How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?

[aqualogic]

Hello everyone, been lurking here, looking into Discus, trying to divulge in as much as information as possible. My primary question with looking into Discus as of late is if I can keep a single Discus in a tank.

Now I know the case with Discus, they're a shoaling fish and should be kept in tanks no less than 55 gallons and a minimum of 6 per tank. This seems to be the rule of the thumb, outside of PH levels, R/O, 80+ degree water temperature, etc.

I've read all the threads and know about the general backlash individuals get for even attempting to raise a single Discus anything below a 30 gallon.

My general question lies in the local fish shops that sell Discus in my area. Almost all of them keep their Discus in tanks no bigger than 10 gallons. Some of them are bigger than 5 inches and they're in tanks no bigger than 30 gallons by themselves. The tanks themselves all looked clean and the Discus looked generally healthy from my experience. I'm no expert, however, I frequent these shops every now and then. They're located everywhere in my area, I've been to 5 different shops, all Discus were kept in smaller tanks by themselves or 3 at the most.

Even the higher end local fish stores that have all the positive ratings keep their Discus by themselves in small tanks. They're not your typical LFS that is just trying to sell you fish. I've been frequenting these shops from time to time and I notice the same Discus still survive under these conditions. While they're probably not thriving, they're certainly surviving somehow, what's their secret?

[strawberryblonde]

No big secret, they don't keep them for the life of the discus. They sell them as quickly as possible, and if they don't sell them quickly enough they dispose of them when they die.

Can you keep a single adult discus in a 30 gallon tank alive? Sure! No way of knowing how long its life span will be, but you can do it. It's just not the optimal conditions for keeping discus and very few people here would consider doing it. It comes down to wanting to enjoy the hobby and provide the best life possible for the expensive fish you buy. But if that's what you really want to do, then go do it, no need to ask for permission. =)

[aqualogic]

How lucrative are discus to a LFS? I ask because one of the LFS sells their Discus for $40 (medium sized) while the higher end LFS sells them for $70. I can't imagine that they get them cheaper than we do, unless they breed them.

A quick search on Yelp shows the higher end LFS showcasing several single-tanked Discus with different types of community fish. Keeping Discus by themselves or outside their normal habitats can lead to stress, which can in turn, lead to disease. It seems rather risky to do in a show tank?

I only ask this question because this particular LFS seems to be a trusted source, they're in the business of building aquariums and house all different types of Discus, and seem to be doing it successfully, even though most of the advice I've researched on has advised against their methods.

[Nu2Discus]

Wow, I've never seen a LFS keeping discus in singles, in small tanks. Bettas yes, but not discus.

You ask if there is a secret to keeping discus alive all by itself, in a small tank. I don't think there is one. As long as the water is good quality, why wouldn't the fish stay alive? If You were locked in a closet, but had a light on, and had food shoved through a small opening, you'd be able to live there too. As long as you had decent oxygen and food, you'd survive. But would you be thriving there? No. Same with the fish.

[strawberryblonde]

How lucrative are discus to a LFS? I ask because one of the LFS sells their Discus for $40 (medium sized) while the higher end LFS sells them for $70. I can't imagine that they get them cheaper than we do, unless they breed them.

A quick search on Yelp shows the higher end LFS showcasing several single-tanked Discus with different types of community fish. Keeping Discus by themselves or outside their normal habitats can lead to stress, which can in turn, lead to disease. It seems rather risky to do in a show tank?

I only ask this question because this particular LFS seems to be a trusted source, they're in the business of building aquariums and house all different types of Discus, and seem to be doing it successfully, even though most of the advice I've researched on has advised against their methods.

They get them for much MUCH less than we do. Less than $5.00 per fish.

So why are you continuing to ask these questions? What is it that you are hoping to hear from us?

Again, can discus live alone in a 30 gallon tank...yes, of course they can. Can they live with other tank inhabitants? Sometimes yes, sometimes no...depends on what you decide to put in there. For a short while you can put fish who like disparate temperature zones in the same tank and they will live. The ones who require lower temps will have shorter life spans and be more prone to illness.

Does that answer your questions?

Is the point of this exercise to try to "prove" to us that it's ok for you to buy one discus and put him in a community tank? If so, again I say, you don't need our permission, go for it. It will be sub optimal conditions for your discus, and if you can live with that, it's fine by me.

[Gorf]

You ask if there is a secret to keeping discus alive all by itself, in a small tank. I don't think there is one. As long as the water is good quality, why wouldn't the fish stay alive? If You were locked in a closet, but had a light on, and had food shoved through a small opening, you'd be able to live there too. As long as you had decent oxygen and food, you'd survive. But would you be thriving there? No. Same with the fish.

Excellent point.

[tonytheboss1]

:bandana: Just because something is being done or can be done doesn't necessarily mean it SHOULD be done. Like others before me have stated, the objective should be to best provide optimal conditions for the Discus to THRIVE. Survival is a cheap trick & nothing to brag about. You seem determined so I fear the worst but if you can read all the info HERE & outside source info from almost every major Discus author in the last 50yrs & still choose to do other than follow the conventional wisdom then as stated by my 'namesake' "you need no permission".......carry on. "T"

[discuspaul]

Wow, I've never seen a LFS keeping discus in singles, in small tanks. Bettas yes, but not discus.

You ask if there is a secret to keeping discus alive all by itself, in a small tank. I don't think there is one. As long as the water is good quality, why wouldn't the fish stay alive? If You were locked in a closet, but had a light on, and had food shoved through a small opening, you'd be able to live there too. As long as you had decent oxygen and food, you'd survive. But would you be thriving there? No. Same with the fish.

Not only is this a good analogy, but it can be taken a little further. By and large, discus are very social animals, just as we humans are (except perhaps for the odd 'loner'). So, in addition to the 'being kept in a closet & fed' example, what do you think a human would become under those circumstances with no other human to communicate with at any time ? At the very least, a 'very lonely camper' - same goes for discus - they thrive in large social groups, but by themselves with no others of their own kind around, ever, who knows....., but one can well imagine.

As for LFS's selling discus, not only does Toni make an excellent point in her first post above,
but many, if not most, LFS operators/owners/salespersons know very little, or nothing, about discus and don't know how to care for them properly to ensure they thrive. They may know a good deal about fish-keeping generally, but their knowledge of discus is usually skimpy at best. They're businesspeople for the most part, and devote their energies into selling fish quickly before they succumb to less than ideal treatment and proper care.

[Nu2Discus]

Another thing I heard, was actually from a video from bulk reef supply. The guy said something along the lines of, that you can probably be successful with almost any strategy with your fishtank for up to year. But if you are not doing things the proper way, things will start to fall apart then. Basically saying, it may work for a while, but eventually if you're not doing it right, it will catch up to you. So when someone says, I've been doing "X" and it's been fine, ask them how long has it been doing fine.

[myofibroblast]

Aqualogic,

I've been reading a lot of articles about discus fish as well and a newbie like you! I hope you will take the plunge and enjoy discus fish. They're so incredibly fun to watch!

As for your primary question:

The conventional wisdom will be that to keep a single discus is ill-advised. I think we all appreciate that the nature of "conventional wisdom" necessarily derives from anecdotal evidence/aggregate experience at best, and hearsay at its most common. If you want to know what the experience of keeping a single discus is, it's probably best that you ask this question at many different forums and seek out experiences from people who have first-hand experience in keeping a single discus in a community tank. Their success/failure will necessarily differ from your own experience because no two aquarium (and their keepers) are identical. Those who have not endeavored in raising a single discus can only offer speculation, theory (sometimes rather comically anthropomorphic to the tune of "lonely" or "sad" or "anxious", as if clinical depression/anxiety and the criteria for their diagnoses truly exist), or second-hand unverified information. That being said, I have read online people who have success keeping a single discus. And if you take the plunge and do it, you may add to that experience as well! You'll find a good list online regarding water parameters that may be compatible for your community fishies. One thing you might want to find out is whether the discus your LFSs are selling truly require R/O, acidic pH, blah blah blah. Like many animals, discus acclimate, and some are born and raised in water environments that are totally different from the Amazon. If they have been living in your LFS tank in just 84F dechlorinated pH 7.2 tap water, putting them in your super special pH 6.0 88F peat moss in the HOB and floating almond leaves R/O water may actually cause more physiologic deviance when you first introduce them. Just a theory.

As for your general question:

I have seen LFS use a communal water tank (like at least 300 or 400 gallon) hidden somewhere and that water is piped to each tiny display aquarium...maybe analogous to a giant refugium with tens of tiny display tanks. So the water quality may actually be better than water confined to those 10 or 5 gallon display tanks you see. Or maybe it's not the case in your LFS. It's difficult to say how long these LFS operators are able to keep the discus in those small tanks, but I imagine probably at least several weeks, if not months. Keep in mind that sometimes people medicate their fish in treatment buckets that are usually 5 gallons, and the treatments can sometimes last days (and they are already sick to begin with). So it's possible to keep them alive in small volumes of water, as per the previous experts have indicated. Whether keeping discus in small tanks allows them to thrive? I'm not sure how to answer that question. Thrive is such a subjective, nebulous term. I think a more specific question will help the experts (not me) answer your question. May I suggest asking for specific end-points, i.e. Does keeping a single discus in a 10 gallon aquarium bare bottom aquarium with XYZ filtration result in higher annual incidence of ABC disease (or annual growth rate as measured by diameter....you get the point) vs a 30/40/50/60/75/100 gallon bare bottom aquarium with identical/similar water conditions? I suspect you will get very few, if any, answers if you asked something specific with a defined end-point. You will likely get something to the tune of "in general...." "maintaining environmental stability is much easier in larger vs. smaller.." etc etc which you have, no doubt, read ad nauseum.

But I submit that none of these end-poiint questions is really important if you just enjoy having a discus fish. If you get the itch to try your hands at having one in your 30 gallon community aquarium, just do it and be the expert at it! Being in YOUR 30 gallon may prove to be much more fun/less stressful than being cramped in a tiny cubicle exposed to hundreds of gawking strangers (and I'm not talking about pet stores....try looking up "discus fish show" on youtube and you'll see what I mean!).

[yim11]

No big secret, they don't keep them for the life of the discus. They sell them as quickly as possible, and if they don't sell them quickly enough they dispose of them when they die.

This is your answer - LFS simply don't keep them long enough to worry about disease, stunting, poor conditions, etc. If they are still there 30 days after arrival (and alive lol) they go on sale.

Looks like the single discus part has been well covered lol.

[aqualogic]

Well I thank you for the responses, I'm not going to say I'm not tempted about getting a Discus, they're a beautiful fish and the more I see pictures and video of them, the more I want to give them a try.

The general perception that I've gotten out of this fish is that they're super high maintenance that require the following:

- minimum 55 gallon aquarium
- minimum 5-6 tank mates
- Perfect crystal clear R/O | D/O water
- PH 6.5/7.0
- Soft water
- 80/85 degree water temperature
- Daily to weekly water changes with 0 ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, etc.

I've given these fish a lot of thought but so far refrained from giving them a try due to the requirements and information put out from forums such as this and others. I noticed the LFS that contain Discus, they're normally mixed in with Angelfish and other tank mates such as SAE's and Cardinal Tetras.

Some of the Discus are in pairs, while others are by themselves. I've read that breeding pairs can normally do well together with just two, but what are the odds of getting a breeding pair? I noticed that confirmed breeding pairs sell for much more as opposed to just rolling the dice on your Discus and getting what you can.

For the Discus that are mixed with just another Discus and can't confirm if they are breeding pair, what is the normal reaction given to each other?

http://s3-media1.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/3JdTQ735gbq2Gs9dQrDYOA/l.jpg

http://s3-media1.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/4rM1DytD_5xow_nWqnJs8Q/l.jpg

http://s3-media4.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/UipwN3Lx6j6Arhh2vAjVTg/l.jpg

http://s3-media1.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/TchVPGf0Il8g0jJYBCq0VQ/l.jpg

http://s3-media3.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/gMLxx3gvmmaKu-8bLug4SA/l.jpg

I'm no expert, but what are your thoughts on their setup?

[John_Nicholson]

If your goal is to keep the fish alive for less than 90 days( which will be the goal of your LFS, hell they want them sold in less tham 14 days if possible ) than do anything you want. If your goal is to have nice healthy fish that live for 10 years then you have to do everything right. You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

-john

[Skip]

Well I thank you for the responses, I'm not going to say I'm not tempted about getting a Discus, they're a beautiful fish and the more I see pictures and video of them, the more I want to give them a try.

The general perception that I've gotten out of this fish is that they're super high maintenance that require the following:

- minimum 55 gallon aquarium
- minimum 5-6 tank mates
- Perfect crystal clear R/O | D/O water
- PH 6.5/7.0
- Soft water
- 80/85 degree water temperature
- Daily to weekly water changes with 0 ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, etc.

I've given these fish a lot of thought but so far refrained from giving them a try due to the requirements and information put out from forums such as this and others.


I think you need to do more research.. if these are the water parameters needed for discus. . You don't need that ro.. ph.. soft stuff.. tap water is easier and cheaper

[Elliots]

You do not need crystal clear water but it is nice to have.
You do not need pH 6.5/7.0, you need constant pH.
I do not really know if you need soft water, that may be more critical in breeding Discus and raising fry. I do not know because I am not doing either.
The frequency of water changes should be way more than weekly but it can be decreased if you have adults. (Buy adults!) At least change water several times a week.
If your tank is cycled you should have 0 ammonia or very close to 0.
The photos you show of Discus do not look large enough or old enough to breed but you can never be sure of that.

[strawberryblonde]

The discus in the pictures you posted are fine examples of what not to buy!

You have one photo of a group of tanks. On the right there are two very peppered pigeon bloods. They won't outgrow the peppering, it will get more pronounced as they get older. The other two discus in that tank are football shaped, which also won't get better with age. All four look to be stunted. The least stunted would be the pigeon blood on the right with all the peppering.

The middle tank has one VERY dark discus...which means that it's most likely quite sick. That also explains why there's not as many in that tank. I'd bet that any others have already kicked the bucket. And then there's the single discus on the left end of the tanks. He's very hard to see even when I resized the pic on my pc, but looks very young, football shaped and not well.

Part of the problem I see with those tanks is that they have a thick layer of gravel, which hides all the poop (they don't want customers to see the poop and uneaten food) and all that poop and food just breeds bad bacteria and pathogens. Each time new discus go into those tanks they encounter all the nasty stuff left behind by the last batch...very unsanitary and not good for discus who are sensitive fish!

The other problem is that they are all on the same water system (pipe and valve in top right of tank photo). This means that whatever illnesses one discus has is moved along to all the other tanks in the system. So you stand a good chance of bringing home discus that look healthy, only to have them get sick in the first couple of weeks in your tank.

If you're going to purchase discus, it's much better to take a look at the sponsor section of this forum and then to pm or email a sponsor once you find some discus strains that you like. The sponsor can help you choose the right size and strains for your particular tank. (For instance, you wouldn't want to raise a pigeon blood in a planted tank because it will show more peppering).

Others have mentioned the pH requirements for domestic discus, so I won't go overboard here, but they are giving you good advice. You do NOT need RO water for discus. Just aged tap water will be fine and temps should be between 82-84F for the average tank.

[dirtyplants]

Perhaps we are being a little hard on this person. My question is are you all saying 30 gallons is two small for one discus, or does the one discus per gallon still apply or does the latter indicate exceptions to the rule?
Truly when I first tried discus they were wild. There was little info out there at keeping as a hobby, and a lot of people trying their hands at breeding them. I was one and getting two wilds back then was considered OK. You had to turn to people like Wattley and others for advice. You did your best with little info. You tried different methods and you experimented.
Today most of the discus are tank raised with BBs. That to me is much like being in a glass zoo, but those fry are used to it, and would probably be stressed out in any other situation. The reasons for raising discus in BB, with 50% water change daily should be understood for it gives the easiest the quickest and satisfying results. It is not the only way to do things however. If you do choose to go out of the box, then you should have the knowledge, the patience, the work ethics, and the wisdom to call for help when needed. That being said, these people, in forum land, are usually experienced and have had their share of experimentation, successes, and failures. So you can gain from their wins and their loses. Many hands on-ers need to learn from personal experience. We are all fortunate to have such a forum, along with the access to experienced keepers, sometimes opinionated, sometimes generous, but most of the time are willing to aid in our personal knowledge and successes with Discus.
LFS think in a temporary time frame.
They hope not to keep the fish for a long time.
My question to you is do you think your fish is a living creature or an ornament? If you care about the fish's well being then you are going to be on this forum, asking the whys and the hows. Perhaps then taking that knowledge and applying it to your needs and expectations. You may well push the envelope, do your own thing, then if something goes wrong you have the knowledge and wisdom from the forum to fall back on.
You might after keeping one for a while want to keep more.

I for one have no problems with keeping one discus as apposed to ten discus. I figure if you can kill one discus just as easily as you can kill ten. I prefer it be one then ten. :block:

[a volar]

Truth is that OP questions have been answered many times in this thread...... My recommendation will be READ and READ all you can in this forum, good luck!

[dirtyplants]

Ditto

[jmf3460]

I agree about the quality of the discus from this store. Typical LFS quality discus fish. But their planted tanks are beautiful! I give them credit for that!

[strawberryblonde]

Perhaps we are being a little hard on this person. My question is are you all saying 30 gallons is two small for one discus, or does the one discus per gallon still apply or does the latter indicate exceptions to the rule?
...


No one is being hard on the OP. We're all giving him the best advice and options we can as well as trying to explain why you might see one discus in a 10g tank in a LFS, or many in a small tank in a LFS. The whole point we're making is that a LFS is only interested in selling them as quickly as possible and they aren't keeping them in optimal conditions for long term survivability.

We also made it clear that you can certainly keep one discus in a 30 gallon tank. Or even in a community tank so long as the other fish are compatible. I'm speaking from experience here. I raised one wild (or F1) discus in a 50 gallon community tank back in the 80's. Temps were too low for discus because I didn't know any better. He was only fed tetra type flake foods for the same reason. He had angel fish and gourami's for companions and ignored all the other fish in the tank. I'm a bit OCD, so even though back then they recommended changing 15% of the water once a month, I changed 80% once a week. I had an undergravel filter as well as an in tank corner filter and a HOB filter...for the same reason... OCD. LOL

My discus grew fairly well and reached about 6" by the end of the second year. He weathered one round of ich quite well. Basically, he was a tough fish and he survived. Was he great looking? I thought so, but I didn't know anyone else with discus so I had nothing to compare him to. Now that I look back at pictures of him I can see that he was a bit stunted and probably would have grown at least another inch or two with proper care and tank conditions.

So I'll refer back to my original post on this thread when I tell you that yes, you can keep one discus in a community tank. Not so sure I'd want to try it in a 30g, because it would end up overcrowded if you added in angels or some other fairly large, placid fish to be companions for the discus. 50g is about the minimum for safety and best water conditions (the smaller the tank, the larger the room for error when it comes to water quality).

And having said all that, would I ever do it again? Nope! Now that I understand discus a bit better and have two tanks full of them I see the huge difference in behavior of these discus compared to my lone discus.

You also mentioned that today most discus are raised in BB tanks and that you think it's like being in a glass zoo. Maybe you missed the whole point of the BB tank? You ONLY raise them in the BB. Once they reach large sub-adults, you move them to a main tank that's decorated and has substrate... or you add decor and substrate to the grow out tank. Personally, I like adding a potted plant or piece of driftwood to my grow out tanks right from the start and then a thin layer of sand once they reach 5". You absolutely can raise from juvies in a planted tank, or a tank with just sand and driftwood, etc. The downside is that the water changes HAVE to be daily and very stringent cleaning of the substrate and plants has to be done because of that margin for error in water quality. If food gets lodged in the plants, it rots, water quality goes down and juvies are super sensitive to that. So you end up trading off having plants for spending an extra hour carefully siphoning out all the detritus. Been there, did that, switched to BB to grow them out and breathed a sigh of relief.

[Madaboutdiscus]

Well said Toni.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[Rudustin]

I have crystal clear water and have been away for a week with no water changes in my tanks and my discus being fed by my housekeeper that doesn't know a Discus from a shark! I water change when I can and I have gorgeous discus who are healthy and happy and eating and pooping like mad! If you read this forum you can get very intimidated by the various threads because some people are simply addicted to their Discus and want to give them the optimal care. It is for most a hobby and just like tennis, golf or any other hobby people have time to devote more or less time to that hobby and in some cases people are breeding discus. There are so many levels of "optimal care" depending on time, size of the fish and how large or small the tank is. As everyone before me has said if you want to raise one discus in any tank then do it! Maybe you can make that particular fish very happy! We all could be proved wrong by thinking that Discus need to be in groups. Our experience is that many of us love Discus so much that we try to stuff as many into one space as we can while still keeping the parameters of the housing, feeding and water quality to support that many fish. If you do buy just one I hope you will send us pics of that Discus and progress check pics so we can see how wrong most of us might be. On the other hand since so many people have given you a similar opinion we'd like to see the progress pics good or bad because perhaps you may be more right than us wrong.

[John_Nicholson]

LOL. I have heard this exact song and dance many, many times. Some of the time I have had the opportunity to stop by and see these "gorgeous discus" Most are small and would rate about a 4 on a 1 to 10 scale. Nothing wrong with that it that is what the owner wants but I like so many others want really nice and large discus. That rarely happens with subpar care.

-john


I have crystal clear water and have been away for a week with no water changes in my tanks and my discus being fed by my housekeeper that doesn't know a Discus from a shark! I water change when I can and I have gorgeous discus who are healthy and happy and eating and pooping like mad! If you read this forum you can get very intimidated by the various threads because some people are simply addicted to their Discus and want to give them the optimal care. It is for most a hobby and just like tennis, golf or any other hobby people have time to devote more or less time to that hobby and in some cases people are breeding discus. There are so many levels of "optimal care" depending on time, size of the fish and how large or small the tank is. As everyone before me has said if you want to raise one discus in any tank then do it! Maybe you can make that particular fish very happy! We all could be proved wrong by thinking that Discus need to be in groups. Our experience is that many of us love Discus so much that we try to stuff as many into one space as we can while still keeping the parameters of the housing, feeding and water quality to support that many fish. If you do buy just one I hope you will send us pics of that Discus and progress check pics so we can see how wrong most of us might be. On the other hand since so many people have given you a similar opinion we'd like to see the progress pics good or bad because perhaps you may be more right than us wrong.

[myofibroblast]

LOL. I have heard this exact song and dance many, many times. Some of the time I have had the opportunity to stop by and see these "gorgeous discus" Most are small and would rate about a 4 on a 1 to 10 scale. Nothing wrong with that it that is what the owner wants but I like so many others want really nice and large discus. That rarely happens with subpar care.

-john

What is a "4" to you may be a "10" to the original poster. The fish itself is most likely not aware of its hotness. What many experts here are advocating is that each hobbyist has his or her own goals. It may be more helpful to for the hobbyist to identify those goals, and then seek advice accordingly.

Giving advice with the a priori assumption that every hobbyist is interested in breeding or 12-inch mega discus fish with eye-to-head proportion of X and roundness of Y is not helpful, and sometimes even detrimental to the general hobbyist, especially those who are new to the hobby such as "Aqualogic" and myself.

Re: Aqualogic's petshop pictures...do you know the plant in that cubical tank that looks like a lily? I just ordered a 125 tall acrylic from petsmart and I'm in the planning phase for that tank. I read a wonderful article last year in Nat Geo on exporting discus as a sustainable local economy for communities along Lake Ayapua. Apparently the folks gather araca twigs from bushes around the lake perimeter, and place them in thick patches on the bottom of the lake. The discus must be instinctively drawn to them because they "colonize" these patches that probably provide hiding places! I'm not a biotope fanatic, so plants with similar functionality to the araca twigs and leaves will be good enough, and that lily looking plant seems like an awesome substitute!

[aqualogic]

Yes, somewhat intimidating, but then again, I hear similar responses when people ask if a betta will survive in a 2.5 gallon tank. This of course coming from someone who just bought their betta in a cup from Wal-Mart of all places. In my opinion, they're both beautiful fish and all fish should get the best optimal care.

I get where everyone is coming from though, you got mad love for your Discus, this is the equivalent of someone asking if a french poodle will be an ok dog breed to have in an apartment, we're not talking about a chihuaha here. The short answer being yes and no.

P.S. BroBlast

I will call the LFS in question and ask them what plant that is, I will also inquire how they're maintaning their discus in such regards and get to the bottom of this from an LFS perspective

[John_Nicholson]

I hear what you are saying. I just like for anyone that drops by and reads this 6 months from now to understand how this works. If someone only sees low quality fish then they will have no clue what a really nice discus looks like. The best example that I can quote is when Skip came to the NADA show in Atlanta. After looking at the tanks for 2 days he looked at me and said that he was going to go home and kill all of his fish because now he knew what a nice discus was really suppose to look like. I have had lots of people about the great fish that they have grown in their planted tanks...then they stop buy here to buy fish from me and it changes their world. Not trying to brag about my fish. I am bragging about the way that the fish were raised. The raod map is there and it is clear. Any hobbyist here can raise fish that can win at NADA but they can't do it trying to raise them with marginal care. Now I am not judging anyone. They can raise their fish anyway they want, I really don't care about that. I only care for the new people that read this in the future. As long as everyone realizes how different methods lead to different results I am good.

-john


What is a "4" to you may be a "10" to the original poster. The fish itself is most likely not aware of its hotness. What many experts here are advocating is that each hobbyist has his or her own goals. It may be more helpful to for the hobbyist to identify those goals, and then seek advice accordingly.

Giving advice with the a priori assumption that every hobbyist is interested in breeding or 12-inch mega discus fish with eye-to-head proportion of X and roundness of Y is not helpful, and sometimes even detrimental to the general hobbyist, especially those who are new to the hobby such as "Aqualogic" and myself.

Re: Aqualogic's petshop pictures...do you know the plant in that cubical tank that looks like a lily? I just ordered a 125 tall acrylic from petsmart and I'm in the planning phase for that tank. I read a wonderful article last year in Nat Geo on exporting discus as a sustainable local economy for communities along Lake Ayapua. Apparently the folks gather araca twigs from bushes around the lake perimeter, and place them in thick patches on the bottom of the lake. The discus must be instinctively drawn to them because they "colonize" these patches that probably provide hiding places! I'm not a biotope fanatic, so plants with similar functionality to the araca twigs and leaves will be good enough, and that lily looking plant seems like an awesome substitute!

[myofibroblast]

The discus in the pictures you posted are fine examples of what not to buy!

You have one photo of a group of tanks. On the right there are two very peppered pigeon bloods. They won't outgrow the peppering, it will get more pronounced as they get older. The other two discus in that tank are football shaped, which also won't get better with age. All four look to be stunted. The least stunted would be the pigeon blood on the right with all the peppering.

These discuses did not know they were un-pretty until they came to an online forum. haha. Eye of the beholder, as always. These LFS fish cannot compete with the Hollywood standards for sure.

[Skip]

These discuses did not know they were un-pretty until they came to an online forum. haha. Eye of the beholder, as always. These LFS fish cannot compete with the Hollywood standards for sure.

But u want to be educated in what u buy sob you don't get ripped off..

Some very crappy small discus are sold at lfs for what you could pay for adult fish a sponsor here..

But then again.. p t barnum had a saying. .....

[myofibroblast]

I hear what you are saying. I just like for anyone that drops by and reads this 6 months from now to understand how this works. If someone only sees low quality fish then they will have no clue what a really nice discus looks like. The best example that I can quote is when Skip came to the NADA show in Atlanta. After looking at the tanks for 2 days he looked at me and said that he was going to go home and kill all of his fish because now he knew what a nice discus was really suppose to look like. -john

I hope he didn't really kill all his fish!

Youtube has a collection of videos from Asian and European shows. A lot of times people can decide for themselves whether that's their goal, or something else entirely. Thanks for your advice, I do enjoy reading them and others' too.

[Chicago Discus]

Hello to the both of you and welcome to Simply Discus, Although it may seem that some of us are bit intimidating we mean well and are just sharing our own experiences in this hobby. To answer the original question IMO you need to look at it at a business point of view. Its like going to a pound to get a dog or cat they live in very small runs and cages and everyone knows that keeping them in those conditions are not optimal for the health and well being of the animal. But the same goes with the pet store that has many different kinds of animals to display and entice people to purchase the animals so they are not always kept in ideal conditions. Now maybe your goal is to have one discus in a small planted tank with other tank mates of different species and thats ok its your choice they are your fish. But if you ask for my opinion I will tell you that keeping one discus in a small planted tank with other tank-mates is not the ideal conditions for the fish. What ever you decide to do just enjoy the hobby and have fun thats what all this is about.....Josie

[dirtyplants]

Strawberry please re read my statement. I did say their was a very good reason for BB tanks. I myself grow out my little guys until about 4 to 4 1/2 inches in a BB tank. Even though I do the BB grow out, I still feel like I am placing them in a zoo. I personally like engaging eco scapes. My personal preference only. I do feel strongly that people who care about their discus will engage in educating them selves by talking to someone like you. Reading and participating in forums like this. If someone is bent on listening to one individual like the LFS, then so be it. As I said it is just as easy to kill one fish as it is to kill ten. Meaning the LFS will reap the benefits of that person coming back after the fish is dead and will sell him/her another discus. If someone is unwilling to listen to the advice given then the experience may turn out poorly. On the other hand I can't make someone beleive one person over another. So I figure this person needs to learn on his or her personality. The results may not be what is considered a award winning discus, but maybe this person doesn't care about it. You got to give them that. They have to learn for themselves, even though it would greatly benefit anyone to address people in this forum and balance out opinions.

[Keith Perkins]

I hear what you are saying. I just like for anyone that drops by and reads this 6 months from now to understand how this works. If someone only sees low quality fish then they will have no clue what a really nice discus looks like. The best example that I can quote is when Skip came to the NADA show in Atlanta. After looking at the tanks for 2 days he looked at me and said that he was going to go home and kill all of his fish because now he knew what a nice discus was really suppose to look like. I have had lots of people about the great fish that they have grown in their planted tanks...then they stop buy here to buy fish from me and it changes their world. Not trying to brag about my fish. I am bragging about the way that the fish were raised. The road map is there and it is clear. Any hobbyist here can raise fish that can win at NADA but they can't do it trying to raise them with marginal care. Now I am not judging anyone. They can raise their fish anyway they want, I really don't care about that. I only care for the new people that read this in the future. As long as everyone realizes how different methods lead to different results I am good.

-john

This may be my new favorite post of yours John, well said.

[Skip]

I hope he didn't really kill all his fish!

Youtube has a collection of videos from Asian and European shows. A lot of times people can decide for themselves whether that's their goal, or something else entirely. Thanks for your advice, I do enjoy reading them and others' too.

Lets just say. I tried to flush them.. but the kept fighting.. after 4th flush.. i put them back in tank... I was disappointed at the quality I had.. it changed me to see those nada show fish..

[myofibroblast]

But u want to be educated in what u buy sob you don't get ripped off..

But then again.. p t barnum had a saying. .....

That "the public is wiser than many imagine"? :-)

[myofibroblast]

Lets just say. I tried to flush them.. but the kept fighting.. after 4th flush.. i put them back in tank... I was disappointed at the quality I had.. it changed me to see those nada show fish..

That sounds unnecessarily cruel...for any aquarium fish. :-(

[dirtyplants]

Did you say one was called the unsinkable Molly Brown:D

[Tony C]

Lets just say. I tried to flush them.. but the kept fighting.. after 4th flush.. i put them back in tank... I was disappointed at the quality I had.. it changed me to see those nada show fish..

Is this how you discovered the garbage disposal method? :grin:

[strawberryblonde]

These discuses did not know they were un-pretty until they came to an online forum. haha. Eye of the beholder, as always. These LFS fish cannot compete with the Hollywood standards for sure.

I know that you're attempting some levity here, and also trying hard to "balance" the discussion by offering a different opinion than what most are voicing.

Here's what you need to know about those quality discus vs. the "4 on a scale of 1 to 10". Grab a cup of coffee and settle in...LOL

I'm a perfect example of what happens when you take average quality breeder stock and raise those discus in optimal conditions. I started keeping discus in early 2011 because my darned kid gave me a fish tank for Christmas. I knew right away that I wanted a discus in the tank. Yep, A discus...as in ONE discus. Then I thought, maybe 2 will fit in there if I cut back on some other community fish to make space.

So off to the LFS I went to find some discus. I struck out big time. Even to my inexperienced eyes I knew the only ones I could find looked really sick and "off". Next stop was the internet where I thought I could find a good online store to make a purchase. After browsing sites like AquariaCentral and Somethingsfishy I decided to broaden my search and try to find a forum where I could ask which place was best. I found Simply Discus. Before I posted I started reading, because I'm basically very shy and would rather read than ask questions outright.

Sure enough, I learned a LOT that first week by reading all the sections here. Finally I posted and asked my questions. I got great answers and by then I already knew that I knew nothing about raising discus! So I plotted and planned and asked for opinions on my plans. Once that was all set I made my first purchase from a sponsor here. Now don't get me wrong, he has AWESOME discus, but they are not "show" quality discus. He can't give guarantees like that when you're purchasing juveniles or even sub-adults. So I bought the cheapest ones he had in the 4" size (sorry guys, that was my motivator...the price point) and I tossed them into my "lightly planted" pentagonal tank. Just FYI, his cheapest 4" discus were all at least $10 cheaper than the sick looking 3" discus at my LFS.

Ummmm, yeah, so that worked well...NOT! I found myself spending over an hour, twice a day, just trying to get all the bits of leftover beefheart out of the plants. Ditched the ragged plants every day till finally there were only a few left. No point in messy gravel if you have no plants, so out that went and was replaced by sand. Needed something in the middle of the tank, so I added a driftwood stump. FINALLY it was quick and easy to clean and they could eat to their hearts content.

I changed water twice a day. It started as an accident... first a mini-cycle due to the increased bio load of the discus, and then a blown motor in my canister filter that destroyed all my BB. 2 weeks later my new canister blew the motor! Back to square one, but with sponge filters this time, and still doing twice a day water changes.

But, I noticed that my discus had grown far faster than most people here had said they'd grow. After one month they were approaching 5"! After two months they were nearly 6"! At that point they went into my nice new 115g tank with a 55g sump on it. Still fed them at least 6 times a day and changed water every day.... 90% every day.

Did I get show fish quality out of it? Nope! Did I get above average quality discus? YES!! Big, round, fat, juicy discus!

So we're not talking about average people buying or raising "hollywood" discus. We're talking about buying discus from a quality breeder and then raising them properly for the first year of their life so that they reach their full potential.

From a price standpoint, it just makes sense to do that. Why pay MORE for a LFS discus with a questionable lineage, questionable health and then give put all that time and effort into raising it when you can pay less and get great quality? Again, NOT show quality, just great quality.

It's not about the eye of the beholder...but if you feel like you want to raise sub standard discus from a LFS, go for it. It'll be twice the work to get half the results, but its your money. LOL

[aqualogic]

How do you explain these beauties? :)

http://s3-media1.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/J1FtqMC775r-gHDMSXFjfg/l.jpg

The same LFS only kept two Discus (looked like breeders) in this massive 300+ gallon tank, don't know why, but they were the biggest Discus I've ever seen, bigger than my hand, that's for sure.

I wouldn't know the difference between a football shaped "stunted" Discus or whatever all that stuff is, to me all the Discus I've seen are beautiful. I'm constantly looking at Youtube videos and wouldn't know the difference between a pigeon blood or a blue diamond, etc. all that stuff doesn't really matter to me. Kind of reminds me of betta people, always trying to compete their half-moon/crowntail fish and will destroy their fish fry if they don't have good quality, that's just messed up IMO. The things humans do to these poor fish and people worry about the possibility of stunting one discus fish which is probably stunted as it is anyway.

forshameeee

[John_Nicholson]

There is no shame in culling low quality fish.

-john


How do you explain these beauties? :)

http://s3-media1.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/J1FtqMC775r-gHDMSXFjfg/l.jpg

The same LFS only kept two Discus (looked like breeders) in this massive 300+ gallon tank, don't know why, but they were the biggest Discus I've ever seen, bigger than my hand, that's for sure.

I wouldn't know the difference between a football shaped "stunted" Discus or whatever all that stuff is, to me all the Discus I've seen are beautiful. I'm constantly looking at Youtube videos and wouldn't know the difference between a pigeon blood or a blue diamond, etc. all that stuff doesn't really matter to me. Kind of reminds me of betta people, always trying to compete their half-moon/crowntail fish and will destroy their fish fry if they don't have good quality, that's just messed up IMO. The things humans do to these poor fish and people worry about the possibility of stunting one discus fish which is probably stunted as it is anyway.

forshameeee

[Skip]

Oh boy..

[yim11]

Can you post a pic of them please?



How do you explain these beauties? :)

http://s3-media1.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/J1FtqMC775r-gHDMSXFjfg/l.jpg

The same LFS only kept two Discus (looked like breeders) in this massive 300+ gallon tank, don't know why, but they were the biggest Discus I've ever seen, bigger than my hand, that's for sure.

I wouldn't know the difference between a football shaped "stunted" Discus or whatever all that stuff is, to me all the Discus I've seen are beautiful. I'm constantly looking at Youtube videos and wouldn't know the difference between a pigeon blood or a blue diamond, etc. all that stuff doesn't really matter to me. Kind of reminds me of betta people, always trying to compete their half-moon/crowntail fish and will destroy their fish fry if they don't have good quality, that's just messed up IMO. The things humans do to these poor fish and people worry about the possibility of stunting one discus fish which is probably stunted as it is anyway.

forshameeee

[troysdiiscus]

Not the dreeded "CULL" word......lol being a manager at Lowes Home Impovement, I had a saying for those who wanted to get out cheap, "The cheap comes out expensive".. saying that buying from most, not all, LFS with poor quality and poor health, you will spend a ton of money with meds trying to get it to some sort healthy state. Or taking short cuts also will be the same as the fish health disapates. So like every one says there your fish do as you will and wish you much success. The knowledge is here to use or not, its up to you and what you are trying to accomplish. For some of us that have tried and failed and learned the hard way are wanting to give the next person less headaches and more enjoyment for the hobby and sanity...lol ;)

[John_Nicholson]

Thanks.


This may be my new favorite post of yours John, well said.

[strawberryblonde]

How do you explain these beauties? :)

The same LFS only kept two Discus (looked like breeders) in this massive 300+ gallon tank, don't know why, but they were the biggest Discus I've ever seen, bigger than my hand, that's for sure.

I wouldn't know the difference between a football shaped "stunted" Discus or whatever all that stuff is, to me all the Discus I've seen are beautiful. I'm constantly looking at Youtube videos and wouldn't know the difference between a pigeon blood or a blue diamond, etc. all that stuff doesn't really matter to me. Kind of reminds me of betta people, always trying to compete their half-moon/crowntail fish and will destroy their fish fry if they don't have good quality, that's just messed up IMO. The things humans do to these poor fish and people worry about the possibility of stunting one discus fish which is probably stunted as it is anyway.

forshameeee

1) How do I explain those beauties in the pic you posted? I'm not sure any explanation is needed, is there? They look like fairly nicely grown out adult discus in a showcase tank. So what do you actually want explained? Can you be more specific? Do you want an explanation of how they got so big? Why they are in a 300 gallon show tank alone? Why a LFS would bother with a 300g showtank with just two discus in it? Here's some short answers...hopefully one of them is the one you are looking for:
a) How did they get so big? They were properly grown out as juveniles and then were most likely purchased by your LFS to create an enticing display.
b) Why are they in a 300 gallon show tank? You'd have to ask someone at the store whether there were ever more discus in that tank. If you can find an honest person, I'd almost be willing to bet the farm that there used to be a whole school of discus in that tank. So then you'd also have to get that honest person to tell you what happened to the rest of them.
c) What better way to entice people to purchase expensive and overpriced juvenile discus than to show them a dream of what discus can and should look like?

2) Your second paragraph puzzles me. In the beginning you said that you were here to learn how to keep discus and wanted to give them the best possible environment. You admit that you are new and know nothing about discus, not even how to know if they are stunted. I get that! I was new here too 2 1/2 years ago and had tons to learn.
The part that puzzles me is that by the second page of this thread you started becoming contrary, rather than inquisitive and now, by this point in the thread you've done a 180 and no longer want to learn, just want to insist that we humans who care for discus to the best of our abilities are somehow wrong, or cruel, and that you don't care about the quality of life of discus in general. Because that's what you're saying when you say that ALL discus are beautiful and that humans are messed up for even trying to raise them properly.

Sooooo, having said all of that, you'll have to forgive me if I refuse to participate in this discussion any more. There's nothing more I can add that will be helpful. I've already told you to just go buy your single discus and toss him in your 30 gallon tank. You have permission...if that's actually what you were looking for.

[kevin.whisler]

1) How do I explain those beauties in the pic you posted? I'm not sure any explanation is needed, is there? They look like fairly nicely grown out adult discus in a showcase tank. So what do you actually want explained? Can you be more specific? Do you want an explanation of how they got so big? Why they are in a 300 gallon show tank alone? Why a LFS would bother with a 300g showtank with just two discus in it? Here's some short answers...hopefully one of them is the one you are looking for:
a) How did they get so big? They were properly grown out as juveniles and then were most likely purchased by your LFS to create an enticing display.
b) Why are they in a 300 gallon show tank? You'd have to ask someone at the store whether there were ever more discus in that tank. If you can find an honest person, I'd almost be willing to bet the farm that there used to be a whole school of discus in that tank. So then you'd also have to get that honest person to tell you what happened to the rest of them.
c) What better way to entice people to purchase expensive and overpriced juvenile discus than to show them a dream of what discus can and should look like?

2) Your second paragraph puzzles me. In the beginning you said that you were here to learn how to keep discus and wanted to give them the best possible environment. You admit that you are new and know nothing about discus, not even how to know if they are stunted. I get that! I was new here too 2 1/2 years ago and had tons to learn.
The part that puzzles me is that by the second page of this thread you started becoming contrary, rather than inquisitive and now, by this point in the thread you've done a 180 and no longer want to learn, just want to insist that we humans who care for discus to the best of our abilities are somehow wrong, or cruel, and that you don't care about the quality of life of discus in general. Because that's what you're saying when you say that ALL discus are beautiful and that humans are messed up for even trying to raise them properly.

Sooooo, having said all of that, you'll have to forgive me if I refuse to participate in this discussion any more. There's nothing more I can add that will be helpful. I've already told you to just go buy your single discus and toss him in your 30 gallon tank. You have permission...if that's actually what you were looking for.

I am beginning to wonder if NADA stands for "Needlessly Abrasive Discus Aficionados"

[troysdiiscus]

I am beginning to wonder if NADA stands for "Needlessly Abrasive Discus Aficionados"

SMH..................

[Skip]

oh boy :alien:

[locodiscus]

Well said, Toni. This is funny. Why can't we all just get along. I'm starting to suspect that the OP either works at an LFS or has been spending too much time at his. I got the same negative vibe from my LFS when I started talking to them about fishless cycles, bare bottom tanks, daily water changes and pool filter sand. They looked at me like I was crazy. The LFS pics in this thread aren't even close to quality you would get from Hans, Kenny or Josie. Doesn't take an aficionado to see that.

[discuspaul]

Your final paragraph just above, Toni, precisely describes my sentiments as well, and the reason you gave is the very reason I left this discussion some time ago.
You can lead a horse to water, but....

[Madaboutdiscus]

We have a lfs here that posts pics of their fish, mostly cichlids, on facebook. When the posted some discus one day everyone went gaga over their beauty how to care for them etc. And they were beautiful. Someone commented asking how best to care for them. I just made a helpful comment about wcs and food etc. Well I bout got my head removed. They were so livid about me even mentioning to wc every day. Stating their discus only get wcs once/month like all the rest of these tanks. When I asked how many discus they had and how long theyd been rasing them I was rudely snubbed and removed from the page. If that tells y ou anything about lfs. They didnt even want to talk about it.

-Victoria

[nc0gnet0]

I am beginning to wonder if NADA stands for "Needlessly Abrasive Discus Aficionados"


It's far from needless.......trust me on this..


-Rick

[John_Nicholson]

I am beginning to wonder if NADA stands for "Needlessly Abrasive Discus Aficionados"


LOL......

But I do agree with Rick. I am sure there is a small but vocal percentage that get mad at us but there is a hell of a lot of highly successful hobbyist that understand what we are saying....

-john

[Keith Perkins]

LOL...But what percentage John get mad at you and aren't vocal?

[John_Nicholson]

But what percentage John get mad at you and aren't vocal? LOL

Don't know....LOL. While some people do get what I consider a wrong impression of me at times I think most people that hang around for a while realize I am a nice guy, just really passionate about a few things. All in all I do everything that I can to help new people become successful. I just can't stand the ones that have never had any real success but they still want to argue......LOL.

-john

[Gorf]

It makes me MAD!

http://www.screeninsults.com/images/monty-python-mungo-cook.jpg

[myofibroblast]

Yikes, so much confrontation. It just shows how many people here are passionate about their hobby, hopefully no one feels insulted or slighted in anyway! :)

[discuspaul]

Yes, the confrontation is unfortunate.......nonetheless:

What is quite upsetting is that there are many experienced discus hobbyists on this forum who do their level best to point discus novices in the right directions so they can avoid frustration, disappointment, and even outright failure, who are all too often taken for fools and viewed as not knowing, or not having had the experience of what they're talking about, either that, or who are considered by some as being arrogant nay-sayers who make a point of being overly negative and obsessively unyielding in their views on how to proceed to successfully keep discus.

It might be a better world if only more of those who initially disregarded the good advices of these members and got burned in the process would come forward and freely admit they were wrong and seriously suffered for it, then the forum could gather them together and make a very convincing sticky of these unsuccessful strayings from the wisdom words of experience, and to which all the argumentative newcomers could be referred for some good reading.

[Skip]

Yikes, so much confrontation. It just shows how many people here are passionate about their hobby, hopefully no one feels insulted or slighted in anyway! :)

This is like g rated stuff.

[Len]

Yes, the confrontation is unfortunate.......nonetheless:

What is quite upsetting is that there are many experienced discus hobbyists on this forum who do their level best to point discus novices in the right directions so they can avoid frustration, disappointment, and even outright failure, who are all too often taken for fools and viewed as not knowing, or not having had the experience of what they're talking about, either that, or who are considered by some as being arrogant nay-sayers who make a point of being overly negative and obsessively unyielding in their views on how to proceed to successfully keep discus.

It might be a better world if only more of those who initially disregarded the good advices of these members and got burned in the process would come forward and freely admit they were wrong and seriously suffered for it, then the forum could gather them together and make a very convincing sticky of these unsuccessful strayings from the wisdom words of experience, and to which all the argumentative newcomers could be referred for some good reading.

Yes, the confrontational approach is unfortunate, though I think the word abrasive was a better choice. To your point, yes it does get frustrating when you try to give sound advice to someone who admittedly has no experience and they seem to want to debate it. The other side of that though is that maybe they are just trying to determine for themselves if the advice is actually sound or if it may just be the view of someone who is overzealous in their approach. The OP asked questions and received some very sound answers, some of them even polite and it is up to them to decide, but if the fact that they keep asking the questions upsets you, the simply stop responding -- why allow yourself to become agitated? Hauling out the soap box and giving a harsh throne speech in front of a cheering audience isn't going to make you any more credible or authoritative in that person's mind. It also isn't sending an inviting feeling toward other new members who may just be lurking and unsure if they dare post.


In terms of what quality is though, I get the impression that the OP truly believed that the two fish posted in the photo were good. I'd suggest comparing to photos of fish from some of our sponsors (Hans, Kenny, Josie) to get a better idea of what to look for. There are other sponsors here as well that have great fish, those are just the ones foremost in my mind so no slight intended to anyone else.

[yim11]

You have to take into consideration the closed mindedness of many of the new folks on the forum recently in addition to wanting to make sure folks dont read threads like this and think sick lfs stock is the way to go.

[a volar]

Yes, the confrontation is unfortunate.......nonetheless:

What is quite upsetting is that there are many experienced discus hobbyists on this forum who do their level best to point discus novices in the right directions so they can avoid frustration, disappointment, and even outright failure, who are all too often taken for fools and viewed as not knowing, or not having had the experience of what they're talking about, either that, or who are considered by some as being arrogant nay-sayers who make a point of being overly negative and obsessively unyielding in their views on how to proceed to successfully keep discus.

It might be a better world if only more of those who initially disregarded the good advices of these members and got burned in the process would come forward and freely admit they were wrong and seriously suffered for it, then the forum could gather them together and make a very convincing sticky of these unsuccessful strayings from the wisdom words of experience, and to which all the argumentative newcomers could be referred for some good reading.

Agree Paul.... There are tons of threads already here in the forum; people just need to use the search function

[Frankr409]

Yes, the confrontational approach is unfortunate, though I think the word abrasive was a better choice. To your point, yes it does get frustrating when you try to give sound advice to someone who admittedly has no experience and they seem to want to debate it. The other side of that though is that maybe they are just trying to determine for themselves if the advice is actually sound or if it may just be the view of someone who is overzealous in their approach. The OP asked questions and received some very sound answers, some of them even polite and it is up to them to decide, but if the fact that they keep asking the questions upsets you, the simply stop responding -- why allow yourself to become agitated? Hauling out the soap box and giving a harsh throne speech in front of a cheering audience isn't going to make you any more credible or authoritative in that person's mind. It also isn't sending an inviting feeling toward other new members who may just be lurking and unsure if they dare post.


In terms of what quality is though, I get the impression that the OP truly believed that the two fish posted in the photo were good. I'd suggest comparing to photos of fish from some of our sponsors (Hans, Kenny, Josie) to get a better idea of what to look for. There are other sponsors here as well that have great fish, those are just the ones foremost in my mind so no slight intended to anyone else.
Maybe this thread has run its course. Just a thought.

[aqualogic]

What I've gathered so far is that LFS are generally the devil and are only in it for the money, which is technically true, they have a business to run afterall. I realize that different people have different opinions about what Discus need and don't need. i.e. perfect R/O D/O water, 6.5PH, etc.

What I couldn't figure out is if all Discus fish are created equal. Despite what everyone is saying, Discus can "technically" live solo, but shouldn't be kept solo to avoid stunting the fish. In order to maximize the beauty of a specific Discus fish, Discus should be kept in groups of 5 or more with 55 gallons being the minimum, similar to their natural habitat. Reputable breeders are the best option for a quality species, as is the case with just about any domesticated animal.

The vibe that I'm getting from all this is Discus are held to a higher standard not only for their beauty, but the overall quality and maintenance that goes into raising the biggest roundest Discus out there. The bigger, rounder, and higher the quality, the more maintenance that goes into raising such Discus, the more reputable the owner comes off as and the more likely people will buy Discus from said person.

It almost comes off like I'm asking about dog breeds here. Some people will shed negative light on puppy mills to try to force this whole "purebred championship pedigree" lineage down on you. Adopting a mutt is a big no-no and will break this great lineage of animal if you get one and you will have a 99.9% of getting a diseased animal unless you buy from a breeder.

I once asked if I could keep cardinal tetras with 7.0PH, and the answers I got were no, they will die, they need a PH of 3.5/5.5. I bought them anyway from a LFS and they're doing just fine, some are almost 2" now. So excuse me if it seems like I'm taking everything with a grain of salt, I was only asking if the LFS in question were doing anything wrong. Some people are acting like they're the devil and have the ugliest Discus they've ever seen and don't live up to their standards and need to be destroyed before society gets to them.

Don't know what else to add other than to the nice gentleman who asked about the plant. It's called a Green Tiger Lotus:

http://www.rfitropicalfish.com/images/products/green_tiger_lotus.jpg

[Len]

Aqualogic, I think you took the wrong message away. I'm also not so sure I would equate the LFS with the devil. Not all LFS are created equal and there are some that are reputable. You are correct though -- it is a business transaction fist and foremost. The goal is to move as many fish as quickly as possible. Beyond that there isn't necessarily malice intended, but just as often just s sheer lack of knowledge of the fish they are selling. Dealing with a breeder or even a reseller who gets fish directly from a breeder and also has the knowledge and care to keep the fish in top quality until they are sold gives you a better chance at success. Beyond that it is up to you to put best practices in place to ensure your own success. Keeping the fish in the best conditions, environment and yes even numbers are all the best path to achieving that goal. we were all in your shoes at some point, not knowing what advice we should follow and like you say took it with a grain of salt. Read through the forum and you shuld get a feel for whose advice you should follow. if it's easier, pick someone who appears to be successful, based on experience and proof offered and try to understand what made them successful. Once you have a feel for what is working, you can tweak things a bit to what best suits your needs, but try to learn the basics first. Hope that helps some.

[myofibroblast]

Don't know what else to add other than to the nice gentleman who asked about the plant. It's called a Green Tiger Lotus:

http://www.rfitropicalfish.com/images/products/green_tiger_lotus.jpg

Thanks for the info Aqualogic! Good luck with your adventure! Whether you're wildly successful with your soon-to-be discus or not (hopefully the former), keep us updated! Would love to read about your experience. The Green Tiger Lotus is gorgeous!

[Tazalanche]

It might be a better world if only more of those who initially disregarded the good advices of these members and got burned in the process would come forward and freely admit they were wrong and seriously suffered for it, then the forum could gather them together and make a very convincing sticky of these unsuccessful strayings from the wisdom words of experience, and to which all the argumentative newcomers could be referred for some good reading.I tried starting a thread similar to that in August.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?108181-Buying-discus-from-LFS-versus-using-Simply-Sponsors-Member-Experiences

[Keith Perkins]

Yes, the confrontation is unfortunate.......nonetheless:

What is quite upsetting is that there are many experienced discus hobbyists on this forum who do their level best to point discus novices in the right directions so they can avoid frustration, disappointment, and even outright failure, who are all too often taken for fools and viewed as not knowing, or not having had the experience of what they're talking about, either that, or who are considered by some as being arrogant nay-sayers who make a point of being overly negative and obsessively unyielding in their views on how to proceed to successfully keep discus.

It might be a better world if only more of those who initially disregarded the good advices of these members and got burned in the process would come forward and freely admit they were wrong and seriously suffered for it, then the forum could gather them together and make a very convincing sticky of these unsuccessful strayings from the wisdom words of experience, and to which all the argumentative newcomers could be referred for some good reading.


Yes, the confrontational approach is unfortunate, though I think the word abrasive was a better choice. To your point, yes it does get frustrating when you try to give sound advice to someone who admittedly has no experience and they seem to want to debate it. The other side of that though is that maybe they are just trying to determine for themselves if the advice is actually sound or if it may just be the view of someone who is overzealous in their approach. The OP asked questions and received some very sound answers, some of them even polite and it is up to them to decide, but if the fact that they keep asking the questions upsets you, the simply stop responding -- why allow yourself to become agitated? Hauling out the soap box and giving a harsh throne speech in front of a cheering audience isn't going to make you any more credible or authoritative in that person's mind. It also isn't sending an inviting feeling toward other new members who may just be lurking and unsure if they dare post.


In terms of what quality is though, I get the impression that the OP truly believed that the two fish posted in the photo were good. I'd suggest comparing to photos of fish from some of our sponsors to get a better idea of what to look for. There are other sponsors here as well that have great fish, those are just the ones foremost in my mind so no slight intended to anyone else.

Extremely well put gentlemen.

[dirtyplants]

I think the best way to have handled this would be to take OPs pictures point out each aspect of why this is not a good discus for the money, then post another picture and show each of the same aspects and why these aspects are good for the money.
LFS sell stock, hire people who know little knowledge or get minimum amount of wages. They do what is necessary to keep the fish alive and healthy for the short interim. Only a special LST sells top quality and promotes each fish with rules to ensure a maximum growth and best of care giving.
My fish are not perfect, for that matter neither am I. OMG if the world just viewed us by our perfectness we would all be in Hollywood. :cheesy:
There are many ways to teach what is good and what is considered bad but honestly I love my little football discus all the same. Sometimes I buy because there is an emotional attachment.This is not aways a bad thing especially if I know what is a good healthy fish.
This can still be done, turn this conversation around, point out the reasons why op's pictures of discus are a poor example, then post a picture of a good looking discus and go over the same points and explain why they are good. You can also direct op to the forum that explains good discus traits if he /she is interested in understanding those traits.
OP yes you will find many people who compete and win awards for their fish, just like the dog shows! Still many people buy from the Humane Society, and find the common just as personal and dynamic as a show dog/fish. It depends on you and your personal likes and dislikes. This is the place to gather and look at opinions understand what works and what has posed problematic, file it away in your brain somewhere and use it when considering to own and purchase discus.
Most of us want our discus to be as healthy as possible, and that also means be all you can be. So getting your discus to an adult size is just ensuring that discus can integrate and live a long healthy life. Most of us want to give our kids the tools needed to succeed and live a happy life.

[tonytheboss1]

What I couldn't figure out is if all Discus fish are created equal.

:bandana: "Technically", no. Some, because of genetics, have a better shot at being superior specimens if optimal care & conditions are met.


The vibe that I'm getting from all this is Discus are held to a higher standard not only for their beauty, but the overall quality and maintenance that goes into raising the biggest roundest Discus out there.

:bandana: Yes they are held to a higher standard. Forget the forums & the amateur hobbyists for a minute. Read some HISTORY from pros like Degen, Axelrod, Wattley, Yamada, Schmidt-Focke, Quarles, Soh, Chan, Mayland, Dawes, Hargreaves, Mori or Stuart . The readings will help to give you some background as to why Discus was back then & still is today "KING OF THE AQUARIUM".


It almost comes off like I'm asking about dog breeds here. Some people will shed negative light on puppy mills to try to force this whole "purebred championship pedigree" lineage down on you. Adopting a mutt is a big no-no and will break this great lineage of animal if you get one and you will have a 99.9% of getting a diseased animal unless you buy from a breeder.

:bandana: We're talking apples & oranges here but ok lets go. There's nothing wrong with owning a mutt. I have one & lover her to pieces. Cost me a small fee/donation to the shelter she came from. I also have a champion sired Staffordshire Terrier that cost me a small fortune & I love him too. Both great dogs in their own way.


I once asked if I could keep cardinal tetras with 7.0PH, and the answers I got were no, they will die, they need a PH of 3.5/5.5.

:bandana: Guess you asked the wrong folks cause they lied to you (sorry misled you) . Sometimes it's difficult to sort out opinion from fact. Quite often the line blurs. Bottom line, the books above will give you history, foundation. The good folks on here will give you a more present day 'tried & true'. Take it ALL in & then do whatever makes YOU happy!! "T"

[discuspaul]

I tried starting a thread similar to that in August.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?108181-Buying-discus-from-LFS-versus-using-Simply-Sponsors-Member-Experiences

Very nice effort, David. I missed seeing that thread at the time.

[kevin.whisler]

The other side of that though is that maybe they are just trying to determine for themselves if the advice is actually sound or if it may just be the view of someone who is overzealous in their approach. The OP asked questions and received some very sound answers, some of them even polite and it is up to them to decide, but if the fact that they keep asking the questions upsets you, the simply stop responding -- why allow yourself to become agitated? Hauling out the soap box and giving a harsh throne speech in front of a cheering audience isn't going to make you any more credible or authoritative in that person's mind. It also isn't sending an inviting feeling toward other new members who may just be lurking and unsure if they dare post.

What he said.

[kevin.whisler]

It's far from needless.......trust me on this..


-Rick

There is a need to be abrasive?

[nc0gnet0]

There is a need to be abrasive?

Only to those that wish to resurect a thread that had run it's course with no other purpose than to continue the bickering.

[kevin.whisler]

Only to those that wish to resurect a thread that had run it's course with no other purpose than to continue the bickering.

Wow.

Unlike some of you, I only come here once or twice a week. Sorry if I am behind on this thread. This is a hobby for me, not an obsession. I have posted only three posts on this thread, my total word count probably being less than two dozen words. And now I am accused of "bickering". I enjoy my discus and I have enjoyed this forum. But I am beginning to believe that I don't belong here. As you can see from my join date and my post count I am very green to this forum. I had hoped to find an informative and supportive community to assist me in my new hobby. This forum has been very helpful to me, but I think I may have reached my personal exposure limit for abrasiveness and condescension. And I strongly suspect that there are many more people who join this forum, read the abrasive posts from senior members and decide that discus are not for them. Most of those people probably go away without ever writing a single post. Frankly I am surprised that forum sponsors do not complain about behavior that is clearly not in their best business interest, as it is clearly not promoting the growth of this hobby. Btw, not that it matters but I bought my fish from a Simply sponsor.

[OC Discus]

Part of the frustration on this forum arises from the fact that many of the senior members are "experts" who know what it takes to raise discus to their full potential, while newbies and general hobbiests are not set up to do the kind of maintenance that is done in a fish room. We have world champion breeders dialoguing with beginners who will never be able to achieve the same standards or results.

I say "thanks" to the experts who dedicate so much time and free advice to this forum. I also say most of us who keep discus will not rise to the level of the experts because we don't have the time, space, and resources, but we can still enjoy the hobby and our fish. We can also learn from the experts, and maybe buy some fish from them. Most local fish stores are not as knowledgeable or committed to the task of raising discus as some of the administrators on the site. We hobbiests should try to understand their frustration- They have seen perfection and they know what it takes. Maybe they can understand our frustration too. We have seen perfection, but we won't quite be able to attain it.

[Tony C]

Wow.

Unlike some of you, I only come here once or twice a week. Sorry if I am behind on this thread. This is a hobby for me, not an obsession. I have posted only three posts on this thread, my total word count probably being less than two dozen words. And now I am accused of "bickering". I enjoy my discus and I have enjoyed this forum. But I am beginning to believe that I don't belong here. As you can see from my join date and my post count I am very green to this forum. I had hoped to find an informative and supportive community to assist me in my new hobby. This forum has been very helpful to me, but I think I may have reached my personal exposure limit for abrasiveness and condescension. And I strongly suspect that there are many more people who join this forum, read the abrasive posts from senior members and decide that discus are not for them. Most of those people probably go away without ever writing a single post. Frankly I am surprised that forum sponsors do not complain about behavior that is clearly not in their best business interest, as it is clearly not promoting the growth of this hobby. Btw, not that it matters but I bought my fish from a Simply sponsor.

You can choose to take it as abrasive and condescending, or you can choose to see it as an expression of the passion and knowledge that experienced people bring to the board and generously share. I have seen this same type of conversation play out on a number of live animal forums, and whether the animals in question are reptiles, amphibians, fish, or insects the basic course of discussion is the same. Newbie asks question, experts give advice, newbie ignores or argues against the advice given, experts get irritated, newbie gets butthurt and does it their way, animals suffer and often die. Newbie then disappears from the hobby and the myth that the animal in question is just too hard to keep lives on.

I have been an active seller on a few herp boards and quite frankly I was happy to see such people run off before they could buy and kill my animals. My business interests were unharmed because there were more people wanting to buy my animals than what I could produce, and I suspect the situation is the same for the sponsors here. In fact, it is probably beneficial to lose those sales so that people aren't complaining how "My fish from XXXXXXXX just died for no reason" and unfairly impacting their reputations.

Just my $0.02, take it as you will.

[aqualogic]

Not like it matters, but I bought my first Discus and I have him in my 30 gallon community fish tank right now. I was going to buy one eventually and was only really inquiring about the livelihood of Discus at your typical LFS. I just wanted to get the real scoop on this supposedly impossible fish to maintain and I found a 3" Discus for $25.00, quite the bargain as I've never seen a Discus going for that much at this length, and a lot more cost-effective as opposed to buying 5-6 adult Discus as $50+ a pop and then having them all die. Did the LFS sell me a lemon? Only time will tell I guess, In my opinion, even though he's my little experiment, and probably won't be winning any NADA competitions anytime soon, I rather enjoy my new Discus.

Some breeders probably would have culled him from the get-go at the slightest sight of peppering, but this specimen is full of character, and I could careless if he doesn't live up to everyones standards, so don't judge me for trying. I never said I was looking to breed or maintain a championship calibre Discus fish. Someone on here said if I wanted a fish or if I wanted an ornament? Judging by the responses I got, I could say the same for most people who claim their fish as trophies. I just wanted to test the waters in hopes of maybe one day having an entire shoal of Discus.

All this research about perfect r/o d/o, 6.5 PH, daily to bi-weekly water changes, fish can't live solo, will get diseased and kill all your fish, unsustainable in planted aquariums, etc. Quite a lot of characteristics to maintain. With all these checkpoints, of course anyone would be intimidated coming here asking otherwise or buying these fish.

Here's what I've learned so far about my specific Discus fish:

1. He eats like a pig, and will only touch meaty foods like bloodworms or freeze dried tubifex worms. Getting them to eat pellets or flake foods is going to be a process, but so long as he's eating and my tank mates don't leave any scraps, all is good and no mess is made, meaning less water changes. (now I understand why people like to use barebottom tanks when they're juvenile)

2. He seems to be ok living in 80 degree water temperature, even though my heater is set to 84 degrees and I have a good water flow in my aquarium, he's not necessarily glued to the heater. He's not shy at all either, he'll eat from my hand and will even swim to the front of the glass knowing when I'm going to feed him. Personality wise, these fish remind me a lot like cats more than fish. Not as timid as people make them out to be and have a personality on them for being a fish.

3. Water doesn't have to be perfect 6.5PH R/O D/O water. My PH is at 7.2 and I'm using Seachem Neutral Regulator to keep it at that level, no need for Discus buffer at all thus far. I haven't seen any discouragement from the Discus, it's only been a week but he doesn't seem to be spazzing out or anything.

4. Out of all my tank mates, he seems to only really have an issue with my kissing gourami come feeding time. These two like fighting for the freeze dried tubifex worms, can't tell if he has a "pecking order" with the gourami, but for reasons unknown, the kissing gourami likes to shoal around the Discus. I found that breaking the tubifex cubes apart and sticking them to different parts of the tank somewhat works. He won't touch the flake foods so my other fish are good on that end.

It's only been a week, so I'm not calling the BS card just yet, like I said, time will tell, so don't go screaming "I told you so" just yet. I'm not trying to tell anyone to believe what I have to say, like I said before. Just take it with a grain of salt.

[Madaboutdiscus]

Not like it matters, but I bought my first Discus and I have him in my 30 gallon community fish tank right now. I was going to buy one eventually and was only really inquiring about the livelihood of Discus at your typical LFS. I just wanted to get the real scoop on this supposedly impossible fish to maintain and I found a 3" Discus for $25.00, quite the bargain as I've never seen a Discus going for that much at this length, and a lot more cost-effective as opposed to buying 5-6 adult Discus as $50+ a pop and then having them all die. Did the LFS sell me a lemon? Only time will tell I guess, In my opinion, even though he's my little experiment, and probably won't be winning any NADA competitions anytime soon, I rather enjoy my new Discus.

Some breeders probably would have culled him from the get-go at the slightest sight of peppering, but this specimen is full of character, and I could careless if he doesn't live up to everyones standards, so don't judge me for trying. I never said I was looking to breed or maintain a championship calibre Discus fish. Someone on here said if I wanted a fish or if I wanted an ornament? Judging by the responses I got, I could say the same for most people who claim their fish as trophies. I just wanted to test the waters in hopes of maybe one day having an entire shoal of Discus.

All this research about perfect r/o d/o, 6.5 PH, daily to bi-weekly water changes, fish can't live solo, will get diseased and kill all your fish, unsustainable in planted aquariums, etc. Quite a lot of characteristics to maintain. With all these checkpoints, of course anyone would be intimidated coming here asking otherwise or buying these fish.

Here's what I've learned so far about my specific Discus fish:

1. He eats like a pig, and will only touch meaty foods like bloodworms or freeze dried tubifex worms. Getting them to eat pellets or flake foods is going to be a process, but so long as he's eating and my tank mates don't leave any scraps, all is good and no mess is made, meaning less water changes. (now I understand why people like to use barebottom tanks when they're juvenile)

2. He seems to be ok living in 80 degree water temperature, even though my heater is set to 84 degrees and I have a good water flow in my aquarium, he's not necessarily glued to the heater. He's not shy at all either, he'll eat from my hand and will even swim to the front of the glass knowing when I'm going to feed him. Personality wise, these fish remind me a lot like cats more than fish. Not as timid as people make them out to be and have a personality on them for being a fish.

3. Water doesn't have to be perfect 6.5PH R/O D/O water. My PH is at 7.2 and I'm using Seachem Neutral Regulator to keep it at that level, no need for Discus buffer at all thus far. I haven't seen any discouragement from the Discus, it's only been a week but he doesn't seem to be spazzing out or anything.

4. Out of all my tank mates, he seems to only really have an issue with my kissing gourami come feeding time. These two like fighting for the freeze dried tubifex worms, can't tell if he has a "pecking order" with the gourami, but for reasons unknown, the kissing gourami likes to shoal around the Discus. I found that breaking the tubifex cubes apart and sticking them to different parts of the tank somewhat works. He won't touch the flake foods so my other fish are good on that end.

It's only been a week, so I'm not calling the BS card just yet, like I said, time will tell, so don't go screaming "I told you so" just yet. I'm not trying to tell anyone to believe what I have to say, like I said before. Just take it with a grain of salt.

It seems to me aqua that you are obviously going to do what you want to do and not follow any advice of any of the experts that have the tried and true methods here. They have obviously tried these things you are trying and have found they dont work. Your fish may be doing well now but eventually youre going to find out what others already know. Do us all a favor and let this post die as it needed to long ago. Let us know how your fish is doing in a month or so raise it as you see fit and well see what happens. Not trying to be rude or hostile just stating a fact. You think youre doing the right thing only time will tell.

-Victoria

[John_Nicholson]

While I was more than ready for this thread to die I have now sort of changed my mind. I would like aqualogic to hang around and about 6 - 9 months from now to bring this thread back to the front with pictures and measurements. I know some people would classify us old timers as jackasses and while we can be stubborn we really do get a bad rap sometimes. I have been told before by someone that they could do a search on me and find all these people that I have argued with....well there is a reason for that. First I have been doing this a long, long time. I have help people much more than I have argued with people and Second most of the time the people that I argue with end up leaving. This is where the problem occurs. Some assume that the leave because they were "treated poorly". In reality they leave because they kill their fish. I would say less than 5% will actually make a post saying you know I tried it my own way and it did not work well. They always show up knowing that they are right, knowing that they might be new but they are just better than the rest of us, they argue with us, we argue with them. They always say how great their fish are doing and I believe them in the short term....but is the goal really to keep the fish alive for 6 weeks? 6 months? or 6 years? The reason people think discus are impossible to keep is that they keep them in poor conditions and the eventually get sick and die. The reason us old timers get judged poorly is because the people that do not take our advise seldom come back later and post their results. They just fade off into the back ground leave their post saying how great their fish are doing and this leads other new people down the same path to failure.

Having said that I hope this fish does well but years and years of experience tells me it probably will not.

Good luck.

-john

[Skip]

people learn by different methods

I lost fish at the beginning because I had an idea that I could just put fish in a tank and let it go.. I was given ideas and ways from people that had discus already..

I didn't listen.. didn't think I needed to cycle a tank.. and that I knew better about how to set up tank.... i killed like 4 fish.. really fast
then I stated to pay attention.. some of my methods did not work .. others have.. :)

its just they way it goes... I did learn, that people that had discus for extended time.. did know a few things and were just trying to keep me from making the same mistakes they did..

thanks to John, Yim11, Randy, TcT, deepflyball, txredneck, Eddie, Liz, Pat, Rod, bob, shinshin, Turq64, Andrew soh, Hans, Beals.. just to rattle off a few names that helped here in SD and in Person..
I was SUPER hard headed at first.. but I did learn ..I think DerekFF told me he wanted to strangle me to get my attention at one point..
.. go ahead check some of my FANTASTIC threads I started in 2010!! LOL>.
I crack up when I read them NOW.. lol

[OC Discus]

My test with a single discus in a community tank was an experiment to see if discus would thrive in my water and tank. After a few weeks the tankmates became much less attractive. My real desire for a discus tank was realized when I ordered a group of juveniles and flushed the rest of my fish. Following advice on the site I simplified the tank set up and have a beautiful group of six discus and 10 cardinals. It is more work than a community tank to keep the juveniles healthy and growing, but it is worth the effort. I doubt mine will make it to the NADA shows, but I like em.

[Skip]

For the record.. those of you that have never been to a NADA show.. you are missing a fantastic event to see what these fish can achieve!!
I only went to Atlanta. . So correct me if wrong... in Atlanta.. all the the domestic fish came asia or germany from the discus farms of some of our discus sponsors... except for a few.. there were over 100!!!

Tara was a hobbyist to bring fish she raised from juvie to adult. And she won 1st place in her division beating out imports .. liz brought some of her blue diamonds from her breeding.. pat.. richT brought some of their wilds..
It is not just judged on size.. there is a score sheet...

so any regular joe can bring a fish and succeed.. I expect more hobbyist to bring fish to Austin and do well.. hope chad will bring his ring leopard pigeon blood.. hope tara brings more.. josie .. hope to see some of her chicago fish.. there will be some great fish either way.. it will be a great show! I expect after Atlanta.. others who were afraid that their fish could not be a show fish.. will bring fish.. I overheard and spoke with others.. and it was a common theme.. "I have fish I could have brought for the show, but was intimidated.."

so OC.. it is VERY possible for you to bring a fish and enter.. it would give you a great way to have your methods judged AND improve yourself as a hobbyist.. :)

ps. Austin is a great town to visit!!

[strawberryblonde]

Part of the frustration on this forum arises from the fact that many of the senior members are "experts" who know what it takes to raise discus to their full potential, while newbies and general hobbiests are not set up to do the kind of maintenance that is done in a fish room. We have world champion breeders dialoguing with beginners who will never be able to achieve the same standards or results.

I say "thanks" to the experts who dedicate so much time and free advice to this forum. I also say most of us who keep discus will not rise to the level of the experts because we don't have the time, space, and resources, but we can still enjoy the hobby and our fish. We can also learn from the experts, and maybe buy some fish from them. Most local fish stores are not as knowledgeable or committed to the task of raising discus as some of the administrators on the site. We hobbiests should try to understand their frustration- They have seen perfection and they know what it takes. Maybe they can understand our frustration too. We have seen perfection, but we won't quite be able to attain it.

Hi OC,

I wanted to add this little bit to what Warlock just said about showing fish at the bi-annual NADA shows. =)

I think some new members who read here get the impression that the experts who give advice here are "looking down their noses" at us general hobbyists. I've found that that's not true at all! There are show fish, there are good quality discus and there are sub-par discus. The show discus is a whole nother thing and I've never met anyone here who expects hobbyists to produce or grow them.

The advice is all geared towards growing out and maintaining good quality discus. And it's not hard to do in just a standard tank! It just requires knowing what to do and when/how often to do it.

None of my discus would win any awards. They were just standard quality, super healthy discus that I bought to grow out. I got fantastic results by following the advice of the experts on this forum and I"m thrilled with my discus...every last one of them. I post pics all the time and get truly nice comments from those same experts, even though the flaws are obvious (a couple are quite beaky, one has some peppering on his nose, another has extended operculum and one is very football shaped).

The whole point of these forums is to help home hobbyists (no fish rooms required) to raise up healthy discus to their full potential. If that full potential includes those beaky faces and some peppering it's just fine and no one will ever critisize you for having them in your tank. (if they do - come tell me and I'll go kick 'em in the knees!)

[OC Discus]

Thanks Toni


Hi OC,

I wanted to add this little bit to what Warlock just said about showing fish at the bi-annual NADA shows. =)

I think some new members who read here get the impression that the experts who give advice here are "looking down their noses" at us general hobbyists. I've found that that's not true at all! There are show fish, there are good quality discus and there are sub-par discus. The show discus is a whole nother thing and I've never met anyone here who expects hobbyists to produce or grow them.

The advice is all geared towards growing out and maintaining good quality discus. And it's not hard to do in just a standard tank! It just requires knowing what to do and when/how often to do it.

None of my discus would win any awards. They were just standard quality, super healthy discus that I bought to grow out. I got fantastic results by following the advice of the experts on this forum and I"m thrilled with my discus...every last one of them. I post pics all the time and get truly nice comments from those same experts, even though the flaws are obvious (a couple are quite beaky, one has some peppering on his nose, another has extended operculum and one is very football shaped).

The whole point of these forums is to help home hobbyists (no fish rooms required) to raise up healthy discus to their full potential. If that full potential includes those beaky faces and some peppering it's just fine and no one will ever critisize you for having them in your tank. (if they do - come tell me and I'll go kick 'em in the knees!)

[dirtyplants]

It sounds to me aqualogic you have bitten the forbidden fruit. It sounds like you care for the fish you have purchased, that being the case read, read, and read, I suspect you will be a great discus keeper down the road, but until then take the advice that is factual and experienced based, allow for the emotional statements to fade away. Forums allow for out spoken, dogmatic, and sometimes cruel statements much of which would never have been expressed the same way if the conversation were person to person. It goes with the territory. Challenging statements of my knowledge and experience can ruffle my feathers also, but I try not to take it too personal. As I get a bit older I realize people's positions and view points are usually based on their personal experience. That can be complicated and convoluted but the type of questions asked and responded to, indicates the experience, or lack of, of the individual. The forum is always open to you, you do not have to engage in these conversations, but you still can gain from the experience of others, by reading. This will only make you more knowledgable and skilled and who would not want those attributes? Also rest assured that if you run into problems the people in this forum, in their own personal ways, will try to help you out in the long term. Just enjoy your fish and keep him healthy and happy.

[BODYDUB]

Everyone on here have learned lessons the hard way, some admit it, some won't, and some still do the wrong. I myself have made mistakes in the past, but have come to learn the "basics" to discus keeping.......There are pretty much three things I have learned for a discus hobbyist to maintain in order to have healthy fish which are: food, clean water and remember that they are schooling fish. There are many, many people out there who currently have discus which are stunted or alone and have no idea about this forum, and to them they are completely happy with their fish. When you post here and members reply they try to give the best advice possible that they can, some people accept it and some don't. But to each his own, beauty is in the eye of the beholder..................On another note, just wow to this thread.

[rai]

Well I thank you for the responses, I'm not going to say I'm not tempted about getting a Discus, they're a beautiful fish and the more I see pictures and video of them, the more I want to give them a try.

The general perception that I've gotten out of this fish is that they're super high maintenance that require the following:

- minimum 55 gallon aquarium
- minimum 5-6 tank mates
- Perfect crystal clear R/O | D/O water
- PH 6.5/7.0
- Soft water
- 80/85 degree water temperature
- Daily to weekly water changes with 0 ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, etc.

I've given these fish a lot of thought but so far refrained from giving them a try due to the requirements and information put out from forums such as this and others. I noticed the LFS that contain Discus, they're normally mixed in with Angelfish and other tank mates such as SAE's and Cardinal Tetras.

Some of the Discus are in pairs, while others are by themselves. I've read that breeding pairs can normally do well together with just two, but what are the odds of getting a breeding pair? I noticed that confirmed breeding pairs sell for much more as opposed to just rolling the dice on your Discus and getting what you can.

For the Discus that are mixed with just another Discus and can't confirm if they are breeding pair, what is the normal reaction given to each other?

http://s3-media1.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/3JdTQ735gbq2Gs9dQrDYOA/l.jpg

http://s3-media1.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/4rM1DytD_5xow_nWqnJs8Q/l.jpg

http://s3-media4.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/UipwN3Lx6j6Arhh2vAjVTg/l.jpg

http://s3-media1.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/TchVPGf0Il8g0jJYBCq0VQ/l.jpg

http://s3-media3.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/gMLxx3gvmmaKu-8bLug4SA/l.jpg

I'm no expert, but what are your thoughts on their setup?


This looks like the place where I usually go. Are you in Long Beach area? Most of their discus looks healthy but some of them are really stressed out. Most of the stressed out ones are the ones that has been there for a while.

[aqualogic]

Yes, same location. I was just there recently and noted that their large discus tank had fresh stock of 6-7" discus, they had pigeon bloods this time around. Have you bought discus from them before?

[Skip]

Yes, same location. I was just there recently and noted that their large discus tank had fresh stock of 6-7" discus, they had pigeon bloods this time around. Have you bought discus from them before?

7". What are they charging. .

[aqualogic]

Those went for $220 I believe. It's the only place in this area that I've seen that sells discus that big.

[Discusdude7]

Yes, same location. I was just there recently and noted that their large discus tank had fresh stock of 6-7" discus, they had pigeon bloods this time around. Have you bought discus from them before?

Are you sure they are 6-7 inches? Sometimes you think you have a 6 inch fish and after measuring it,you find out its only 5 inches...

[Skip]

Yep.. what he said

[aqualogic]

I called them earlier and asked them if they had any of their large discus left. They said they had a Cobalt Blue Discus for $230, when I asked them if it was in the 6-7" range, they said it was more in the 7-8" range. They refer to the big discus as "show sized"

[Chicago Discus]

Well these are 5" Piwowarski Cobalts in a few months they will be much larger and are much cheaper...>.Josie



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7ZZmeeYITg

[OC Discus]

Dumb question: What is Piwowarski?


Well these are 5" Piwowarski Cobalts in a few months they will be much larger and are much cheaper...>.Josie



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7ZZmeeYITg

[OC Discus]

Nice lookin fish!


Dumb question: What is Piwowarski?

[Discusdude7]

Dumb question: What is Piwowarski?

The breeder of the fish is Alex piwowarski..

[OC Discus]

Thanks.


The breeder of the fish is Alex piwowarski..

[discuspaul]

And Piwowarski discus are usually great-looking, well-shaped, and superior quality discus.

[White Worm]

I don't know why it is so hard for people to understand discus care. You drop a group of discus in the proper sized cycled tank and you change the water. Sheesh, how hard is that? I've bought from lfs's, killed many discus, screwed up doing it "My Way" and I'm kinda glad the first batches died because that is when I researched and found Simply and then met Kenny. Do I need to say more? Years of being on this forum, I've seen many disappear but there are still a few experts left. John is one that I have seen do it right and do it consistent for a long time and I just have to get out there soon to visit and maybe pick up some hitch hikers for the 4 50g empty tanks I have. I started the same way all newbies do and there is not another source of information out there more valuable than what we have here for free regarding discus. NADA 2014 here I come! I'll be the first to say that I made all the wrong moves in the beginning but I have NO problem flushing a sick or low quality discus in order to preserve the rest and improve on what I see in my tanks every day.

Josie, beautiful fish! I have been watching your posts lately. Very nice! Great videos!