Completely stressed out...

[judijetson]

Really need some advice here, my discus are really stressing me out and I don’t know what to do. Short background info: I currently have 8 discus in a 135 gallon reef ready tank with 40 gallon sump. 1 discus is in qt (stressed/stringy white poo/this is now the third fish that has been bullied/one died 2nd day of qt/one I euthanized as she was not recovering after prazi/metro treatment).

I have the tank separated with egg crate to make three sections (one piece of egg crate next to the overflow boxes at each end of the tank). There is one pair at each end of the tank and one pair plus 2 single discus in the center section.

Last night as I was doing my tank maintenance the male (I’m assuming) of the pair that was in the middle section of the tank an ARC started to become extremely aggressive toward my APD, to the point where he literally pinned him to the bottom of the tank at the back wall. This continued to happen several times until I could free up one of egg crate pieces, shuffle my checkerboard pair into the center and move the ARC & AGSS pair to the end of the tank. I then removed the last piece of fake driftwood I had in the center as it seems anything I put in the tank immediately becomes a territory to be fought over. By the time all of this was taken care of and things started to settle ever so slightly I was left standing in front of my tank with tears streaming down my face just feeling helpless. Since no one here actually “knows” me I can tell you that crying and feeling helpless is not normal for me. At least not until I fell for discus ;)

Possible options are:

1. I have talked to Kenny regarding the aggression and he thought as some others have that adding more discus “may” help. If I decide on that route here’s what I’m looking at:

It takes 4-6 weeks to cycle my 40 gallon qt tank (I just got that started yesterday) so if I order it won’t be until the beginning of May, add a couple weeks before shipping and then another 4-6 weeks for qt so that puts me at about the beginning of July before I can add more fish to the tank…
In the mean time I could add yet another piece of egg crate into the tank to separate the third pair leaving the 2 single fish together. Please note these two single fish aren’t exactly friendly to each other either, they don’t hang out together so that could make things even worse.

If I add discus I’m planning on purchasing minimum size of 6” so I could only reasonably fit four 6” fish in my qt tank. Once added to the main tank that brings me to 12 which is only one more discus than what I had when the spawning/bullying began. I’m hoping bigger will be better as two of the bullied fish were the smallest but I realize that is not always the case as my ARSG was 6-1/2”.

If adding more discus to the tank doesn’t help break up the aggression I’m back to where I started…stressed…both fish and me.

2. Try to find someone in northeast PA that is an experienced Discus keeper who I could give my fish to that is able to house the 3 pairs and the remaining fish.

3. Try to find someone in northeast PA that is an experienced Discus keeper who I could give my non paired discus to and just keep the 6 paired discus.

My reservation with # 3 is what then happens if a pair separates? Plus, I don’t see where this reduces any of the aggression as they would have to remain in the 135 gallon tank. I don’t have the room/option to house several pair tanks in my house.

This morning when I came downstairs to feed them I noticed a nice batch of eggs on the overflow box from the pair I had to move from the center of the tank to the end so it looks like I wasn’t the only one not getting much sleep last night :p

I don’t really have any one else to turn to for help with this locally so I’m reaching out for other options or opinions on the ones I listed…

Update for this evening - everyone in the center of the tank seem to be getting along much better. I don't know if removing the fake driftwood helped but at least there are no territories to squabble over. All the fish in the center were active and eating really well and the couple behind the egg crate were busy tending their eggs.

[OC Discus]

Judi,

Sounds like things are working out. Let me say up front, I'm not a discus expert, so I'm not offering advice. I am curious about a few things.

1) What sizes and strains do you have?
2) What size were they when you got them?
3) Were they from the same source?
4) How long have they been together?

Let the experts confirm or refute what I'm about to suggest before you take any action, but it sounds like you are not happy with your setup. You have wound up with 3 or 4 pairs and really don't want to breed. You can possibly find someone willing to drive to your location and buy the fish if they are proven pairs. You might be happier with a group of fish from a single source, say 4" that have grown up together and can continue to grow together. In my experience, fish that have grown up together can be more tolerant of each other than adult fish put together. I may be wrong about adult discus getting along better once they reach full adult size if they have grown up together. I just wonder, if you added your fish as adults, from different sources, if you would be happier with a group of 10-12 young adults the same size from the same source. Maybe someone can confirm or deny if this would make a more harmonious group, or if deadly aggression is inevitable in any tank of adult discus. Mine are still young adults that have been together since 2-3", so I cant say what will happen when they all get 6-7" and start spawning.

[Rudustin]

I can't quite agree with OC. I have added many adults to my tanks and not had the problem. I'm not sure what the issue is but I'm glad that it is getting better. I have a 125 gallon and I have over a dozen discus in it. I give very frequent water changes and it has a large stump like piece of drift wood and have never had a problem like you have. Most of the discus in the tank are adults or sub adults. The biggest being more than 7.5 inches and the smallest about five inches. I cannot even imagine why you're having this problem but perhaps what you have done in removing the drift wood will quiet everyone down. Good luck and keep us posted.
Judi,

Sounds like things are working out. Let me say up front, I'm not a discus expert, so I'm not offering advice. I am curious about a few things.

1) What sizes and strains do you have?
2) What size were they when you got them?
3) Were they from the same source?
4) How long have they been together?

Let the experts confirm or refute what I'm about to suggest before you take any action, but it sounds like you are not happy with your setup. You have wound up with 3 or 4 pairs and really don't want to breed. You can possibly find someone willing to drive to your location and buy the fish if they are proven pairs. You might be happier with a group of fish from a single source, say 4" that have grown up together and can continue to grow together. In my experience, fish that have grown up together can be more tolerant of each other than adult fish put together. I may be wrong about adult discus getting along better once they reach full adult size if they have grown up together. I just wonder, if you added your fish as adults, from different sources, if you would be happier with a group of 10-12 young adults the same size from the same source. Maybe someone can confirm or deny if this would make a more harmonious group, or if deadly aggression is inevitable in any tank of adult discus. Mine are still young adults that have been together since 2-3", so I cant say what will happen when they all get 6-7" and start spawning.

[OC Discus]

Rufus,

Are any of your fish spawning? How do you handle the eggs, pairs, fry? Do you think Judy just needs 4-5 more fish and remove the dividers?

[judijetson]

OC, some good questions....

2 - Albino Red Covers
2 - Albino Golden Snakeskins
1 - Blue Diamond (deep blue gene)
1 - Albino Red Spotted Green (deceased)

Purchased from Kenny in I believe August 2013, sizes at time of purchase were 4-4-1/2"

2 - Checkerboard Turqs
2 - Penang Eruptions (1 deceased)
1 - Albino Pearl Diamond

Purchased from Kenny in September 2013, sizes at time of purchase were 5-5-1/2"

All fish are from the same source and have basically been together after qt since October 2013.

Very true, my setup is not what I thought it would be but all that is important is the health of the discus. It's not what I started with but quickly found out that I don't really give a darn about sand, plants or decorations, just happy healthy discus.. but I never factored in the spawning/aggression issues I'm experiencing now. The pairs aren't proven as there has not been any fry but the discus are also in with cardinal & rummy nose tetras so I really never expected any.

It is thought provoking and I'm looking forward to what others think about starting out with smaller discus and having them grow up together. I started with larger discus because well I could financially and as a first time discus owner I thought it would be safer to start with larger discus.

Lol, yes, wait til they get bigger and start spawning...my one ARC nearly knocked the python out of my hand when I got too close to his eggs once while doing a water change. Ten minutes later when I'm feeding them he's my best buddy and swimming against my hand to be pet...silly fish they are.

[judijetson]

Rufus, I was actually showing my husband pictures of your tank this morning and saying "why can't my discus get along like his!" lol!! Yes, removing the breeding cones and the last lingering fake driftwood seems to have helped so there is hope. Nothing to hide behind and nothing to claim territory over. Hopefully the situation will continue to improve and won't lose any more fish to bullying. I know there are lessons to be learned in this hobby, I just hate learning them at the expense of my fish.

I will keep you guys updated and hopefully others will chime in with their experiences..there's a lot of knowledge here and some really great people who are helping me along.

[OC Discus]

I think you answered my original question. You started out with young adults about 4.5" from one source and they are growing up together. I started mine at 2-3", and I'll tell you its a lot more work and a lot more can go wrong. I've heard others quote Hans saying more fish is the key to reducing aggression. Kenny's advice is probably spot on.

Ask Kenny what he thinks about 5 fish in the 40 g qt tank. It's only for a few weeks.

A couple things to think about, and ask Kenny about.

1) You can purchase live bacteria to cycle the tank, just like adding a seeded sponge. Tetra bought the patent to biospira, the primary beneficial bacteria in an aquarium, and sells it for freshwater as Tetra SafeStart. Most other products don't work, so I wouldn't even try them. But you could use this product to instantly cycle your tank at the time you add the fish.

2) John Nicholson has written that if he is buying fish from a source he trusts, the same source as his other fish, he may not do a full 6 week quarantine. You could send him a pm and ask his opinion about your situation.

I've seldom heard sd members recommend TSS, but they do recommend seeded sponges. It may be that few have actual experience with it, as it is a relatively new product. It seems to me the risk of disease or parasites is greater from a seeded sponge than using TSS. I've used TSS numerous times and never lost a fish due to cycling issues. You just need to test parameters daily and do frequent water changes.

Good luck. Hope things settle down soon so you can enjoy your fish.

BTW- How do others with large tanks handle the aggression of spawning in the display tank?

[Miamiheat]

Hi,
i know exactly what you are going through as i just went through a period where i ended up with 3-4 pairs and started separating them: otherwise it's havoc.
I started in this hobby October 2013 and thought adults were easier => today.. - except for one pair that i'd like to breed - i realise it is more fun for me to grow my small ones: first the satisfaction to see them grow, secondly you get them used to you and your water and your habits. I lost 3 big wilds and a big silver pigeon in a week and it was suggested to me they did not adapt well to my water (meanwhile i had 8 more fish in the same tank that are still doing great). Small ones may seem delicate but you can get them to adapt. The level of aggression differs with the fish. I have a red confirmed pair that spawned and had wigglers a few times in main tank. althought they protected the cone they chased the other very softly. I was sold another pair, never seen eggs, but they have been bullying all fish around them in 2 different tanks.
If you cant have more tanks and if you are not interested in breeding sell the pairs and get some young fish.
best of luck.

[musicmarn1]

i feel for you so much - ill let the experts guide you but i have been through it myself, had two issues for my own set up one was water quality and not enough enrichment in the tank that caused one community (discus only) bullying spree and then the second batch i got were bigger in a 125 i had 11 discus and never had a single solitary issue i got them all at once instead of in stages like the first batch. then my last bullying was just because a n established group dynamic changed and its totally resolved now - oh and when i got pairs forming i pulled them out into their own tanks which was a pain when you dream of a larger community lol !! but they don't spawn in my well water so its fine by me it was just a surprise for me too and i feel for you totally.

Best of luck !

[Rudustin]

Rufus, I was actually showing my husband pictures of your tank this morning and saying "why can't my discus get along like his!" lol!! Yes, removing the breeding cones and the last lingering fake driftwood seems to have helped so there is hope. Nothing to hide behind and nothing to claim territory over. Hopefully the situation will continue to improve and won't lose any more fish to bullying. I know there are lessons to be learned in this hobby, I just hate learning them at the expense of my fish.

I will keep you guys updated and hopefully others will chime in with their experiences..there's a lot of knowledge here and some really great people who are helping me along.
Hi Judi, I must be very lucky. I've had spawning go on in my big tank that you were so complimentary about and believe it or not there have been very little serious problems. I currently have a blue diamond and a dark angel that are cleaning surfaces and I may put them into a breeding tank on their own. I think you have solved the problem. I remember I briefly put in a breeding cone in the display tank some time ago and there were some rather serious skirmishes but I removed it and now there is no problem. I hope all goes well from now on. Yes, there are lessons to learn and I have learned them the hard way in the past. I'm still learning. For me the less I do with the tanks the better the fish get along. I do water changes of course but I basically don't fret over the fish a lot. Something I used to do a lot and to no avail. I think it takes time to get a balance in all the tanks of which I have five. Take care and good luck. Rufus

[judijetson]

OC, I emailed Kenny today and asked about the number of fish (size wise) that can be quarantined in the 40 gallon along with the length of qt since I purchased all the fish from him. Previously I purchased seeded sponges from Kenny but still had to do 2 50% pwc's per day to be safe. I also ordered a bottle of the Tetra Safe Start just in case.

Miamiheat, yep you know my pain...it's been quite the ordeal but hopefully things will work out in the end for me and the discus. I would consider selling the pairs if I was absolutely positive of the buyers experience but it my area that appears to be very limited. I'm the only person I know of that has discus, pet stores, even privately owned don't even stock them any where near where I live.

Marnie, can you tell me more about the water quality issues you had in regard to the enrichment? I tested my TDS recently and came up with a 130 but I haven't yet had the time to research exactly where that puts me in terms of water quality envirnment. Ph out of my tap is about 7.2 and my KH is 2 GH is I think if I remember a 6 or less.

Rufus, I wish you could spread some of that luck my way lol! Right now the only things I have in the tank are the discus, cardinal & rummy nose tetras and 6 corys (had 15 but my one ARC likes to kill them...ugh. It seems removing any type of territory (breeding cones, driftwood) they can fight over has been the right move.

I moved my one Penang into a qt tank today, he had been separated by egg crate due to bullying and stopped eating then I saw the dreaded white stringy poop. I was going to remove the egg crate but honestly the 6 discus are doing better with less room to spread out, I haven't seen any aggression other than the normal pecking on occasion. The other pair is still separated since the male is extremely aggressive and they are guarding eggs.

Hopefully I'll have better luck treating this Penang, he's a bit smaller than the others but really sweet and of course is my favorite...

[aquadon2222]

To paraphrase a section from Hans' helpful information brochure:

"Discus should be kept in groups of at least 10 fish (unless paired and breeding). In smaller groups, dominant fish may attack weaker fish and prevent them from feeding."

You've got a nice sized tank and should be able to comfortably add add a few more. Might be worth a try, and it's always fun to buy fish!

[judijetson]

aquadon222, thank you, yes I will be adding more fish. I did start out with 11 in tank but lost 2 to the bullying and me being a newbie I did not treat the issue quick enough. I have one Penang in qt right now and started treating with metro last night. If all goes well I will be adding 4-5 more discus and hopefully will be able to add the Penang back to the tank after he recovers.

btw, I checked out the pictures of your tank and all I can say is WOW!! Stunning.

[Rudustin]

Rufus,

Are any of your fish spawning? How do you handle the eggs, pairs, fry? Do you think Judy just needs 4-5 more fish and remove the dividers?Hi OC, Sorry been busy with my fish, parrots, cats work so haven't been able to reply right away. Yes, my fish do spawn in the community display tank. I have to admit that I don't mix types. For instance all of Kenny's fish are in a separate tank, and Hans' fish are in another tank and Chicago Discus fish are in another tank. For the first time I am going to combine Rafflesias with San Merahs and Snow Whites in one tank. It is an experiment because so many breeders have suggested not to mix fish of different breeding stock with others. No one has told me not to but they told me to " be very careful." So, with that said I have been very careful to keep Stendker, separate from Forrest, from Chicago imports. Until now. This week, as a matter of fact later today when I do a water change on all the tanks I will be combining for the first time. I'm not sure about why I don't get serious battles in my tanks but that may very well be why. I'll see shortly. I have been home for a few days and have observed my joining a 6.5 Snow White with Two 5.5 San Merahs and all seems to be okay at the moment. I have a Fire Red pair that spawn almost every other week in a tank of other discus and I now have a Blue Diamond and a Dark Angel attempting to breed in my 125. Yes, there are skirmishes but not that bad. As for Judi. I wish you some of my luck with the peace of your tank. Best Regards. Rufus

[OC Discus]

Rufus. Can you post some tank shots with pics of those that are spawning.


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