Cycling question

[Gunn]

Can i use the expelled carbon sacks from my fluval 406 to cycle my 110g? I'm trying to avoid using ammonia if possible. Appreciate the help!

[Larry Grenier]

I never use ammonia or torture fish to cycle an aquarium. I always fill the last 20% from existing aquariums and move a cycled sponge filter or sponge from another tank's canister filter. I would think that using the sponge (bio & mechanical filtration) would be much better than using the carbon sacks (chemical filtration).

[kris2341]

you can take a portion of your current bio media to cycle your aquarium, but keep in mind, this is a substitute for the bacteria starter, not the food for the bacteria (ammonia).

I recall you said something about having a bottle of nutrafin cycle. The carbon sack and/or bio media is a substitute for this but risks exposing the tank to bad pathogens your future discus residents may not be immune to. The nutrafin cycle is considered a clean bacteria culture that is free of undesirables.

What I believe you are looking for is a substitute for ammonia. A pinch of fish food can do this just fine but will make your tank a bit smelly after awhile.

[Gunn]

O, ok. I won't need to keep adding the flakes once it's cycled because I'm adding my pair of Plecos correct?

Or can I use nutrifin cycle and put my disgusting foam from my fluval 406 in pantyhose and drop it right in?

[musicmarn1]

putting it in a pantyhose wont allow water to go properly through it like in a filter, so thats not such a good idea but also just bear in mind, if your fish in the 406 carry something, that freshly shipped discus are susceptible too……you are not QT'ing *properly* :)

[Gunn]

Lol good Lord. So add my cycle bacteria, add some flakes and wait for the cycle to complete. Then add my plecos?

I've always just used substrate from an existing tank. This way is a lot more involved!

Thanx again for the answers!

[MendoMan]

Why don't you do a little studying on the fish less cycle? IMO it's the only way to go for a Discus tank. If you do it correctly you stand zero chance of any pathogens.

[kris2341]

that is exactly what he is doing, but the problem is he has no safe source for pure ammonia so we all have to go through the runaround to find a method he can use that is safe.

Well, as far as the 110g, as long as you feel confident in the health of your plecos and that they carry no harmful pathogens. (did you get them from a good source? etc.) I think you can just house them in the 110g as the cycling aid in a traditional fished cycle. The problem with this though is that a mere handful of plecos is nowhere near the bio load of a group of discus unless you feed them a pile of cucumbers or something.

[Gunn]

My albino bristlenose came from a friend who bred them. He had them in their own 25g tank for over a year before I got them and put them in my 55g with my juvenile wild bristlenose. They are very healthy and active, I could always go borrow a dozen danios from my uncle, but then I'm concerned about pathogens from them.

[rickztahone]

My albino bristlenose came from a friend who bred them. He had them in their own 25g tank for over a year before I got them and put them in my 55g with my juvenile wild bristlenose. They are very healthy and active, I could always go borrow a dozen danios from my uncle, but then I'm concerned about pathogens from them.

You want to LIMIT the amount of fish that will contaminate your tank. You can also do a fishless cycle with plants. Google fishless cycle like others have suggested and you will see that it isn't so difficult.

Get some ammonia from Ace Hardware and you will be good to go.

[Gunn]

I cannot find pure ammonia,.They all have one or two additives. I live on a small island in Canada, as kris said, i do not have that readily available. I have done much research on the fishless cycle, I'm just curious if there is a simpler way to do it.

[rickztahone]

I cannot find pure ammonia,.They all have one or two additives. I live on a small island in Canada, as kris said, i do not have that readily available. I have done much research on the fishless cycle, I'm just curious if there is a simpler way to do it.

That explains a lot. My recommendation would be to get some cycled media from an existent tank (if available) and put it in the filter that will be set up. You can do this the day the new fish come in.

Here is the bottom line though, and you will not find many people recommending this, but you CAN start a tank with no bacteria what-so-ever and dump the fish in. You will just need to do heavy daily water changes until you build up a bio-colony. You must monitor daily, maybe even twice a day for the first few weeks. This is not advised for a beginner, but seeing that you have limited options, this is a route that you can consider if all else fails. Do your research though on what I am advising as well. Not everyone can do it successfully, and the last thing I would want is for you to lose fish for not doing it correctly, but I assure you, it can be done.

[Gunn]

That's the last thing I want as well. I just got word the breeder is going to send 2 seeded sponge filters that came from the tank that has been holding my fish.

This being said, as I'm acclimating the bags I just drop those sponges on the bases, make sure the temp is right and I'm good to go?

[kris2341]

Here is the bottom line though, and you will not find many people recommending this, but you CAN start a tank with no bacteria what-so-ever and dump the fish in. You will just need to do heavy daily water changes until you build up a bio-colony. You must monitor daily, maybe even twice a day for the first few weeks. This is not advised for a beginner, but seeing that you have limited options, this is a route that you can consider if all else fails. Do your research though on what I am advising as well. Not everyone can do it successfully, and the last thing I would want is for you to lose fish for not doing it correctly, but I assure you, it can be done.

This is what I did with my juvies from Mishka, she simply recommended I do heavy water changes for awhile for the bio to establish while the fish are in there. Worked great! BUT it does require diligence. I do 100% water changes daily so I typically can throw fish in any tank with such a method. If you miss a single day with no bio filter though, the consequences could be dire.

I also think this is extremely harsh on your bio because you do not age your water. You plan to stick the hose and conditioner in right? I am no expert on it but I'd think any contact with chlorine/chloramine to bacteria however brief would prove fatal to it unlike fish that would require awhile for it to sink in.

[rickztahone]

That's the last thing I want as well. I just got word the breeder is going to send 2 seeded sponge filters that came from the tank that has been holding my fish.

This being said, as I'm acclimating the bags I just drop those sponges on the bases, make sure the temp is right and I'm good to go?

Yes simple as that.

Do it in this order:


Unbox the discus
Float all the discus in your tank (which should be up to desired temp)
While you are waiting for the temp to match the bags (20 minutes or so), but open the sponge filter bag
place the sponge filters in the tank and attach air tubing
after the 20 minutes are up, drop and plop the discus in
Make sure your lights are off the first day and no need to feed
Next day, turn on lights if desired, and pinch a small amount of food to see if they are hungry.



DONE :)

[seanyuki]

Great article here.

The most difficult part of the fishless cycling procedure, according to many postings on the message boards, involves finding a good source of Ammonia. Ammonia used should be free of surfactants, perfumes, and colourants. Unfortunately, not everyone has access to ACS grade ammonium hydroxide. Always read the ingredients on the bottle. The best sources for Pure or Clear Ammonia are discount grocery stores or hardware stores. Often, the no-name brand is the stuff you're looking for. Some other people have reported success with the following brand names of ammonia: Top Crest or Whirl Clear Ammonia. To paraphrase RTR: If it doesn't list the ingredients, or say Clear Ammonia (or Pure Ammonia or 100% Ammonia, or Pure Ammonium Hydroxide), then leave it on the shelf and look elsewhere. Shake the bottle if you're not sure about it... ammonia with surfactants will foam, while good ammonia will not.

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/biology/nitrogen_cycle/fishless_cycle.shtml

Hth.

[Gunn]

Excellent! Ty!!

Yes kris, straight out at 84, straight back in at 84. But I have constructed a 34g thin rectangular container that's 4 feet high and 1 foot deep incase I do decide to age my water. As I was limited for space 34g was the most I had room for

[aovifo]

MICROBE-LIFT / Nite-Out ll is the best bacteria product by far, from my experience.
It's really complete cycle in few days.
I use amonia, it's simple and easy and very cleen and safe, and give wonderful results. After few days I put 10 ppm ammonia and in 24 hours the ammonia and nitrit are zero. So I know exactly were I put my fish.
I use ammonium chlorid powder, odorless, can be found in chemicals supply stores.
Best to add sodium bicarbonat (baking soda) to feed bacteria with CO2. Can give more details if you'll want.

[DISCUS STU]

I've researched and been told that expelled carbon may actually release pollutants back into the water once they reached the end of their adsorbtion limit. Much better to seed bio bacteria from other cycled tanks that your sure are clean and won't be bringing parasites and diseases with them. NutriFin or one of the other bio starter cultures is a good way to go but they don't work overnight though they are much faster than some of the other methods.

I've tried to add ammonia but usually ended up with too much ammonia even after many water changes.

I stopped using carbon along time ago and found that issues like Hole-in-the-Head and lateral line disease which used to be much more common with my fish went away once I stopped using carbon. This includes resin based carbons like ChemiPure. It may seem counter intuitive but Discus and carbon don't seem to mix well. The theory holds that carbon may be removing too much in the way of minerals and trace elements from the water and may also be releasing chemicals back after it's spent. It's almost impossible to know when the carbon is spent and you're throwing away good carbon or if it's done. You may also want to look at Purigen as a chemical filter media.

[Gunn]

Wow that's really good to know, I was just thinking of changing up my fluval 406 supporting my 55g. What would you recommend i put in the 3 trays?

[DISCUS STU]

Wow that's really good to know, I was just thinking of changing up my fluval 406 supporting my 55g. What would you recommend i put in the 3 trays?

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the 406. I use Eheims which don't have trays. As a four stage process in my Eheims I use...

1st - ceramic noodles (Eheim Efimech
2nd - course plastic pad
3rd - filter floss (good for 2-4 washings under a faucet)
4th - Bio media (Eheim efisubstrat)

These days due to the forum I'm using Perigren. Check it out. But otherwise I haven't used a chemical filter media in about 13 years.

[Gunn]

I'm going to have to look into it! My 55g planted sand tank will be getting overhauled and going to play sand/driftwood as my show tank and my 110g will continue to be my bb growout tank.

Just wondering why people say to put warm water in your tank initially? I put it in cold and my 2x 150w eheim jagers had it heated to 84 by this morning.

Thanx in advance for the replies!

[kris2341]

In my case, gas is cheaper to heat with than electric.

If nothing is in the tank, it really doesn't matter what you heat with aside from cost. With the discus though, as you know, it is always better to put water that is as warm as their tank water or slightly warmer.

When I have to do a 100% water change real quick, I mix my hot and cold water to hit 82F as that is my tank temp according to my thermometers but sometimes I wind up going over. I wait a few minutes with the barrel and then I pump it in. I added 84F conditioned water to their tank with no issues

[PhilNH]

If you have multiple tanks, you might want to consider having multiple versions of the same filter. For example, I use Aquaclear filters. When I establish a new tank, I will take the bag of ceramic noodles from one of my established tanks and use it in the new filter. I put the bag of noodles that came with the new filter into the older filter. (Another benefit of having multiple versions of the same filter is that you can often save parts from older filters to keep on hand as spares.)

I recognize the risk of transfer of pathogens. However, as a practical matter, unless you keep truly distinct sets of equipment, wouldn't there be other potential ways of transfer of pathogens, including buckets, nets, water changing hoses etc.

Philip

[PhilNH]

PS

With an Aquaclear, you can do the same by swapping the sponge portions. Either way, the filter still works because beneficial bacteria remain in the other media portions of the filter.

Philip

[Jbell]

Yet another good read!