Open Discussion on the Future of the Disease Board....

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
Paul, Pat, and I have been discussing the way the Disease board operates and want some input from everyone. As you all know we have the disease board set up to be a place where people go to get help on their fish health issues. We feel that though this section can be a great place for that to happen, there are some issues that need to be addressed and possibly changes made to improve that section.

The main problem is one that has always plagued that section... and has to do with Member's and their experience levels. The Fact is that Sometimes members that are so very new to hobby try and offer advice there which makes it more confusing to the person getting help. There are also often times when really Bad and inappropriate advice is being given. This too takes away from the ability of our more experienced members to actually help someone. And then there are the cases where a member may have been in the hobby a long time, and they honestly think they know how to help someone, but sadly, they are clueless as to really what they are talking about.

Let me say this upfront..if we closed the section entirely to general posting I know we would have the complaints of some members that really like interacting in that section. Though I don't want to take away from the general forums enjoyments in participating there, that board is meant to be a way to help people with their discus illnesses..that is supposed to be its function, however we can meet that function best. Our goal for that section is to allow people to get the help they need the best way they can. It isn't necessary for that section to act as discussion board to do that...so we'll consider any changes to improve it we can, even one as drastic as this.


Some things we have talked about doing is limiting who can respond in that section to only certain individuals or those with X amounts of posts or years in the hobby. I know its restrictive, but it would help eliminate at least some of then issues we see.

Another thing we are looking at doing is possibly having a list of members that we approve as able to help there. The list would be based on what we see as people who have the experience to help and have demonstrated that..


So we would like to get your input on how we can improve that section of the forum and we wanted to open it up to discussion with you all before we acted on anything.

Thanks,
Al,

[William Palumbo]

Sounds good Al restricting the responses. Being in this hobby for so long I have been fortunate not to have to deal with a lot of disease/sickness, so I rarely offer help because most times I am clueless. My feelings would not be hurt. I feel there are a few qualified guys on here to help out, Rick being one of them, and Eddie if he was still active here. There is also PM's to exchange info privately, so it's not like no one can not be heard...Bill

[pcsb23]

The problem with offering help and advice via pm, is that the general membership don't get any value from that. It also ties up time of the person offering that advice, plus there is no opportunity for someone else to pipe up and say "Hey, I think that may not be right ..." imo this sort of advice via pm is the worst scenario.

I'm sure there is a way of managing the disease section where it serves it's purpose and acts as a resource for all discus keepers here. Whilst it sort of works as it is, it is also polluted with an awful lot of questionable advice.

One of my biggest bugbears in there is how many state something as a fact when in reality they read it somewhere and at best it is second info - I accept this happens in most areas - but when trying to treat sick animals the consequences can be somewhat more severe.

[nc0gnet0]

Another thing we are looking at doing is possibly having a list of members that we approve as able to help there. The list would be based on what we see as people who have the experience to help and have demonstrated that..

If I may play the devil's advocate here........

How would one go about getting approval if they were not initially allowed to post to the section? How are you going to be able to ascertain whether or not they have the knowledge you seek?

I know this may lead to some hard feelings, but perhaps you need to watch what is posted and start asking members to not post to the section if they continually give bad information?

Another issue that has come up in the past is people that post in the disease section get unsolicited private messages from certain users offering advice, and this can be an even more dangerous threat.

Perhaps and aptitude test should be compiled and an icon next to their username given to designate they have passed the test?

On a software level, how are you going to differentiate the new users not allowed to post advice, from the new users seeking advice (and allowed to post to the section)?

just a few random thoughts.......


-Rick

[brewmaster15]

On a software level, how are you going to differentiate the new users not allowed to post advice, from the new users seeking advice (and allowed to post to the section)?Thats the easy one Rick. We can set the section to allow this...the software is flexible in that regard.




How would one go about getting approval if they were not initially allowed to post to the section? How are you going to be able to ascertain whether or not they have the knowledge you seek? It would not be an easy thing to do, but I believe that Paul and I can make a fair assessment of someones experience level with a few communications.


I know this may lead to some hard feelings, but perhaps you need to watch what is posted and start asking members to not post to the section if they continually give bad information? we have tried that..The user in question took it to Pms.


Another issue that has come up in the past is people that post in the disease section get unsolicited private messages from certain users offering advice, and this can be an even more dangerous threat. We don't monitor/read pms...so we can't deal with this scenario unless someone reports it to us.

-al

[brewmaster15]

Perhaps and aptitude test should be compiled and an icon next to their username given to designate they have passed the test?
Its an interesting idea...something to consider...or a variation on it. I guess we could ask for individuals interested in helping in that section and test them.

[nc0gnet0]

Thats the easy one Rick. We can set the section to allow this...the software is flexible in that regard.

Now, I am not a software guy by any stretch of the imagination, and I can see how the software would allow the initial post, but would it also still allow follow up posts in the same thread by the new user?

...forgive my ignorance on the matter

[Larry Bugg]

I have always maintained that something different needs to be done in this section. Al's reasoning says it all. You will very rarely find me posting or giving advice in this section because I don't feel qualified. Too bad we can't rely on that with everyone but it just doesn't work out that way. In the past I have said that I would like to see something like Rick suggest with a notation by the username to denote a "Simply" trusted source. Of course this presents several problems. How does one become a trusted source? Does Simply take on some liability by doing this? Will the team members be readily available so quick response is available to those in need? A new user really does need a way to know who to trust.

[brewmaster15]

Now, I am not a software guy by any stretch of the imagination, and I can see how the software would allow the initial post, but would it also still allow follow up posts in the same thread by the new user?

...forgive my ignorance on the matter

Rick,
It would work like the old "university" section worked. member can start a thread and then reply in it only members belonging to a group we assign would be able to post as well...

[nc0gnet0]

Rick,
It would work like the old "university" section worked. member can start a thread and then reply in it only members belonging to a group we assign would be able to post as well...


perfect, I had forgotten all about that.

[Tictok]

I think this is an excellent idea. A vast majority of the questions posed for disease/sickness originates from those who are new to discus husbandry and therefore need guidance. There are many highly skilled, experienced individuals on this forum who are knowledgeable enough to give the medical advise needed; however there is another component to this ability to give advise that is needed:" identification". Regardless of the lack of skill on the part of the poster, the expert is able to give information that identifies with the level of experience that the member at that time possesses. This expert doesn't become frustrated "because they have heard this question hundreds of times" ( but patiently directs the new member to the stickies ( which I have seen Pat patiently do so many times :) and thank you Pat, this hasn't gone unnoticed). Is able to deal with the occasional or frequent ( however you wish to look at it) defensive, argumentative, or frustrating aspects of dealing with these types of questions with a certain "grace under pressure". It is advise given by an expert that is firm, confident ,fact- based and methodical( This is best exemplified by Paul- who is the ideal person for this, by the way. Like I first stated- an excellent idea.

[Rudustin]

I think the ideas are great. I agree with other OP's that I don't reply to any of the posts in the disease section because I don't feel qualified in anyway. I think a group of veteran discus keepers that are noted by the administrators of the forum is a great idea. When and if I have had a question about illness of a discus I have referred to the breeder. All well and good if you buy discus from a sponsor here but in many cases so many new members buy from unknown sources or LFS's and the forum is the most convenient and quick way to get advice.

[Skip]

Rick,
It would work like the old "university" section worked. member can start a thread and then reply in it only members belonging to a group we assign would be able to post as well...

Al... fantastic idea.. as soon as read the 1st part of ur post.. discus university popped in my mind..

I say go for it.. luv it

[rickztahone]

Great idea. I often see the same question posted over and over again in that section.

The risk that one takes by having a select few to respond to this specific section would be that they might wear thin after a while. How many members are we truly talking about here? I can really only think of a handful of members that have the knowledge to really help our fellow members.

With that in mind, you must remember that many of the people who post in that section are brand new members. If only a select few are able to respond, what happens when no one has seen the thread and that member doesn't get advice? Granted, no advice is better than bad advice, but some memembers might give up trying to get answers in a very short period of time.

My suggestion would be to have different levels of participants. However, the only way to do this would be some form of ranking system. How one would gain or lose ranks would have to be determined by Al and mods.

Lastly, hypothetically speaking, what if a member sees a discussion where another members discus are sick in the exact same way theirs was? However, they do not have the proper authority to post in the disease section. What will their next move undoubtedly be? PM that member. This may lead to more complicated bad advice via our pm system.

Just some aloud talk.

[OC Discus]

While there are many qualified members, there are probably enough moderators and administrators to handle the load. If not, select individuals could be invited to participate. Maybe a special status could be given to them, like trouble shooters or experts. New members usually won't know what advice is good and what is not- or who has experience and who doesn't.

Another thought. When a member clicks on new posts he sees posts from every section. He s not necessarily going to the disease section as if he were an expert. He s responding to a question that he thinks he can answer.


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[roclement]

Al, and team,

First off, thanks for taking on this challenge, it will make for a great, and positive impact in the forum.

You already hit the nail in the head, treat it like the University, only a few qualified people can reply, and we know who they are, 2 of them are posting on this same thread already. I also agree that pm's are a bad way to go about it, I myself am guilty of taking that route sometimes simply because I know who I trust, so I ask them directly, to the detriment of the forum; with a new format, I would be more inclined to post openly again.

As for the number of qualified people that would be allowed to respond, well 3 or 4 should suffice no? Isn't there a way that the ones selected get notified when someone starts a new post? If so it should make it easier to manage.

Anyway, just my two cents...thanks again for looking into this! Keep it up!

Rodrigo

[yim11]

This is a great discussion as no doubt better, more accurate info in this forum area would benefit us all.

I believe there are 2 constants no matter what direction the forum goes, even if it is to do nothing at all:

- some folks will be mad/upset
- there will be more moderation needed

You have both already in the current state, so essentially no change there no matter how you proceed.

Given that, I think there is a different perspective to consider, it's what I believe is the impossible option.

If we could change how folks post in this area then the proposed restrictions/changes might not be needed.

Almost all posts in this area fall into 3 buckets IMO.

The first is folks that are just repeating info they have heard or read, no actual experience. Most of the time their posts will be along the lines of "treat with X drug" or "add X to the water". If we could change this group to post as questions instead of suggestions it would be much better. Changing the previous examples to "I've read of people treating with X drug, would that apply to this situation?" or "I've seen X added to the water in similar situations, how would that affect this situation?" This allows for the less experienced folks to participate and more importantly for more experienced folks to follow up and clarify why or why not those repeated suggestions may or may not work. Best part is everyone wins by learning more.

The second group is folks that have some limited experience but may not have enough to understand the details regarding what they've done. Often these folks post their results as absolute without giving much if any necessary additional info. An example might be adding salt a tank on a regular basis. Instead of just telling folks to add salt everyday it would be better if details like why they add salt daily, conditions of fish over time, conditions of tank, etc. The additional info allows readers to understand this person may have a unique reason or setup or misunderstanding that doesn't apply to most situations so they could disregard that type of info as needed.

The last group is obviously the most experienced, these would be the 'heavy lifters' of the forum area expected to assist and comment as much as possible to help ensure good quality information is being presented.

No matter what I think any changes will certainly improve the quality of information provided in this forum area.

Thank you,
-jim

[Mugwump]

For the disease board responders .....Wouldn't searching the forum/database/disease board/oldest members/ #responses.... be informative??...It would give a listing of, presumably, the oldest members posting advice, and how current their involvement.....then select from those folks first, adding for level of expertise after that...??

[Disgirl]

I like the idea to have a select and knowledgeable group of members to offer help when needed. I suggest it be called either the
Hospital or Medical Center. The chosen "doctors" should be well qualified and well respected at the forum. How those members are chosen should be up to the admin here since they are both.
Barb

[musicmarn1]

I LOVE that this is going to change the disease section. It should only be answered by experts IMHO because desperation when your fish are sick is very real, leading the OP to look for advice very quickly, therefore less experienced people may reach them first and secondly because they want an emotional connection, feeling cared about from the advisor

the reason less experienced people give advice is EMPATHY, the OP feels vunerable and feels often, judging purely by the facts here of WHY other opinions are actively saught out, it makes them feel better when its given by someone who is catering to the emotional needs of the OP instead of strictly the fish, LOL

there are to me a few important points in this discussion that need to be addressed.

OPTION 1/. Treat as a last resort approach - being advised by a successful, long time discus keeper of good repute, who has bred or shown fish and keeps a very strict maintenence, or just good housekeeping and is very careful not to treat the wrong medication too soon. May not actualy HAVE extensive medicine use, may be quicker to CULL a sick fish and keep the main body of fish healthy, often sacrificing the individual for that purpose.

OPTION 2/. Treat sooner , being a discus keeper with extensive history who knows more about medicine. Also years of experience, breeding maybe showing, but who knows his medicine cabinet WELL and might recommend treating if he clearly recognizes the symptoms and can in good concience provide a reasonable diagnosis. its fraught with flaws, sharing fish health over the internet and no guarantees are to be expected, its in the OP's interest to select his advisor carefully, but i think if there COULDbe a choice, some OPdesperately want to treat and some are willing to be patient and go longer first improving hygiene and hospital practices.

i think in an ideal world there would be a choice.

3/. Timing, who you get and who stays with you may be a question of who has time. but as a USER of this section, a beginner who has felt utterly lost and worried about a sick discus, timing and feeling connected to the advisor are the two biggies. there are times MY gut says to treat quickly in urgent cases. but i aslo see the benefit of both, or even culling sooner to prevent spreading. i have also read and followed carefully the other approach and it has worked. when i urgently feel the need to medicate im going to gravitate toward that kind of advisor.

Either way, i would rather see zero imput from anyone but those who have had MANYMANY discus for many many years, only reason i feel anyone posts is to provide comfort for those in distress and to feel useful.

first rule of medicine is do no harm, over the internet is going to be very hard to keep to that, either approach can lead to the death of the fish, wait too long to treat when its needed and fish die, treat with the wrong medication too soon and fish die.

by the way where ARE the facts that medicating kills more fish than diseases? i hear that a lot, is that really true? i know when antibiotics are needed in dogs, i use them but i do absolutely everything to avoid needing them. With fish i make more mistakes than i do with dogs ! so im more likely to get to the point where meds are needed, sooner because i screwed stuff up.


LASTLY im sorry, these thoughts have been in my head for AGES and its a really desperate, horrible situation when you have sick fish, ive even refrained from posting once or twice since i was worried about too many incomplete opinions, (i dont mind scathing remarks, i actually welcome them as a wake up call if im being an idiot, as long as the person then forgives me and i do the right thing and we move on im over it)

so lastly, i think the REAL UNIVERSITY, Tom and co, should be bought in a lot more, to get OP such as myself actually right now id love to cull a young juvie send it off because im seeing a little hiccup in my tank and i dont know what it is been doing a bunch more wc and cleaning and just not sure so i would love to use the university send off to their microscope and see whats going on in a couple of my cull juvies. if that was promoted more and signposted on how to do that , it would be GREAT to get the real results posted.

OMG a picture of the real results of a cull, in some cases would be amazing. since bacteria grow so fast on a dead body, would the fish need to be sent alive, culled and immediately frozen or how is it done ? id love to send water sample, poop sample and two fish to make sure i know everything about what i HAVE done wrong and fix it. i am happy to cull or whatever is needed, treat or not treat, but i want to get it right. not flounder around in the dark.

i was a vet tech of 7 years and have a dog rescue/training/boarding facility, with a degree in physiology and nutrition from the university of Leeds UK so im not a beginner in animal care. but fish care is totally new and i want to learn at a faster rate.

[nc0gnet0]

I myself am guilty of taking that route sometimes simply because I know who I trust, so I ask them directly, to the detriment of the forum; with a new format, I would be more inclined to post openly again.

There is nothing wrong with that, you are soliciting advise, from someone you trust. the real problem is when someone that posts to the disease section (normally someone new) gets unsolicited advice from a questionable source (however well intentioned that advice might be) via pm. Two very different scenarios.

-Rick

[DonMD]

In the past I have said that I would like to see something like Rick suggest with a notation by the username to denote a "Simply" trusted source. Of course this presents several problems. How does one become a trusted source? Does Simply take on some liability by doing this? Will the team members be readily available so quick response is available to those in need? A new user really does need a way to know who to trust.

Like probably most posters on this discussion, I have benefited greatly from this section, especially advice regarding using aquatic vets. And I appreciate the apparent contradiction between the value in letting unexperienced members post their "help" and only letting the most experienced advise. Perhaps one option would be to assign a category to those most qualified to advise, as has been suggested. Provide a "white lab coat" next to their avatar in this section, and indicate in the posting instructions that any poster can receive advice from anybody, but only those with the lab coats have the proven expertise, based on their performance on this forum. This way, a poster could evaluate the advise they're getting from "qualified" vs "non-qualified" respondents.

I don't know how this might cause problems with liability for the forum. But it would let anyone post a reply, and let each OP decide who to believe.

I never give advice in this section: it seems the more I learn about discus, the less confident I feel about advising anyone else. But I have most definitely benefited from good advice here, and it's made a big difference in keeping me in the hobby. So, Al, I say, excellent idea, and I hope you can come up with a good solution.

[nc0gnet0]

Biggest issue with the disease forum is the fact that treatment is the easy part, diagnosis is what is always problematic. Add to that human nature, and the fact the OP wants to do something and do something now, and as such will dump the first medication into the tank that he/she is offered.

If I had a nickle for every time somebody posted about a fish with something amiss with the gills, either scratching, flared or breathing from one side, and the immediate responses on "your fish must have flukes" treat with PP, then do a salt dip, followed by a salt bath, and why not toss in some prazi while your at it.

Ok maybe a bit of an over-exaggeration, but by the time the OP has read the first 4-5 replies, it will amount to that.

If only there was a good placebo out there for the hobbyist.......

[nc0gnet0]

3/. Timing, who you get and who stays with you may be a question of who has time. but as a USER of this section, a beginner who has felt utterly lost and worried about a sick discus, timing and feeling connected to the advisor are the two biggies. there are times MY gut says to treat quickly in urgent cases. but i aslo see the benefit of both, or even culling sooner to prevent spreading. i have also read and followed carefully the other approach and it has worked. when i urgently feel the need to medicate im going to gravitate toward that kind of advisor.

The truth of the matter there are a very limited number of scenarios in which timing is that extreme of an issue. There are no anti-parasitics or anti-biotics out there that are going to make an immediate impact. Almost always, doing nothing, or better yet doing a good water change, is much better than doing something (aka adding meds), until a reasonable diagnosis is made. If the fish is lost during that time, chances are there is nothing that could have been done to save that fish to begin with.

-Rick

[alcastro]

I appreciate the experts in this forum, to me I always ask my self why, I don't do what iI was told to due till I am explained the reasons why, if the person don't know why or it makes so sense then I wait till someone comes up and makes more sense or explains why.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SMB2]

The only issue I see is that the experts get tired of answering the same questions time and again. This generally is what gives rise to not so good advice being given at the beginning of many disease threads.
Perhaps the new section can be broken into loose categories: wounds, not eating, poops, you get the idea. Each category could have a header with a short rundown of best practices for that issue. Then the experts don't have to continually repeat themselves, and the OP has some basic things to try while waiting for a reply.

[Second Hand Pat]

If only there was a good placebo out there for the hobbyist.......

I love this statement and yes, the selected few will carry a huge burden. Anyone who has watched Eddie (and more recently Paul) tend to the disease threads knows this. While we are in this subject are there any suggestions on improving the disease questionnaire since it is part of the equation.

[nc0gnet0]

While we are in this subject are there any suggestions on improving the disease questionnaire since it is part of the equation.

more history on the onset of the disease.

[Second Hand Pat]

Original

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

Change

1. Please explain the problems with your fish and when you noticed the problem. Please include a brief history about the onset of the problem and it's progression.

[OC Discus]

How long has the tank been running? Please give a brief history of the tank since it was first setup: Substrate, Plants, Fish and their sources, Filtration, Maintenance schedule, chemical additives used, and when major changes were made to any of the above- ie- started with gravel 2 years ago. Removed gravel 1 month ago. Started with canister 2 years ago. Removed canister 2 weeks ago. Started with xyz fish 2 years ago, added xyz fish one month ago.



I love this statement and yes, the selected few will carry a huge burden. Anyone who has watched Eddie (and more recently Paul) tend to the disease threads knows this. While we are in this subject are there any suggestions on improving the disease questionnaire since it is part of the equation.

[Keith Perkins]

The only problem I see with "certified" disease experts is that at times they will be saddled with questions others could obviously answer. I for the most part try not to offer any advice in this section if I don't have first hand experience with the problem and did something that worked to fix it. These things usually came about from getting advice from Paul or someone over the years.

Also just PMing someone for an answer, which I'm quite guilty of, doesn't do anything to educate the other forum members.

[OC Discus]

Another factor to consider is to ensure the "certified" technicians are giving unbiased advice or are free from any conflict of interest- ie- selling products or livestock.

Also ensure that the "certified technicians" are not running customers away with rude, sarcastic, or insulting comments. While some are able to take this, others will see this as bad advice simply because of the tone in which it is given. Like a parent telling his son he's stupid and can't do anything right. The son is actually turned off by the father's advice, even if it is right. He will rebel and seek the advice of others, often taking bad advice.

Looking at the section as a tech support department, it makes sense to have only "certified techs" giving advice, or at least to identify plainly who the "certified techs" are in their identification area. Larry suggested a lab coat logo. The admins could enlist a team of certified techs, give them a status and logo, and when they post it would be clear that their advice is approved by sd.

I've seen Toyota techs post on the Toyota forum like this. Others may post, but techs are identified as certified techs giving more weight to their comments.

[pcsb23]

Folks, the main reason we decided to ask for the members ideas was to see if there are some ideas out there we haven't come up with. Al's suggestions are just that at this moment - suggestions!.

One thing I think is becoming clear is there seems to be a view that we can improve how the disease section works. Our task is to find a way that gets the very best out of it we can. I don't think this thread should be used for refining the detail of certain things - it will be far more useful pooling ideas and hopefully through discussion some positive way forward can be found.

We are getting some good ideas and some good insight into how people use this section. And so far all options are still on the table. We could restrict who can reply for sure, that is technically easy to do, we could also have some form of indicator next to the responder that shows some level of knowledge. I believe we can improve the questionnaire too, though sometimes getting folk to use it can be challenging.

Jim made an excellent observation here, one that definitely resonates with me:

...If we could change how folks post in this area then the proposed restrictions/changes might not be needed.

Almost all posts in this area fall into 3 buckets IMO.

The first is folks that are just repeating info they have heard or read, no actual experience. Most of the time their posts will be along the lines of "treat with X drug" or "add X to the water". If we could change this group to post as questions instead of suggestions it would be much better. Changing the previous examples to "I've read of people treating with X drug, would that apply to this situation?" or "I've seen X added to the water in similar situations, how would that affect this situation?" This allows for the less experienced folks to participate and more importantly for more experienced folks to follow up and clarify why or why not those repeated suggestions may or may not work. Best part is everyone wins by learning more.

The second group is folks that have some limited experience but may not have enough to understand the details regarding what they've done. Often these folks post their results as absolute without giving much if any necessary additional info. An example might be adding salt a tank on a regular basis. Instead of just telling folks to add salt everyday it would be better if details like why they add salt daily, conditions of fish over time, conditions of tank, etc. The additional info allows readers to understand this person may have a unique reason or setup or misunderstanding that doesn't apply to most situations so they could disregard that type of info as needed.

The last group is obviously the most experienced, these would be the 'heavy lifters' of the forum area expected to assist and comment as much as possible to help ensure good quality information is being presented.

No matter what I think any changes will certainly improve the quality of information provided in this forum area.

Thank you,
-jim

In the discussions between Al, Pat and me I have maintained that I see the disease section as an opportunity for folk to learn (me included) - I'm sure there are people wha can offer sound advice, I guess the trick is recognising our own limitations.

So, please keep the discussion going and please keep throwing ideas into the hat.

[judijetson]

As a new discus owner (about one year) I really like the idea of having certified advisors only being able to respond to possible disease/illness issues. I can completely understand the feeling of wanting to do something to help the fish and receiving the wrong advice and acting on it can be disastrous. Then there's the back and forth arguing of members that go so off the original topic that the person asking for advice ends up even more confused. Limiting the users who can respond will be only beneficial to the poster.

I have posted in the disease section and received wonderful advice from members with experience but I also was a member prior to posting and was able determine who knew what they were talking about so I was able to concentrate on their advise only. I wasn't able to save the fish but I learned what to look for, what to have in my medicine cabinet and how to lessen the chance of it happening again (egg crate is now my favorite aquarium accessory).

Maybe it can be set up as nurses, interns and doctors so to speak with certified individuals being able to assist with different levels of advice?

I would also like to see the entire issue followed through on the forum so that all members can actually learn but that would be up to the original poster.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3

[pcsb23]

...
I would also like to see the entire issue followed through on the forum so that all members can actually learn but that would be up to the original poster.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3
Hi Judi, that last comment is quite an interesting point you raise. It would be nice for all disease threads to have an outcome posted at the end. I'm sure it would help everyone, and it would be more useful too if the OP stated what treatments they used etc ...

[inkfam]

I don't think discus university worked very well.... Their were many people who posted pictures and waited for a response for up to a day or more.. Also, +1 on the comment OC DDiscus made how the certified technician treats people. Maybe, they will need a course on patience and tolerance :) I take to Larry's idea the most. Just my two cents!

-Chris

[judijetson]

Hi Judi, that last comment is quite an interesting point you raise. It would be nice for all disease threads to have an outcome posted at the end. I'm sure it would help everyone, and it would be more useful too if the OP stated what treatments they used etc ...

Thanks Paul, so many times I read about an issue and the possible treatments the poster could use but so many are not followed through so we are left wondering what happened.

I've learned it's a two way street, if you want assistance from experienced members you have to follow their instructions, document the procedure and follow through with the results. I actually started my own little form that I filled out during treatment just so I would have a record of the issue, what medication I used and the dosage.

It is true though if an issue is posted and there is a lack of response posters will become more panicked then they already are and will post in any section just to receive some sort of help....

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3

[nc0gnet0]

Also, +1 on the comment OC DDiscus made how the certified technician treats people. Maybe, they will need a course on patience and tolerance

Only on rare occasions (although it does happen) is the vitriol targeted at the OP. Most often you will find it targeted at what one believes is bad advice. I actually believe limiting who is allowed to post to the section would in fact clear up a good part of that, as well as keep the thread on target.

[musicmarn1]

i love the question response comment, it does raise the point that a lot of people actually learn best, by *teaching* tentively trying to coach others in how they have learned and people are more likely to learn from a forum in which they post input.

suggestions or observations of possible problems, that are fine would be things you know are not medication and can do no harm = hospital tank, bare bottom tank, too small a group of discus, no qt, increase water changes and so on. right?

(temperature being often a problem example of this where too soon people recommend increasing temp only to see the expert say no dont do that ) perhaps if someone is on a time critical situation, non medication suggestions can come from anyone (heat and salt being contraversial right? so perhaps not?) with clear rules that only non medical suggestions are wise for non certified techs to make, since it can be dangerous for any animal to take medications if the diagnosis is wrong and will add further stress to the body, weaken the immune system and be a waste of time!


dont suppose we can make it where anyone can join in with a question but if your not a CT then your highly discouraged and clearly warned this can do more harm than good no matter your experience, its just that your experience and not necessarily a proper diagnosis. and be pretty strict about reminding people not to jump in with any medications given based on experience? pm's are pm's but a majority of people learn from public posts on problems, ive gone more to pm because the forum has too much contradicting advice and i know if im worried i might be easily pursuaded by the kindly tone of a well meaning but not seasoned enough veteran, to do the wrong thing. and its just plain confusing

just a side note here, any of the dog forums im on almost NO ONE in their right minds, prescribes medications, antibiotics etc, if they are not a vet !!!! they will OFTEN myself included, prescribe things that help say diarrhea, like pumpkin and probiotic containing yogurt. but its absolutely taken in most of my horse dog or bird forums that only a VET should prescribe specific medications,

diagnosis being the main reason since diagnosis on a forum is HARD lol

[nc0gnet0]

So far there is only two tangible changes/suggestions that I can see.

1) give certain users a designation
2) Treat the section much like the university section was setup.

is there a way to incorporate a spread sheet into the disease questionnaire in such a way that the OP simply has to answer questions via multiple choice by checking off a series of box's? This might expedite the process, make him/her consider things that they otherwise might not have seen as relevant, and easier and less intimidating.

-Rick

[OC Discus]

Also, please monitor whether posters are getting adequate responses. I have seen old posts that actually never got answered. If the techs can keep up with the load- for example at least one good answer within an hour to four hours more techs are needed.

Maybe techs should be assigned by planted vs unplanted too since some specialize in each area.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pcsb23]

Can we get away from this phrase "techs" - whoever does this will not be a technician - it implies qualifications - and most people don't have any that are relevant to fish disease.

One of the problems we are faced with is that most vets know very little about fish diseases - I know more vets that know about reptiles than fish for example. In an ideal world there would be many more fish vets but until there is we have to make the best use of what we have.

[nc0gnet0]

. In an ideal world there would be many more fish vets but until there is we have to make the best use of what we have.

Even then most fish vets need to do a necropsy in order to make a diagnosis :)

[pcsb23]

Even then most fish vets need to do a necropsy in order to make a diagnosis :)Yup, that's true also, though many can help without killing the fish and cutting it up :)

[Tautog]

One useful technique for the Discus hobby that could be made available is a single source library of material properly citing those experts with credentials as the source. Then add an additional library of best practices citing those experienced hobbyist best practices and successes that are not backed by factual science but rather real world experience and observation.

You add a disclaimer that informs library users of the source, etc. Regarding scientific sources, I saw a great presentation on Diseases and Treatments by Dr Tom Waltzek with University of Florida at the NADA DISCUS SHOW in June. There are several experts whom may provide help if asked. I'd enjoy the opportunity to see if we can get that level of expertise engaged in the hobby forum. His theories on Discus Plague connection to a Herpes virus strand was very interesting. Don't quote me or him. His research is not yet proven but very interesting.

And then you could still have a place for people to ask questions. The thing I appreciate about this Al is that you are open and not closed and you allow freedom to express and share knowledge even if it is opinion. I say allow opinion just support clarification of the quality the source and don't get hung up on whether it helps or hurts. This is about free process and disclaimer.

The library with searchable key words like symptom traits and issue characteristics would be very helpful.

Sorry... Just openly providing you my opinions. Hope that's ok. And thank you for this site. I use it all the time.

[nc0gnet0]

The library with searchable key words like symptom traits and issue characteristics would be very helpful.

In theory that sounds like a good idea, but I think it would lead to more misdiagnosis than it would the correct ones. Many different disease present themselves in much the same way. Not to mention it would be a colossal undertaking that would take years to complete.


I saw a great presentation on Diseases and Treatments by Dr Tom Waltzek with University of Florida at the NADA DISCUS SHOW in June. There are several experts whom may provide help if asked. I'd enjoy the opportunity to see if we can get that level of expertise engaged in the hobby forum.

I too was there. I am not so sure that type of expert would have the time available, nor the inclination to participate (their reputation would be on the line) in what often is a "best guess" diagnosis. I guess it wouldn't hurt to ask, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Snow]

Although I am new to this forum I would like to put my 2 cents in for what it's worth.

First, anything (just about) read on the internet can/could be subjective. At, times one has to use common sense when doing what they are told by others. An example of this would be Web MD. You could look up a pain in your leg & it will tell you anything from blood clot to a strain to tumor.

Second, I personally scout (read) around the forum to see who possibly is more knowledgeable than maybe some others. I think this too should be up to the person "seeking" info.

It would be an understatement to say that there are some very knowledgeable people on here when it comes to Discus keeping & others that are just learning (me for 1). Although, I think that everyone should be able to have a say. Just because some have more knowledge or are experts does not mean that others might not be able to bring something of use to the table. I have not commented in the section in question because I am ill informed at this point to do that. However, there may be a time when someone can say "this is what helped/worked for me" & "that I'm sure others with more knowledge will chime in soon". I also, still think that it is up to the advice seeker to ascertain if what they are being told is what they want to try or to do further research as well (which is what I would do).

I have to say that everyone's method is not the best method for every person or situation. As a whole we should come together to help or put idea's out there to help other's that may be in a crisis. But ONLY if what you have to offer is something you yourself have been through or actually know what you are talking about.

[nc0gnet0]

Is there a way to ease the 10 post minimum to post photos in the disease section only?

I am thinking something like a trigger installed to the disease questionnaire that removes the requirement, ie if the form is filled out and posted, photo's are then automatically allowed in that section......

[plecocicho]

Maybe you could have an option to post in symptoms threads ie white feaces, flashing, wounds, white blotches and dots, etc. Each of these symptoms could be various diseases of course (or trauma in case of wounds) but it would narrow the cause, provided there are no multiple symptoms for multiple diseases. Also ticking options, where you just write in or choose smyptoms, size of the tank, wc regime, wter parameters, etc could also work.

[nc0gnet0]

Is there a way to ease the 10 post minimum to post photos in the disease section only?

I am thinking something like a trigger installed to the disease questionnaire that removes the requirement, ie if the form is filled out and posted, photo's are then automatically allowed in that section......

Also, location of the op can sometimes be a valuable piece of information.

[pcsb23]

I am closing this thread now. We have made some changes based on responses here and have opened a new thread here to explain what these changes are and for any questions and such. http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?115165-Changes-to-the-Disease-Sickness-and-Medication-forum

Many thanks to those that offered opinions.