Plumbing for Double overflow 220 gal

[dragon1974]

Ok maybe my SD brothers and sisters can help me out here.
Backstory
I've acquired a 220 gallon Miracles aquarium (hell yeah) along with a 140 gallon sump (double hell yeah). It was a SW setup originally so before I set this beast up in my basement I wanted to clean it up a bit and let it run for a couple weeks to leak test it (god knows if that thing leaks I'm going to be a dead man). Anyway, after putting everything back together (standpipe and return line), I realized that the sump wasn't going to fit under the tank and would have to be placed in the back of the stand to work.
Needless to say I don't want to lose more real estate in the basement so the 140 gal has to go (Son of a *****). So now I'm in the process of getting a 75 gal which would work under the tank, unfortunately, the plumbing isn't going to work because it was setup for the bigger tank and the positioning is all off. I have to do the plumbing over (double son of a *****). I have the chance now to do a hard plumb but I have zero experience in plumbing and I don't want to screw this up.

Question now is, can someone help with what I would need to do a hard plumb on this system?

The tank is a 6' X 2' X 2 1/2' and both overflows are located in the back corners. They are both standpipe style and I have the bulkheads already in place for them (all be it leaking but I forgot to put plumbing tape on them so that's an easy fix).

Overflow piping was either 1 1/4" or 1/1/2" I have to check but the return is 3/4" and the pump is a Gen X 40.

Again be gentle as by background is computers and not plumbing LOL.

Anyway let me know what you guys think I can do

[Frankr409]

Sorry to hear about the 140, that would have been pretty awesome. Like you, I am a consultant and not a plumber. I had my contractors build the plumbing for me based on my specifications.

I spent a good deal of time here at this link studying plumbing concepts, and trying to minimize head loss/increase outflow. To that end we did pretty well.
http://www.reefaquarium.com/2012/aquarium-plumbing-basics/#comment-25072

This web site gave good practical information on flow rates under different situations.
http://www.remsreef.com/p/bulkhead-flow-rates.html


My 130 sump is plumbed into my adjacent train room, and takes up no additional space as it sits under bench work. but yours in reality would not be much different, instead of taking a 45 degree turn out to an adjacent room, it would go down into your cabinet and into your sump.

For the return, they key would be to minimize head height and angles. I would highly recommend valves on the outflow and return for fine tuning of water height, and a check valve just after the return pump so the thing cannot possibly back flow and flood the sump.

My 2" overflows are not the same height, one is lower, and under full siphon, the other is higher and is calibrated via the outflow valve to be at half water intake.

Hopefully the following picture gives you some idea of what it looks like before the two overflows are joined. Forgive Picture #2 it is sideways.

[kareen]

I would try to go with tubeing if you can would make it easyer to work with good luck very nice tank

[adapted]

Buy a contractor pack of one and a quarter elbows (or one and a half if that's the size you need) and a pack of couplings, a pair of tube cutters, a can of Oatey PVC cement and a can of primer, then a couple of long PVC pieces of the same size. About 40 bucks total. Then start cutting and gluing. You'll probably have to redo some segments but it really isn't hard at all. After you get used to priming and joining, it's mostly common sense.

-- Don't forget to circumvent back siphon if the power goes out and your return pipe or hose extends below water level... m9ost people learn the hard way about this. You can either drill a hole above the water line or buy a check valve.

[fishyj]

Like adapted said. Its not really too hard. Just remember that with the pvc cement you only get a few seconds to line up and then your glued. You probably will find a video on youtube on gluing pvc together.

[dragon1974]

Thanks guys, I know it isn't hard but having 2 kids that want to be with me all the time I find it hard to think LOL. Wish I had a plumber friend that had more time than me hahaha. This weekend I'll head over to Home Depot and check out the stuff.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Where are you located Dragon? Maybe there is someone from the forum in your area that can help.

One thing you need to remember too is, make sure you have shutoff valves on your intake and your output lines to help adjust the flow if needed back into the tank. You do not want more power than needed as this is the quickest way to overfill your tank.

[dragon1974]

I'm in canada, north of Toronto. I'm still hopeful that someone with more experience can help me. I don't mind doing it, but I might miss something that is important.

[dragon1974]

Ok so I came up with a couple designs that might work.

Some of the problems I'm faced with are limited space to screw the bulkhead and adapter together (holes were drilled pretty close to the stand legs). This limits the way I wanted to plumb the overflow/return line.

So I don't have a fancy program to show the plumbing design. This is what I want to do, but I would like input as to what is needed or can be replaced or redesigned for future upgrading etc.

Tell me if this makes sense,

On the overflow from the tank

All 1.5” PVC pipe –Bulk head> adapter>90 degree elbow>Double true union ball valve>T joint>gate valve>sump

OR
Bulkhead > Adapter>Double true union ball valve>90 degree elbow> T joint>gate valve>sump

Return line

All ¾” reinforced flex line – Sump> ball valve/Gate valve>Return Pump>T joint>Bulkhead

OR

Sump>Return Pump> ball valve/Gate valve>T joint>Bulkhead

Any input will be nice as I'm planning the trip to the Hardware store for sometime this week.

Thanks all

[Tankster]

Following this as I am about to do the same. I wish I lived closer so I could take that 140 sump off your hands!


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[dragon1974]

Make the trip Tankster and I'll trade you for some discus :). JK, this is a pita to deal with but I'm trying to understand flow rates/head height etc. I kinda understand but I'm not one to start something that I have no idea about. Not to mention, I need to have my garage back before the winter, so this needs to be finished way before then. Once this is done, I have to beg friends and family to help me move this thing into the basement. To this day they still don't get why I wanted this big tank....I keep telling everyone, crackheads have crack and fishheads have aquariums LOL.

[nvladik]

All 1.5” PVC pipe –Bulk head> adapter>90 degree elbow>Double true union ball valve>T joint>gate valve>sump

OR
Bulkhead > Adapter>Double true union ball valve>90 degree elbow> T joint>gate valve>sump


If the only difference here is to pus the elbow before or after the ball valve, I don't think there's any difference. I am guessing ball valves here are for on/off functionality, not really to constrain the flow, then I guestion why they are needed. If you still want them, save yourself one ball valve and put both valves together after the Tee As far as original question, before or after, there's no difference, all depends on how much room there is, consider where the ball valve will be and if it will be easy to get to it to use it.



Return line

All ¾” reinforced flex line – Sump> ball valve/Gate valve>Return Pump>T joint>Bulkhead

OR

Sump>Return Pump> ball valve/Gate valve>T joint>Bulkhead


I would go with: Sump>Return Pump> Tee > ball valve/Gate valve on each line > Bulkhead - You want to be able to control the individual lines to balance out flow inside the tank, unless everything is perfectly symmetric.

[dragon1974]

I also think I'm missing a check valve on the return line or is it better just to point the output just above the waterline as check valves are prone to fail?

[dragon1974]

If the only difference here is to pus the elbow before or after the ball valve, I don't think there's any difference. I am guessing ball valves here are for on/off functionality, not really to constrain the flow, then I guestion why they are needed. If you still want them, save yourself one ball valve and put both valves together after the Tee As far as original question, before or after, there's no difference, all depends on how much room there is, consider where the ball valve will be and if it will be easy to get to it to use it.



I would go with: Sump>Return Pump> Tee > ball valve/Gate valve on each line > Bulkhead - You want to be able to control the individual lines to balance out flow inside the tank, unless everything is perfectly symmetric.

Well I was thinking to reduce the flow with them as they are cheaper than gate valves, but from reading up I know you try not to restrict the flow from the overflows. SO save myself some frustration and get unions inplace of the ball valves and put one ball valve on the end to lock the line when I'm cleaning/making changes etc?


On the return line I can do that, not sure if they will be even but from your experience what do you think is best?

[nvladik]

I also think I'm missing a check valve on the return line or is it better just to point the output just above the waterline as check valves are prone to fail?

Depends on the size of the sump, vs. amount of water in the tank at the overflow level. I had one on my tank, it further restricts the waterflow, but I didn't want to upgrade to an even louder pump. I ended up removing it.

[nvladik]

Well I was thinking to reduce the flow with them as they are cheaper than gate valves, but from reading up I know you try not to restrict the flow from the overflows. SO save myself some frustration and get unions inplace of the ball valves and put one ball valve on the end to lock the line when I'm cleaning/making changes etc?


On the return line I can do that, not sure if they will be even but from your experience what do you think is best?

1. I would use gate valves anywhere where you want precise control of the flow - ball valves are a pain. You might still want to reduce the flow on the outflow, I had to, as I didn't want to hear overflow noise. I used it to get the exact overflow water volume as my pump was pumping back in.

2. I had a center overflow that split up inside the tank itself, so I didn't have this issue, but if I had corner overflows, I would put the valves on the individual lines.

[dragon1974]

So this would be better:

All 1.5” PVC pipe –Bulk head> adapter>90 degree elbow>Union Valve>Gate Valve>T joint>Ball Valve>sump

Return line

All ¾” reinforced flex line – Sump>Return Pump> Tee > Gate valve on each line > Bulkhead

[nvladik]

So this would be better:

All 1.5” PVC pipe –Bulk head> adapter>90 degree elbow>Union Valve>Gate Valve>T joint>Ball Valve>sump

Return line

All ¾” reinforced flex line – Sump>Return Pump> Tee > Gate valve on each line > Bulkhead

Return looks good to me.

Overflow line > Questioning the ball valve again, I just don't see the reason for it. If the sump is big enough, when you turn off the pump all the overflowing water will flow into the sump. No need to torn off the flow completely.

Union Valve>Gate Valve - You can just get a True Union Gate Valve and combine the two.

[dragon1974]

Ok so finally

All 1.5” PVC pipe –Bulk head> adapter>90 degree elbow>True Union Gate Valve>T joint>sump

Return line

All ¾” reinforced flex line – Sump>Return Pump> Tee > Gate valve on each line > Bulkhead

[adapted]

One thing you may want to consider is noise abatement, specifically a Stockman or Durso standpipe. They are easy to fabricate if you go by one of the Youtube How-To videos. I mention it because it will reduce your flow rate somewhat, as will every elbow you use. If you don't mind some intermittent gurgling noise, don't bother.

Also, you may not really need a valve at all in the return line. I put one in but I have never used it. The return rate cannot be greater than what the line from the sump is supplying. (Valves restrict flow, not much, but some.)

If you get into this, you can post some photos here and get some help that way....

[dragon1974]

One thing you may want to consider is noise abatement, specifically a Stockman or Durso standpipe. They are easy to fabricate if you go by one of the Youtube How-To videos. I mention it because it will reduce your flow rate somewhat, as will every elbow you use. If you don't mind some intermittent gurgling noise, don't bother.

Also, you may not really need a valve at all in the return line. I put one in but I have never used it. The return rate cannot be greater than what the line from the sump is supplying. (Valves restrict flow, not much, but some.)

If you get into this, you can post some photos here and get some help that way....

Yep I have the Durso standpipe setup now and actually not too worries about the noise as the tank is in the basement. Not to mention I ran this setup a bit and I didn't really hear anything. The only noise was from the overflow hitting the sump, but I wasn't worried as I still have to do the filter bag and prefilter stuff.
Well all the overflow plumbing is 1 1/2 inch and the return is 3/4 inch, I really doubt I can overflow the system but I guess someone with more experience can chime in on that.
Well I was thinking last night and they original owner of the tank had 1 ball valve on the end of the overflow and that was it. So I'm thinking to go back that way. So, the end will be All 1.5” PVC pipe –Bulk head> adapter>90 degree elbow>Union Valve>T Joint>Ball Valve>sump

The return line is already setup using reinforced tubing. The sump is up with the connections and ball valve and I just have to figure out how to have a reducer slip connection for the end of the sump and then I'm off to the races. Images will be attached shortly

[dragon1974]

Images too big I'll have to go home and redo them.

[Tankster]

Make the trip Tankster and I'll trade you for some discus :). JK, this is a pita to deal with but I'm trying to understand flow rates/head height etc. I kinda understand but I'm not one to start something that I have no idea about. Not to mention, I need to have my garage back before the winter, so this needs to be finished way before then. Once this is done, I have to beg friends and family to help me move this thing into the basement. To this day they still don't get why I wanted this big tank....I keep telling everyone, crackheads have crack and fishheads have aquariums LOL.

I was up your way not long ago. We did a road trip up to Algonquin Provincial Park and spent a few nights on the lake at Kiosk Campground just off of 630. Beautiful country up there!

[dragon1974]

LOL, I had that sump for over a month now and I didn't know it couldn't fit below the stand. I wish I posted it that way you might have had a chance. Funny of things work out. Anyway, I might still have it by the time you decide to come back. I live way south of there, just north of Toronto.
Well still hoping to have this thing sold or traded for something I can use

[usuzukuri]

Ok so I came up with a couple designs that might work.

Some of the problems I'm faced with are limited space to screw the bulkhead and adapter together (holes were drilled pretty close to the stand legs). This limits the way I wanted to plumb the overflow/return line.

So I don't have a fancy program to show the plumbing design. This is what I want to do, but I would like input as to what is needed or can be replaced or redesigned for future upgrading etc.

Tell me if this makes sense,

On the overflow from the tank

All 1.5” PVC pipe –Bulk head> adapter>90 degree elbow>Double true union ball valve>T joint>gate valve>sump

OR
Bulkhead > Adapter>Double true union ball valve>90 degree elbow> T joint>gate valve>sump

Return line

All ¾” reinforced flex line – Sump> ball valve/Gate valve>Return Pump>T joint>Bulkhead

OR

Sump>Return Pump> ball valve/Gate valve>T joint>Bulkhead

Any input will be nice as I'm planning the trip to the Hardware store for sometime this week.

Thanks all



I wouldn't use a T joint for overflow, this will limit the flow rate and increase change of clogging. Run two pipes down to sum so that in case one clogged, you still have the other. Also use a vacuum flex hose if you can, this will make everything so much easier. For return line, you'll definitely need a check valve. Here's how I done mine:
Overflow: Bulkhead -> 90deg adapter -> ball valve -> vacuum hose -> sump
Return: return pump (inside sump) -> UV -> check valve -> gate valve -> T union -> bulkheads