Pat's Wild Tefe F1 "Batch B"

[Second Hand Pat]

This thread will be a temporary home for me to document the fish I will be using in the Hobbyist Challenge which are the second successful spawn (Batch B) from my wild Tefe's. The female is the same female for Batch A but the male is different and prettier then the Batch A male.

Here are the parents.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/P5090041.jpg

Mom
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/P5090036.jpg

Dad
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/Dad-1.jpg

The brooding tank is my 230 bio-tope tank with a foam divider between the parents and the rest of the Tefe group. The ph is 7.2, TDS is ~40 and temp is still 78F.

Today's video of the wigglers at nine day free swimming. The wigglers are looking more like fish and less like mosquito larvae.

http://youtu.be/xfS8gqRYAMU

[Wildcaught dutchman]

Nice wigglers Pat.Wonder how they look like within 2-3 months.Good luck with them.:D

[Second Hand Pat]

Nice wigglers Pat.Wonder how they look like within 2-3 months.Good luck with them.:D

Marc, something like this

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?96756-Wild-Tefe-F1-Juvies-quot-Batch-A-quot

[Second Hand Pat]

Started introducing BBS yesterday (yea, I know a couple of days late). No takers but the wigglers are starting to show a little independent from the parents. There is one little guy who keeps wondering from the pack and mom always has to come fetch him. Bet one day he will be the alpha male if he survives the forays away from the parents.

[Second Hand Pat]

This video is a bit dark and day 12 for the Batch B Tefe fry. Today if you look below mom you can see of the wigglers hanging a little away from Mom. They are getting a little independent.


http://youtu.be/Pr66Xa00oW4

[Second Hand Pat]

Day 14. Fry started taking BBS tonight.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/Dad_Day_14.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/Dad_Day_14_2.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/Mom_Day_14.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

Two weeks old today and eating BBS like little champs.


http://youtu.be/yac-6ZSgxyg

[ockyra215]

Loking good pat keep up the good work and updates!

[Chicago Discus]

Pat you always are ahead of me ..LOL...LOL...looks great Im jealous..............Josie

[Second Hand Pat]

Loking good pat keep up the good work and updates!

Thank you Dave and well do :)


Pat you always are ahead of me ..LOL...LOL...looks great Im jealous..............Josie

Aw thanks Josie, Your domestic fry with outgrow these little F1 greens so badly. The batch A is 16 weeks old and not even 3 inches :p

[DiscusLoverJeff]

As always Pat, great job!

Very consistant spawing cycle too. Good luck and hope all works out for you.

[Second Hand Pat]

As always Pat, great job!

Very consistant spawing cycle too. Good luck and hope all works out for you.

Thanks Jeff, you would think this female was a domestic she is so regular.

[Second Hand Pat]

Batch B is 18 days old today and starting to gain a little height.


http://youtu.be/aEYO9Ztyafk

[Keith Perkins]

Awesome sight, they look really good foraging about.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Keith, they are getting quite dependent of the parents. I am trying to decide if I should pull them before going to the show.

[Keith Perkins]

Two weeks from now if they were domestics I wouldn't be at all concerned about pulling them.

[Second Hand Pat]

I pulled Batch A at four weeks and these guys will be a bit over four weeks old two weeks from now so sounds like a plan.

[Second Hand Pat]

These fry are 21 days old today. Video is a bit dark.


http://youtu.be/Y-bLlp-IrpA

[Second Hand Pat]

24 days old and the fry are getting some height on and starting to look like little discus. You can see mom and dad do not like the ipad.


http://youtu.be/MYtRvYpZ4-E

[Second Hand Pat]

Here is the video from last night. Little buggers were four weeks old yesterday. They are not dime sized yet and still in with mom and dad in the 230. I plan on leaving them in with mom and dad until after the show in Atlanta as this serves two purposes. It keeps mom from wanting to spawn (hopefully) and makes it easier to care for the fry in the big tank while I am at the show for the caretaker.

The water parameters are still the same, TDS 45-50, Temp 82, Ph 7.2, GH 4dGH, KH 4dKH and still doing two 50% WCs a week. The fry are eating BBS and fined ground FDBWs which were introduced two days ago.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS28IX9hWjI&list=UUaeXQ_wwjMmbU52-KYBqNJg&index=1&feature=plcp

[johnnathan]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Second Hand Pat]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Aw, thank you John, a man of few words ;)

[Wildcaught dutchman]

Hi Pat.Wonderful again.I think you are never without bugglers.You breed so many discusfish.Amazing.You must have a lot of water ro raise them or have a possibility to sell them if they are a little bigger.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Pat.Wonderful again.I think you are never without bugglers.You breed so many discusfish.Amazing.You must have a lot of water ro raise them or have a possibility to sell them if they are a little bigger.

Hi Marc, you are giving me way too much credit. I only have two spawns, one at four months old (38 juvies) and this one (25/30 fry) just over a month old.

[Second Hand Pat]

These guys will be five weeks old tomorrow and I will not be able to do an update tomorrow. I will be heading north to Atlanta for the show and will be back late Sunday so the next update will be Monday.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well the fry are six weeks old and finally tonight they have been relocated to their own tank. There are 22 fry in this spawn so I will need to find out if that disqualifies me from the hobbyist challenge contest as Al's guidelines said the initial group was to be 30.

I will post some pictures tomorrow and let them settle tonight.

[Disgirl]

I just watched the video of them above. So cute and healthy Pat! Makes me wish I had some breeders and fry in a big tank like you do. Keep up the good work, I will keep an eye here.
Barb

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Barb, they do seem to be healthy little buggers. They are trying to orient themselves in their new tank tonight so no interest in food.

I should also add as a documentation point that the water mix in the new tank is 60% RO to 40% tap. I use this as a bridge from the parent's tank water to full up tap water.

[Second Hand Pat]

Here is the six week video. They were actually six weeks old yesterday. They are still not settled and only a few are willing to pick at the bottom of the tank. I may put a very lite coating of sand to help them adjust.

The spawn is fairly uniform with a few smaller ones and I will continue with the 60% RO to 40% tap for WCs as a couple of the fry have tails with a whitest border indicating that I could have acclimated better. I left the sponge filter dirty to ensure enough bio-media for the tank move.


http://youtu.be/OkpkvHIFkXo

[brewmaster15]

Pat,
At that size their tails and fins are fairly delicate. Its not uncommon to see a bit rough at the edges if you netted them,IMO...should disappear fairly soon with out any intervention.
hth,
al

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Al, I did net them, good to know :)

[Eddie]

Nice pups Pat!

[Second Hand Pat]

Nice pups Pat!

Thanks Eddie :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Al, next time you are this way from the guidelines in post 172 on page 9 of the original contest thread you indicate the 8 contest fish sure be selected when the spawn is about 8 weeks old. As a guess-a-mate what is the average size of 8 week old domestic fry?

[Second Hand Pat]

So I was talking to Larry (jaykne) last night giving him a show update and asked him the same question I asked Al above about the size of domestic fry at 8 weeks. Larry's answer was two inches for his fry lol and Larry knows how to grow out fry.

My reason for asking this is if I remember the guidelines correctly the contest fish have to be selected at about the eight week mark and these F1 Tefe fry will be around an inch or so. Wild greens are known for being slow growers and this will be true for the F1 Tefe fry. I knew this going into the contest and come judging time these guys size wise will not compare well to their domestic counterparts. My reason for entering the contest was to document the development of F1s for the interest of other members should there be any lol.

So this morning all the fry are out, grouped and fins fully spread out. They still swim to the back when I walk by the tank but another day or so they should be looking forward to me coming and feeding them.

[Brent1972]

This is very interesting Pat keep the updates coming , Please :)

[Second Hand Pat]

This is very interesting Pat keep the updates coming , Please :)

Will do Brent, that is the purpose of this log LOL, but I talk too much anyway. ;)

[Second Hand Pat]

Here are some pictures at six and one half weeks.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/Six_Weeks_1.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/Six_Weeks_2.jpg

[Keith Perkins]

No close ups? :) There looking good, very nice shape and size looks right on track. Guess I need to shoot some pictures and start a couple threads of my own.

[Second Hand Pat]

I will see what I can do for you Keith on the closeups. :) Would love to see some of your fry.

[nc0gnet0]

I don't worry to much about size at this young age just shape and vigor. Different strains grow at different rates, even amounst the domestics. Power feeding is not for those of us with day jobs at this young of age, water qualtiy is much more important, and consistancy in size amoungst the young juvies.

It was my understanding that at dime size you needed to select 30 to work with and not so much at what age. Age Will only be considered at contest end (ie. YOu need to document and measure at the one year mark).

Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Rick, I believe these guys are already at dime sized but need to tape a dime to the glass to verify. As far as 30 this spawn only has 22 fry so the "first cut" is already made. I did PM Al about not having 30 initial fish and his response that the guidelines were not harden into rules so I'm guessing I can remain in the contest unless someone objects.

Now my pondering about the size at eight weeks is based on when I need to select the eight contest fish? I sort of thought Harry would have selected his contest fish by now especially if some are pushing three inches so confused on that as well.

As far as shape and vigor I am happy with the shape but the vigor is not where it needs to be.

[nc0gnet0]

I can see no reason why you cannot start with less than 30, the only thing that does is put you at a slight disadvantage.

I thought we had to cut from 30 down to 8 at three inches, maybe Al will clarify for us. Failing to do so is indeed an advantage, but maybe there is some wiggle room? It will stretch to the limits the tanks space on some of those that want to grow out all there fry and they find themsleves needing to seperate them.

As for the "vigor" Pat, your fry are small in numbers and large on space. This can be great for water quality, but the fry don't have to "compete" much for food. They can pretty much eat at thier leasure and not worry about going hungry. While it is just my opinion, I believe sometime this competition encourages healthy appetites and the fry stuffing themselves.

Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

I can see no reason why you cannot start with less than 30, the only thing that does is put you at a slight disadvantage.

I thought we had to cut from 30 down to 8 at three inches, maybe Al will clarify for us. Failing to do so is indeed an advantage, but maybe there is some wiggle room? It will stretch to the limits the tanks space on some of those that want to grow out all there fry and they find themsleves needing to seperate them.

As for the "vigor" Pat, your fry are small in numbers and large on space. This can be great for water quality, but the fry don't have to "compete" much for food. They can pretty much eat at thier leasure and not worry about going hungry. While it is just my opinion, I believe sometime this competition encourages healthy appetites and the fry stuffing themselves.

Rick

Rick, sounds like a divider could be quite useful at this point. Thanks. I will ask Al for clarification on the 30 to 8 down select.

[Second Hand Pat]

No close ups? :) There looking good, very nice shape and size looks right on track. Guess I need to shoot some pictures and start a couple threads of my own.

Here you go Keith, bet you want more ;) Gill plate looks a bit short, hopefully it is just the age.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/One_Little_Fishy.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/Group.jpg

[Brokenrack]

Pat, Forgive me for jumping in here but what is your water hardness? Some minerals might help your growth rate ( I would go overboard on it though)
Just a thought.
Scott

[Second Hand Pat]

Scott, you are suppose to jump in :). These guys just went to full tap water last night so GH is 160 ppm and TDS is 210 which is a bit lower then I last measured (233). Guess all that rain last week kicked the TDS down on the well water. I pull the well water from a limestone layer which is fairly mineral rich.

[Keith Perkins]

It'll be interesting to see what the gill plates look like as the fish grow older in the higher TDS water now. I'll be interested to see what others think about that plate length at this age.

[Tommo]

It'll be interesting to see what the gill plates look like as the fish grow older in the higher TDS water now. I'll be interested to see what others think about that plate length at this age.

Thinks . . . a few years ago a number of Discus breeders, including myself, in the N. W. of England had problems with fry exhibiting extended gill opercular. Normally accompanied with faster than normal resperation although no parasites or flukes were evident. I met with a breeder who lived near Manchester and he had found a solution to the problem: using barley straw a product that is often used to control algae and green water in ponds. Many pond suppliers sell small pads of the straw which are then dropped onto the surface of the pond as a control.

Interestingly, he started to treat the water he used for his water changes by dropping a pad into his water storage containers - the problem disappeared. Nobody could figure out why but it certainly worked!

Of course there could be a number of other reasons that can cause problems with the development of gill opercular, e.g. oxygen deficiency at an early stage of development, but I thought SD members might find this interesting?

Paul

[Second Hand Pat]

It'll be interesting to see what the gill plates look like as the fish grow older in the higher TDS water now. I'll be interested to see what others think about that plate length at this age.

Keith, I PMed the fry closeup picture to one our super doper breeders here on SD and he suggest to watch how the fry develop over the next several weeks. Not all the fry from this spawn is affected is worst case these fry are culled.

I did lookup some of the old Dale Jordan fry pictures and the gill plate is definitely short and I am not really sure if this is fixable at this point but time will tell.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thinks . . . a few years ago a number of Discus breeders, including myself, in the N. W. of England had problems with fry exhibiting extended gill opercular. Normally accompanied with faster than normal resperation although no parasites or flukes were evident. I met with a breeder who lived near Manchester and he had found a solution to the problem: using barley straw a product that is often used to control algae and green water in ponds. Many pond suppliers sell small pads of the straw which are then dropped onto the surface of the pond as a control.

Interestingly, he started to treat the water he used for his water changes by dropping a pad into his water storage containers - the problem disappeared. Nobody could figure out why but it certainly worked!

Of course there could be a number of other reasons that can cause problems with the development of gill opercular, e.g. oxygen deficiency at an early stage of development, but I thought SD members might find this interesting?

Paul

That is interesting Paul, I wonder what was in the water supply causing this. In my case I am guessing mineral poor water while the fry were in with the parents. I reviewed the 6 week old video of the Batch A fry and all the gill plates were normal.

[Tommo]

IMO Pat, mineral poor water is unlikely to cause problems with Discus - in their natural habital mineral content is almost non existent. I should have also mentioned in my previous post that some fry also exhibited shortened opercular.

Another thought: was there any infusoria evident in the water when they were young? Young Discus seem to be adversely affected when infusoria is present indeed, adult Discus show an obvious dislike when infusoria is present. Infusoria competes for oxygen and one has to be careful when raising certain species of fish not to introduce too much infusoria as it can cause gill deformities (the humble tiger barb and penguin tetra are clasic examples).

BTW sorry for not replying to your earlier email: been mad busy since my return to China - not to mention jet-lag! The Batch A fry do indeed show some real potential. I used to love watching young Discus develop . . .

Paul

[Second Hand Pat]

Paul, I am not really sure about the infusoria. This batch was raised in the 230 gallon parent tank just like batch A. This is a huge tank with a sump and a sump tends to super oxygenate the water. So question, do you know if the short gill plates are permanent? or can the fry overcome this issue? Also could this be genetic?

[Tommo]

Paul, I am not really sure about the infusoria. This batch was raised in the 230 gallon parent tank just like batch A. This is a huge tank with a sump and a sump tends to super oxygenate the water. So question, do you know if the short gill plates are permanent? or can the fry overcome this issue? Also could this be genetic?

Pat it could possibly be a congenital problem but, given that you are working with wild fish, I think that this is unlikely - unless one of your parent fish has this condition? I also think that the shortened opercular are unlikely to regenerate - I can't say this for certain however, as I've always culled fish exhibiting this trait.

It would be interesting to compare the progeny of the 'new' male used with Batch B compared to the male that sired Batch A in order to see if if it's a congenital problem. Unfortunately one batch of fry from each male is insufficient to draw any conclusions.

I would tend to think however, that the cause of the problem is environmental rather than congenital.

Paul

[Eddie]

Actually increasing your TDS can help, not sure how much at this point.

An interesting fact, you will never see shortened gill plates in fry that have been raised in water with a high TDS or mineral content. Some gurus raise fry in RO waste for a reason. It ensures proper skeletal/tissue development. Fish absorb just as much nutrients from the water as they do their food.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=2115&page=17

[Second Hand Pat]

Actually increasing your TDS can help, not sure how much at this point.

An interesting fact, you will never see shortened gill plates in fry that have been raised in water with a high TDS or mineral content. Some gurus raise fry in RO waste for a reason. It ensures proper skeletal/tissue development. Fish absorb just as much nutrients from the water as they do their food.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=2115&page=17

Thanks Eddie, let's hope it does help but have my doubts :( Left them in the parents tank too long or should have raised the TDS after hatching or attachment.

[Eddie]

Thanks Eddie, let's hope it does help but have my doubts :( Left them in the parents tank too long or should have raised the TDS after hatching or attachment.

Yes, I generally start increasing the TDS gradually after hatch, using calcium and magnesium sulfate. Many just use RO waste as its loaded with minerals. I've seen it reversed at early stages. Its not over yet. Keep on going.

[nc0gnet0]

Yes, I generally start increasing the TDS gradually after hatch, using calcium and magnesium sulfate. Many just use RO waste as its loaded with minerals. I've seen it reversed at early stages. Its not over yet. Keep on going.

I concur to a point. I myself start slowly raising tds after hatch, but unlike some others, I think there is a point of dimishining returns. The threshold of sufficient mineral content in the water is reached fairly early, at which point adding more has little effect or advantage. It's just like you or I taking vitamins, one a day can be good for you, but taking three a day has little to no advantage over taking one a day.

Pat was batch B was raised in the same tank as batch A, can I ask did you feed alot of BBS to Batch A in that tank? How well was it cleaned? Thinking there might be (or was) a bacterial problem when the fry were extremly young.

Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

Rick, yes, both batches raised in the same tank but the TDS and GH were different. Batch A was 140 TDS and ~120 GH or so. Batch B TDS was 40 and GH between 40 to 80 best guess. Both batches feed BBS and FDBWs.

[Eddie]

Rick, yes, both batches raised in the same tank but the TDS and GH were different. Batch A was 140 TDS and ~120 GH or so. Batch B TDS was 40 and GH between 40 to 80 best guess. Both batches feed BBS and FDBWs.

Definitely appears to be a lack of mineral content in the water then.

[Tommo]

Actually increasing your TDS can help, not sure how much at this point.

An interesting fact, you will never see shortened gill plates in fry that have been raised in water with a high TDS or mineral content. Some gurus raise fry in RO waste for a reason. It ensures proper skeletal/tissue development. Fish absorb just as much nutrients from the water as they do their food.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=2115&page=17

Folks I suggest the important / crucial point to remember in the TDS / mineral argument is that from the day an egg is laid until the day an adult discus dies it develops and thrives in water with little or no mineral content and very low conductivity. In its natural environment discus are never subjected to the levels of TDS mentioned in this discussion - yet their bones structures (and opercular) develop normally. The article cited / linked above, although interesting, is very general in nature and, de facto, does not take into consideration species of fish that have overtime adapted to 'unique' conditions . . .

As for some 'gurus' raising fry in waste RO water. I can think of three other reasons for doing this off the top of my head:

1. It is far more convenient, and cost effective, to use waste RO water (or tap water) than to have to produce the large volumes of RO necessary to raise numbers of Discus.

2. By conditioning the fry to accept 'normal' water they adapt more easily to the 'average' aquarists aquarium . . . and are therefore easier to sell on.

3. Certain bacterial diseases do not thrive in harder water. The late Jorgan Scheel performed a series of experiments on raising killifish fry (Rivulins of the Old World). I wish I had this book with me here in China! Basically, he did a series of experiments raising killi fry in both hard and soft water. The fry raised in soft water were very susceptible to infection from a certain strain of bacteria whereas those raised in the hard water were not. I would suggest any person who keeps fish tries to get an old copy of this out of print book. The book has some fascinating insights e.g. do you know that you can induce certain 'hard to breed' species to spawn by treating aquarium water with the urine from a pregnant woman? And yes before you ask (sad man that I am) I have tried this and got two male Heckles to pair up and fertilize a sponge filter . . . .

Paul :D

[Eddie]

Are we feeding the fish the same food that is available to them in their natural habitat? Not at all. Food can pretty much cover all of the nutrient uptake for the requirements of the fish but if we can provide nutrients from both water and food, I'm all about it. Why? Because we can. Different strokes for different folks. ;)

[Second Hand Pat]

Well Paul, if you feel that the lack of mineral discussion is all wet then perhaps back to Rick's bacteria idea or your infusoria idea. But if the cause was bacterial or infusoria wouldn't the entire batch be affected?

I did eyeball the fry last night and there seems to be only about three or four which are affected by the short gill plates. Since these were parent raised could I be missing something in the parents diet? These fry didn't take BBS until the ninth day or so.

[nc0gnet0]

Definitely appears to be a lack of mineral content in the water then.

That would be my guess as well. I try to bring my TDS up to around 100 ppm gradually after hatch (from 35 tds) over a two-three day period. Everyones water is differrent however.

Rick

[Tommo]

Well Paul, if you feel that the lack of mineral discussion is all wet then perhaps back to Rick's bacteria idea or your infusoria idea. But if the cause was bacterial or infusoria wouldn't the entire batch be affected?

I did eyeball the fry last night and there seems to be only about three or four which are affected by the short gill plates. Since these were parent raised could I be missing something in the parents diet? These fry didn't take BBS until the ninth day or so.

Ask the question Pat: what does infusoria feed on? When one sets up an infusoria culture from scratch e.g. scalding a leaf of lettuce (old method I know) and topping up the jar with water what happens? The water goes cloudy, and smelly, because of the bacterial bloom which in turn feed the infusans until eventually the water clears. A simplistic explanation I know but there is a clear link. You know me well enough by now regarding my thoughts on water quality. :(. Bacteria / infusoria effecting all the fry if this was the cause? Possibly, but it's normally the weakest that succumb first . . .

The delay in feeding BBS may have had some effect of the growth rate of the fry but it is unlikely (although possible) to have resulted in shortened opercular. The fact that there was a small number of fry in a relatively large area of a mature aquarium means that they would have been getting some additional nourishment from small particles of food not consumed by the parent fish and micro organisms present in the sand drift wood etc. The diet that you've used feeding the parents seems okay from what I've read in your previous posts . . .

The intitial question I would be asking is why was there such a small number of fry: problems with the potency of the new male or perhaps water parameters? The tools we aquarists use for measuring water parameters are however, not very informative and can only be used as a guide. For e.g. we measure TDS and get a reading but what makes up the Total Disolved Solids? We have no idea! We can get TDS measurements from water in two different locations which result in the same 'number' but may contain very different solids/minerals. Try it for yourself: measure the TDS of your tap water and then boil it in an aluminium pan and take a second reading. The TDS reading will be significantly higher because of the aluminium that has leached out from the pan into the water. Measuring pH can also be 'misleading' . . .

You say that only 3 or 4 of the fry exhibit the short operculars: 14% - 18% - may seem high but could just be a blip. I would tend to wait and see what the result is from a second spawning from the same pair. I would spend my time just raising and enjoying the fry rather than playing around with the TDS.

I guess I've raised more questions than answers aye? The joys of keeping, and especially raising, Discus!

Paul

[Second Hand Pat]

Paul, you bring up the small number of fry with this spawn brings up somethings else which may have a hand in the short gill plates. The female had about seven or eight spawns between batch A and batch B and the last couple of spawns prior to batch B were large spawns, easily over 200 eggs per spawn. The number of eggs laid for batch B was pretty small, I was guessing around 40 eggs so maybe the quality of the spawn itself was substandard compared with the prior ones.

I am going to take your advice and enjoy and raise these guys to my best ability. The ones with the short gill plates can be useful as culls if I run into issues with this batch.

[Tommo]

Paul, you bring up the small number of fry with this spawn brings up somethings else . . . . . maybe the quality of the spawn itself was substandard compared with the prior ones.

I am going to take your advice and enjoy and raise these guys to my best ability. The ones with the short gill plates can be useful as culls if I run into issues with this batch.

Yes Pat, yet another variable - one of many ha ha. Enjoy

Paul

[Second Hand Pat]

That it is Paul and some interesting discussion too.

[Second Hand Pat]

Seven weeks old this past Wednesday. TDS is 211, Ph 7.8, temp 82 and one 90% WC a day. I am using the piece of wood to anchor the fry to one side of the tank and keep them all grouped up. Seems to be working pretty good.

http://youtu.be/fSZicbq8z7Q

[Keith Perkins]

Good idea on the wood to group them up on one end. It's funny how much they look like my RTs right now.

[Second Hand Pat]

I had similar thoughts seeing pics of your RTs the other night.

[jaykne]

Hey Pat you know me I don't make allot of comments but I have to here. Those fry are really looking great, I would say for F1's there size and shape are very very nice!!! a big :thumbsup: my friend your hard work shows.

[Second Hand Pat]

WOW and thanks Larry for the kind comments. I sure do appreciate it. :D

[Second Hand Pat]

I noticed today that a couple of the smaller fry were showing strong then normal bars today and during the WC this evening I pulled the prefilter on the AC30 and one of the fry got caught between the tank and prefilter and died :(

[Second Hand Pat]

Doing a WC this morning one of the fry was swimming weird and I caught it with my hand. Since it didn't look good I culled it. I am wondering if I pinched it doing the WC but I really try to be careful. Since it was one of the larger ones I measured it and it was one and 1/4 quarter inches.

Eyeballing the group this morning there is a core group doing very well but a couple do not seem to be eating with vigor and growing. I am considering culling those also but will decide tonight.

[Harry Marsh]

I think you have less of a gill plate problem than me :)
They are looking good to me

And further think that short gill plates are more genetic than a product of water conditions (to a reasonable degree)

Is there an easy product like kent marine essentials or? That others recommend for increasing TSS?
I will raise the TSS on my next batch and see if I find a difference

[Second Hand Pat]

I think you have less of a gill plate problem than me :)
They are looking good to me

And further think that short gill plates are more genetic than a product of water conditions (to a reasonable degree)

Is there an easy product like kent marine essentials or? That others recommend for increasing TSS?
I will raise the TSS on my next batch and see if I find a difference

Thanks Harry and appreciate your kind comments. The quality of this spawn is poor due to it being at the end of a series of spawns and the egg quality was poor IMO, hence the short gill plates (IMO). A prior spawn with a different male had no genetic issues. There is a core group of fish in this spawn which should be quite decent I hope.

I will be curious to see if raising the TDS has a postive effect on your fry. I will try the same by increasing the amount of tap in my RO water and see if I can get the female to choose the dad of this spawn but you never know with wild fish.

I love your RTs and growth wise they will beat these F1 greens hands down.

[Second Hand Pat]

Eight weeks old this past Wednesday.


http://youtu.be/6pNXktH7K-s

[nc0gnet0]

Why not just use some of the RO waste water instead of tap? It has the advantage of being through a 1 micron filter + a carbon block filter. Just check your tank with a tds meter for consistancy.

Rick

[Taylor Discus]

hi pat i have been following your threads on here and bidka with great interest as i also have around 20 f1 tefe at 2-3" looking mate keep it up

[Second Hand Pat]

Why not just use some of the RO waste water instead of tap? It has the advantage of being through a 1 micron filter + a carbon block filter. Just check your tank with a tds meter for consistancy.

Rick

Hi Rick, you suggesting this in the interest of upping the mineral content? and/or better water for growouts? The TDS difference between the tap and RO waste water is about 10 ppm and I would like to use the RO waste water if I could come up with a convinence way of collecting/using it.

[Second Hand Pat]

hi pat i have been following your threads on here and bidka with great interest as i also have around 20 f1 tefe at 2-3" looking mate keep it up

I have seen your video. How old are your juvies now.

[Eddie]

Hi Rick, you suggesting this in the interest of upping the mineral content? and/or better water for growouts? The TDS difference between the tap and RO waste water is about 10 ppm and I would like to use the RO waste water if I could come up with a convinence way of collecting/using it.

Get with Nicholson, he raises fry in straight RO waste. I'm sure he's got a good method on collecting it.

[joelgama]

How do you guys think TDS at say 700 will impact on the good or the bad the juvies growth? I am going straight tap water with my juvies but lowering the PH at about 6.5 to 7.0 ; any thoughts?


Scott, you are suppose to jump in :). These guys just went to full tap water last night so GH is 160 ppm and TDS is 210 which is a bit lower then I last measured (233). Guess all that rain last week kicked the TDS down on the well water. I pull the well water from a limestone layer which is fairly mineral rich.

[joelgama]

Hi using 100% RO waste water but wondering if TDS is at 700 if this will impact the juvies growth? any thoughts ?


Why not just use some of the RO waste water instead of tap? It has the advantage of being through a 1 micron filter + a carbon block filter. Just check your tank with a tds meter for consistancy.

Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Joel, the only person here on simply who has tried that is TURQ64 and the way he gets a TDS that high is by running a bunch of RO units together where the RO waste from the first RO unit is run into the input for RO unit 2 etc. I have no idea how many he chained together like this.

Another question to ask is how much is enough, ie there is only so many minerals a fish can use I would think from a common sense aspect.

[Eddie]

Hi Joel, the only person here on simply who has tried that is TURQ64 and the way he gets a TDS that high is by running a bunch of RO units together where the RO waste from the first RO unit is run into the input for RO unit 2 etc. I have no idea how many he chained together like this.

Another question to ask is how much is enough, ie there is only so many minerals a fish can use I would think from a common sense aspect.

You can get your TDS extremely high using Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Sulfate but really, as you mentioned...will it make any difference if a lower amount does the job.

[joelgama]

Thank you Pat and Eddie, maybe I did not explained myself correctly here; my questions was not on how to obtain a TDS of 700+ because I get RO waste water at about 550 since I have very hard well water and then it gets increased to about 700 when I lower my PH to about 6.5 but my question was more if this high of a TDS will affect the juvies growth since I hear a lot here on the forum to raise juvies at lower TDS like 200 to 300 TDS range.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Joel, you might try PMing TURQ64. His name is Gary and he is the only member here I know who may provide you with the growth rate info at the higher TDS. However to answer your question one would need to take juvies from the same spawn, split the group and grow them out at the two TDS values of interest for a true comparison.

[Second Hand Pat]

Munching out on FDBWs...do I dare say yum ;)

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/P1010103.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/P1010104.jpg

[jimg]

I would like to use the RO waste water if I could come up with a convinence way of collecting/using it. I run the waste line to a 55 gallon drum with an over flow and float valve at the top of the drum. put a tee in the waste line and run the other line to a drain. this way when the drum fills the valve shuts the flow and the water goes to the other pipe on the tee.you need to put the other tee line higher so the main force goes to the barrel got to play to adjust.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Jim :)

[Brent1972]

I am going to try raising the tds on my next batch of fry as my tds from the tap is 40-50 . I will use a remin product as you will get a even balance of minerals, If you use RO waste you don,t know what minerals will be in it and it could be a bad balance. As an example I can get a tds of 500 By adding epson salts but I cant see that would be good for the fish.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Brent, this is true unless you have a detailed analysis of your tap water. What I do know is with an high enough TDS (about 170) I know that my RO/tap mix can produce defective free fry. The Batch A fry hatched prior to this batch are 38 strong and defect free. So I do not feel that I need to resort to a remin product at this point in time. :)

[Brent1972]

Hi Brent, this is true unless you have a detailed analysis of your tap water. What I do know is with an high enough TDS (about 170) I know that my RO/tap mix can produce defective free fry. The Batch A fry hatched prior to this batch are 38 strong and defect free. So I do not feel that I need to resort to a remin product at this point in time. :)

Hi Pat , All that matters is it works for you :D

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Pat , All that matters is it works for you :D

Thanks Brent

[Second Hand Pat]

I am beginning to think this spawn is cursed. Culled another one this morning, hanging in the corner by itself not eating for a couple of days. Since it was one of the larger ones I measured and it was just under an one inch and a half. Wild F1 greens are definitely slow growers.

[Coffee1stLife2nd]

awww I think they are beautiful....

[Chicago Discus]

Pat don't give up on them yet they are at that crappy stage just give it a little longer......Josie

[Second Hand Pat]

awww I think they are beautiful....


Pat don't give up on them yet they are at that crappy stage just give it a little longer......Josie

Thanks guys.

Josie, I will give them a couple more days. You are right about the crappy stage.

[nc0gnet0]

I am going to try raising the tds on my next batch of fry as my tds from the tap is 40-50 . I will use a remin product as you will get a even balance of minerals, If you use RO waste you don,t know what minerals will be in it and it could be a bad balance. As an example I can get a tds of 500 By adding epson salts but I cant see that would be good for the fish.

If you want to spend money on what you are already throwing down the drain, be my guest :) As Pat suggested, getting your water tested is the way to go if you need to know for sure, or, just let the results tell you. Most all water with high TDS is high in calcium, the primary mineral needed for proper juvie growth (not getting into the trace elements here).

Joel, as for raising juvies in that high a TDS, there would be no advantage, but with you on well water I would be concerned with phosphates...might want to have it checked. I see no point in playing with PH.

[Second Hand Pat]

These guys are actually doing rather well. There are two smaller ones but the rest are pretty much the same size and they are eating good. I have introduced my latest seafood mix and it seems to be a hit. This guys are progressing along the same path as the Batch A juvies which are turning into excellent fish.

[Second Hand Pat]

I culled the two smallest fish. They were a bit dark and I didn't like the look of them. So that is five out of 22. I did measure one of them and it was a bit of an inch.

[Chicago Discus]

I culled the two smallest fish. They were a bit dark and I didn't like the look of them. So that is five out of 22. I did measure one of them and it was a bit of an inch.


Sounds great Pat I can't wait to see them grow up

[Second Hand Pat]

Josie, if you want an idea of what they will look like check out the latest Batch A video in my homestead.

[tshears]

This is awesome! I just joined these forums and I'm also located in CFL and have gotten into discus over the last year. I hope to meet you in person and see these fish :) Just sent you a PM to introduce myself.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Tyler, sent you a PM back. Nice to meet you. An actual local person...didn't know they existed :D

[Second Hand Pat]

Water change video


http://youtu.be/nqKIRqnXafo

After the water change I tried to shine a light on the fry. It didn't go so well. Not happy campers.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/P7240037.jpg

Except for these guys.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/P7240039.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

I have not talked much about a feeding schedule with these guys. Since I work full time I prepare two feedings which my spouse feeds at 12:00pm and 2:00pm (he is still out of work :(). So I am up at 6:00am and first thing is lights on in the "fishroom". I then pull out the frozen foods I will be feeding that morning, generally brine shrimp (regular or spiralina) and my seafood mix. Off to the shower.

By the time I return from the shower the fish are awake, hungry and the food has thawed. so I feed first the brine shrimp to both the contest fish and the other juvies and just before I left for work I press two cubes of Al's FDBWs to the glass and scoot out the door.

Tom feeds at 12:00 and 2:00pm which is one brine shrimp and one seafood mix.

I return about 5:00pm and press two more cubes of FDBWs to the glass and about 7:00pm the last feeding of seafood mix. Around 8:00/8:30 I wipedown the tank. I started using an unrolled pot scubbie for this instead of paper towels. I find the pot scubbie removes the slime with one or two swipes vs several with the paper towels from the tank walls/floor.

I turn off the spouge filter and allow the junk in the water to settle and then 30 mins later a almost 100% WC and lights out.

[Second Hand Pat]

Ten weeks old today. Showing that turquoise sheen wild green discus are known for.


http://youtu.be/NwbnH7ilmIA

[Chicago Discus]

pat they look great my friend.... What substrat are you using........Josie

[Second Hand Pat]

Aw thanks Josie, it is just a wee bit of PFS. I do believe they are coming out of that "creepy" phase. Believe that is what you called it. Very apropos

[Chicago Discus]

Aw thanks Josie, it is just a wee bit of PFS. I do believe they are coming out of that "creepy" phase. Believe that is what you called it. Very apropos

I hate that stage LOL... It's like do or die .......Josie

[Second Hand Pat]

Agreed Josie, exactly right description.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well, I was going to cull this group but damn they are starting to look nice. So this weekend it is time to separate the eight contest fish which leaves nine fish left as the odd ball group. I also have a new batch of eggs from my tefe female and the one male who has not breed yet or has as of now. So I have a batch C. Sigh.

[ockyra215]

I see your doing well Pat so far so good!

[Second Hand Pat]

I see your doing well Pat so far so good!

Thanks Dave and agree, so far so good. These guys are almost to the piece of cake stage.

[Second Hand Pat]

Some pictures from tonight.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/p1010112.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/p1010113.jpg

It is a bloody shame these two suffer from the short gill plates.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/p1010115.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/p1010116.jpg


http://youtu.be/cMU-SXW0LpI

[nickfish39]

Pat, I can't just sit back and watch your thread anymore. I have to say how much I love your fish! Those little guys are looking great! Sorry about the malformed gill plates. That is really too bad. When you get to the point where you need to get rid of a few (not the culls obviously!!) I would love to buy some! I have been trying to get my hands on some good wild or F1 Tefes for a long time, but it has never really worked out timing wise! What did you decide to do with that batch anyway?

[petclub]

this tread is amazing and give suitable information about pets like fish

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat, I can't just sit back and watch your thread anymore. I have to say how much I love your fish! Those little guys are looking great! Sorry about the malformed gill plates. That is really too bad. When you get to the point where you need to get rid of a few (not the culls obviously!!) I would love to buy some! I have been trying to get my hands on some good wild or F1 Tefes for a long time, but it has never really worked out timing wise! What did you decide to do with that batch anyway?

Hi Nick and thanks for your kind words. The short gill plates affects only a few of them and I am setting up the pair if this batch to spawn again. I hope to make some of these guys available on simply sometime in the future. When you ask about what I decided to do "that batch" are you referring to this batch, Batch B or Batch A. This batch (Batch B) will be divided into two groups, eight will be the contest fish for the current hobbyist challenge here on simply and the rest of this batch will be grown out in a separate tank. Batch A has the same mom but a different dad are currently being grown out in a 75 and are five months old.

[joshvito]

Well, I was going to cull this group but damn they are starting to look nice. So this weekend it is time to separate the eight contest fish which leaves nine fish left as the odd ball group. I also have a new batch of eggs from my tefe female and the one male who has not breed yet or has as of now. So I have a batch C. Sigh.

Pat,
Can you describe what you look for when you cull or selected your contest fish?
I am new to discus fry, and wondering how you pick the ones to keep. Also, what do you do with the culls?

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat,
Can you describe what you look for when you cull or selected your contest fish?
I am new to discus fry, and wondering how you pick the ones to keep. Also, what do you do with the culls?

Hi Josh, as you can tell I did not cull this group. They were starting to really look good so decided to keep them. I would suggest there are two forms of culling.

The first is where a fish looks bad, is dark, closed fins, maybe tail standing a little, not eating, hiding, stays off by itself etc. A fish like this can spread nasties to your other fry. If I have one or two in the group looking like this I will cull them. Now if you have several looking like this there could be something wrong with the group and this may require different action.

Another form of culling is where you have a healthy fish which has an obvious defect like short gill plates. You can choose to cull or not. Reasons for not culling is the group is small and fry grow best in decent sized groups. If the group gets sick the defective fish can be culled for scoping purposes etc.

People also cull the smaller fry, uneven eyes, fin defects etc. I am not an expert with any of this and between the two batches of fry I have culled less then a dozen fry.

[nickfish39]

Hi Nick and thanks for your kind words. The short gill plates affects only a few of them and I am setting up the pair if this batch to spawn again. I hope to make some of these guys available on simply sometime in the future. When you ask about what I decided to do "that batch" are you referring to this batch, Batch B or Batch A. This batch (Batch B) will be divided into two groups, eight will be the contest fish for the current hobbyist challenge here on simply and the rest of this batch will be grown out in a separate tank. Batch A has the same mom but a different dad are currently being grown out in a 75 and are five months old.

Sorry for not specifying which group. I was talking about group "B". I only asked because for a short while you were talking about culling the whole group, and possibly entering group "A" as participants. I may have just miss understood that part. I didn't realize group "A" was already 5 months old. Amazing work!

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Nick, sorry for the confusion. I created this Batch A and Batch B convention prior the this contest coming into existance. I adopted this convention to help name and track the progress of the two wild Tefe spawns resulting in fry. To make things even worst I suspect there will be a Batch B2 when I get home tonight.

[boscobear]

Congrats, Another batch, maybe. Don't want to count the fry before they hatch. We look forward to your postings of the growth of yet another batch of fry. The parents, is this a different pairing? Looking forward to the photos, and videos, and the story.
I purchased both of Andrew's books, I'm nearly half way through "Truth", and I'll never see a discus in the same light as I once did before. When I look at photos, and videos posted on SD, I see so much more of these discus now. These books have a wealth of information for hobbist of all levels of fish keeping.

Ron & Doris

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Ron & Doris, it will be the same pairing as the fry in the contest hence using Batch B2. So glad you are enjoying the various threads on my fish adventures :). Andrew's books are priceless. I bought mine at the 2012 show. The man himself is awesome.

[nickfish39]

Man Pat, you are going to have to start organizing them with the Dewey Decimal System!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Second Hand Pat]

Nick, if I was breeding that many fish I would need to retire. lol

[Second Hand Pat]

Dirty tank and all.

http://youtu.be/glMxDugI-PQ

[Second Hand Pat]

I forget to turn the heater back on last night after the water change as the tank was 78. Didn't even faze the fry.

[nickfish39]

I forget to turn the heater back on last night after the water change as the tank was 78. Didn't even faze the fry.

Maybe you can work on developing a cool water discus! That way we could save a couple hundred a month on our power bills!

One could only dream...

Glad nothing bad happened to the fry though. Accidents like that are always the most frustrating to me.

-Nick

[Chicago Discus]

I forget to turn the heater back on last night after the water change as the tank was 78. Didn't even faze the fry.

Thank god for Florida weather. LOL.....Josie

[Second Hand Pat]

Maybe you can work on developing a cool water discus! That way we could save a couple hundred a month on our power bills!

One could only dream...

Glad nothing bad happened to the fry though. Accidents like that are always the most frustrating to me.

-Nick


Thank god for Florida weather. LOL.....Josie

My house stays at 78 this time of year for the most part. :) I was talking with Tony Silvia at the 2012 show about the temperture ranges for wild discus and he said being in the 70s for wild discus is not a big deal. The temperture stays at 78 for all my Tefe spawns in the big tank from egg to free swimming. Even Paul Butler said he keeps his pairs at 78 from eggs to free swimming also. I asked him why and he said it keeps the parents calm.

[Second Hand Pat]

So I made the initial cut to eight fish and with eyeballing them selecting the largest does not net you the best of the group. So I am allowing them to settle a bit will may switch a couple about before I settle on the final eight. Tomorrow noon is the deadline for me for the final cut.

[Second Hand Pat]

Here's my contest fish. Choosing is not easy and especially with an uneducated eye lol. The fish are huddled up from being chased with a net so why they seem stressed. The other fish are in the tank below. I will tape the quarter on tonight and get pictures of that once they have settled.


http://youtu.be/_gCc7hAtxME

[Chicago Discus]

Oh they look fine Pat just give them a little time I usually cover the tank with a towel when i move them for me it seems to get them used to their surroundings faster then after a few hours I take the towel away so they can see the big bad world....Josie

[Second Hand Pat]

Oh they look fine Pat just give them a little time I usually cover the tank with a towel when i move them for me it seems to get them used to their surroundings faster then after a few hours I take the towel away so they can see the big bad world....Josie

Thanks Josie, that is a good idea for next time.

[Kingdom Come Discus]

Can't really tell about all of them but it seems most have nice shape.

[Second Hand Pat]

Kraig, I will take a better video later this week. It was really hard to tell in that last video as they were all huddled together. I will let you be the judge on the shape. I fully expect these guys to follow the same path as batch A and those guys are looking awesome.

[Tobrienne]

Now I don't feel so bad for my tanks being a bit dirty lol.. a friend of mine works at our local BigAls and he mentioned my tanks are cleaner by far than his. Made me proud :D

[Second Hand Pat]

Now I don't feel so bad for my tanks being a bit dirty lol.. a friend of mine works at our local BigAls and he mentioned my tanks are cleaner by far than his. Made me proud :D

Tobrienne, I figure part of the point of the contest is to show the good, the bad and the ugly. Dirty tank would be part of the ugly. :p

[Second Hand Pat]

12 Weeks old this past Wednesday. Water parameters and feeding schedule is the same. 90% plus WC a day and I still need to tape the quarter to the tank. There is a piece of paper showing two inches and it has not made it into the video yet.

http://youtu.be/ohIXWghkNC8

[Second Hand Pat]

The paper in this video is 2 inches long and as you can see the F1s are not quite there yet.


http://youtu.be/VscAvVyw200

[Chicago Discus]

They look good Pat I Like the way they are moving along....Josie

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Josie, they are moving along....slowly lol. This definitely a learning experience, especially with many people at and of different levels.

[strawberryblonde]

It's a LOT of fun to watch the progress. Gotta tell ya, Al had a great idea for the contest this year.

Oh and Pat, it's a hoot to watch those little guys attacking the FDBW's. How many do you go through in a day?

[dpete9]

Pat,
Do you notice any significant difference between these guys and Batch A at this age?

[joelgama]

Thanks Rick, I will give a check to the phosphates but if phosphates are high is this going to affect the juvies? and secondly , I am not asking how a high TDS will be an advantage or benefit to grow juvies but more on how this high tds could affect or impact the juvies growth??

If you want to spend money on what you are already throwing down the drain, be my guest :) As Pat suggested, getting your water tested is the way to go if you need to know for sure, or, just let the results tell you. Most all water with high TDS is high in calcium, the primary mineral needed for proper juvie growth (not getting into the trace elements here).

Joel, as for raising juvies in that high a TDS, there would be no advantage, but with you on well water I would be concerned with phosphates...might want to have it checked. I see no point in playing with PH.

[Second Hand Pat]

It's a LOT of fun to watch the progress. Gotta tell ya, Al had a great idea for the contest this year.

Oh and Pat, it's a hoot to watch those little guys attacking the FDBW's. How many do you go through in a day?

Toni, at this point only one cube at a time. I tried two but the second would slowly soften and drift to the water surface. They generally get two feedings a day of FDBWs. They also get two feeding of adult brine shrimp and my seafood mix.

This was a great idea on Al's part. Will be fun to watch all the fish progress.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat,
Do you notice any significant difference between these guys and Batch A at this age?

Pete, these guys might be a tad bigger. The batch A were set back a little at eight weeks due to getting sick.

[CrazyAngels]

Hi there Pat, looks like they are doing well for you, it is lovely watching them munching on the worms. Keep up the great work you're doing with them.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi there Pat, looks like they are doing well for you, it is lovely watching them munching on the worms. Keep up the great work you're doing with them.

Thanks Jorge, I still can not decide whether I am happy with them or not but for the most part they are doing and eating well.

[Second Hand Pat]

OK guys, 13 weeks old and slow growing. Again due to being the F1s of wild greens.


http://youtu.be/m3r88SN_fK4

[Kingdom Come Discus]

They are looking good Pat!!!!

[Second Hand Pat]

They are looking good Pat!!!!

Thanks Kraig

[nwehrman]

May be growing slow but they look good!


Nicole

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Keith Perkins]

I'm avoiding doing WCs by getting caught up on your threads Pat. Glad to see some of these guys doing so well, given they're from my favorite of your males. No offense to you husband Husband. :)

[Second Hand Pat]

May be growing slow but they look good!


Nicole

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks Nicole :)

[Second Hand Pat]

I'm avoiding doing WCs by getting caught up on your threads Pat. Glad to see some of these guys doing so well, given they're from my favorite of your males. No offense to you husband Husband. :)

Thanks Keith and the night is still young, for WCs that is. Your favorite male is fanning a huge clutch of eggs at the moment. His daddy skills are getting better. I will tell Tom you meant no offense lol.

[Second Hand Pat]

14 weeks old now. Like Harry I notice that with a smaller group of fish some are a little dark sometimes. Also feeding is basically a slow graze.

I also pan over to Batch A which are about 6 months old to show what Batch B will look like when older. Meanwhile in the big tank the Batch B parents have a nice large wiggler mod which attached today. I do have not video of that yet. When I try mom eases into a dark corner and all you see is dark.


http://youtu.be/1HY2gjJcesY

[Eddie]

Looking good Pat!

[joshvito]

I forget to turn the heater back on last night after the water change as the tank was 78. Didn't even faze the fry.

IMO, This isn't surprising for domestic discus. I would imagine your wilds are okay as long as it isn't prolonged low temp.


TFCEC Member
Join a local fish club.
www.tropical-fish-club-of-erie-county.com

[Second Hand Pat]

Looking good Pat!

Thanks Eddie, how are your blues doing?

[Second Hand Pat]

IMO, This isn't surprising for domestic discus. I would imagine your wilds are okay as long as it isn't prolonged low temp.


TFCEC Member
Join a local fish club.
www.tropical-fish-club-of-erie-county.com

Josh, I intend to only keep the temp low between egg laying and free swimming. However I had a discussion with Tony Silva at the NADA show who has spend time in the Amazon area and he said that wild discus do live in 70s temp for prolonged periods

[BobDaniel]

Hi Pat! Here are some links to articles written by Heiko Bleher that may interest you:

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=89
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2724
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2927

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Pat! Here are some links to articles written by Heiko Bleher that may interest you:

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=89
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2724
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2927

Thanks Bob, these are very interesting and I have taken a quick pass through them. Thanks for the links and info.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

A quick little video. Not fancy but does show these guys are starting to show some potential shape wise.


http://youtu.be/V_EytnPwzMM

[MKD]

very nice, great job Pat. im admire how you can manage all those batches.

[Second Hand Pat]

very nice, great job Pat. im admire how you can manage all those batches.

Thanks Tony, actually two batches across three tanks.

[Second Hand Pat]

I am having a setback with my contest fish which was the same setback I had with Batch A. They are a bit dark with lack of eating vigor. With Batch A it was suspected to be an external and after a consult with jimg I will be running these guys through a 21 day course of praziquantel.

[Second Hand Pat]

I also added a piece of wood to help ground these guys to the right side of the tank.


http://youtu.be/sU88SeBy_0M

[Tommo]

I am having a setback with my contest fish which was the same setback I had with Batch A. They are a bit dark with lack of eating vigor. With Batch A it was suspected to be an external and after a consult with jimg I will be running these guys through a 21 day course of praziquantel.

Hi Pat can you remember my comments regarding your Batch A fry and 'protozoan' infections being 'more common' in the Spring and Fall?

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Pat can you remember my comments regarding your Batch A fry and 'protozoan' infections being 'more common' in the Spring and Fall?

I do Paul. It is almost fall here.

[Second Hand Pat]

I begin the treatment after the WC last night and these guys look somewhat better this morning with a better feeding response.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well, I decided I needed a better response from these guys so I dis-continued the praziquantel treatment for a day, gave the fry a rest and PPed (2 ppm at 4 hours) them yesterday. After the PP treatment three were still a bit dark but one is most likely a cull :( It is wondering aimlessly with fins at half mast.

This morning all were normal color except the one cull. I will cull it tonight unless it's status changes. Also a lot better feeding response this morning then before.

[DLFL]

Good luck Pat! I hope they are back on schedule now!

Dick L.

[Eddie]

Well, I decided I needed a better response from these guys so I dis-continued the praziquantel treatment for a day, gave the fry a rest and PPed (2 ppm at 4 hours) them yesterday. After the PP treatment three were still a bit dark but one is most likely a cull :( It is wondering aimlessly with fins at half mast.

This morning all were normal color except the one cull. I will cull it tonight unless it's status changes. Also a lot better feeding response this morning then before.

Sorry to hear Pat, glad that they seem to be on the mend though. Keep us updated!

[Second Hand Pat]

Good luck Pat! I hope they are back on schedule now!

Dick L.

Thanks Dick, almost back on schedule. :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Sorry to hear Pat, glad that they seem to be on the mend though. Keep us updated!

Thanks Eddie, may even save the one :)

Here are some pictures. There is still a dark one but he is looking better.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/p1010124.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/p1010123.jpg

[Eddie]

Thanks Eddie, may even save the one :)

Here are some pictures. There is still a dark one but he is looking better.


Nice, hope it pulls through.

[Second Hand Pat]

Nice, hope it pulls through.

Thanks Eddie, not sure it will as it doesn't seem to be eating (most likely time to cull). However the other seven were begging for seconds this morning. :D

[Disgirl]

Good luck with them Pat!
Barb

[Second Hand Pat]

Good luck with them Pat!
Barb

Thanks Barb, they aren't looking half bad tonight. A couple of them are getting a wee bit of color on the lower fins and all have red eyes.


http://youtu.be/q1KYgy3tsH0

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Beautiful group Pat. Nice shape and the colors will pop soon as they get a bit bigger. Can't wait to see them at 4 inches or so.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Jeff, they are showing a hint of color in lower fins.

[Second Hand Pat]

These guys are starting to show a wee hint of color in the lower fins and the one I said I was going to cull died today so down to seven fish.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/p1010136.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/p1010134.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/p1010127.jpg

[Kingdom Come Discus]

Sorry to hear about the one fish Pat however the others are looking great.

[Second Hand Pat]

Sorry to hear about the one fish Pat however the others are looking great.

Thanks Kraig :)

[DLFL]

Pat the fry are looking very good! Keep up the good work. I am prodding along with my tank.

Dick

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat the fry are looking very good! Keep up the good work. I am prodding along with my tank.

Dick

Thanks Dick and good to hear. Take you time with your tank and do it right :)

[Second Hand Pat]

I am on the third treatment of the praziquantel and the fry are consistently looking good which makes me happy. I have been a bit bummed about them, when your fry are sick it really destroys your enjoyment working with them.

[Eddie]

I am on the third treatment of the praziquantel and the fry are consistently looking good which makes me happy. I have been a bit bummed about them, when your fry are sick it really destroys your enjoyment working with them.

Sorry to hear Pat. Hope they get a full recovery soon.

[Pardal]

Pat I sent you a PM.

Julian.

[Second Hand Pat]

Sorry to hear Pat. Hope they get a full recovery soon.

Thanks Eddie, they are looking 100% better so believe they are over the hump. I am now treating the other half of Batch B.

[Second Hand Pat]

So while the fry look ok, the feeding vigor is rather poor. Saturday evening I did a PP (2 ppm and my idea) treatment to jumpstart them but that had no effect and (via PM) Jim (jimg) reminded me about the metro treatment I used on Batch A. So last night I started a course of metro and this morning the fry were waiting on me at feeding time.

[rdiscus]

That's good to hear Pat ...

[Second Hand Pat]

That's good to hear Pat ...

Thanks Ryan.

[Second Hand Pat]

Full tank shot. 40 breeder with wood on one end to anchor the group to one end of the tank. Does it work, well it did with Batch A but with this small group not so much. They are still under going the metro treatment and the feeding vigor better but not great. :(

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/P1010128.jpg

Group shots: There are still seven and size wise maybe two inches average and definitely not uniform. Color is coming in and all have red eyes. I will be documenting water parameters a little later tonight. One 90% WC per day and feed seafood mix, FDBWs, brine shrimp and introducing Bill's Super BH flake with pro-growth.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/p1010127-1.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/p1010126.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/P1010130.jpg

[Keith Perkins]

Sorry to hear you lost one Pat. It definitely does take the wind out of your enjoyment sails when you have to deal with this stuff. Hoping the other seven are eating you out of house and home soon.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hope so Keith :)

[Eddie]

Looks like they are coming around Pat, nice work.

[Second Hand Pat]

They are Eddie thanks

[Second Hand Pat]

Part of the documentation requirements is a "quarter or other similar sized object on the side of the tank as a reference mark for size". I did not use a quarter but instead a piece of paper with two inches marked out in it in ink. Tonight I will include a picture with a measuring tape beside the paper to show the paper is marked correctly.

[rdiscus]

Believe you Pat about your paper marked ... think we need real measuring tape for 6 months and 1 year old :)

[Second Hand Pat]

We do Ryan. My intent was to verify the paper was correctly measured since I was not using a quarter.

[Second Hand Pat]

These guys are about 4 and 1/2 months old and they have lots of catching up to do. I compared them to Batch A and they are behind Batch A :( Tank is a bit dirty as it just before a WC. I also removed the sand.


http://youtu.be/nep0BqVHgCE

Here is my point of reference for size.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/F1_Tefe_Batch_A_Contest_Fish/IMAG1015.jpg

[TNT77]

They eating better for you Pat?

[Second Hand Pat]

Some Tara. It could be better. I am upping the WCs. I guess they really need a smaller tank. Harry is right that working with a smaller group is much harder.

[TNT77]

Some Tara. It could be better. I am upping the WCs. I guess they really need a smaller tank. Harry is right that working with a smaller group is much harder.
Wonder if leaving the smaller group in the same tank but using a divider would have made a difference in stress levels.

[Second Hand Pat]

I will add a divider and see. Just need a piece of form.

[TNT77]

I will add a divider and see. Just need a piece of form.
How about a piece of eggcrate? Its what I use to separate groups of juvies that start to way outgrow others in the same tank. They can still see the other juvies so they still have a sense of being in a larger group.

[Second Hand Pat]

Tara, I can use the egg crate to divide the tank but I can not add juvies to the tank on the other side of the divider. The rules were pretty clear that once the 8 contest fish were chosen all other fish had to be removed from the tank.

[TNT77]

Tara, I can use the egg crate to divide the tank but I can not add juvies to the tank on the other side of the divider. The rules were pretty clear that once the 8 contest fish were chosen all other fish had to be removed from the tank.
Sorry I really haven't read through the rules. That makes things way harder doesn't it.

[Second Hand Pat]

Sorry I really haven't read through the rules. That makes things way harder doesn't it.

It does :)

[TNT77]

It does :)
Maybe some live would help a bit. You grow red wigglers correct? Chop some really small ones up. That might get their attention a bit.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Tara, I will try that.

[Second Hand Pat]

A quick picture with the new camera. I almost pulled these from the contest. Len talked me into staying in. The fish are doing ok but eating could be better. I pulled the little bit from sand from the tank so we are totally BB. I also added one oz of barley straw in a pellet form to the AC-30 to see if it can help lower the breathing rate of the fish.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/DSC_0194_zps4454dbcd.jpg

[Eddie]

They look good Pat. All the best!

[Second Hand Pat]

Eddie, if I showed you a video of them you would think different.

[Dogvet06]

They are so cute! Im really liking tefes

[Second Hand Pat]

Jaimie, check out Batch A in my homesteader. I just uploaded some new pictures.

[Dogvet06]

Yeah i saw them and didnt realize when i posted on this one it was batch B ... Now im seriously thinking of holding on to my empty 80 g bow or my 75g...or both.o my! My hubby would kill me!

[Second Hand Pat]

My hubby is long past killing me lol.

[Dogvet06]

Of course i did show him pics of some of ur wilds u took today and he seems to like them more than my domestic ones. Maybe i can convert him heheh

[Second Hand Pat]

Holler and I will send you some videos. Those will for sure convince them lol.

[Dogvet06]

Heh i bet! Thanks. I will continue to drool over your pics. :)

[damba]

Those you look good. Thanks for this great thread.

I live in Eastbourne - the sunniest place in Britain. That isn't really saying much...
Coffee please - black and strong in pint mugs, for best results at least 6 a day.

[nc0gnet0]

Pat,

They do make a barely straw extract you can use, pretty common for ponds and a lot less hassle.

http://www.amazon.com/Microbe-Lift-32-Ounce-Concentrated-MLCBSE1L/dp/B0017678BA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350912476&sr=8-1&keywords=barley+straw+extract

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat,

They do make a barely straw extract you can use, pretty common for ponds and a lot less hassle.

http://www.amazon.com/Microbe-Lift-32-Ounce-Concentrated-MLCBSE1L/dp/B0017678BA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350912476&sr=8-1&keywords=barley+straw+extract

Thanks Rick, I already have the pellets. I placed about an oz in a small mesh bag and set it in my AC-30. I did note a better feeding response this morning. Not saying it is associated with the barley straw pellets due to the feeding response is slowly getting better with time.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well guys, I am reasonable sure I am withdrawing these guys from the contest. They are simply not thriving and as a group are between two and three inches and coming up on six months of age. If anyone has any suggestions I am all ears.

[Eddie]

Sorry to hear Pat. Will you be keeping any from the batch?

[nc0gnet0]

I would leave then in, it's all about finishing the race. It would be a good learning experiance to see if they can recover and grow out to normal adult size.....the extra three months will help you. ;)

Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

Sorry to hear Pat. Will you be keeping any from the batch?

Not sure Eddie, guess if I withdraw myself I will put the batch back together and see if the increased numbers help. I do not think it will make much difference due to the low numbers.


I would leave then in, it's all about finishing the race. It would be a good learning experiance to see if they can recover and grow out to normal adult size.....the extra three months will help you. ;)

Rick

I don't know Rick. I will think about it. There is something to be said for finishing the thing but another to have something worthwhile at the end based on time and effort.

[rdiscus]

Sorry to hear that Pat ... Wish you the best

[Kingdom Come Discus]

You have another 9 months Pat if the contest gets extended. If not a lot can happen in six months. I sure would hate to see you leave, but I would understand completely. Good luck!!!!!

[Trier20]

Sorry to hear Pat. Hope things turn around for ya. Hopefully my bad luck hasn't passed on to you :(

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks guys, after an hour long chat with Kraig I am reluctantly going to continue. I am down to five fish and in an effect to clean them up I have gone through a 21 day treatment of prazi, a 10 day treatment of metro and flub based wormer plus from the UK. Basically a similar process when cleaning up adult wilds. These last two which passed had that closed zombie look so I expected this outcome. I caught one in the vac and that certainly didn't help.

The remaining five are alert and seem to be eating but a bit concerned about one of them. Paul has recommended a course of action regarding foods and feeding intervals. I will post pics and more update in a day or so. I will also add that I inserted a divider to the 40 breeder to corral them into a smaller space. I can not tell if that has helped yet.

[Harry Marsh]

Agreed with Rick

Regardless of the outcome, the information gained from any 'grown out' fish will be valuable.

[Second Hand Pat]

True, but I feel more can be gleamed from the process getting there. I am not sure what can be gleamed from producing wild F1 stunted fish. Unless they do not end up stunted which could show that a two year growth period could be an advantage.

[Alfredo Llecha]

Pat, The "Zombie face" is common in 100% of the discus treated with organophosphates, sometimes with antibiotics and other chemicals a few ratio of the discus is affected. For example some individual has severe reaction to the MS222 during the transport, but I guess it is not your case. I sent you a PM. I hope everything is doing well for you.

[Second Hand Pat]

Alfredo, I understand the zombie state (closed fins, not interested in eating or eating poorly) can be a infestation of gill flukes or external protozoans. This picture raised concerns in Paul (Tommo). This picture is Batch A and they were about eight weeks old.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/p1010124.jpg

This was a somewhat later picture of Batch A and after treatment.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20F1%20Timeline/P1010038.jpg

Batch A are eight months old and look like this.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/DSC_0197_zpsf354fe1f.jpg

Since these thread are being watched and are considered a learning tool would you mind giving more meaning to organophosphates, MS222 etc.

[Kingdom Come Discus]

Glad your staying in Pat!!!

[Second Hand Pat]

Glad your staying in Pat!!!

Thanks Kraig, I will do my best this these guys. They are really dark on the moment. Not sure why.

[Alfredo Llecha]

Pat I understood "zombie" as the state of the fish floating basically static, with the fins fully extended, its pupils fully dilated and absence of eye movements (like Zombies). Long time ago the organophosphate insecticide, Trichlorfon was the most effective drug against the gill flukes, the side effect of that drug was that all the discus in contact with Trichlorfon will stay in the "zombie state" during a week. MS222 is an anesthetic present in the "Bag Buddie" commercial solution for shipping the fishes. Sorry for misunderstood.

After watching your pics I want to discuss with you some questions,

1) What kind of food are they feeding, and in case of beef heart mix, what kind of minerals and vitamins do you add to the mix?
2) Do you add to the water some kind of conditioner, salt or RO waste?
3) I understand your water temperature is 82-84F.
4) I understand your nitrite level is zero.

My questions are trivial, I know, but for me very important. I dont need to know any other parameters, including pH, but nitrification slows down at a pH of 6.5 and will stop below 6.0, the sponge filters wont work, so a massive water change is need.

And please take a look at this report about the Amazon water, old but pretty interesting.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/1964/0486/report.pdf

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Alfredo, I was using my own definition for zombie state. I didn't know there was a more universal definition for a discus zombie. :) Now for your questions.

1) What kind of food are they feeding, and in case of beef heart mix, what kind of minerals and vitamins do you add to the mix?

I actually feed a seafood mix, FDBWs, Beef Heart flake with pro-growth, spirulina flake, adult brine shrimp with and with spirulina. To the seafood mix I add a couple drops of human baby vitamins. I would have to look on the ingredient list for the minerals included.

2) Do you add to the water some kind of conditioner, salt or RO waste?

My water is strictly my well water which come straight from the Florida aquifer which is porous limestone so no salt, RO waste or conditioners are used.

3) I understand your water temperature is 82-84F.

Correct.

4) I understand your nitrite level is zero.

Correct.

[Second Hand Pat]

I may finally have these five little fish turned around. They are actually acting interested in food and went to bed with slightly rounded bellies. These fish are set back at least three months. This weekend should be a telling one. I know I am late on my picture update and will update tomorrow night.

[rdiscus]

Good to hear they're doing better and better Pat ... looking to see pictures of them

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Ryan, they still do not look like much, quite plain looking at this point.

[Dogvet06]

Im sure they will grow up beautifully! They have such lovely parents ;)