An Alternative to a Generator..The inverter

[brewmaster15]

Hi,
I thought I'd share some info on Inverters here as an emergency power supply. I used to use these long before I had a generator , and still do on camping trips . I also have one in my bug out bag and road trip pack. I know most here use generators and they are a great power supply, one that I strongly suggest that anyone get if they can afford it and run one. Some Can't though, so what do you do?

Generators are big, bulky , and noisy. They take lots of fuel to run, They have lots of parts to clean, and can give off noxious fumes. They have a ton of upsides, in that they can run your home as well as your tanks, if you can get gas, propane etc..

In a case where you just can't have a generator, a battery inverter is a life saver. As a matter of fact, its the perfect add on to have in addition to a generator.


The basic premise of a generator is , it burns a fuel to make electricity. The basic premise of an inverter is it takes DC electricity stored in a battery and converts it to Household AC electricity.
The battery used can be any rechargeable battery , like a car battery, but ideally a Deep cycle Marine Battery is what you want. I used my car for years as a power supply for my fishroom in storms....but it means running the car every so often. A Deep cycle Battery will last alot longer and can be drained alot more with out damage. You would charge that battery by using a battery charger, or even solar panels

A basic system is like this... as found in the tree house I build with my kids...

http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/20141203_134636_zpsfd4cccfa.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/BREW-PC/20141203_134636_zpsfd4cccfa.jpg.html)

In this picture I have a small rechargeable sealed battery.. .. Theres a solar panel here outside that charges the battery... You can see the small "diehard" inverter. Thats a 425 watt inverter... Not alot of power in it, but add up whats in your tanks as far as watts and you may find something this small is all you need.>>the real important part is this size of the battery. Most people here probably had to buy a car battery at one time... you may have heard of cold cranking amps....or CCA. Thats a measure important for a car starting, but for our purposes we want batteries that are measured in aH. Amp Hours. The tree house battery here is small....35 amp hours....so its not going to last that long. That means the battery can put out 35 amps continuously for 1 hour, or supply a current of 17.5 amp to a load for exactly 2 hour,etc. I'm not electrician here, I just know one thing... The more amp Hours, the longer I get power.

Solar panel for the tree house...
http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/20141203_134544_zps6b27e3db.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/BREW-PC/20141203_134544_zps6b27e3db.jpg.html)

So basically... You have a battery to hold electricity.. a means of generating electricity ( the solar panel here ) or it could be a battery changer in in house, heck it could be a bike powered generator or treadmill. You'v got an inverter that takes the stored DC electricity and changes it to AC power for you to run the lap top, lights and fan in the treehouse or a fish tank in the house.


Only other thing you need is something t control how much electricity the battery is given ti store A good modern battery changer will do that, but in a solar panel set up... you have a "charge controller" that does this...
http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/20141203_134437_zpsc3ff4135.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/BREW-PC/20141203_134437_zpsc3ff4135.jpg.html)

http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/inverter/20141203_134636z_zpsdfe712f9.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/BREW-PC/inverter/20141203_134636z_zpsdfe712f9.jpg.html)

Thats pretty much it in a nutshell. If you wanted to build this system..

Battery runs about $30-45
inverter... $15- 45 ..that Die hard is over priced... you can far better dollar wise.
solar panel... they keep getting cheaper... that one is a 15-20 watt panel..was about $40 on ebay.
maybe $10 in wire..

total cost$100-150


Thats the basics, now I'll expand a bit. Its become yet another hobby of mine. Electricians feel free to jump in.

-al

Systems been running now a year or more and works flawlessly

[brewmaster15]

So for some power backup for fish tanks we would want a beefier system.. Something that can give more power, be charged easily indoors until the power goes out and you need it. Its going to need to be able to safely process a good bit more DC into AC power. Luckily the options out there are awesome, largely because of the green energy/solar movement.

So heres some things we will use...

The battery,
You can get some Nice long lasting AGM sealed batteries that will cost alot of money, but don't spill and have a great life span... I went cheap as I am storing this in the garage.... Walmart Deepcycle marine battery.Its a flooded lead acid battery similar to whats in your car, but can be drained deeper. It comes with a 2 year warranty...and costs less than $110.
http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/20141203_133156_zps48dedd07.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/BREW-PC/20141203_133156_zps48dedd07.jpg.html)

[brewmaster15]

Its a 114 amp hour battery... 12 V DC

http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/20141203_133328_zpsaafeb253.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/BREW-PC/20141203_133328_zpsaafeb253.jpg.html)

or if you get 2.. you can wire them together in parallel and you would have 228 amp hours still at 12 V DC

[brewmaster15]

For inverter... you can find many that easily generate 1500- 2000 watts. I have a bunch here for different things.. The one I will use in the demo is a cheapo Ebay inverter,....

http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/20141203_133340A_zps61290245.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/BREW-PC/20141203_133340A_zps61290245.jpg.html)

Notice the 2 different watts rating...

1100 watts and 2200 watts Peak. The 1100 watts is what it can put out countinuously.. The 2200 watts is a surge value. Its supposed to be able to do put out this much for a short burst. This is because some electronics need more electricity to start initially. I've found that most inverters really sugar coat this value... especially in the low end inverters. I would not trust this one to past 1500 watts as a Peak.

[brewmaster15]

A note on inverters... most good ones do not come with wires to connect them to batteries as these can be pricey and are largely dependent on your needs. This inverter came with wires, ones that really should not be used in any application. The wires are way to thin for a battery like I am using here..would be okay for a small car battery and very small load which is their intent probably. They connect to the battery via a cheap clamp.. Bolted in is much better and really want you want for a good solid and safe connection.

They are 8 gauge wire...

http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/20141203_133437_zpscccfb19d.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/BREW-PC/20141203_133437_zpscccfb19d.jpg.html)

My research showed that when you are using these inverters you really want a heavy gauge wire. .. for instance a 6 gauge wire is rated for 115 amps Max. .. 8 gauge wire is thinner than 6.. . The length of the wire is important too.. You don't want 20 feet between the battery and inverter or you have a voltage droop. I shoot for cable lengths or under 6 feet...4-5 is good if you need more you can upsize the wire .. Doesn't matter if the wire is thicker than needed. The wire should also be stranded..not solid one piece... It conducts better. Many use welding cable...Its what I use.

Obviously you will want to use extension cords to carry the inverters power to where you need it... Theres usually several outlets on an inverter. Be sure to use a good quality extension cord and pay attention to the ratings on it.


As a side note.... really large inverters are hard wired into the house for the off the grid or supplimental to the Grid electricity when using a solar panel system. All those houses you see with solar panels are using the same basic system. Solar panels make Electricity, its stored in a battery bank, routed thru an inverter and into the house as AC for use in all our appliances... Its pretty simple really.

[brewmaster15]

So I pitched this wire and made my own cable... I went with 4 gauge stranded wire on this inverter...

http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/20141203_133629_zpseb9fd04f.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/BREW-PC/20141203_133629_zpseb9fd04f.jpg.html)

heres 4 gauge wire side by side with the 8 gauge that the inverter came with...

http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/20141203_133520_zps039af5c8.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/BREW-PC/20141203_133520_zps039af5c8.jpg.html)


big difference !

had to crimp on some terminals to fit the battery and inverter...
http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/20141203_134004_zps123422bb.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/BREW-PC/20141203_134004_zps123422bb.jpg.html)

and connect...
http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/20141203_134309_zps87a5621b.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/BREW-PC/20141203_134309_zps87a5621b.jpg.html)

[Second Hand Pat]

I see another sticky coming :D

[kris2341]

I built one of these as a kid, was some good fun...

Though my room got filled with smoke as I accidentally dropped a wire across the two battery terminals, man that was a mess...

[brewmaster15]

I built one of these as a kid, was some good fun...

Though my room got filled with smoke as I accidentally dropped a wire across the two battery terminals, man that was a mess...

Yeah not something you want to do!

[brewmaster15]

This is going to be a work in progress so bear with me..

[MKD]

Al,

I played with 1600W inverter before connect directly to battery, it did not work on Honda CRV but worked on Chevy Tahoe . I was not sure i did it right or not or was missing something. Does regular battery (from 4 cynlinders car) handle high inverter?

[brewmaster15]

One thing I have say is I have learned alot playing around with this stuff.. The whole wire gauge thing makes no sense to me... The smaller the number the thicker the wire... right? well sort of. Some of the inverters I have are pretty big... 2000 watt / 4000 peak... They require some heavy duty wire... For the novices here... the way the gauges go in descending order...


8
6
4
2
0... where 0 is the thickest

then it gets crazy..
1/0
2/0
4/0
where 4/0 is the thickest of all of them... 4/0 wire is rated for 440 amps. I have some of this I plan on using on another project... just to show the gauge difference...

Heres 4/0 gauge and 4 gauge side by side.

http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/20141203_133755A_zps04058a90.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/20141203_133755A_zps04058a90.jpg.html)

[brewmaster15]

Al,

I played with 1600W inverter before connect directly to battery, it did not work on Honda CRV but worked on Chevy Tahoe . I was not sure i did it right or not or was missing something. Does regular battery (from 4 cynlinders car) handle high inverter?

Tony,
From what I know, alot of inverters have a shut off built in that if the battery voltage drops to a certain level... ,usually 10-11 volts I think, it shuts off. You can get that by drawing too much from the battery, or the cables could have been too small or long and that caused the voltage drop that tripped the shut off. My guess is it was the first.. was the car shut off or running when you tried?

-al

[brewmaster15]

Another thing that these inverters don't come stock with yet mention is the mysterious inline fuse. You are reading the instructions as you set it up and come across a reference to a recommended fuse not includes. For the 1100 watt inverter above it called for a 150 amp fuse...and gave not much more info. The inverter has has built in fuses so I was really confused. Much time latter and lots of readiing... figured it out. Whats often used is a fuse type ANL. These are used alot by people that have those really loud car audio systems.

Looks like this...

http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/20141203_134132_zpse961ded7.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/BREW-PC/20141203_134132_zpse961ded7.jpg.html)

the fuse inside is supposed to melt and break the connection... you can see the center of the fuse here..

http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/20141203_134155_zps5bf9dc2a.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/BREW-PC/20141203_134155_zps5bf9dc2a.jpg.html)

Okay , so ordered these... not that hard the part costs $7..the fuses are 10 for $10. And one holder usually works with most wire sizes up to 1/0 gauge.


Installing this was a tad tough, its hard cutting that wire neatly!

[brewmaster15]

BTW.. I came across some DIYers that put the Fuse on the black ground wire... It needs to be on the Red Positive cable, and should be as close to the battery as possible... I put mine in about 1 foot from the terminal.

Be sure that both Positive and Ground Cables are the same length!

[brewmaster15]

I know I am jumping around here, but I need to mention also thats theres 2 kinds of inverters . The inexpensive ones like the one I am using here are just your standard inverter that makes a modified Sine wave,.. These are suitable for fish tank gear but sometimes will not work with some fluorescent lights... Not sure if they work with LEDs.. I know they work fine with heaters, aquaclear filters, air pumps and most older pcs and laptops.. I used that alot for mine. Where they are not so good is sensitive electronics. For that should get a "pure"sine wave inverter.. They are pricey.. 2-4 X what a modified sine wave costs. I have the OSP Tiger Claw 1500w/3000w Pure Sine Wave Inverter which goes for $200.. and is a low end one... It puts out 1500 watts/3000 countinous... and its really a great Pure Sine inverter fior the price.

I'm not going to attempt to explain modified verse pure sine waves except picture this... Modified looks like blocky steps, pure sine waves are smooth rolling hills.

see an image here...
http://www.civicsolar.com/resource/pure-sine-vs-modified-sine-wave-inverters

[MKD]

Tony,
From what I know, alot of inverters have a shut off built in that if the battery voltage drops to a certain level... ,usually 10-11 volts I think, it shuts off. You can get that by drawing too much from the battery, or the cables could have been too small or long and that caused the voltage drop that tripped the shut off. My guess is it was the first.. was the car shut off or running when you tried?

-al
It was brand new car and was off. that could be it.

[brewmaster15]

Okay so we have the battery, the inverter, the wires and terminals, the fuse... not much else to it except some way to charge the battery.


Now if you want to be truly self sufficient here, a solar panels not a bad idea... 30 watt panels are fairly cheap and hook up easy. If you have alot of sun where you are...it will work great..

http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/20141203_134428_zps5d2ad34c.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/BREW-PC/20141203_134428_zps5d2ad34c.jpg.html)

Here in CT, Northeast USA in the winter, its use able but takes a while. I prefer to think ahead abit when I am prepping for something.

So heres my scenario,... Storm hits and its serious, much power out, and many days without power. Similar to what the Northeast went thru with Hurricane Sandy and the South with Katrina. Why settle on one method to deal with this when several work? Thats the beauty of this invert power supply. You can easily have a solar panel, ready to go if you have a hurricane that comes thru and blows out the power for a few weeks... If you have a changer thats maintaining the battery and you loose power that battery will still have juice for weeks until you use it. And then if you are one of those of that have a generator, even better. Remember those lines at the pump, and the the problem getting gas that many of us went thru? Wouldnt it be nice to get a little more mileage out of your generators fuel tank? Most people don't run their generators to peak output, but alot of that potential is lost as the fuel burns up. Hook a battery charger up to it, then to the battery and charge the battery while running the house on generator. Then you can give the generator a break and run the lights etc off the battery at night, in effect you get more electricity . Alot of hobbyists I know of really lost alot of fish in the last few storms. I was able to run my fishroom for close to a week on an inverter set up more simple than this.

Its silent, reusable, can be run inside. (note on that shortly, I need to talk battery types.) For a hobbyist with a tank or two of fish... its a really easy and inexpensive way to insure that you are able to have power when you need it for your tanks. Just a few hours without power will kill a biofilter in a cannister.
The above system costs under $200 . Added benefit, most people can't take their generator with them if they have to leave or need power somewhere.. an inverter is easy peasy to!

[brewmaster15]

It was brand new car and was off. that could be it.

I would almost bet on it.

-al

[MKD]

Great information and useful to someone like me. Don't want to wake up neighbors with generator. Thank you Al

[brewmaster15]

Some vids... using some power tools.. My standard test equipment.. ... in this case will go with a drill and 9 amp circular saw.... Not sure why the video quality is so crummy with this upload... photobucket must have clipped it...


Drill
http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/inverter/th_20141203_172733_zpsfjvgjkf1.mp4 (http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/inverter/20141203_172733_zpsfjvgjkf1.mp4)


circular saw
http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/inverter/th_20141203_172823_zpsjkfzjksh.mp4 (http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/inverter/20141203_172823_zpsjkfzjksh.mp4)

saw pushes it a bit! but runs.

al

[nc0gnet0]

I know I am jumping around here, but I need to mention also thats theres 2 kinds of inverters . The inexpensive ones like the one I using here are just your standard inverter that makes a modified Sine wave,.. These are suitable for fish tank gear but sometimes will not work with some fluorescent lights... Not sure if they work with LEDs.. I know they work fine with heaters, aquaclear filters, air pumps and most older pcs and laptops.. I used that alot for mine. Where they are not so good is sensitive electronics. For that should get a "pure"sine wave inverter.. They are pricey.. 2-4 X what a modified sine wave costs. I have the OSP Tiger Claw 1500w/3000w Pure Sine Wave Inverter which goes for $200.. and is a low end one... It puts out 1500 watts/3000 countinous... and its really a great Pure Sine inverter fior the price.

I'm not going to attempt to explain modified verse pure sine waves except picture this... Modified looks like blocky steps, pure sine waves are smooth rolling hills.

see an image here...
http://www.civicsolar.com/resource/pure-sine-vs-modified-sine-wave-inverters

Modified sine wave converters are ok for incandescent lighting, brush-less motors, heating elements, etc etc.

As mentioned not recommended for motors with brushes (transfer pumps etc), fluorescent lights.

LED's-They should be ok, LED's are a DC current device (as are most electronic devices.) The part that may be at risk is not the LED fixture, but the walwart/power brick that has a step down transformer inside (and then the ac is converted to DC).

Same would go for Laptops and most electronic devices (as all have there own ac to dc power supplys-not all are external like most typical LED fixtures however). Here it would be a case by case scenario depending on the quality of the power supply of the device itself.

One interesting little note-When using a modified sine wave converter, some devices-such as heaters-willl draw a little more power than they would with a pure sine wave-so leave yourself a little headroom. They will work just fine though, just your 300 watt heater might draw 350 watts all of a sudden.

[brewmaster15]

Modified sine wave converters are ok for incandescent lighting, brush-less motors, heating elements, etc etc.

As mentioned not recommended for motors with brushes (transfer pumps etc), fluorescent lights.

LED's-They should be ok, LED's are a DC current device (as are most electronic devices.) The part that may be at risk is not the LED fixture, but the walwart/power brick that has a step down transformer inside (and then the ac is converted to DC).

Same would go for Laptops and most electronic devices (as all have there own ac to dc power supplys-not all are external like most typical LED fixtures however). Here it would be a case by case scenario depending on the quality of the power supply of the device itself.

One interesting little note-When using a modified sine wave converter, some devices-such as heaters-willl draw a little more power than they would with a pure sine wave-so leave yourself a little headroom. They will work just fine though, just your 300 watt heater might draw 350 watts all of a sudden.
Thanks for the add on info Rick!

[brewmaster15]

So more area I should touch upon... The battery.

In my son'sTreehouse I am using an AGM sealed battery. This means "Absorbed Glass Matt" . AGM batteries are a better choice for inside homes use .They are sealed and maintenance free batteries...Last thing I wanted was a chance my kids would get acid sloshed on them... These batteries are often used in solar installations. They cost about 2 X what a typical flooded lead acid battery that is serviceable costs. Well worth it if you can swing it. I chose to use a the inexpensive flooded lead acid deep cycle marine batteries from walmart as cash was tight and they do what I need. Plus they are in my garage.

A good article on the different battery types is here...

http://bdchargers.com/batterytypes.php


-al

[brewmaster15]

A word about Chargers... Low end ones are a mixed bag.. even from well known names. Be sure to read the model reviews... I found some that were pure garbage. I use a low end Schumacher....

http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/20141203_171758_zpsb126a738.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/20141203_171758_zpsb126a738.jpg.html)

First one came in DOA from Amazon, second was fine and has worked great.. Its what I read alot of.....pure hit or miss.. I settled on thi model for several reasons, one of which was the price point was low and the reviews fair, under $50 and I had intended on building it into a charging station down the road so it would not be something I could use elsewhere... no sense in wasting money. Its important that you use a "smart" charger. These can be set to battery type and AGM, Flooded, sometime even Gel ( another battery type) . They don't just charge the battery, but run a cycle that charges them in a way that maximizes their life. One thing you don't want to do is over charge the battery ..it will destroy, so smart chargers shut off automatically. You also want to have a charger that will desulfate the lead plates properly..... again not an electrician so will simplify this... Basically Junk builds up on the lead plates.... when you charge the battery properly the junk is removed. When you use the battery Junk build up. A battery with lots of junk is not going to work well. At least thats this biologists understanding of a chemistry process.

sulfation link...
http://bdchargers.com/sulfation.php

[brewmaster15]

As I said, I am sure this will be a work in progress....lol..sorry if I jump around..

Back to the Batteries... Most inverters will shut off if the battery volts drop too much but you do want to be careful that you don't drain the battery too much... Even taking a deep cycle battery and draining it to zero will kill its longevity immensely... most are meant to only be drained to a certain point. Thats going to very by battery, so read the specs... But theres an easy fix.. I know many of you know what batteries in Series vs in parallel are, so not trying to dummy down this, but for those that don't.... You can take 2 batteries and wire them so the voltage stays the same...but the amp hours double.. ..thats in Parallel .. ( you could also keep the amp hours the same and wire in series which makes a 12 volt system now 24 volts....not what we want here.

Theres alot of benefit to batteries in parallel.. they last twice as long and they don't get drawn down dangerously low. They need to be the same brand, same ratings, and same age though. You don't want to wire a a 100 ah hour battery with a 20 amp hour battery... nor do you want to use a 2 each 100 aH batteries where one is 1 year ld and used and the other new.


Parallel and Series wiring is a basic in electronics, theres tons of info and diagrams on it. So I won't go into anymore detail...
Parallel vs Series info...
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/serial_and_parallel_battery_configurations

Series by way is great for science projects with kids... You can easily make homemade batteries that can run led lights... we've got a set now running for 1 week that will probably run months and months.. all thanks to a bunch of tiny charges adding up.. lol..digressing.... I planned on writing that up for a DIY site.

[sdrexler078]

Al to help explain the wires alittle bit ( you may already know this). Up to 0 gauge wire is for automotive. Any of the 1/0 - 4/0 is industrial stuff. In the automotive business and car audio we have our own wire sizes don't know why but I think it's like difference between metric and standard and it goes up to 0 since that will handle all a car will throw at it. Even still most cars don't go above 4

[brewmaster15]

Al to help explain the wires alittle bit ( you may already know this). Up to 0 gauge wire is for automotive. Any of the 1/0 - 4/0 is industrial stuff. In the automotive business and car audio we have our own wire sizes don't know why but I think it's like difference between metric and standard and it goes up to 0 since that will handle all a car will throw at it. Even still most cars don't go above 4

Hi Sam,
Thanks for that info... It definetly helps . When I first started playing around with this, I went to my local automotive store and when asked about 2/0 wire they looked at me like I had 2 heads.... same when I asked about a 250 amp ANL inline fuse! Best I could get at the auto store was a piece of black 1/0 wire and a roll of red tape!


I had the hardest time understanding why the wire had to be so big an inverter.. Theres alot of good info here...
http://www.donrowe.com/power-inverter-faq-a/258.htm


but best I can tell is its related to the watts, length of wire used , and the way this is a 12 v DC system. I ended up by alot my wire from WindyNation (http://www.windynation.com/).

[nc0gnet0]

Now, with a good 20 amp DPDT relay we can get this puppy to turn on when power goes out automatically........

Nice write up Al!

-Rick

[brewmaster15]

I like to pride myself on being creative where possible and if I can find something as discarded or old and I can re-use it I will... If you find this write up interesting and are toying with the idea of trying it, keep an eye out on Craigslist and the classifieds. They go fast when offered and sometimes are dirt cheap but you may stumble on batteries from telephone companies, or Computer IT stations, some of these may be old, but are definetly worth getting if the price is right. Same goes for golf cart batteries, and even tow motor batteries. I would love to get my hands on some of these big monsters!

Theres no way to really save on the cables. You want to use a multi-strand copper cable. Its carries current better than a single strand of copper .I'ev been told its because the current flows over the surface of the copper, so the more surface area the better. Its also flexible and easier to work with. For smaller inverters, some have used battery Jumper cables.If you do, keep the cable as short as possible , just a few feet, and crimp/solder terminals and pay attention to the gauge of the wire.

Inverters... You got to love Ebay for bringing together all the good and the bad in one place! You can really find some deals there. Before you look though, try and add up all the watts you need to supply for your application. Be realistic... what do you need to get by? and then shop. Amazon is great for reading the reviews on a model of interest.... Ebay is usually cheaper and has more suppliers. Go with what want there. Theres also a ton of online battery,inverter, and solar specialist and even forums for them...All good resources to tap.

Theres a bit to learn, but its not too hard to get a solid foundation and learn as you go.Its a bit fun as well if you like DIY projects.

Hope this helps someone,

Al

[nc0gnet0]

some have used battery Jumper cables.If you do, keep the cable as short as possible

Cutting them in half and doubling them up effectively doubles the cable gauge...........

[brewmaster15]

Cutting them in half and doubling them up effectively doubles the cable gauge...........

True, but they need to be exactly the same length if you do. For some reason most of the places I read online seemed to frown on using smaller cables together like that..I don't know exactly why. It seems to me, it should work fine if the cables are the same length . The only place where it may get tricky is that ANL fuse on the Positive... would you use 2 smaller amp ones ?

I do know that some of the "larger " inverters recquire 2 power and 2 ground of smaller gauge. They do this as they "cheat" to make the inverter bigger. For instance they may be marketed as a 4000 watt inverter.. but in reality they are 2 each 2000 watt inverters in the same unit...so need a positive and ground for each.

[nc0gnet0]

For some reason most of the places I read online seemed to frown on using smaller cables together like that..I don't know exactly why.

Because if the two cables become disassociated, then you have only one cable connected, and that may not be capable of handling the load. However, if both cables are capable, this no longer becomes an issue. Yes the cables should be exactly the same length, and connected in such a way that one will not "slip" out. Ideally you would use lugs and solder, and you could even have multiple coupling points along the length of the two cables.

You do need to make sure the two cables are the same, which in the case of the long jumper cables, should not be an issue.

Ideally one larger cable is better (if it gets disconnected you have an open circuit and no hazard), but we are talking about sourcing materials for the project with what we may have available to us :)

-Rick

[brewmaster15]

So Probably best if you use "re-purposed" jumper cables to solder the terminals of the two pieces together and crimp to the terminal lug, and also do that again on the positive cable where the ANL Fuse is placed in line. Its a tad more work but soldering and crimpings is not hard. Worth it if you have access to old jumpers cables.

[nc0gnet0]

So Probably best if you use re-purpose jumper cables to solder the terminals of the two pieces together and crimp to the terminal lug, and also do that again on the positive cable where the ANL Fuse is placed in line.

Absolutely and the only way I would do it. Last I checked copper was at like $3.00 a pound scrap, so new cable ain't cheap if you have some laying around. :)

[brewmaster15]

Just to clarify for those unfamilar with this... we talking about using jumper cables normally used to start a dead battery in a car. You can cut the clamps off , separate the ground from the positive and then cut each of those wire in half... giving you 2 pcs ground, 2 pcs positive... Then you solder the ends together to double the gauge of the wire..This is done before connecting to the battery, inverter and fuse ...

Looks something like this...

http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s623/Snakebyte2/BREW-PC/schematic_zps030ec881.jpg (http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/Snakebyte2/media/BREW-PC/schematic_zps030ec881.jpg.html)

[brewmaster15]

Just came across another thread at Simply thats related... Kris has a thread discussing using a UPS system for emergency power... pros and cons etc.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?116649-System-Concept-Uninterruptible-Power-Supply

If this thread interests you, have a read there.

-al

[100fuegos]

Now, with a good 20 amp DPDT relay we can get this puppy to turn on when power goes out automatically........

Nice write up Al!

-Rick
The solution for this is a fully automatic AC / DC inverter and UPS. Search eBay "doxin".

It is coincidence I see this posted as it will be two weeks in two days since I built something similar for my small installation.

KISS method, 105 amp deep cycle cheap battery + Doxin brand fully automatic AC / DC inverter and UPS with a 20 amp smart charger. It does everything I need and it does it by itself.

[nc0gnet0]

I can get a good 30 amp DPDT 120 volt coil relay for 30 bucks, not sure why I would need a UPS. It is the same relay some use for switching to solar backup on power failure. While I am sure your solution may work, I see no advantages and only added expense.

[100fuegos]

That is a good point t Rick, but if I had to buy the inverter, the smart charger and the relay then it would be cheaper to buy this UPS

[brewmaster15]

That is a good point t Rick, but if I had to buy the inverter, the smart charger and the relay then it would be cheaper to buy this UPS

How much did your system cost to build? Also what kind of output does the inverter put out?

I do like the idea of an automatic backup system for power outages with fishtanks...sensible idea and easy to accomplish.

One note on the system as I have outlined here ...its scaleable with ease... if I add a fishtank or two to my collection(something not unheard of with hobbyists!!!!) I can swap out my 1100 watt/2200 watt surge inverter for a bigger 2000/4000 watt. The process takes 2 mins and entails loosening and removing 2 nuts on the battery ,removing cables and inverter, and replacing with new larger one.

Another upgrade Easy to make is battery related..I can easy change a battery bank as well if needed.

This kind of scaleability means I can make a system not just big enough for my present tanks..but for more future ones and even electronics in my home.

Last note,in my area we have pretty stable power...we lose it during storms.Something I know are coming. Ive never not been home when we lost power...probably just jinxed myself!
Ricks given me some specs and info on a relay so I think I may give it a try and see how it works with an inverter battery system like mine. The relay is not expensive at all..under $30.

Al

[Tres]

Blimey, that's a lot of complicated detail to work out for what is a relatively simple thing in principle! Thanks for posting about it. It's an annoyance there aren't off-the-shelf systems available as such...

I was trying to get my Mechanical and Electrical Engineer to build something like this for one of my projects for top-off surges to not blow the fuse until the power supply is upgraded, but he said it would cost tens of thousands and the size of the equipment would take up an entire large room. (Not that I've had much confidence in him overall though).

I couldn't quite off the top of my head gauge the performance it provides however. How long do you think a marine battery like that would fully power your average say 200 gallon discus tank, if you didn't have a solar panel and just had a mains powered trickle charger. (I'd prefer a solar panel but am not going to rewire my house to achieve that.)

Of course you'd just need to run your critical systems such as circulation and heating through this, as heating and circulation but not lighting. Or in worst case, the wife's fridge-freezer as well. ; P

I'd need to build another one as well for a 60 gallon reef tank, which can crash within hours if the power goes out.

[100fuegos]

How much did your system cost to build? Also what kind of output does the inverter put out?



It was around 115 € plus another 116.50 for the 105 Amp deep cycle battery and that is it. The Inverter/UPS/Battery Charger is rated at 1500W but it is 90 % efficient so it will be able to sustain a load of 1350 watts or so. Actually there is a video of it on YouTube running a fan heater at 1300 watts, more than I will ever need.

It will have to deal with 625 watts only from two heaters, two canisters and air compressor. It will be pretty easy to connect a second battery in parallel in case I ever need it.

[nc0gnet0]

The solution for this is a fully automatic AC / DC inverter and UPS. Search eBay "doxin".

It is coincidence I see this posted as it will be two weeks in two days since I built something similar for my small installation.

KISS method, 105 amp deep cycle cheap battery + Doxin brand fully automatic AC / DC inverter and UPS with a 20 amp smart charger. It does everything I need and it does it by itself.

I am a little confused here. The Doxin is just one type of inverter:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Auto-UPS-2500W-DC-12V-to-AC-220V-Car-Power-Inverter-Universal-Socket-DOXIN-/221601043672?pt=US_Power_Inverters_&hash=item33987394d8

What do you mean by "and UPS" are you sure your using the terminology correctly? What UPS?

[100fuegos]

I am a little confused here. The Doxin is just one type of inverter:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Auto-UPS-2500W-DC-12V-to-AC-220V-Car-Power-Inverter-Universal-Socket-DOXIN-/221601043672?pt=US_Power_Inverters_&hash=item33987394d8

What do you mean by "and UPS" are you sure your using the terminology correctly? What UPS?

lol Rick sometimes you can be a pain :p (joke)

Yes I am using the right terminology, after all a UPS is an automatic AC / DC inverter and battery charger. This thing will charge your battery (20 Amp charger), keep it charged (smart charger) and upon a power failure will automatically kick in providing AC power to your stuff. So yes, it is a UPS (uninterruptible power supply).

If you are in the market for an inverter, smart charger and a relay to make the thing kick in automatically upon a power outage then this is a viable option. One thing to note is that I have not seen it rated at 110 - 120 VAC so it will keep you guys in America out of option.

I bought it here (http://www.ebay.es/itm/161442061725?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649) Be aware that prices will vary a lot, almost twice, depending whre you buy it.

And now to make you a believer Rick please see this very bad video (sorry for the lack of quality and reflections)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQiYMvmPEnk

[kris2341]

I didnt know they made inverters with a built in UPS function, looks surprisingly sleek.

[kris2341]

I found a potential suitable inverter UPS for 110VAC use

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5000w-LF-pure-sine-wave-power-inverter-dc12v-to-ac110v-battery-charger-LCD-meter-/271498317135

this is a bit too much for me to swallow as far as price but its an option.

[nc0gnet0]

Ok I see now, I apologize, I was really struggling with the bad English in the ebay listings that came up when I searched "dioxin". It's an interesting little unit indeed. It does appear to combine the battery charger/inverter/relay all in one little neat package. I question the quality of the build (based mainly on physical size), but it very well could be a well built unit. As it is only available in 220 volt versions, it will be useless for any of us in the US.

It makes sense though, a 220v version would be significantly smaller in size than it's equivalent 120 volt version, as it would take twice the amperage in the 120v version to equal the same power output (watts) as the 220 v version. Higher amperage means higher heat and more expensive parts.

So, if dioxin where to make a 120 volt version of the same unit, what I am getting at is it would be larger, heavier, and more expensive. Just exactly how much so I am not sure, but if I were to ponder a guess, it would be slightly more expensive then the system Al has made here.

[nc0gnet0]

I found a potential suitable inverter UPS for 110VAC use

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5000w-LF-pure-sine-wave-power-inverter-dc12v-to-ac110v-battery-charger-LCD-meter-/271498317135

this is a bit too much for me to swallow as far as price but its an option.

Yup, that is exactly what I was trying to point out.

[100fuegos]

As long as quality only time will tell. It has been only two weeks since I put up the system so not talking about quality here, just specs.

[brewmaster15]

lol Rick sometimes you can be a pain :p (joke)

Yes I am using the right terminology, after all a UPS is an automatic AC / DC inverter and battery charger. This thing will charge your battery (20 Amp charger), keep it charged (smart charger) and upon a power failure will automatically kick in providing AC power to your stuff. So yes, it is a UPS (uninterruptible power supply).

If you are in the market for an inverter, smart charger and a relay to make the thing kick in automatically upon a power outage then this is a viable option. One thing to note is that I have not seen it rated at 110 - 120 VAC so it will keep you guys in America out of option.

I bought it here (http://www.ebay.es/itm/161442061725?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649) Be aware that prices will vary a lot, almost twice, depending whre you buy it.

And now to make you a believer Rick please see this very bad video (sorry for the lack of quality and reflections)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQiYMvmPEnk



Thanks for the Vid here! Question though... I see the battery with the power and ground leads going to the inverter as they should.. I see two power cords coming out of the inverter... Does this inverter act as the battery charger as well? and automatically switches to an inverter when the power goes down? Can you give me the model number off the inverter, sounds interesting.

Your system looks very well designed, including the tanks...one note for you though, generally you should not place a charger or inverter above a battery like that, especially so close to the ceiling... you can get explosive gasses that accumulate up there and a spark can easily set them off. Just a suggestion.

Best always,
al

[brewmaster15]

Blimey, that's a lot of complicated detail to work out for what is a relatively simple thing in principle! Thanks for posting about it. It's an annoyance there aren't off-the-shelf systems available as such...

I was trying to get my Mechanical and Electrical Engineer to build something like this for one of my projects for top-off surges to not blow the fuse until the power supply is upgraded, but he said it would cost tens of thousands and the size of the equipment would take up an entire large room. (Not that I've had much confidence in him overall though).

I couldn't quite off the top of my head gauge the performance it provides however. How long do you think a marine battery like that would fully power your average say 200 gallon discus tank, if you didn't have a solar panel and just had a mains powered trickle charger. (I'd prefer a solar panel but am not going to rewire my house to achieve that.)

Of course you'd just need to run your critical systems such as circulation and heating through this, as heating and circulation but not lighting. Or in worst case, the wife's fridge-freezer as well. ; P

I'd need to build another one as well for a 60 gallon reef tank, which can crash within hours if the power goes out.


Its going to depend on alot of things, the heater is going to be the biggest variable... If you can calculate out your power consumption and know the amp Hours of the Battery you can make a good estimate. I'll try and run a test latter this week on a 125 gal, 2 300 watt heaters, lights, and several aquaclear filters.

-al

[100fuegos]

Thanks for the Vid here! Question though... I see the battery with the power and ground leads going to the inverter as they should.. I see two power cords coming out of the inverter... Does this inverter act as the battery charger as well? and automatically switches to an inverter when the power goes down? Can you give me the model number off the inverter, sounds interesting.

Your system looks very well designed, including the tanks...one note for you though, generally you should not place a charger or inverter above a battery like that, especially so close to the ceiling... you can get explosive gasses that accumulate up there and a spark can easily set them off. Just a suggestion.

Best always,
al

Actually only one power cord is coming out, the second one is coming in. Do not see it as an inverter, is causing a lot of confusion. It is a not conventional UPS without battery. After all a conventional UPS (from the computer world) is nothing more than an automatic DC/AC power inverter and a smart battery charger that usually carries a small 7.2 Amp 12V DC (it can be more than one in parallel) AGM battery inside, exactly what this thing is, except for the battery.

So yes, it is connected to the wall socket and while there is AC power it is a smart battery charger (this model 20 Amp). When there is a power outage it automatically kicks in and becomes an automatic DC / AC power inverter, a UPS. Once the AC power is restored the inverter part stops and the battery charger kicks in to recharge the battery.

It is a Doxin 1500W fully automatic DC / AC power inverter, UPS and battery charger. At least it can be read that way on the sticker. See in my previous post an eBay link and a warning about not being available for you guys in 110 - 120 VAC countries. Anyway I have found this eBay listing (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1500W-3000W-peak-12v-to-110v-Power-Inverter-Charger-UPS-20A-and-Fast-Charge-/390953313511?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b06a224e7) that claims it is a 110 VAC model but all the pictures are from the 220 VAC model, so be careful.

Serach eBay inverter charger ups 110 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=inverter+charger+ups&_from=R40&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.A0.H0.Xinvert er+charger+ups+110&_nkw=inverter+charger+ups+110&_sacat=0) to see what its available to you. Quite expensive compared to these 220 VAC models by the way.

Thanks for your warning, I will consider it.

[nc0gnet0]

I would be curious to see how long your unit, as you currently have it set up, would run your tank. Is it possible to unplug the unit from the wall (simulating a power outage) and run a test?

[100fuegos]

Yes it is possible but it will have to be next weekend when I am home. I spend the day out at work Mon to Fri.

[nc0gnet0]

Cool, thanks!

[Tres]

Probably a good idea to do a test run of the backup anyway, prior to seeing what happens when the next big storm hits!

[100fuegos]

Ok here we go again. To make the test I did nothing special except to start a chronometer and write down on paper the battery voltage every hour. Running on the battery were two external canisters rated at 20 watts each, one inline 300 watts hydor heater, one eheim 250 watts submersible heater, a 35 watts air compressor and last a small 10 watts LED light.

00:00 -> 12.5 V
01:00 -> 12.5 V
02:00 -> 12.33 V
03:00 -> 12.17 V
04:00 -> 11.78 V
04:49 -> Unit complaint about low battery voltage, test finished.

Although I was not present at every minute I must say I never saw the 250 watts eheim heater kick in. The external hydor heater in the other hand was kicking in every fifteen or twenty minutes and every time it did the battery voltage went down for a full 0.5 V coming back up when it turned off.

So for less than five hour back up I am good to go but to tell the truth I am seriously thinking of buying a second battery to connect it in parallel.

[nc0gnet0]

Very helpful, thanks. can I ask what was the ambient temperature of the room the tank was in? Why I ask is that for some of us in a cold weather climate, this time could be greatly reduced.

[gunnerschh2]

There are a lot of diesel engines out there today. I ran my van 7/24 for 5 day after sandy for 750 gals. Water & no problems.inverters are great this way. Harry

[100fuegos]

Ambient temperature was between 8 and 10 ºC lower than temp set on the hydor heater (28 ºC). Tanks are very well insulated with Styrofoam all but the front side but the hydor being external is prone to kick in more often.

[brewmaster15]

Going to bump this since we have a storm coming up the east coast USA.


..and since we are entering hurricane season.

[Abrahamus]

Is an inverter really that cool thing?