
Thanks for getting back to me ,i have located a phosban reactor 550 which i can get new for a good price ,i also have 2 canister filters which i can use one to push through 1 gpm of pre filtered water through .
you have two screen mesh that you have sandwiched between 2 sponges ,could you please tell me how many micron is it and where can i buy it from,i think you mentioned some where that it is polyester .
Thanks for the kind words regarding my fish ,actually i am going through a 10 days course of sterazin ( deworming medication ),one of my fish has a chronic fluke problem and i have to do the whole tank , in fact i am thinking of drastically reduce the sand in the tank to improve the health of the fish ,regarding the water change you are spot on and from last week i have started to do 2 lot of 50% per week.
regards
sayid

[afriend]

hi Paul;
Thanks for getting back to me ,i have located a phosban reactor 550 which i can get new for a good price ,i also have 2 canister filters which i can use one to push through 1 gpm of pre filtered water through .
you have two screen mesh that you have sandwiched between 2 sponges ,could you please tell me how many micron is it and where can i buy it from,i think you mentioned some where that it is polyester .
Thanks for the kind words regarding my fish ,actually i am going through a 10 days course of sterazin ( deworming medication ),one of my fish has a chronic fluke problem and i have to do the whole tank , in fact i am thinking of drastically reduce the sand in the tank to improve the health of the fish ,regarding the water change you are spot on and from last week i have started to do 2 lot of 50% per week.
regards
sayid

Sayid,

A PhosBan 150 is large enough for your application and is a few dollars less. However the 550 model will certainly do the job just fine.

The screen mesh that I used is 250 micron (0.000250 inch). It can be somewhat larger and still function properly. The purigen beads are approximately 0.030 inch diameter. My source for it is:

http://compsuco.com

Part Number U-CMYK-250

The reason I recommend Polyester is that it is fairly stiff which makes it much easier to cut accurately. They can be cleaned and reused. I suggest something like a toothbrush for cleaning.

As far as your plants are concerned, it might be possible to regulate the flow rate thru the reactor such that just enough nitrate is available and yet allow the absorpition of enough organic material to permit the feces to dissolve. This is just a theory. I have no idea if it would work or not. I would suggest that you get the feces to dissolve and then try and get the plants to grow.

I just want to reiterate that circulation at the tank bottom is important to get the feces to dissolve. It doesn't take much circulation however. If you can detect any slight motion of the feces, then the circulation is sufficient.

Do you know what your tank water TDS is at?

Buy the way, if you can't locate the mesh material, I have some extra that you can have.

Paul

[sayid]

Hi Paul;
I have looked at the screen mesh supplier's web site and there is not the exact product ,i have dropped a line if they have some thing close ,in the mean time i am looking for a screen mesh locally in Melbourne and if i could not get any where i will take you on your offer.
Regarding the plants ,if i have to get rid of them so be it ,the discus comes first . I have 2 groups of plant first group are root feeders ,that means if they have fertilizer tablets under the sand in the plant pot they are happy with zero nitrate in the water ,the second group get fed through their leaves and ,they need nitrate ,i think i have enough circulation since i see little feces movement but i don;t know my TDS value.
Thanks for the screen mesh offer .
regards
sayid

[afriend]

Hi Paul;
I have looked at the screen mesh supplier's web site and there is not the exact product ,i have dropped a line if they have some thing close
sayid

Sayid,

I just checked and as far as I can determine it is available.

http://compsuco.com

select "polyester mesh"
select "polyester mesh"
locate U-CMYBK-250" and select "9.54" to specify 1/4 yard
small window then indicates part number "U-CMYBK-250-A"
the "A" specifies the amount (1/4 yard)

Hope this helps you.

Paul

[sayid]

hi Paul;
i am just going to do it now,thanks.
regards
sayid

[farebox]

I've done the same thing with my reactor suggestion about the screen mesh from Afriend, works perfect. Also as an precaution, taken one of those permanent plastic mesh coffee filter and atttached to side of sump to catch any loose purigen.

[sayid]

plastic mesh coffee filter ,that is a very good idea.

[afriend]

I've done the same thing with my reactor suggestion about the screen mesh from Afriend, works perfect. Also as an precaution, taken one of those permanent plastic mesh coffee filter and atttached to side of sump to catch any loose purigen.

farebox,

Sounds like a good idea. It's not easy to cut the filter screen so that it stops all of the purigen from going into the tank. It can be done however.

The purigen beads are not harmful to the fish according to the SeaChem techs.

Hope this helps,

Paul

[farebox]

Check out this video to get what I was talking about using the coffee filter with my Purigen reactor: https://youtu.be/X7CEcFJ3Qfg

[Tshethar]

Just want to say thanks for keeping up the dialogue on these things, with links to product supplies, and to share what I did.

Roland, I like the coffee filter! Seems like a good approach for a sump application.

In my case, I set up a Phosban 550 branched off an Eheim 2217 that returns to my main tank. I cut a spare Seachem "The Bag" I had and sandwiched it between the rigid plastic disks Phosban sells for containing fluidized bio-media pellets, along with some 100 or 200 micron filter fabric I had around as a sort of prefilter. Now that things are stabilized, I'm not getting any bypass; at first I did see a little, though that may have come from the way I was moving things around during initial setup. (I think a little ended up in the return tubing.) When I saw a few beads blowing around in the tank, I zip tied a spare small 100mg purigen bag I had laying around to the end of the return, which goes into the display. It worked great, and was fairly unobtrusive; after a couple of months, it did start to grow algae. Since it was no longer collecting anything, I removed it.

[sayid]

hi farebox;
very good setup and clever use of coffee filter ,my problem is that i have not got a sump ,you also have beautiful and healthy fish.

[sayid]

hi guys;
i have had problems with my plants for some time ,i have had black bits which i did not know whether they are dead l leaves or they are feces ,the plants also slowed my circulation which effected the rate of dissolving of the feces.
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah86/sayidbassiray/20160118_212120_zpsiavyawkl.jpg (http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/sayidbassiray/media/20160118_212120_zpsiavyawkl.jpg.html)
i am also in the middle of 10 days medication period and having sand and plants reduces its effectiveness so 30 minutes ago i thought i had enough and took all the plants out so i can establish if my circulation is adequate or not ,also today i cleaned one of my canisters after 4 months ,it was not excessively dirty but i thought i have to start from a clean base ,i use 2 big prefilters 1 for each canister which can be seen in the photo ,the prefilters are cleaned twice a week and its a 10 second job . i am still in the process of building the reactor out of phosban 550 . I will put a progress report as i go forward .
sayid

[ssevasta]

Is there anyway if you find the time that you could copy your pictures over to Flickr or some other service? The only reason I ask is because I'd really like to build three of these for my tanks but photobucket redirects me to spyware "you won this free iPad" crap websites after 30 seconds of viewing an image.