Water Changes (again)

[Woodduck]

Hello
I have an old question looking for new answers. What is it about water changes that makes our Discus look, feel and act much more healthy and robust? If your water parameters are ideal - temp, O2, nitrites, nitrates, ammonia level, gh, kh and ph - right on the money, then why do we still need to change out a percentage of already perfect water? I have a very high tech bio system set up, but because I have the time (retired in Florida), I still do 40% wc every day. I also have a user friendly set up for wc and actually enjoy it! So please, in my never ending quest for elusive (at least for me) knowledge, tell me why the fuss? I am in no way thinking of steering away from something that obviously works, just wanted to know. Thanks for your time.
Woodduck

[wario]

Replenishing the trace elements with the water changes??????

[Woodduck]

makes sense

[Solid]

There is also supposedly hormones that build up that cause fish to slow their growth. I'm not sure if I believe it, but I do believe that other chemicals and possibly toxins can build up over time. Not just ones we can test for like ammonia, nitrates etc.

[wario]

At least that is what Kenny told me a few years ago when I was at his place. There is a LFS near me that carries some discus and many dwarf cichlids, tetras, corys plants etc that never do any water changes a swears by it. They just tap off the their tanks with a big container with premix water at a ph of 6.8 once a week. They rely solely on the live plants and temps being at 78 degrees, ph at 6.8 and all the built up bacterias on the substrate to handle the rest of the parameters like ammonia, nitrite, nitrate etc. All live stock looks to be thriving but their discus are somewhat stunted in spite of perfect water parameters. (well, I would keep my Discus in 84 degrees at least, not 78 degrees. They do this because the water's more oxygenated). I've yet to see anyone raise Discus to its full potential without frequent water changes in the home aquarium. If you're near me in the Bay Area, you probably know which LFS I'm referring to.

[John_Nicholson]

**** I am going to pull me freaking hair out if I read about this hormone crap again. I swear it is going to cause me to lose my every loving mind.

As far as your water parameters being perfect how would you know? There are hundreds of things in your water and you are checking what 5 or 6? Most likely it is DOC's but des it really matter? The key to healthy discus has been established for a long time. It is not hard. It fact it is downright easy.

-john

[brewmaster15]

**** I am going to pull me freaking hair out if ........ swear it is going to cause me to lose my every loving mind.

-john

Again?:)

[John_Nicholson]

Your right. I am probably to far around the bend to ever return to normality....

-john

[Second Hand Pat]

Your right. I am probably to far around the bend to ever return to normality....

-john

Yup, noted that at the last show....

[Woodduck]

Well John, maybe that's why my Discus are so healthy and robust. I'm glad it's easy. The easy is what makes it great.
Woodduck

[CANAMONSTER]

Waters over all chemistry changes. Frequent water changes keeps the water close to being "clean" Nitrates is ultimately the main reason but loads of other things changes as well like for example Salinity. Most important thing is consistency! No need to be a chemists like Walt. Consistency is the most important aspect of keeping any fish. IMO.

[Solid]

**** I am going to pull me freaking hair out if I read about this hormone crap again. I swear it is going to cause me to lose my every loving mind.n

Haha! John, I even said when I brought it up that I wasn't sold on it. Either way, our point is the same, that their are many water parameters that don't show up on test kits.

[Solid]

Im just gonna leave this here...

85383

:p

[Second Hand Pat]

Im just gonna leave this here...

85383

:p

You forget to edit the color chart lol

[ericNH]

Hahahahaha thanks for the chuckles :) My morning coffee and SimplyDiscus - they're great together.

[Solid]

Me?!? Those guys at API must have forgot to change the card in their photoshoot... :grin:

[steck]

i have asked this too before, but kinda got scorned at... i'm guessing alot of people ask the same question over and over.

but it remains; why would you change out perfectly good water. i dunno.


i'm wondering, and just a thought, that the people who change 1x per week, or even 2x per week are 'silenced' out here...and wouldnt admit to it, as they might get categorized or yelled at for not getting in line.

[ericNH]

i'm wondering, and just a thought, that the people who change 1x per week, or even 2x per week are 'silenced' out here...and wouldnt admit to it, as they might get categorized or yelled at for not getting in line.

I saw it quite diffently - when I was told my water changes were woefully insufficient, I took it as advice, not being "yelled at for not getting in line." And it was probably the single most important piece of advice I got here.

[Solid]

i'm wondering, and just a thought, that the people who change 1x per week, or even 2x per week are 'silenced' out here...and wouldnt admit to it, as they might get categorized or yelled at for not getting in line.

Some people like me need to learn from experience and not from what people tell them. I am hardheaded and I thought the same thing. "These dicsus guys are nuts! Why would you ever need to change water that often. My tank water is super clean! I'll be fine with 2 water changes a month." I did this for over 3 years and my fish suffered. I constantly had problems with disease, fish not eating and definitely not growing to potential. I am now trying again with daily water changes and so far my fish seem to be much happier. Its not a mystery why the people who are very successful growing out discus, all give the same kind of advise.

[DISCUS STU]

Im just gonna leave this here...

85383

:p

LOL! Good photo editing. Ah yes, the old myth of growth inhibiting hormones! Glad we know better, and more, these days.

[steck]

I saw it quite diffently - when I was told my water changes were woefully insufficient, I took it as advice, not being "yelled at for not getting in line." And it was probably the single most important piece of advice I got here.



Some people like me need to learn from experience and not from what people tell them. I am hardheaded and I thought the same thing. "These dicsus guys are nuts! Why would you ever need to change water that often. My tank water is super clean! I'll be fine with 2 water changes a month." I did this for over 3 years and my fish suffered. I constantly had problems with disease, fish not eating and definitely not growing to potential. I am now trying again with daily water changes and so far my fish seem to be much happier. Its not a mystery why the people who are very successful growing out discus, all give the same kind of advise.


thx guys !


woefully insufficient and growing out discus are the operatives here.

and i totally see the POV for the those two instances.

me? i love WC's ! i also love science too ! and am curious all the same and learing about WC's and discus fish :)

im wondering if you have adult discus, properly fed, with great parameters and water quality, if you need the daily's and 2wice daily's..

[DonMD]

im wondering if you have adult discus, properly fed, with great parameters and water quality, if you need the daily's and 2wice daily's..

No, with healthy adult discus in an uncrowded tank, you don't need to change as much water. In my opinion, the key operative in all this is any stress that is imposed on the fish. Stress will lead to disease. Overcrowding, poor water quality, pathogens, all stress the fish. This leads to poor development, and to disease. Try to create an environment where your fish are exposed to the least amount of stress possible, and they should thrive.

If you look at the Stendker web page in Germany (it's in English), they have different advice for hobbyists about water changes.

Why don't you just follow your own ideas and do what you want regarding water changes, and then let us know a few months from now how it's going?

Good luck.

[Woodduck]

Don't forget the uv!! Some say yes, some say waste of money. I say every little bit helps
Woodduck

[steck]

No, with healthy adult discus in an uncrowded tank, you don't need to change as much water. In my opinion, the key operative in all this is any stress that is imposed on the fish. Stress will lead to disease. Overcrowding, poor water quality, pathogens, all stress the fish. This leads to poor development, and to disease. Try to create an environment where your fish are exposed to the least amount of stress possible, and they should thrive.

If you look at the Stendker web page in Germany (it's in English), they have different advice for hobbyists about water changes.

Why don't you just follow your own ideas and do what you want regarding water changes, and then let us know a few months from now how it's going?

Good luck.



well said ! thx sir !

[rickztahone]

Some people like me need to learn from experience and not from what people tell them. I am hardheaded and I thought the same thing. "These dicsus guys are nuts! Why would you ever need to change water that often. My tank water is super clean! I'll be fine with 2 water changes a month." I did this for over 3 years and my fish suffered. I constantly had problems with disease, fish not eating and definitely not growing to potential. I am now trying again with daily water changes and so far my fish seem to be much happier. Its not a mystery why the people who are very successful growing out discus, all give the same kind of advise.

Sadly, it takes most people to make this mistake to learn that what the successful breeders/hardcore hobbyists were saying was right all along.

[blueluv]

Im just gonna leave this here...

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo12/espiritudentrimi80/Mobile%20Uploads/63096751-F444-4B8F-B057-B5664A06AF5C_zpszne6fwgv.jpg (http://s357.photobucket.com/user/espiritudentrimi80/media/Mobile%20Uploads/63096751-F444-4B8F-B057-B5664A06AF5C_zpszne6fwgv.jpg.html)

:p

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo12/espiritudentrimi80/Mobile%20Uploads/7A556C7C-8716-4AF6-87F1-AE613D14D68A_zpsxfeztlno.gif (http://s357.photobucket.com/user/espiritudentrimi80/media/Mobile%20Uploads/7A556C7C-8716-4AF6-87F1-AE613D14D68A_zpsxfeztlno.gif.html) Thank you Solid! I needed a good laugh

[nc0gnet0]

i have asked this too before, but kinda got scorned at... i'm guessing alot of people ask the same question over and over.

but it remains; why would you change out perfectly good water. i dunno.


i'm wondering, and just a thought, that the people who change 1x per week, or even 2x per week are 'silenced' out here...and wouldnt admit to it, as they might get categorized or yelled at for not getting in line.


They don't get silenced, they just spend the majority of their time over here:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?319-Disease-Sickness-and-Medication

[emu1sive]

Fish in water+fish food=poop/rotting food in water=dirty water=sick fish= X.X

I wouldn't want to swim in a pool that someone pooped in even if the water parameters were still measuring perfect.

[CANAMONSTER]

OK this has some significants, what is everyone's opinion on steady drip system instead of remove and refill?

Is the drip dilution not as effective? I have a pretty good idea but would love to hear the discus pros 2 cents on this!!

[John_Nicholson]

It becomes pretty inefficient with large changes.

-john

[Second Hand Pat]

Guys, read this for a better understanding why we do water changes http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/discus_husbandry/discus_basics/wc_formula.shtml



Water Change Formula for Daily Water Changes

Ralph Cote
February 11, 2002.

I was wondering about how different water change percentages affect the water quality in the tank and how much builds up over time.

The formula applies only to water soluble wastes and does not apply to CO2 (gas is removed by water action) nor ammonia and nitrites (which are converted by bacteria). It does apply to nitrates (in unplanted tanks) and any unknown wastes which are the likely cause of stunting and poor health.

If you are not a math fan, you can just skip to the bottom.

If W is the total daily waste output by all the fish in the tank, and WC% is the percent of tank volume that is changed daily:

The waste in the tank on the evening (after a WC) of the first day = W(1-WC%)

Waste in the tank after second day (after WC) = W(1-WC%) + W(1-WC%)(1-WC%)

Waste on third evening = W(1-WC%) + W(1-WC%)(1-WC%) + W(1-WC%)(1-WC%)(1-WC%)

Etc., etc.


In English it means the fish are constantly putting out waste and it is being partially removed every evening with the water change, so the waste builds up over time. It is shaped like a learning curve where it is steep at first then gradually levels out to a nearly constant amount (the time to level out (flattening of the curve) varies with the WC% but is around one week for most of our situations). The actual curve if done by hours would actually form a sawtooth pattern but still in the general form of a learning curve.

Since the formula is a geometric series, the eventual amount of constant waste can be found using a simple formula:

S = a/(1-r) where "S" is the sum of the series (the eventual amount of waste in the tank), "a" is the initial starting value (a = 1 - WC%), and "r" is the ratio between successive terms (r = 1 - WC%).

So, if you are doing a 50% WC every evening: S = .5 / (1 - .5) = 1.

In other words, after about 5 days, you have approximately 1 day of waste in the tank at all times (it builds up during the day to almost 2 days of waste right before the water change).

A 33% water change gives you about 2 days worth of waste as a constant.
A 25% WC gives you about 3 days of waste.
A 10% WC gives you about 9 days of waste.
A 1 - 2% WC (10% every week) gives you around 75 days of waste!


I hope that made sense to somebody, it would be better with a graph but...

There is not a huge difference between 50% and 33%, or even 25% (though maybe to the discus) but the build up is big by the time you reach 10% water changes per day. And 10% per week, don't even bother.

[steck]

well the Stendker website is certainly interesting...several of their PDF guides indicate that 30 % WC once a week is sufficient... YIKES !!

[afriend]

Hello
I have an old question looking for new answers. What is it about water changes that makes our Discus look, feel and act much more healthy and robust? If your water parameters are ideal - temp, O2, nitrites, nitrates, ammonia level, gh, kh and ph - right on the money, then why do we still need to change out a percentage of already perfect water? I have a very high tech bio system set up, but because I have the time (retired in Florida), I still do 40% wc every day. I also have a user friendly set up for wc and actually enjoy it! So please, in my never ending quest for elusive (at least for me) knowledge, tell me why the fuss? I am in no way thinking of steering away from something that obviously works, just wanted to know. Thanks for your time.
Woodduck

Woodduck,

Assuming that the tank has a well established biological filter, the main reason for making large water changes is to remove dissolved organic compounds. DOCs come from two sources: uneaten food and feces. The DOCs are not harmful to the fish, however there are bacteria in every tank that feed on them and this results in other compounds that are toxic. This process is common in nature as evident by the foul smell of a dead animal or decaying vegetation. Water containing large amounts of DOCs, while appearing crystal clear, can contain more than sufficient contaminants to stress discus.

The thing about discus is that they are easily stressed, not only by the contaminants formed by DOCs, but by changes in temperature, Ph, overcrowding, and even the pecking order established in the tank. When a fish becomes stressed, it usually becomes lethargic, stops eating, and this makes the situation worse because it becomes more susceptible to pathogens (bacteria, virus, and parasites).

The immune system of the discus also plays a part in this equation. For thousands of years the immune system of the discus has evolved in water with a low Ph. Water with low Ph has not only far fewer pathogens, but also a different class of pathogens as found in water with much higher Ph. Thus when the discus becomes stressed in water that has not only a higher concentration, but also pathogens that the immune system has difficulty in overcoming, the result is usually not good for the fish.

Just because the water appears crystal clear, this is not sufficient for healthy conditions.

Paul

[Woodduck]

Second Hand Pat and Paul - now THAT'S what I was looking for. Thanks to everyone who reached out with help.
Woodduck

[CANAMONSTER]

Paul thats the exact answer I was also looking for! Thank you!

[steck]

Woodduck,

Assuming that the tank has a well established biological filter....this is not sufficient for healthy conditions.

Paul


yes, thx paul, appreciate the input.

[Woodduck]

One more. Because I'm not a chemist (but I play one on TV) and can't get inside all the fiqures and math, would it be the same to do two 25% wc a week or one 50% a week. I do 40% (actually 37%) everyday, but still trying to get a grasp on the science of the thing. Thanks
Woodduck

[Woodduck]

One more. Because I'm not a chemist (but I play one on TV) and can't get inside all the fiqures and math, would it be the same to do two 25% wc a week or one 50% a week. I do 40% (actually 37%) everyday, but still trying to get a grasp on the science of the thing. Thanks
Woodduck

[afriend]

One more. Because I'm not a chemist (but I play one on TV) and can't get inside all the fiqures and math, would it be the same to do two 25% wc a week or one 50% a week. I do 40% (actually 37%) everyday, but still trying to get a grasp on the science of the thing. Thanks
Woodduck

Woodduck,

The question of the math behind water exchange is discussed in detail in the following link:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?117869-Looking-to-set-up-a-tank-with-a-constant-flow-water-change-system

The discussion covers both the displacement method and the drip method and the comparison between the two.

To answer your question directly, theres not a huge difference between the two from the standpoint of removing contaminants from the water column. However, much more important is how often the feces and uneaten food are removed from the tank bottom. I believe that this should be done daily.

Paul

[prakash.dudharejiya]

https://youtu.be/qnud-FS-BDwhttps://youtu.be/qnud-FS-BDw