beginner needs help!

[FishyRobert]

:)

I have had fish for a long time. I currently have 2 marine tanks. I consider myself a total discus beginner!

have one 40 gallon tank, 3 feet long, with 2 enormous fresh water angels and some bettas and catfish. doing very well.

dumb questions:

1. how many small discus can I put in the 40 gallon.? it has a large fluval filter. cant recall which one, but rated 80 gallons I think

2. how many discus in a 65 gallon, which could fit on that stand. how many in a 75 gallon, 4 foot tank.

3. in no way am I going to change the water daily. I AM willing to change 40-50% each week. is a large fluval canister and a few sponge filters OK?

4. can you suggest LED lights for that tank?

thanks! any advice is welcome!

best

Bob

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Bob and welcome to Simply. Given the tank limitations go for 10 gallons per adult fish and only go with adult fish since you are unwilling to do the WCs. However even with adult fish you may not be able to keep them healthy with one WC a week. I would suggest at least two or three 50% or better WCs. Juvies require large daily WCs and good food to grow them out properly.

I suggest you do some research in the beginner section to see if discus are the right fish for you.
Pat

[FishyRobert]

thank you! will do the research! sounds as though juveniles need more water changes. I will work on LARGE tank size per fish, and super filtration! thank you! bob

[John_Nicholson]

The correct answer for this is currently 0. Trying to raise small discus without doing proper maintenance will not work in the long run.

-john

[FishyRobert]

thank you John! sounds like adults are a bit easier. will do my reading. it took quite a while to get up to speed on 2 reef tanks! bob

[OC Discus]

Robert,

It's also generally accepted on sd that a 55 gallon tank is minimum size for adult discus because you need a group of at least 5 to minimize aggression, unless it is a breeding pair. The standard breeding tank is 29 gallons, but 20 is considered minimum. Welcome to the Wide World of Discus.

[nc0gnet0]

3. in no way am I going to change the water daily. I AM willing to change 40-50% each week. is a large fluval canister and a few sponge filters OK?

See you in the disease section soon.........

[kris2341]

how about if he changes 90%+ of the water weekly for adult discus?

I know some people just can't do several water changes in a week due to work schedules and all that but i figure if a 50% water change twice a week is a minimum, a 90% change weekly with daily food cleanup should be decent too right?

[Quintin]

Unfortunately there are no shortcuts with discus.Doing a 50% daily water change does not have to be a mission.use vacuum to siphon out dirt drain it strait out the window or drain if possible.then get aging barel and fill up tank from there with power head.Im a locksmith by trade and work 16hours a day.doing 50%per tank on all my tanks take about 30min.Im running 4 x 4foot 200L tanks with 6-8 adults per tank and in juvie tanks about 10-12 but they are only about 5cm-7cm size.juvie tanks get 80% daily.And it really only takes 30min.But if you do not like high maintenance fish then discus are probably not for you.hope this helps a bit.good luck on whatever you decide.and whatever you do dnt keep any pleco type fish in ur discus tank as they will latch on and suck the slime coat and they create pleanty waste

[nc0gnet0]

how about if he changes 90%+ of the water weekly for adult discus?

I know some people just can't do several water changes in a week due to work schedules and all that but i figure if a 50% water change twice a week is a minimum, a 90% change weekly with daily food cleanup should be decent too right?

If people would put half of the thought and money into how to make their water changes quicker and easier as they did how to reduce the amount of water changes needed, success in the hobby would be much greater.

-Rick

[OC Discus]

Some push the ten gallon rule just a hair with 7 in a 65 gal or 8 in a 75 gal, but a number of factors are key to initial success:

1) Barebottom tank wiping glass sides and bottom weekly so 100% of waste can be removed
2) Large Water change- 80%-100% weekly- If you insist on once weekly water change, You are well advised to get a pump system so you can quickly change all the water.
3) Discus only at first- other fish carry diseases they are immune to. Discus have never been exposed to these diseases. Therefore disease is very common in new community tanks.
4) Purigen is the best product on the market for removing the dissolved waste products that foul the water. I currently use 8 times the recommended amount for a 55 gallon tank in a reactor type setup.
5) Over filtration- Multiple filters to break the water surface across the length of the tank and remove waste products is key to success with your approach. Airstones will help move water (and waste) from the bottom of the tank and through the filters.
afriend has posted a thread on a low maintenance system. While it involves small daily water changes, a 100% weekly change can accomplish similar results. 100% often refers to anywhere from 80, 90 to 100%- enough so the fish are leaning in the water, but still able to breath.

You can keep adults with one weekly water change, but the margin of error is smaller at first. Cycling the tank is a matter to consider. Many on sd recommend fishless cycle. I have successfully cycled tanks with fish using bio spira. You just have to monitor all parameters daily and respond to raised ammonia with water change and new dose of bio spira. Call Tetra about where to obtain the product.

Best regards.



:)

I have had fish for a long time. I currently have 2 marine tanks. I consider myself a total discus beginner!

have one 40 gallon tank, 3 feet long, with 2 enormous fresh water angels and some bettas and catfish. doing very well.

dumb questions:

1. how many small discus can I put in the 40 gallon.? it has a large fluval filter. cant recall which one, but rated 80 gallons I think

2. how many discus in a 65 gallon, which could fit on that stand. how many in a 75 gallon, 4 foot tank.

3. in no way am I going to change the water daily. I AM willing to change 40-50% each week. is a large fluval canister and a few sponge filters OK?

4. can you suggest LED lights for that tank?

thanks! any advice is welcome!

best

Bob

[nc0gnet0]

4) Purigen is the best product on the market for removing the dissolved waste products that foul the water. I currently use 8 times the recommended amount for a 55 gallon tank in a reactor type setup.
5) Over filtration- Multiple filters to break the water surface across the length of the tank and remove waste products is key to success with your approach. At least one airstone will help move water (and waste) from the bottom of the tank and through the filters.

While these two approaches are all fine and good for the aesthetic value of the tank and give the illusion of sparkling clean water, in reality its still old dirty water in the tank. I get a kick out of the term "over filtration" Just exactly what is that? Your only going to develop a set amount of beneficial bacteria in your system determined on bio-load. And as long as you have enough filter media to support colonization of enough beneficial bacteria to keep the bio-load in balance, adding more serves little to no additional benefit.

You can argue that additional filtration will yield better mechanical filtration of debris, but unless your cleaning these filters on a daily basis, the crud is still in the tank. For instance, I use a drip coffee maker to make my morning coffee. That little white paper filter does an excellent job of keeping the coffee grounds out of the water. Still, I surely don't want to add a couple of tablespoons of uneaten fish food and fish poo to my coffee and assume the filter will remove it from my coffee now do I? Doing things in this matter and then deciding when to do a water change based on appearance is just like asking your child to clean his/her room and they just hide all the clutter and trash underneath the bed.

Purigen is nothing more than a synthetic porous inert polymer. Once again, while it indeed will remove small particles from the water column, it does not neutralize them. I have nothing against the stuff, but question some of the claims Seachem makes.

-Rick

[OC Discus]

I don't use the forums to argue, but to learn and share what I've learned.

No one is arguing that 100% daily water change is not best. But Rick, the end conclusion of your argument is if you don't do large daily water changes you may as well not do anything at all. Anything else you do is worthless. In that regard, you are wrong.

Why don't you provide some scientific proof that the claims regarding purigen are wrong? You are wrong in saying the effects are only aesthetic- visual. You are wrong about that. Many municipalities get drinking water from formerly waste water. The processes they use to clean the water are not just aesthetic- they actually improve the quality of the water.

Multiple filters do remove the large solid waste from the water, and purigen does keep much of the dissolved waste from circulating back into the water. Saying it doesn't is wrong.


While these two approaches are all fine and good for the aesthetic value of the tank and give the illusion of sparkling clean water, in reality its still old dirty water in the tank. I get a kick out of the term "over filtration" Just exactly what is that? Your only going to develop a set amount of beneficial bacteria in your system determined on bio-load. And as long as you have enough filter media to support colonization of enough beneficial bacteria to keep the bio-load in balance, adding more serves little to no additional benefit.

You can argue that additional filtration will yield better mechanical filtration of debris, but unless your cleaning these filters on a daily basis, the crud is still in the tank. For instance, I use a drip coffee maker to make my morning coffee. That little white paper filter does an excellent job of keeping the coffee grounds out of the water. Still, I surely don't want to add a couple of tablespoons of uneaten fish food and fish poo to my coffee and assume the filter will remove it from my coffee now do I? Doing things in this matter and then deciding when to do a water change based on appearance is just like asking your child to clean his/her room and they just hide all the clutter and trash underneath the bed.

Purigen is nothing more than a synthetic porous inert polymer. Once again, while it indeed will remove small particles from the water column, it does not neutralize them. I have nothing against the stuff, but question some of the claims Seachem makes.

-Rick

[OC Discus]

Check these links

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?75914-Does-anyone-use-Seachem-s-Purigen

http://www.amazon.com/Seachem-116016506-Purigen-100ml/product-reviews/B0002A5VK2

http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/cleaning-maintenance/114548-your-views-seachem-matrix-purigen.html

http://www.marinedepot.com/Seachem_Laboratories_Purigen_Carbon_Replacements_R esin_Chemical_Filter_Media-Seachem-SC3231-FIFMCHRM-vi.html

Again,

I'm not arguing that water changes are not the best option. I am saying the argument that nothing else helps improve water quality is wrong and misleading.

[nc0gnet0]

I am not unfamiliar with the product, I actually like the product and have used it in the past. What I disagree with is the claim be it direct or implied, that it's use would significantly reduce the intervals needed between water changes.


Why don't you provide some scientific proof that the claims regarding purigen are wrong? You are wrong in saying the effects are only aesthetic- visual. You are wrong about that. Many municipalities get drinking water from formerly waste water. The processes they use to clean the water are not just aesthetic- they actually improve the quality of the water.

To date I have worked at three Water treatment facilities on very large projects. One in Benton Harbor/St. Joseph, another in Grand Haven, and yet a third in Holland. Trust me when I say none of these facilities use purigen :) Now, I would be happy to go into a bit more detail on how these facilities do work (there is very little mechanical filtration, but rather "Settling ponds", chemicals, and aeration pools) if you like. The problem with your comparison is that an aquarium is setup in a loop, whereas much of the pre-filtration used for drinking/clean water is a one time event.


But Rick, the end conclusion of your argument is if you don't do large daily water changes you may as well not do anything at all. Anything else you do is worthless. In that regard, you are wrong.

That's not what I said at all, rather what your trying to claim in order to make your argument relevant. What I am and have been saying is that in most all cases what the OP wants to do for maintenance is terribly in-suffice. No amount of purigen or "over-filtration" is going to change that equation.

You use purigen and like it...I get that. But to continuously post their marketing jargon as truth is conspicuous at best. I could equally post the marketing for API Melafix and Primafix, does that make their claims true as well?

[OC Discus]

So where is the proof that Purigen fails to improve water quality? That is your claim and my question.

[musicmarn1]

very interesting!

What im hearing is that no matter WHAT filtration product or method is used, the crud unless it is taken out daily is still part of the system, ie water is flowing over it, none of these products or filter methods make the crud inert, the crud is still going to increase the nitrate (because we know our bacteria takes ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate) content of the tank system. Because it is in fact in a loop and the crud is not taken out of the loop it is not neutralized .

Its not just nitrate we are avoiding though right? if we have extremely low nitrate, and almost no particle matter in our tank, what else would be in the water that is still not optimum conditions for discus?

i know by vacuming and changing water daily, i am reducing the parasite/pathogen load of the water, but are there other components that are adversely going to affect my fish?

[FishyRobert]

thanks to ALL! esp. john nicholson and ncognito! here is my idea. daily water changes are a total pain in the neck. what if i take a 1 week vacation? here is what i did. my daughter got a tiny goldfish, an inch long. in a tiny aquarium. i put it in a 20 gallon tank with big canister filter. that fish lived 6 years and got enormous!

seems to me if you put 6 discus in a 50-70 gallon tank and need daily water changes, THAT TANK IS TOO SMALL FOR THE FISH..
perhaps you guys should use bigger tanks.
i have a 120 gallon reef tank.
i got a 150 gallon horse trough, made that into a sump with a HUGE skimmer. that tank is quite happy, change 25 gallons once a week. total system is 270 gallons. what if i got 6 discus in a 65 gallon, and made a HUGE sump? i work full time and exercise, not thrilled with daiily water changes! keep the ideas coming!

thanks all!
bob

[OC Discus]

Marnie,

That is what Rick is saying, but it is not correct. I understand the motivation- newbies are reading this and bla bla bla. But when an expert gives advice, it needs to be correct or he should admit it is not. Purigen "does" lock up organic matter and "prevent" it from fouling the water. There are obviously limits to this ability, but the claim that it doesn't work is false.


very interesting!

What im hearing is that no matter WHAT filtration product or method is used, the crud unless it is taken out daily is still part of the system, ie water is flowing over it, none of these products or filter methods make the crud inert, the crud is still going to increase the nitrate (because we know our bacteria takes ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate) content of the tank system. Because it is in fact in a loop and the crud is not taken out of the loop it is not neutralized .

Its not just nitrate we are avoiding though right? if we have extremely low nitrate, and almost no particle matter in our tank, what else would be in the water that is still not optimum conditions for discus?

i know by vacuming and changing water daily, i am reducing the parasite/pathogen load of the water, but are there other components that are adversely going to affect my fish?

[FishyRobert]

to john nicholson and incognito:

i could not seem to send a private message!

how many tanks do you have? sizes? how do you easily do water changes?

what if i put 1,2, or 3 discus in a 65 gallon?

would love any other advice or hints!
thank you!
bob

:)

[Second Hand Pat]

to john nicholson and incognito:

i could not seem to send a private message!

how many tanks do you have? sizes? how do you easily do water changes?

what if i put 1,2, or 3 discus in a 65 gallon?

would love any other advice or hints!
thank you!
bob

:)

Bob, you will be able to send a pm once you are a registered member which happens shortly after the 11 post.

[nc0gnet0]

So where is the proof that Purigen fails to improve water quality? That is your claim and my question.


That is what Rick is saying, but it is not correct. I understand the motivation- newbies are reading this and bla bla bla. But when an expert gives advice, it needs to be correct or he should admit it is not. Purigen "does" lock up organic matter and "prevent" it from fouling the water. There are obviously limits to this ability, but the claim that it doesn't work is false.

Seriously? Ok, let me get out my crayons and draw you a picture. First of all, I challenge you to find where I said it fails to improve water quality? The problem here is how does one define "water quality". If your definition is simply that the water looks "clean" then yes, it does in fact impact water quality in that regards. Unfortunately that is only one small piece of the puzzle when looking at the overall picture of water quality. It, in fact, can lead some people to see this "clean" water and then decide that a water change is in fact not needed on that particular day..... In this regards, has the product helped or hurt the fish?

What is purigen exactly? To listen to OC it would lead one to believe it is this miracle product that somehow and someway makes dissolved organics and small particulate disappear. All the stuff is really is a small synthetic polymer bead with many pours. Minute particulate then gets stuck in these "pours" and removed from the water stream. However, this material is not neutralized, but rather just stuck there just like a stray FDBW would be stuck in whatever mechanical filtration media one might be using. Water is still circulating around this very material. If it is organic, it is still available for any micro-organism to feed on, be they benign or possibly harmful. Beneficial bacterial will also use this (purigen) material to colonize and feed off this material, just like they do any other substrate in your tank. The eventual by product of this is....Nitrate.

Use of these type of methods do absolutely NOTHING to reduce bacterial or pathogenic load in the tank Their use, often combined with the false belief of clean water (based on visual appearance) are quite often counter-productive. When I do a water change in my bare bottom tank I get 99% of the crud out of the tank. When one does it in a tank with several filters (again "over filtration) that same crud remains in the tank, albeit stuck in the filter medium.

To date I can only think of one product that has any significant impact on pathogenic load (other than chemicals) and that is a UV filter (if and only if properly implemented). Now, it you were to take that UV filter of a significant size and turnover rate, and couple it to the output of your purigen reactor, then and only then would you have made enough impact on water quality to really matter....in my opinion. But, at the end of the day, this is still not the complete picture, and nothing is going to work better than a good old fashioned water change.


-Rick

[nc0gnet0]

to john nicholson and incognito:

i could not seem to send a private message!

how many tanks do you have? sizes? how do you easily do water changes?

what if i put 1,2, or 3 discus in a 65 gallon?

would love any other advice or hints!
thank you!
bob

:)

Actually, your on the right tract here. If your not going to be able to do frequent water changes, then your best bet is to reduce stocking levels. Bear in mind though that discus are a schooling fish and do much better in groups of at least 5 or more.

Also be aware that heathy discus are actually a fairly hardy fish. However, they do exist in warmer water than most other fresh water fish, which bacteria and parasites thrive in. They also like a high protein diet...once again, high protein elevated temps, perfect breeding ground for pathogens,

As for your question in regards for taking a vacation, healthy discus can do just fine under these circumstances, just reduce their feeding (or stop altogether) for that period. It's not that a day off here or there is going to be the death of your fish, but long term exposure to subpar water conditions will. Chronic vs acute.

[OC Discus]

Let me reply to a few of your statements:

"let me get out my crayons and draw you a picture."

This is the kind of remark that causes many on sd to consider you an arrogant jerk. Not my words, but I agree with them.


"First of all, I challenge you to find where I said it fails to improve water quality?"

You say it in this reply. Your last remark is

"only in combination with uv does it make any significant difference in water quality"

That's not true. I'm not referring to parasites or bacteria, simply to organic waste.


"What is purigen exactly? All the stuff is really is a small synthetic polymer bead with many pours. Minute particulate then gets stuck in these "pours" and removed from the water stream. However, this material is not neutralized, but rather just stuck there just like a stray FDBW would be stuck in whatever mechanical filtration media one might be using. "

Actually, it is very different from a blood worm stuck in filter floss. What is stuck in the purigen are many of the organic compounds that make the water toxic and the fish sick. These are not just flowing through the purigen back into the water. They are trapped in the purigen and not flowing back into the water. The result is water quality is improved. True, parasites can feed on them, but that's not the point in question. For a tank free of parasites that will not be an issue. True, bacteria can feed on them, but with proper maintenance that won't be an issue.

"When I do a water change in my bare bottom tank I get 99% of the crud out of the tank. When one does it in a tank with several filters (again "over filtration) that same crud remains in the tank, albeit stuck in the filter medium. "

This is how multiple filters also increases biological filtration in a bare bottom tank. A 55 g tank with one filter rated at 55 g will become clogged and ineffective twice as fast as the same tank with two filters. The two filters will also house twice as much biological media, extending the time before the water gets foul. With six or eight times the amount of filtration, with floss changed regularly, and biological media, the tank water will not deteriorate at the same rate as a tank with one simple filter. This is in response to the suggestion that increased filtration is of no benefit and there is no way to increase biological filtration.

"But, at the end of the day, this is still not the complete picture, and nothing is going to work better than a good old fashioned water change. "

I agree with this statement. The other statements are just not 100% accurate. I also understand your motive in making the other statements. That still doesn't make them accurate.




Seriously? Ok, let me get out my crayons and draw you a picture.



-Rick

[kris2341]

Ok, here is my idea,

Dear Fishy, if you are serious about keeping discus, I highly recommend setting up a system as we all recommend, which is a spacious bare bottom tank loaded with discus at a rate of about 1 adult per 10 gallons. Heated to 82F, and with daily water changes of 50%+

Now before you roll your eyes or shake your head, keep in mind that this can actually be done fairly easily, if you have the right equipment, on top of that, obtaining the right stuff is usually relatively cheap compared to the fish since i am sure you noticed by now... discus range anywhere from $20-200 a fish depending on size.

THE STUFF


First, get a water storage drum, or IBC tote or set of drums that approach the size of your tank. ranges from $15-$100 depending on size, MAKE SURE THIS IS SAFE FOR POTABLE WATER!

A heater to get the water in the drum to the temperature of your tank, in this case, 82F. Feel free to get something cheap or nice, as long as it works and holds.
An air pump and air stone with air tubing to stick into the barrel to aerate.
get a nice pump you can fit into the drum, if needed cut a hole in the top of the drum. $50-$100

get a nice hose for said pump that can reach from where you set the barrel and can reach your tank. This can even be your aquarium substrate siphon with an adapter, that is what i do.


THE PROCEDURE


what I simply do is siphon the bottom of my tank daily, it is bare bottom so this usually only takes 5-10 minutes,

then i set the tube pointing into a corner to drain out completely.

then I sit down and watch TV while the tank is draining out.

Once i hear gurgling, I take the output of my siphon, connect it to my water barrel pump, and pump fresh water in

i go back to the TV or make a snack.

Once I hear the water no longer splashing into the tank, i go to the barrel and unplug the pump, then pull the siphon from the tank and I am finished!
I then go and refill the barrel with water from the tap, I usually use a bit of warm water too to avoid using so much heater power, add Seachem safe and let it sit for tomorrow.


Of course, if filling up from a large reservior, I would have to pay more attention to avoid overflows but having a 55 gallon barrel on a 60 gallon tank is excellent for that.

Since i let my siphon tube drain to the bottom, this usually accounts as a 95% water change and my fish are flopping around, THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM!

At least as long as the water is replaced quickly.

This is what i do daily.

You could even take this a step further and integrate it into your tank if you can drill it. Apply a bottom drain with valve and a fresh water input at the top with a check valve.

Open drain valve to drain water, close it when done, power pump up and let it run!

[FishyRobert]

:D

thank you Rick! i did TONS of reading before my 2 reef tanks, which are doing great.

OK, seems like i want FIVE discus, not 1 or 2. to prevent fighting?

how about a 75 gallon tank, 4 foot tank with a BIG sump? consider the price, one time of a large sump ($150 for my horse trough), versus YEARS of DAILY water changes! 5 discus. even 50% twice a week beats 50% daiily.

1. should i buy adults? save me some effort and water changes?

2. where do i buy the discus? i live north of boston, mass. my friend got some that look great from a store in framingham. they have them in my local petco, and the manager has them at home and said they do great and are easy to keep.

3. how many tanks do you have? sizes? how long take you to change the water each day?

thanks. i will do ALL the research before buying anything.

bob

[FishyRobert]

thank you Kris 2341! just what i need. specific information! how many tanks do you have? i have 4. 20 gallon breed bettas, 40 gallon freshwater huge angels and small cory catfish, 75 reef tank T5 lights, 120 gallon reef with metal halides.

best

bob

[nc0gnet0]

First of all, I challenge you to find where I said it fails to improve water quality?


You say it in this reply. Your last remark is "only in combination with uv does it make any significant difference in water quality" That's not true. I'm not referring to parasites or bacteria, simply to organic waste

You seemed to omit the part where I quantified the statement that it was my opinion. Also, that statement was made after I made the challenge, not prior, making your argument mute.


Actually, it is very different from a blood worm stuck in filter floss. What is stuck in the purigen are the organic compounds that make the water toxic and the fish sick. These are not just flowing through the purigen back into the water. They are trapped in the purigen and not flowing back into the water. The result is water quality is improved.

Well thanks for clarifying that for me, I always though a blood worm was organic, but now we all know otherwise. And organic compounds don't make the water toxic (well at least not the ones commonly found in a aquarium anyways) but the micro-organisms that feed on them do have adverse effects.


This is how multiple filters also increases biological filtration in a bare bottom tank. A 55 g tank with one filter rated at 55 g will become clogged and ineffective twice as fast as the same tank with two filters. The two filters will also house twice as much biological media, extending the time before the water gets foul. With six or eight times the amount of filtration, with floss changed regularly, and biological media, the tank water will not deteriorate at the same rate as a tank with one simple filter. This is in response to the suggestion that increased filtration is of no benefit.

This statement is just so wrong on so many different levels I do not know where to begin. For one if you have clogged filters then it's a pretty safe bet your water quality sucks. I could care less if you have one or 100 canisters. Two filters will house 2x the amount of medium yes, and what exactly is the point of that? It will still only support the amount of beneficial bacteria that the bio-load of the tank will support. As for your clogging the filter argument, thank you very much, it supports my argument.

As for the arrogant jerk comment, be that as it may, I would much rather be an arrogant jerk than a clueless one. I actually thought that up to this point my posts where very much on topic, it's not my fault they happen to contradict yours.

Have a great day!

-Rick

[nc0gnet0]

:D

thank you Rick! i did TONS of reading before my 2 reef tanks, which are doing great.

OK, seems like i want FIVE discus, not 1 or 2. to prevent fighting?

Yes, having 5 spreads out the aggression.


how about a 75 gallon tank, 4 foot tank with a BIG sump? consider the price, one time of a large sump ($150 for my horse trough), versus YEARS of DAILY water changes! 5 discus. even 50% twice a week beats 50% daiily.

A sump will increase water volume and 2x a week is twice as good as once a week.


1. should i buy adults? save me some effort and water changes?

Yes


2. where do i buy the discus? i live north of boston, mass. my friend got some that look great from a store in framingham. they have them in my local petco, and the manager has them at home and said they do great and are easy to keep.

In your area I would check out Hans, but any of our sponsors should be able to hook you up with some nice adults. Avoid Petco at all costs!


3. how many tanks do you have? sizes? how long take you to change the water each day?

Thats really not a fair question. I have 28 tanks, many over stocked as I am a breeder and most of my tanks get 2x water changes daily. With young fish this is extremely important. I do not do the "display tank" thing. To make water changes faster I have several high volume pumps for both removing and adding water. there are other ways, but if your only going to be having one tank the way I would go.


thanks. i will do ALL the research before buying anything.

bob

good luck

Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

Ok guys, some good discussion but let's keep it civil and kindly do not make me ask again.

[OC Discus]

I'm done

[kris2341]

thank you Kris 2341! just what i need. specific information! how many tanks do you have? i have 4. 20 gallon breed bettas, 40 gallon freshwater huge angels and small cory catfish, 75 reef tank T5 lights, 120 gallon reef with metal halides.

best

bob

I have a 60 gallon tank that is bare bottom where i keep my 'reject' discus, i think i will clear this tank out today and put my reject fish in the my rack.

i have a 4x40 gallon breeder rack in my room that has one tank loaded with 8 baby discus, the rest are acting as water reservoirs atm.

I have a 95 gallon planted hexagon tank in my room that I am trying to get the hang of.

I have a 1000 gallon african cichlid pond that I am busy trying to revamp the heating system for.

I have a 7.5 gallon rimless tank at my desk here, simply because I always wanted a rimless tank. Currently empty.

I am still a novice at discus but I have been keeping fish for most of my life. So I am pretty quick on the uptake.

[Quintin]

I would like to use purigen with adequite filtration with 50 % water change daily.Just cant afford the purigen yet.but it would make my water cryatal clear too.thats just me

[nc0gnet0]

I would like to use purigen with adequite filtration with 50 % water change daily.Just cant afford the purigen yet.but it would make my water cryatal clear too.thats just me

And that's just exactly how it should be used. And I have nothing against the product, I just don't think its use has a significant impact on the amount of water than should be changed.

[FishyRobert]

:)

thank you Rick!!!!

wish i lived closer to you! do you ship fish to massachusetts?

do you have another job, or breed for a living? lots of work for you to do with 28 tanks! have photos of your fish room??? would love to see.
today my readings:

my tap water. 0.5 to 0.7 ppm Phosphate. i hear that is not harmful to FRESH water fish.
my reef tanks. 1ppm phosphate, on the high side. i should reduce that.fish and corals doing fine.

my 40 gallon freshwater angel tank. 2.5 ppm nitrates. this has a fluval 406 filter, 50% water change each week. could discus survive these numbers?
what is your typical tank size????

i believe my basement has room for a 4 foot tank, live 75-90 gallons.
do you sell fish by mail? getting cold here in massachusetts!!!!

i am now gravitating to ONE NICE 75 gallon or bigger tank.

would love any hints and ideas!
best

bob

[kris2341]

as far as i know, phosphates only contribute to plants but are of no direct detriment to fish.

as far as discus surviving in the parameters you speak of, the answer is generally yes, but in poor health. They will not grow to the standards of the discus keepers here, they will not grow to any good size and be stunted. They are also MUCH more susceptible to disease.

[Quintin]

Its completely up to you.post update in 6 months

[FishyRobert]

thanks Kris! do you mean the 2.5 ppm nitrates are too high?. ; i think phosphate is no problem. the angels are HUGE and very happy, along with 3 bettas and a dozen cory catfish!!!!

i intend to buy ADULT discus and avoid juveniles altogether!

always interested in more hints from you guys! thanks
bob

[kris2341]

the upkeep of discus is much more complex than merely keeping your Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate undetectable. It is about giving them as pristine water conditions as possible.

I do not think there is a straight answer for this, but basically, the build up of dissolved organics in the water seem to hamper the growth and overall health of the discus, as well as provide fuel for pathogens in the water.

people have already tried all sorts of means to care for discus and so far, the almighty water change has been the ONLY means available to the hobbyist to handle the problem. Purigen is the closest media available to being able to rid the water of dissolved organic compounds, but even it isnt good enough from what we have been seeing.

Buying adults means that you manage to avoid the issue if having stunted fish, which is good but considering that they are super expensive fish at that point, people wind up wanting to take care of them to the best of their ability using daily water changes.