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View Full Version : new to discus... wondering why mine wont eat!



charrr89
06-24-2014, 12:57 AM
Hello, ive been lurking for a few days now... just got my first 2 discus 4 days ago... im worried! poor guys havent eatten yet. ive kept tempts between 79-83 degrees.... daily water change... http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/24/uhybu2uh.jpg

tank:
55 gallon i used my water from my 60p planted tank to set up this tank... Long story short i had to sell my tank in order to buy a bigger tank, so i had no time to cycle or prep.

my discus are Royal Blues from Segrest Farms. im not sure what other info is needed but i am very worried aND seeking as much advice as possible! thanks

trungnguyen
06-24-2014, 04:17 AM
How much of water do you change daily?
How big are your discus?
What do you feed them?
Discus should be kept as a group of 6 and up...you should get more discus, so they can feel more comfortable. However, let's find out what happened with your tank set up and water condition.
You can fill out the questionare forms, so members could have a better ideas about your tank and provide helps


Trung.

LeeAberdeen
06-24-2014, 08:38 AM
It's a bit weird you wanting help for your fish not eating - then not mentioning what you've been trying to feed them? My first point of contact would be with whoever you got them from, to check what they were feeding them. You can then match your food to what they've been used to, because it might be that the combination of a new environment and new foods is a bit too much for them at the moment. If for example they've been eating nothing but beefheart, and then suddenly all they're getting is bloodworm which they've never seen before, you could understand how that might affect them. You're right to be concerned, but four days without food is really nothing for discus - I had one recently which I never saw eat for a month, and other owners will tell you similar stories.

Two discus is not a good number, but you'd want to sort out this problem before adding any new ones. For a tank that size, I'd go for five or six, which would make them feel much more comfortable. It might even be that that's part of the problem, because it's far from ideal.

Also, I'd turn up the temperature, and go for more like 86, certainly not 79 for discus. Oh, and keep up the water changes with the uncycled tank - I'm hoping they're VERY big water changes, because they'll need to be because of your lack of beneficial bacteria. Again, that could be your problem if you're not changing something approaching 100% with your water changes which, I understand, is the only way to go with an uncycled tank.

Good luck.

John_Nicholson
06-24-2014, 08:51 AM
Lots of ground to cover here. Best temp for discus is 82. They do better in groups of 6 or more. It is usually better to get quality discus instead of cheap discus. When you get discus from someone like segrest you are rolling the dice. You might get decent discus and you might not. Sounds like maybe you rushed into this thing a little. The golden rules for discus are as follows......

1. Keep the water clean. Most do this with daily water changes.
2. Keep it warm. 82 is the place to be.
3. Feed a high quality/high protein food.
4. Get quality stock, Buying cheap discus usually means that you are buying sick discus that you have no chance of raising.
5. They are cichlids and as such they will fight some. Having at least 6 will help spread out the problem.
7. Be careful mixing fish from different sources. It is always best to use proper quarantine procedures.
8. Don't listen to everyone on the net.....some are idiots.

-john

Discusdude7
06-24-2014, 10:00 AM
Lots of ground to cover here. Best temp for discus is 82. They do better in groups of 6 or more. It is usually better to get quality discus instead of cheap discus. When you get discus from someone like segrest you are rolling the dice. You might get decent discus and you might not. Sounds like maybe you rushed into this thing a little. The golden rules for discus are as follows......

1. Keep the water clean. Most do this with daily water changes.
2. Keep it warm. 82 is the place to be.
3. Feed a high quality/high protein food.
4. Get quality stock, Buying cheap discus usually means that you are buying sick discus that you have no chance of raising.
5. They are cichlids and as such they will fight some. Having at least 6 will help spread out the problem.
7. Be careful mixing fish from different sources. It is always best to use proper quarantine procedures.
8. Don listen to everyone on the net.....some are idiots.

-john

Rule #9:
Always listen to john, he knows what he is doing.

charrr89
06-24-2014, 02:05 PM
awesome replies i appreciate it! i didnt know too much i just figured i wanted a discus.. its my favorite fish.. but when i started reading more and more i starter to feel like an idiot. but now i know hopefully i can figure them out because they are very beautiful and have actually started swimming around my tank :)

charrr89
06-24-2014, 02:06 PM
by the way, because i got 2 from segrest.. should i get the other 3 from segrest also?

John_Nicholson
06-24-2014, 02:17 PM
Do you feel like throwing good money after bad? I know that sounds harsh but their are too many people selling good discus to by bad discus. You will be miles ahead if you cull those two, bleach everything and start over with healthy quality fish. I am sure that does not sound good but it is the best suggestion that I can give you.

-john

DiscusLoverJeff
06-24-2014, 02:24 PM
If you get more discus, you will need a quarantine tank (20 gal preferred). You do not want to risk combining them with the 2 you already have. The forum has some great sponsors selling discus. Where are you located? Maybe someone here lives near you that breeds discus.

LeeAberdeen
06-24-2014, 03:29 PM
Do you feel like throwing good money after bad? I know that sounds harsh but their are too many people selling good discus to by bad discus. You will be miles ahead if you cull those two, bleach everything and start over with healthy quality fish. I am sure that does not sound good but it is the best suggestion that I can give you.

-john

Why would he kill fish when he doesn't know there's anything wrong with them? He just said above they're starting to swim around his tank, with the implication they're getting better. You said yourself above that it's "rolling the dice" but, despite him saying they're improving, you assume he's rolled a 'one' and they're bad fish which immediately need killing? More than that, everything needs sterilising and he needs to "start over"? He came on here for help because his fish aren't eating, which could be for any manner of reasons, and maybe not one which requires a death sentence. Clearly you have a beef about fish not bought from one of your favoured sources, and while I understand the need to buy healthy fish A) You don't know they're not healthy B) He's bought them, and while he can follow your advice in future, it's unhelpful to not deal with the situation he's in now.

Obviously my view will count for nothing in your eyes though, and you'll repeat your mantra about being very experienced, which clearly makes everything you say right and unquestionable. Maybe, though, you should think back to when you first started this hobby, had more compassion and tried to help the fish instead of immediately resorting to the easy option of a quick ice bath. If that's your "best suggestion", I pity you.

DiscusLoverJeff
06-24-2014, 03:39 PM
Lee,

Sometimes advice, good or bad is not always going to be accepted by everyone. People are entitled to their opinion. Lets just stay on track by guiding Charr in the right direction.

LeeAberdeen
06-24-2014, 03:50 PM
Lee,

Sometimes advice, good or bad is not always going to be accepted by everyone. People are entitled to their opinion. Lets just stay on track by guiding Charr in the right direction.

I'll defend his right to an opinion until my dying breath, I just happen to disagree, which is my opinion. I think that's the 'wrong direction' until at least more facts have been established. It might be that it's ultimately the best option, but it was too facile a conclusion to reach so quickly.

musicmarn1
06-24-2014, 04:24 PM
welcome Charr ! they look quite pretty from what i see. i did start with seagrest farms and i now wouldnt do it again BUT id call the supplier and ask what they feed there and feed the same thing, so you can slowly get them on a better diet :) we love new hobbyists and all want you to enjoy your fish !

unfortunately thats a big tank for so few discus and they are probably feeling quite lonely can seagrest give you more from the same batch?

also we normally here paint the underside bottom of our tanks to make them feel less scared of reflections, since they are young i would not use sand so it will have to do for now since they are in there.

getting more fish, feeding the same food they were used to and making sure to learn here what successful hobbyists use, like tetra color granules AND freeze dried black worms, beef heart mix (you have to learn how to get fish to eat it and you need a really good clean beefheart mix)

blood worms are like candy, they can get the fish eating but are not nutritious so i avoid them but you can make your choice there about that lots of people do use them

water changes are GOOD so well done there, best bet is to get a few more discus they hate being in small groups i have found that out the hard way too. they can pine and fast themselves until they cant recover. i would offer food an hour after the lights go on vacum out uneaten food 20 mins later keep offering it.

runninlow
06-24-2014, 04:25 PM
Charr, give them a bit more time they most likely just need to settle down, also form the looks of it they seem pretty small and the tank is pretty big. Ive scan through alot of pages on here and with just 2 of them in that big tank they can get lost and freak themselves out. i would suggest you get more as what everyone is saying like 6 of them or so just so they can school around. whoever you get them from is up to you. qaulity or not you will slowly learn how to mess around and raise the discus you have, i suggest you just keep what you have and get what you can afford, trust me since your new.... losing a $100 fish can and will break you.

I would just like to add that even though its nice for the more knowlegdable people to chime in on issues, it really is disturbing that once a new person "like me" or "whoever" posts up discus from another vendor, they all of sudden tell us to get rid of them and purchase from forum sponsors. I would like to say " Of course we would love too, but we didnt even know that there was people out there that had quality discus like them."..also please it would be nicer if you can just say "maybe later on in the future when you get everything down and the discus you have arent dieing or havent die yet...then purchase your new discus from forum sponsors." I can say alot more but its ok.. ill leave it at.

anyways Charr, keep up the good work and be sure to search if you have any questions, if you really cant find what your looking for then ask.

John_Nicholson
06-24-2014, 04:41 PM
I have seen it a thousand times. Some good hearted person gets stuck with crappy fish. They then spend the next several months fighting all sorts of problems that never should have happened. They spend large amounts of money on medications, water changes, and food just to end up loosing the fish in the long run. All I am trying to do is to save her lots of money and lots of frustrations. If they are going to have any success they are going to have to get some more fish. Money is going to have to be spent. In my opinion it may as well be spent in the correct direction.

-john


Why would he kill fish when he doesn't know there's anything wrong with them? He just said above they're starting to swim around his tank, with the implication they're getting better. You said yourself above that it's "rolling the dice" but, despite him saying they're improving, you assume he's rolled a 'one' and they're bad fish which immediately need killing? More than that, everything needs sterilising and he needs to "start over"? He came on here for help because his fish aren't eating, which could be for any manner of reasons, and maybe not one which requires a death sentence. Clearly you have a beef about fish not bought from one of your favoured sources, and while I understand the need to buy healthy fish A) You don't know they're not healthy B) He's bought them, and while he can follow your advice in future, it's unhelpful to not deal with the situation he's in now.

Obviously my view will count for nothing in your eyes though, and you'll repeat your mantra about being very experienced, which clearly makes everything you say right and unquestionable. Maybe, though, you should think back to when you first started this hobby, had more compassion and tried to help the fish instead of immediately resorting to the easy option of a quick ice bath. If that's your "best suggestion", I pity you.

LeeAberdeen
06-24-2014, 05:28 PM
I have seen it a thousand times. Some good hearted person gets stuck with crappy fish. They then spend the next several months fighting all sorts of problems that never should have happened. They spend large amounts of money on medications, water changes, and food just to end up loosing the fish in the long run. All I am trying to do is to save her lots of money and lots of frustrations. If they are going to have any success they are going to have to get some more fish. Money is going to have to be spent. In my opinion it may as well be spent in the correct direction.

-john

Either I'm not making myself clear, or your centuries in this hobby give you the gift of foresight, because from someone merely saying their fish haven't eaten for a few days, you've managed to draw the conclusion that they have "crappy fish" which must be killed. Is that what your 12 years on this forum and 5,823 posts have taught you, how to ridculously overreact to a situation which will probably sort itself out in a few days and, indeed, is showing signs already of improvement? Is that your way of 'helping'? Do you have any other reasons for insisting on a death sentence - blowing the wrong-shaped air bubbles, perhaps, or fish looking at you in a funny way?

For someone so insistent on 'quality' fish, you might want to review your comments above, namely "It is usually better to get quality discus instead of cheap discus". If you have to qualify it with the word "usually", why the immediate insistence on the basis of one piece of information that these fish should be killed? Or do you just enjoy playing God? Blimey, with your "I have seen it a thousand times" spiel, you're even trying to sound like God.

John_Nicholson
06-24-2014, 05:47 PM
LOL.....I am sure your holier than though *** is correct....I will just sit here quietly on the sidelines and we will see how this pans out over the next few months.

-john

LeeAberdeen
06-24-2014, 06:23 PM
LOL.....I am sure your holier than though *** is correct....I will just sit here quietly on the sidelines and we will see how this pans out over the next few months.

-john

Great response. The quieter the better, for me, because that would mean you imparting less of your vile attitude towards defenceless creatures. Perhaps You could adopt a God-like omniscience on this one, observing from on high with Your all-knowing, all-seeing eyes, occasionally deigning to honour us with Your presence. Or, better still, You could use Your Godly intelligence to understand that however this "pans out over the next few months" is entirely secondary to the fact You want fish killed on the basis they're merely not eating for four days.

I see You're from Texas. Are You, perchance, in charge of the electric chair?

John_Nicholson
06-24-2014, 07:00 PM
"I see You're from Texas. Are You, perchance, in charge of the electric chair?"

If your dumb arse is sitting in it at the time then yes.

Now back to the posters orginal thread. I have given my honest opinion. I have seen so many well meaning people who have gone down the road that you are on. The vast majority of the time is ends poorly. I am not trying to tell you what to do. I am simply telling you what I would do if I was in your shoes. They are your fish and by all means do what you feel is right but would you do me a favor and keep us informed on how it goes. I hope that I am wrong and they turn out to be great fish but years of experience tells me that is unlikely. Don't let my opinion lead you but please don't let the self rightous animal rights wacko lead you either. You need to do what you think is best and I wish you luck and will continue to try and help regardless of which direction you decide to go.

-john

sdrexler078
06-24-2014, 07:02 PM
You need to relax. You have gotten off topic and for some reason have a grudge with john. As to helping the op I would listen to john as he has helped hundreds of people including myself. But I also have had fish not eat for 2 weeks when new I left them alone just continued water changes and they started eating.



Great response. The quieter the better, for me, because that would mean you imparting less of your vile attitude towards defenceless creatures. Perhaps You could adopt a God-like omniscience on this one, observing from on high with Your all-knowing, all-seeing eyes, occasionally deigning to honour us with Your presence. Or, better still, You could use Your Godly intelligence to understand that however this "pans out over the next few months" is entirely secondary to the fact You want fish killed on the basis they're merely not eating for four days.

I see You're from Texas. Are You, perchance, in charge of the electric chair?

LeeAberdeen
06-24-2014, 07:14 PM
You need to relax. You have gotten off topic and for some reason have a grudge with john. As to helping the op I would listen to john as he has helped hundreds of people including myself. But I also have had fish not eat for 2 weeks when new I left them alone just continued water changes and they started eating.

If you think telling someone to kill their fish because they haven't eaten for a few days is 'helping', you have a bizarre definition of the word. You say your fish didn't eat for two weeks once - would it have been 'helpful' for him to have given you the advice he's giving this poster, to kill them?

I'm not the one being abusive and calling people a "dumb ***", I'm just giving my opinion which you've construed as a "grudge". But, apparently, him being abusive, as above, is him being 'helpful' in your eyes? Why don't you tell him "to relax" or, alternatively, if you're going to be so sycophantic, just keep your opinion to yourself as "you have gotten (sic) off topic". If I need your advice on how to conduct myself, I'll ask for it.

LeeAberdeen
06-24-2014, 07:21 PM
"I see You're from Texas. Are You, perchance, in charge of the electric chair?"

If your dumb arse is sitting in it at the time then yes.

Now back to the posters orginal thread. I have given my honest opinion. I have seen so many well meaning people who have gone down the road that you are on. The vast majority of the time is ends poorly. I am not trying to tell you what to do. I am simply telling you what I would do if I was in your shoes. They are your fish and by all means do what you feel is right but would you do me a favor and keep us informed on how it goes. I hope that I am wrong and they turn out to be great fish but years of experience tells me that is unlikely. Don't let my opinion lead you but please don't let the self rightous animal rights wacko lead you either. You need to do what you think is best and I wish you luck and will continue to try and help regardless of which direction you decide to go.

-john

Hmm, well my "dumb arse" has spotted numerous errors in your post above, so I wonder what that makes you? "Posters", for example, is a possessive, so requires a possessive apostrophe. "Well meaning people" is a compound adjective so requires a hyphen between the first two words. I could go on but, being so much more intelligent than me, you no doubt know all this, just as You know everything.

"I hope that I am wrong" - come on, just how likely is that?

Second Hand Pat
06-24-2014, 08:06 PM
Hmm, well my "dumb arse" has spotted numerous errors in your post above, so I wonder what that makes you? "Posters", for example, is a possessive, so requires a possessive apostrophe. "Well meaning people" is a compound adjective so requires a hyphen between the first two words. I could go on but, being so much more intelligent than me, you no doubt know all this, just as You know everything.

"I hope that I am wrong" - come on, just how likely is that?

Lee, John is not giving bad advice and anyone who has been in the hobby a while knows culling is part of the hobby. Starting with low quality and possible sick stock is quite often huge waste of money and frustration resulting in a need to replace the fish.

So please take a moment to breath, think and take a chill pill.

nc0gnet0
06-24-2014, 08:21 PM
I have seen it a thousand times. Some good hearted person gets stuck with crappy fish. They then spend the next several months fighting all sorts of problems that never should have happened. They spend large amounts of money on medications, water changes, and food just to end up loosing the fish in the long run. All I am trying to do is to save her lots of money and lots of frustrations. If they are going to have any success they are going to have to get some more fish. Money is going to have to be spent. In my opinion it may as well be spent in the correct direction.

-john

+1


FYI,

Has it ever occurred to a few of the ***** posting to this thread that John might actually be aware of the reputation of the source from which the discus of the OP have came? Discus do better in groups of 5 or more. It's already been established it is best not to mix sources, especially if one of those sources is questionable. Considering Segrest's past, the fact that issues are already occurring, might I ask Mr. Aberdeen what the best course of action taking might be?

Crunchy
06-24-2014, 09:12 PM
Sigh I wonder what makes people get worked up so fast. In the grand scheme of things, maybe culling and starting over is the way to go. There have been posts here and elsewhere documenting how some folks spent hundreds of $$$ on meds, backbreaking daily water changes, and many weeks to save 2 ill fishes from bad stock, just to see them die nonetheless and probably giving up on the hobby. They are cute fish, but technically one discus life is worth a tetra life. If you can bear to eat salmon, culling isn't morally that worse. Even though somebody like me will never advise on the cull, it takes real courage & experience to dare to give the cold facts to somebody.

Larry Bugg
06-24-2014, 09:53 PM
I'll defend his right to an opinion until my dying breath, I just happen to disagree, which is my opinion. I think that's the 'wrong direction' until at least more facts have been established. It might be that it's ultimately the best option, but it was too facile a conclusion to reach so quickly.

If you think he has his right to his opinion they why did you start attacking John and his reputation????? Defending your own opinion is one thing but attacking the individual that has a different opinion from you is another. You crossed the line when you did that.

Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 04:38 AM
U people are funny on here... i made some popcorn so please continue lol... some of u extreme hobbiest takes this hobby to a nother level haha but like most of the sensitive people said get a nother 4 or 5, they hopefully will purk up in a school of them, feed healthy food and loads of water changes per day... i was stuborn in the beggining with all the water changes everybody was recomending but after each change my fish seem more happy and move around allot more with new zest for life and food haha give the tank a 70% water change and add MORE fish :) and have a look what happens :)

charrr89
06-25-2014, 05:55 AM
I have seen it a thousand times. Some good hearted person gets stuck with crappy fish. They then spend the next several months fighting all sorts of problems that never should have happened. They spend large amounts of money on medications, water changes, and food just to end up loosing the fish in the long run. All I am trying to do is to save her lots of money and lots of frustrations. If they are going to have any success they are going to have to get some more fish. Money is going to have to be spent. In my opinion it may as well be spent in the correct direction.

-john

thank u for referring to me as a HER i appreciate it. and i will look into finding local breeders... possibly getting some help. thanks for all the info you guys have shared!

fishlee
06-25-2014, 06:25 AM
Wow its all kicking off in this thread. Culling is needed at times. Ive done it with discus " they dont eat, dont grow and are always sick " but yours may well still be settling in. You said you used tank water from your old tank... Not needed. did you cycle your new tank? if not add tss or atleast an ammonia lock if you have a ph over 6.9. Try and get them used to you, Dont ware dark cloths, start them off on live or frozen foods, turn the temp to 86. If using a pellet soak it first.

LeeAberdeen
06-25-2014, 06:26 AM
Lee, John is not giving bad advice and anyone who has been in the hobby a while knows culling is part of the hobby. Starting with low quality and possible sick stock is quite often huge waste of money and frustration resulting in a need to replace the fish.

So please take a moment to breath, think and take a chill pill.

You're missing the point entirely. It's very simple - he's made his 'assessment' to kill fish on the basis of one piece of information, merely that they haven't eaten for four days. Added to that, he even persisted with that advice after the poster indicated the fish were improving. Can you not understand that simple point? I realise culling is part of the hobby, but to do it on that basis is wrong. You say it's not "bad advice" when you can't possibly judge that. It might be, it might not, so why not try to help the fish instead of resorting to killing them as a first option?

You say "Starting with low quality and possible sick stock" when you don't know either. How do you possibly know that from what's been said? Why not deal with the facts instead of jumping to far-reaching conclusions?

fishlee
06-25-2014, 06:38 AM
Lee is right you know. Just becasuse a fish hasnt eaten for a few days you shouldnt kill it because "john" says so lol.

LeeAberdeen
06-25-2014, 06:40 AM
If you think he has his right to his opinion they why did you start attacking John and his reputation????? Defending your own opinion is one thing but attacking the individual that has a different opinion from you is another. You crossed the line when you did that.

Very selective in your recollection in your sycophantic response. I've been called a "dumb arse" and an animal rights whacko by him, but haven't resorted to any name calling, yet there's no mention of him "attacking the individual"? An opinion includes the right to 'attack', yet your post seems to imply they're mutually exclusive? That's a bizarre notion. Also, you've started making things up, such as me besmirching his reputation, which wasn't even mentioned? I said he would use his experience to belittle differing opinions, which is exactly what he's done. You need to read what's actually been said instead of cosying up to your mate.

Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 06:58 AM
I feel killing a fish is animal abuse if u have to just kill it... if its deformed or is on the brink of death then kill, but keep doing what u are doing with 50%+ water changes per day and get more fish it will help, most in group would say great that u went with a BB tank. New fish can go a while without eatting so i know u are getting on edge but ride it out they just stressed from the change and because there is only 2 of them in such a huge tank

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

John_Nicholson
06-25-2014, 07:04 AM
Ok this has nothing to do with the fact that they are not eating. If ya'll want to pick apart what I write that is fine but as people who let emotions rule their lifes often do you have missed the mark but a long way. I don't care if the fish are eating or not eating. The problem is they have 2 fish, they need at least 6. So how do you sovle that problem. Do you advise them to get 4 fish from a good source? Doing so will eventually expose them to whatever the other 2 fish have. Do you suggest that they buy some more low quality fish segrest? I would hate to do that. Just like I hate it when people "rescue" fish from a bad LFS. Sending those types of operations your money just encourages them to keep selling discus. Now I don't think LeeAberdeen is a bad person but I do think they are misguided. They have not been here since the place started. They have not seen all of the other people that have gone done this exact road. They did not understand why I made the suggestion that I made. I posted exactly what I would do if I was in their situation. I do think we are at different points in our discus journey. I do beleive they put a much higher value on the life of an individual discus than I do. As someone that has bred tens of thousands of discus through the years I have probably culled more than most on here will ever own, probably more than most will ever even see nin person. That is how I produce quality stock. I could sell the low quality ones to new people but I will let segrest do that so we have topics to debate here on simple.

-john

Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 07:07 AM
Ps this forum is very selective with who they hang out with and talk to... like in highschool all the popular jock football players hung out together and the rest are idiots so be warned the admin and long time discus keepers are those bullies in the forum snd its their way or no way so dont take mind of them if they are being bit harsh... only way u will learn how to look after your fish is by listening to the good and block out some of the crap they talk about culling ens... i know people who have had great success with their fish and having them just for show and the look of them without doin some crazy stuff people suggest on here. Just smile and wave and just read up on all the stickies and do what got told on there to help you out on improving your discus fish experience... ive stopped asking for help and started asking questions instead and read old post from other people that had the same problem as me and so i learn... :)

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Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 07:13 AM
Oh and john knows a **** load but he can be direct... but he looking at the whole story from a breeders side of things and im thinking u just want advice just how to get them nice and eating not worried if they gold winning discus

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Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 07:16 AM
I always enjoy Johns comments lol and feel that his experiance has made him know more than what ill ever know... ive seen some of his advice to people that was great advice that helped other people out but he direct and doesnt beat around the bush. But he should give u a option B as a casual discus keeper

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LeeAberdeen
06-25-2014, 07:32 AM
Ok this has nothing to do with the fact that they are not eating. If ya'll want to pick apart what I write that is fine but as people who let emotions rule their lifes often do you have missed the mark but a long way. I don't care if the fish are eating or not eating. The problem is they have 2 fish, they need at least 6. So how do you sovle that problem. Do you advise them to get 4 fish from a good source? Doing so will eventually expose them to whatever the other 2 fish have. Do you suggest that they buy some more low quality fish segrest? I would hate to do that. Just like I hate it when people "rescue" fish from a bad LFS. Sending those types of operations your money just encourages them to keep selling discus. Now I don't think LeeAberdeen is a bad person but I do think they are misguided. They have not been here since the place started. They have not seen all of the other people that have gone done this exact road. They did not understand why I made the suggestion that I made. I posted exactly what I would do if I was in their situation. I do think we are at different points in our discus journey. I do beleive they put a much higher value on the life of an individual discus than I do. As someone that has bred tens of thousands of discus through the years I have probably culled more than most on here will ever own, probably more than most will ever even see nin person. That is how I produce quality stock. I could sell the low quality ones to new people but I will let segrest do that so we have topics to debate here on simple.

-john

I don't think you're a bad person either - how could I, I don't know you. I do, however, find this blind insistence on killing a living creature disgusting. Again, above, we have: "Doing so will eventually expose them to whatever the other 2 fish have". John, can you not understand the oft-repeated point in this thread that YOU DON'T KNOW THEY HAVE ANYTHING. At the risk of repeating myself, all the poster has said is that they haven't eaten for a few days. I'm getting bored of saying it, so you must be tired of reading it, yet it still hasn't sunk in? As I've said above, along with another poster, I've had a fish not eat for a month and he was fine - I merely continued with good husbandry and that was enough, but if I'd followed your "good" advice he'd be dead now.

Before you bring up the point about the poster needing to buy four more fish which they can't add to these two, yes, you're right, but did you at any point attempt to find out if they have a quarantine tank they could put the other two in for a few weeks? No, instead you jumped to assumptions and brought down the gavel with outrageous haste.

I think you're letting a pre-occupation with otherwise good advice, namely to buy from a good source, block any form of attempt to help the poster with the real issue. Ultimately, that blinkered approach is a fish death sentence.

LeeAberdeen
06-25-2014, 07:37 AM
Ps this forum is very selective with who they hang out with and talk to... like in highschool all the popular jock football players hung out together and the rest are idiots so be warned the admin and long time discus keepers are those bullies in the forum snd its their way or no way so dont take mind of them if they are being bit harsh... only way u will learn how to look after your fish is by listening to the good and block out some of the crap they talk about culling ens... i know people who have had great success with their fish and having them just for show and the look of them without doin some crazy stuff people suggest on here. Just smile and wave and just read up on all the stickies and do what got told on there to help you out on improving your discus fish experience... ive stopped asking for help and started asking questions instead and read old post from other people that had the same problem as me and so i learn... :)

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Absolutely. I started this line of argument knowing I'd get jumped on by regulars desperate to maintain their clique and gain favour, but some things are more important than being popular.

MendoMan
06-25-2014, 07:41 AM
I'm with John 100%. So many people jump right in with no studying before hand and when the troubles start, which they will in short order, they don't want to take the advise they ask for. As far as the abuse, i'm headed to the coast and my boat right now to see if I can abuse a couple salmon.

Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 07:46 AM
I liked johns first post tho, that was very great post to get him started so go on what john and LeeAberdeen said on their first comments on this thread :)

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Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 07:49 AM
82 is best temp for discus maybe up to 84... 86 and up just help if your fish are bit sick, stressed or adjusting :)

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John_Nicholson
06-25-2014, 08:28 AM
Having a Q tank is great, but there are some issues that can take months and months to appear. They can remain hidden until some sort of stress causes the issue to surface. Do some research on cryptobia. You will find a problem that can hide for a very long time. I do not know of anyone that will Q them long enough to expose it. It has has a habit of showing up in low quality fish from cheap online resellers. Many years ago I got bit from a high quality fish from a quality source. I was able to save my stock but some of the people here on simple have not been so lucky. If you ever have to go and put down 30 or 40 fish because of a mistake you make then you will understand what I am saying. Sometimes it is better to cut your loses now then to compound the problem for later.

-john

John_Nicholson
06-25-2014, 08:29 AM
thank u for referring to me as a HER i appreciate it. and i will look into finding local breeders... possibly getting some help. thanks for all the info you guys have shared!

Sorry. Simple mistake on my part. Nothing implied in it. Just a mistake.

-john

Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 08:43 AM
He talking from experiance here :) i would never get it over my heart to put down 40 fish haha... was wondering could i take 100 fancy discus and throw them back into the wild and have them survive like in the amazon river where they supose to come from?

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LeeAberdeen
06-25-2014, 09:22 AM
Having a Q tank is great, but there are some issues that can take months and months to appear. They can remain hidden until some sort of stress causes the issue to surface. Do some research on cryptobia. You will find a problem that can hide for a very long time. I do not know of anyone that will Q them long enough to expose it. It has has a habit of showing up in low quality fish from cheap online resellers. Many years ago I got bit from a high quality fish from a quality source. I was able to save my stock but some of the people here on simple have not been so lucky. If you ever have to go and put down 30 or 40 fish because of a mistake you make then you will understand what I am saying. Sometimes it is better to cut your loses now then to compound the problem for later.

-john

"Sometimes it is better to cut your loses (sic) now then (sic) to compound the problem for later". I'll repeat myself AGAIN, in the vain hope you might listen, but with the probability you'll again ignore this simple point - you don't know there is a "problem" or any "losses" to cut. You're clearly not stupid, so the fact you continually ignore this fundamental point leads me to believe you've lost the argument and have to merely regurgitate your all-non-sponsor-sources-are-bad fixation as a diversionary tactic. That's your right, but my problem is that it leads to a mallet on the head for fish instead requiring the help you're too compassionless to even attempt to give.

John_Nicholson
06-25-2014, 09:35 AM
I hear you fine, but you are not hearing me. They need to buy some more fish fairly quick. How are you going to know if the 2 current fish are healthy? The only real way is to send one of them to a fish pathologist and have them kill and examine the fish. Pretty sure that is not going to happen here and even if it did it does not 100% mean that the other fish is healthy. We are starting from a point of unknowns. Neither of us know the real origin of the fish or if the fish are healthy. I am basing my opinion on the track record of fish from cheap online providers. The best predictor of future results are past results. Anything that you and I discuss here is speculation. I think the root of the problem is you have a real problem with anyone killing a fish. Starting from this point makes it very hard for us to agree on anything else that goes later in out discussion.

-john

Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 09:43 AM
Lol i think john and Lee gotta start their own thread called "agree to disagree" lol where they can have a debate about pros and cons of discus keeping lol come now lets just leave everything be and have a laugh, im trying to brake the ice here bit so bare with me lol take advice from everybody but dont kill your fish lol john just talking about past experiances and not telling u to do that just telling us from what he has learned... i wonder how discus tastes like??? Like hake or kingklip maybe after we cull the runts? Lol

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John_Nicholson
06-25-2014, 09:54 AM
You would be surprised by how many of us started with threads just like this one and then ended up becoming good friends.


-john

jsullins
06-25-2014, 10:28 AM
[I see You're from Texas. Are You, perchance, in charge of the electric chair?[/QUOTE]

We acctually use "The needle" here in Texas not the electric chair...It's more humane.

Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 10:30 AM
Yup but coming from South Africa we dont get the A grade discus like what u guys get unless you are willing to pay double than what u guys pay and my bank balance aint that big lol so i use what i can get down here when it comes to discus... we get some bad discus here... like if the exporter sees its going to sunny south africa and deside to send us the crap haha ai

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Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 10:33 AM
But then again some great imports but ill never pay the price for them... 2 fish is my salery per month haha

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DiscusLoverJeff
06-25-2014, 11:37 AM
One of the main concerns that is being addressed is the "source" of the discus. Many of the sources that sell discus online show you one picture and you get something totally different, runts mostly. What places will send you are the fish that good breeders would normally cull. And I believe that is one of the points being made.

Char, can you supply us with a few close-up pictures of the discus? Maybe then we can control the debate whether they are healthy or not.

Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 11:42 AM
Yup agree with discuslover lol... question sorry if its not my thread but i do 2 50% water chsnges per day after one another... so im basically doing a 75% water change or a 66.6% waterchange... sorry stupid question but better to ask while all the big boys are on this thread lol

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rickmiles
06-25-2014, 12:02 PM
I think this thread should be culled.

Rick M

nc0gnet0
06-25-2014, 12:23 PM
You would be surprised by how many of us started with threads just like this one and then ended up becoming good friends.


-john

No way!

:p

LeeAberdeen
06-25-2014, 01:50 PM
I hear you fine, but you are not hearing me. They need to buy some more fish fairly quick. How are you going to know if the 2 current fish are healthy? The only real way is to send one of them to a fish pathologist and have them kill and examine the fish. Pretty sure that is not going to happen here and even if it did it does not 100% mean that the other fish is healthy. We are starting from a point of unknowns. Neither of us know the real origin of the fish or if the fish are healthy. I am basing my opinion on the track record of fish from cheap online providers. The best predictor of future results are past results. Anything that you and I discuss here is speculation. I think the root of the problem is you have a real problem with anyone killing a fish. Starting from this point makes it very hard for us to agree on anything else that goes later in out discussion.

-john

One of the best predictors would, in fact, be the poster's indicatation the fish are better already, but that doesn't suit your argument so, again, you've chosen to ignore it. Instead, you assume they're ill on the basis of no evidence and say they must be killed. It's bizarre to assume they're unhealthy and ask for some sort of proof they're not. What kind of 'logic' is that? The reverse would be the standard model for any logical argument. The fact you're willing to have creatures killed on what you freely admit is "speculation" says more than I ever could about your callous attitude.

You know as well as I do that they don't "need to buy some more fish fairly quick", you're just trying to back up an erroneous point of view with nonsense now. Please don't treat me as if I'm stupid. Two discus is not ideal, admittedly, but to try to claim it's an urgent matter that must be addressed immediately is ridiculous. The two fish won't be killed by their lack of numbers, unlike your sledgehammer-to-crack-a-nut killing spree.

No, we're not "starting from a point of unknowns" because you, apparently, already know everything.

John_Nicholson
06-25-2014, 01:51 PM
LOL....ok buddy....I will go find a brick wall to talk to.

-john

nc0gnet0
06-25-2014, 02:02 PM
"Sometimes it is better to cut your loses (sic) now then (sic) to compound the problem for later". I'll repeat myself AGAIN, in the vain hope you might listen, but with the probability you'll again ignore this simple point - you don't know there is a "problem" or any "losses" to cut. You're clearly not stupid, so the fact you continually ignore this fundamental point leads me to believe you've lost the argument and have to merely regurgitate your all-non-sponsor-sources-are-bad fixation as a diversionary tactic. That's your right, but my problem is that it leads to a mallet on the head for fish instead requiring the help you're too compassionless to even attempt to give.

I am not quite sure why you keep missing the point here. John is not saying with absolute certainty that the fish are sick. Your whole argument is based upon the assumption that he needs to be so in order for his advice to be valid. That is not the case, not by a long shot. Therefore your counter argument is flawed in several regards.

Your both in agreement that more fish needs to be added so the discus currently in the tank can feel more at ease. Unless your suggesting that the OP purchase more discus from the same source, that presents the OP with a few issues you have yet to address:

1) she will need to purchase a QT tank, stand, heater, filter, light, etc. This cost alone will exceed the replacement value of the fish she currently has
2) In the interim, the 2 lonely discus are still lonely, the problem they are currently having may very well continue, and by the time the new fish are through the Quarantine process, irreparable harm will have occurred to the current discus. This now means that the OP might again have to purchase even more discus to get the stocking levels up to where they should be.
3) Even if the old fish still are alive when the new fish are through the Quarantine process, there is still a risk that when combined, problems will occur, discus get sick, and yet again more fish now need to be purchased and the process repeated.

In John's scenario, you flush the current fish, sterilize the tank, stock the tank from a reputable supplier, and your good to go. NO QT tank would be necessary in this scenario, the risks are minimal, and the OP is well on the road to being a happy successful discus hobbyist months before the scenario in which you present.

While what you suggest might work, what John suggests will cost the OP less, and has a lot less risk involved. This hobby is not absolute, to try to make arguments based on such is meaningless.

-Rick

pcsb23
06-25-2014, 02:08 PM
OK,

I am all for a good discussion BUT ... there are one or two personal attacks creeping in, so I'll give you all a choice.

Either keep it civil or go elsewhere.

If anyone wants to try me by posting any smart alec response to this, please do so. I am certain you will lose :)

Just so as everyone is clear

Keep it civil!

Thanks.

LeeAberdeen
06-25-2014, 02:19 PM
I am not quite sure why you keep missing the point here. John is not saying with absolute certainty that the fish are sick. Your whole argument is based upon the assumption that he needs to be so in order for his advice to be valid. That is not the case, not by a long shot. Therefore your counter argument is flawed in several regards.

Your both in agreement that more fish needs to be added so the discus currently in the tank can feel more at ease. Unless your suggesting that the OP purchase more discus from the same source, that presents the OP with a few issues you have yet to address:

1) she will need to purchase a QT tank, stand, heater, filter, light, etc. This cost alone will exceed the replacement value of the fish she currently has
2) In the interim, the 2 lonely discus are still lonely, the problem they are currently having may very well continue, and by the time the new fish are through the Quarantine process, irreparable harm will have occurred to the current discus. This now means that the OP might again have to purchase even more discus to get the stocking levels up to where they should be.
3) Even if the old fish still are alive when the new fish are through the Quarantine process, there is still a risk that when combined, problems will occur, discus get sick, and yet again more fish now need to be purchased and the process repeated.

In John's scenario, you flush the current fish, sterilize the tank, stock the tank from a reputable supplier, and your good to go. NO QT tank would be necessary in this scenario, the risks are minimal, and the OP is well on the road to being a happy successful discus hobbyist months before the scenario in which you present.

While what you suggest might work, what John suggests will cost the OP less, and has a lot less risk involved. This hobby is not absolute, to try to make arguments based on such is meaningless.

-Rick

I've already addressed that point above: "You know as well as I do that they don't "need to buy some more fish fairly quick", you're just trying to back up an erroneous point of view with nonsense now. Please don't treat me as if I'm stupid. Two discus is not ideal, admittedly, but to try to claim it's an urgent matter that must be addressed immediately is ridiculous. The two fish won't be killed by their lack of numbers, unlike your sledgehammer-to-crack-a-nut killing spree."

LeeAberdeen
06-25-2014, 02:21 PM
LOL....ok buddy....I will go find a brick wall to talk to.

-john

Fine by me, I'll do the same. Before you talk to your brick wall, though, I think you should assume it's structurally unsafe and have it pulled down.

It's safer that way...

nc0gnet0
06-25-2014, 02:32 PM
I've already addressed that point above: "You know as well as I do that they don't "need to buy some more fish fairly quick", you're just trying to back up an erroneous point of view with nonsense now. Please don't treat me as if I'm stupid. Two discus is not ideal, admittedly, but to try to claim it's an urgent matter that must be addressed immediately is ridiculous. The two fish won't be killed by their lack of numbers, unlike your sledgehammer-to-crack-a-nut killing spree."

Actually in my experience, with discus of that size, it is becoming an urgent matter to get them to eat. If they were large healthy adults, I might concur that the fish still had plenty of time. However, with what appears to be 3-31/2" fish, not eating for a period much longer than 2 weeks is by itself a reason to cull, and this is based on my personal experience, not something I have read.

And if it is not the lack of numbers that is making them uncomfortable, then what is it? Wouldn't that by itself at least point to an ailment of some kind? I have never purchased discus of that size from a sponsor and had this issue. Never.

The fact that the seller of these fish did not question the OP about her intentions, warn her that the fish would do much better in a larger group, has me questioning their integrity.

In the long run there are two very different arguments being made here, one from the point of view what is best for the fish, while the other is from the point of view on what is best for the owner.

-Rick

Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 02:39 PM
Ncogneto is right the seller is an idiot if they never explained that u need atleast 5-6.... do u have a small 20gallon tank to set up? If so put them in there and they will feel more at home than lost in a 55gallon and grow them out bit in there and get 4more

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DISCUS STU
06-25-2014, 03:32 PM
Try not to get discouraged. If the water parameters are good, assuming the fish are healthy, try some frozen blood worms to entice them. Most Discus usually eat this readily. You may want check the lighting to make sure it's not too strong, Discus are often skittish.

Two Discus, even small ones, may fight. Two larger ones may have one bully the other almost to death while often not letting the other one eat either. So groups of 5-6 are much better. Good luck!

DiscusLoverJeff
06-25-2014, 03:35 PM
In the long run there are two very different arguments being made here, one from the point of view what is best for the fish, while the other is from the point of view on what is best for the owner.

-Rick

Excellent point!

Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 04:52 PM
I like discus stu's comment aswell he is spot on and helpfull. Lighting plays a big role, put a volume control on your lighting if its really bright instead of waisting money on new lights that cost an arm and a leg while a brightness control or volume control like i call it haha cost way less

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Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 05:45 PM
Is it posible to keep two discus in a 29gallon grow out tank till they done qt them to see for sickness and... uhm growing them out to add with bigger discus?

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Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 05:46 PM
Or will u need 1 discus per 10gallon tank instead for qt and growing out?

If u get them at 3" will they do fine together in a 29gallon or better in 2 10gallons?

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charrr89
06-25-2014, 06:09 PM
Wow its all kicking off in this thread. Culling is needed at times. Ive done it with discus " they dont eat, dont grow and are always sick " but yours may well still be settling in. You said you used tank water from your old tank... Not needed. did you cycle your new tank? if not add tss or atleast an ammonia lock if you have a ph over 6.9. Try and get them used to you, Dont ware dark cloths, start them off on live or frozen foods, turn the temp to 86. If using a pellet soak it first.



That was a recommendation from another discus owner whom owns a shop that orders his fish from segrest... Mine were a special order so I had to pick it up directly from him when they arrived...

Anyways. I've heard a lot of good and bad about segrest... N the person I got mine from had also purchased his personal discus thru segrest and they are doing great so I thot it would be my leap of faith... I normally shop local If I can.... This was my accidental impulse buy. I was in to planted for 3 years and I wanted to get out of that hobby and finally try discus...I didn't think it was going to be this crazy. But for that I am sorry to my discus and myself... And everyone on the forums who got a bit worked up towards eachother. I'm glad I found you guys though! I'm not giving up on discus, I'll give my current ones a few more weeks.

John_Nicholson
06-25-2014, 06:57 PM
Even if these fish fail don't give up on discus. I am sure you can do it.

-john

Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 07:28 PM
Healthy discus can be so rewarding so dont give up cos once they are fully grown u will pat yourself on the back for all the constant care u gave them.

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Mikemeets
06-25-2014, 07:37 PM
Once u get into a cycle of doing work on them it becomes 2nd nature like bathing anx brushing your teeth lol i was freaked out a while ago with all the water changes and work involved... then i got use to it... how borring is my life haha me nursing blody fish the whole time like newborn babies haha but its fun thats y its a hobby and keeps me outta the pubs and at home out of trouble lol

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pgrhodes1
06-26-2014, 10:30 AM
I have seen it a thousand times. Some good hearted person gets stuck with crappy fish. They then spend the next several months fighting all sorts of problems that never should have happened. They spend large amounts of money on medications, water changes, and food just to end up loosing the fish in the long run. All I am trying to do is to save her lots of money and lots of frustrations. If they are going to have any success they are going to have to get some more fish. Money is going to have to be spent. In my opinion it may as well be spent in the correct direction.

-john

WOW, what a thread....LOL. As many of you know I no longer have Discus. I still access this site for all the wonderful information provided. John is ABSOLUTELY right. If I had followed his advise I would probably still have Discus. Instead I bought cheap Discus from a local pet store and spent months fighting all sorts of problems. I spent large amounts of money on medications, water changes, and food just to end up loosing the fish in the long run. The stress was AWFUL!! Someday I will have Discus again but you can bet I will do EXACLY as he says the next time. Good luck with your fish!!

charrr89
06-29-2014, 06:26 AM
WOW, what a thread....LOL. As many of you know I no longer have Discus. I still access this site for all the wonderful information provided. John is ABSOLUTELY right. If I had followed his advise I would probably still have Discus. Instead I bought cheap Discus from a local pet store and spent months fighting all sorts of problems. I spent large amounts of money on medications, water changes, and food just to end up loosing the fish in the long run. The stress was AWFUL!! Someday I will have Discus again but you can bet I will do EXACLY as he says the next time. Good luck with your fish!!

haha. i agree. if i hadnt found this forum i wouldnt have known how important water changes are. i was tempted to sell off these guys and just go back to owning a green scat...(closest i ever got to a discus when i was 11) he got as big as an appetizer plate (6"round) and i had to give him up because i was moving... ive had all types of fish.. black ghost.. cichlids...corys etc; discus is a completely new thing to me though. their beautiful and very peaceful compared to other cichlid..

and im hoping to purchase from dis forum within the month or 2..

aquadon2222
07-02-2014, 11:33 PM
First of all, it can take a week or two for fish to settle in and feel comfortable enough to eat - they can go many days without eating and will be just fine. If they still won't eat, call the dealer and ask what food the dealer fed the fish. Many use beef heart for its high protein content and rapid growth, so try that first.

aquadon2222
07-05-2014, 12:23 AM
I Am with you Lee Aberdeen....I don't agree with blind insistence of killing fish because they "don't look right"....it's a different philosophy. It is wasted effort trying to convince that your philosophy is right, but I agree with you.

aquadon2222
07-05-2014, 12:26 AM
I won't kill fish either. I'll let nature decide.