I have a stupid question

[cellingson]

I have raised fish for over 20 years and I have a gap in my knowledge when it comes to raising discus I was hoping someone could help me with.

Water changes. Preached adamantly on this forum the more the better. However I am just not getting why.

If it is to clean the excessive food…why not just feed, as I have learned, what the fish can consume in 15 minutes. Sit and watch and feed as they want, and when they stop eating stop feeding.

If it is for nitrates…why are they so high. If your water in has none, and your not creating lots of waste in your tank by not overfeeding, why then changing daily. Do people check nitrates daily to see if such frequent changes are needed? Can one check daily to see if a water change is needed based on detectable nitrates?

Is it for dissolved organics? Can a tds level check this and when a water change is in order?

To me it seems that the frequent water changes are counter productive. With daily water changes the cycled tank gets exposed to so little organic waste that beneficial bacteria decrease. Essentially the more you do the more "uncycled" your tank gets. So that should a waste overload ever occur, though minimal, the systems natural organic breakdown process can not handle it and a more toxic ammonia results in fish loss.

Thoughts

[nc0gnet0]

Thoughts

Your wrong on most all counts.

[cellingson]

Care to offer an answer to the question rather then criticize.

[DonMD]

I have raised fish for over 20 years and I have a gap in my knowledge when it comes to raising discus I was hoping someone could help me with.

Water changes. Preached adamantly on this forum the more the better. However I am just not getting why.


Because experience has taught that it works. I can't explain it other than to say that with a robust W/C schedule, I've experienced excellent success. But why not try to prove the adage wrong? Give it a go with few water changes, and let us know how it works out. It could be an experiment. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, because I see you have a lot of experience with raising fish. Perhaps you can find a way to cut down on the water changes, and we would all be very interested. -Don

[sdrexler078]

Food is not the only way the water gets dirty there's a lot of other waste. Also they use up nutrients that are in the water so daily water changes helps that. You can try to do once a week and see how they turn out but if you do the same setup with daily water changes you will notice a huge difference in their health and growth and a tds will just tell you the dissolved solids it won't tell you what those solids are. It has just been proven many times that daily large water changes are always best way to go

[cellingson]

No Don, I have no problem with performing daily water changes.
I was just curious if there is something I am missing. If it is based on experience then that is a great answer. If there is something in the water, then I was curious if anyone knew what it is and how it is getting there.
I have heard people say for nitrates and for food waste and that didn't make sense to me. So I thought I would ask.
Sounds like it can be a touchy subject.

[Kyla]

i dont believe there is such a thing as a stupid question. sometimes simple questions result in answers that everyone can learn from.

i dont have ur answer, but the redox potential is something to think about re: water changes. give it a google, as im not sciency enough to explain it ;)

[cellingson]

Food is not the only way the water gets dirty there's a lot of other waste. Also they use up nutrients that are in the water so daily water changes helps that. You can try to do once a week and see how they turn out but if you do the same setup with daily water changes you will notice a huge difference in their health and growth and a tds will just tell you the dissolved solids it won't tell you what those solids are. It has just been proven many times that daily large water changes are always best way to go


i dont believe there is such a thing as a stupid question. sometimes simple questions result in answers that everyone can learn from.

i dont have ur answer, but the redox potential is something to think about re: water changes. give it a google, as im not sciency enough to explain it ;)

Interesting thought. I do remember reduction/oxidation reactions from my college chemistry days.

[warblad79]

What have you been raising for the last 20 years? Gold fish, carp, Molly or Guppy. Those fish certainly don't need a lot of maintenance.

[Kyla]

although... as u may find out, there are such a thing as dangerous questions to post on a discus forum lolll

[XAnhLe]

although... as u may find out, there are such a thing as dangerous questions to post on a discus forum lolll

You have to understand, some questions were asked so many times, and people tend to stick with their beliefs regardless. Use the search function and you can find hundreds of thread on topics like this, and read. People like Rick probably answered these questions hundreds of time, they are probably tired of repeating the same thing over and over again.

[cellingson]

What have you been raising for the last 20 years? Gold fish, carp, Molly or Guppy. Those fish certainly don't need a lot of maintenance.

Since you asked
reef tank with corals and various fish for about 7 years when I was a teenager. I bought my first tank when I was 12, saved up my paper route money. 55gallon with coral gravel, under gravel filter, powerhead, heater, and condition. Cost me $249.99. Put all my money into it. Did lots of research. Followed Bob Fenner and his articles on FlyFishing.com (now live aquaria I think) religiously. Read his book and a few others. However nothing too extensive just soft corals and a few SPS, no HPS. I was a teenager working minimal wage and with minimal funds for high lighting. So I had to improvise. But I kept a fairly maintenance free tank with a sump I designed myself with refugime for algae control and nutrient removal, couldn't afford a protein skimmer.
I did discus for two years about 8 years ago. My wife bought them off Ebay and surprised me saying she unintentionally won something. The fish were from a guy I am not sure sells discus anymore. ZenGardens I believe. Nice guy. I never had discus before and so can't comment on the quality now or then. Well we had to get everything ready in a crash. Knew nothing about raising them. Got 3 in a heavily planted 40g tank. Raised from juvenile to adulthood. Certainly didn't become large fish by anyones standards they paired and bred, but left the hobby when I moved 8 years ago. The two that paired were about 5" when I sold them, the third close to 4".
Bred angelfish. That was easy
Done my share of freshwater planted with various shrimp. Lots of types and still experiencing with creating an Amano like tank.
Attempted to breed amano shrimp but that failed.
I did have a gold fish when I was 8, it got so big, I took it to the LFS and couldn't believe they would give me $2 for it. Can you even raise carp in a fish tank. Never liked the mollies, but my wife convinced me to buy one once. Did do some endler guppies.
So yeah just because I am curious why something is done doesn't necessarily make me stupid or uneducated. Asking questions and figuring things out is what promotes scientific advancement and intelligence.

[Kyla]

You have to understand, some questions were asked so many times, and people tend to stick with their beliefs regardless. Use the search function and you can find hundreds of thread on topics like this, and read. People like Rick probably answered these questions hundreds of time, they are probably tired of repeating the same thing over and over again.

oh i know :) i sometimes feel like a broken record too.

[rickztahone]

As someone mentioned, there are no stupid questions. I think that many people forget the fact that we care for some of the most care intensive fish. I've laid this out for people many times. If you want good looking discus that reach their full potential then you need to feed a good diet. Typically this means beef heart. If you've ever fed BH you will know that it fouls up the water like no tomorrow. I guarantee you that if you feed your discus BH daily and only do water changes 1-2's a week, soon you would have to be posting in our emergency section.

Again, it's easy, feed messy foods, you must remove this waste. If you find a magic bullet to remove these food particles from the water column without water changes, then I know if personally jump on that alternative. This is said with no hint of sarcasm. I know no other way to do it without the wc's add it stands.

[warblad79]

I think we should have a banner " Regular WC is the key of raising Discus". If you're here long enough, you should know that by now. Your question is not stupid, but rather redundant. Expert breeder (meaning people that raised from fry to adulthood) already answer this question 100x. To tell you the truth I don't even know or check my tds, PH GH KH, ammonia level, nitrates/nitrites and I don't think my tank is cycled. But I do aged my tap water for 24 hours and do 90%-100% WC daily. I also add seachem safe to my water barrel before I pour my water to the tank.

[cellingson]

I think we should have a banner " Regular WC is the key of raising Discus". If you're here long enough, you should know that by now. Your question is not stupid, but rather redundant. Expert breeder (meaning people that raised from fry to adulthood) already answer this question 100x. To tell you the truth I don't even know or check my tds, PH GH KH, ammonia level, nitrates/nitrites and I don't think my tank is cycled. But I do aged my tap water for 24 hours and do 90%-100% WC daily. I also add seachem safe to my water barrel before I pour my water to the tank.

Clearly a gap in reading my original post. I didn't ask if I needed to do regular water changes. I only asked if someone knew why we do so frequent water changes for discus fish. Don't suggest otherwise.
I am sorry if it was redundant to you, but you do realize 7 people responded to this question and 4 each gave a different answer, and the other 3 didn't even answer. If it was redundant I am sure I would have gotten a whole bunch of the same answers…cause everyones been answering this question. In fact some people would rather type paragraphs about why the post was dumb rather then say, "we do it for [blank]". The fact is I don't think anyone knows. Don's answer and what I found from following Xhanle suggestion to search the threads was that experience has shown that it just raises bigger and healthier fish. Which I am cool with. But now I know that if my nitrates are zero, and my tds is under 100, and the organic waste is not that great, my tank
could still benefit from a water change.

[XAnhLe]

Okay, I will try to say what I can, hope it will help...

There will never be such a thing as feed enough, there will always be leftover food. If you are feeding flakes, then flakes can break into tiny particles that are hard to see with the eyes. Fish also pick on them, eat some, and leave some leftover. If you feed beefheart mix, you have the same problem but worse, because beefheart dissolves quickly. If you are feeding pellets, you still have the same problem, so are freeze dried foods. Basically, you can never feed enough with no leftover.

It is not because of the nitrates alone. There are inorganic and organic molecules that break down over time from equipments, tank sealing, fish wastes, plant wastes, etc. Some organic waste can be decomposed by plants and some can't. TDS tells you the todal dissolved solids, they don't tell you what those solids are. Some are more harmful than others, this you don't know unless you have specific test.

Water change also help you replenish minerals which fish can use up quickly, especially during early days of development. You also have growth inhibiting hormone and overpopulating bacteria cultures that need to be controlled. Water change reduce population of bacteria, which is good, not counterproductive. Assuming you have some sort of filtration system, whether be wet/dry or a simple sponge filter, that's where most of your bacteria resides. The amount of organic wastes produce by fish in a short amount of time is enough to keep a good bacteria population survive.

[nc0gnet0]

The fact is I don't think anyone knows.

That's not true at all. One of the best and at the same time worst things ever evented was the water test kit. While greatly aiding us in letting us know if our tank is cycled, it serves very little other useful purpose. But for some reason with this grade school level kit, many people feel like they are now advanced chemists and have all they need to know about thie water quality.

It does nothing to tell us of the dissolved organics* in the water column, nothing about depleted trace elements, nothing about the harmful pathogens that accumulate at alarmly fast rates, and so on and so on. One must realize that a discus tank is typically a fairly heavily stocked tank in terms of weight of fish per gallons of water. Discus tanks are also typically on the higher end of the spectrum in terms of tank temperature, thus allowing for accelerated reproduction of parasites and bacteria.

We see posts such as yours almost weekly by new users, so excuse us if we sometimes come across as short, This topic has literally been discussed 1000 times over. Experience shows us what works. But don't take my word for it, feel free to browse over the disease section in the forum. You will find that a good portion of the sick fish in that section where direct results of poor care and insufficient water changes. Not all mind you, but I would say a majority.

*Oh and a TDS meter will not work to monitor dissolved organics. A tds meter is nothing more that an electro conductivity meter that measure the conductivity of the water. Trace minerals like calcium and magnesium will effect the TDS (softness). Dissolved organics are a rather large array of compounds mainly comprised of organic carbons, proteins, amino acids etc that do not effect the conductivity of the water, yet greatly effect the quality of the water. You could literally take a dump in your toilet and it would not effect the tds much, but I sure wouldn't want to live in it, bathe in it, let alone drink it.

[Loosir]

In my opinion, the answer to the OP's original question is "no". I do not think we as hobbyist know why daily water changes are required from a purely scientific point of view.

If it was problem cause by too many of something, ie. Nitrates, Organics, ect. than we would invent the gizmo that could remove it.
If it was a problem caused by lack of something, ie. trace elements, vitamins, ect. then we could dose them.

As of today, there is no known single or even group of measureable parameters in water that could be controlled which have been proven to grow Discus as healthy and large as daily water changes. No one has yet been able to conclusively diagnose which parameter of "dirty" water keeps the fish from growing as well and then produce a high quality batch of discus raised in this "manipulated" water.

Just my thoughts and observations, I have been wrong before:)
Geoff

[nc0gnet0]

As of today, there is no known single or even group of measureable parameters in water that could be controlled which have been proven to grow Discus as healthy and large as daily water changes. No one has yet been able to conclusively diagnose which parameter of "dirty" water keeps the fish from growing as well and then produce a high quality batch of discus raised in this "manipulated" water.

bah!

The reason for that is there is NO ONE parameter responsible for growing healthy discus, and the only way to reasonably and easily effect the MULTITUDE of parameters that effect healthy discus is a WATER CHANGE

-Rick

[Loosir]

bah!

Hey Rick, just wanted to make sure you knew I was agreeing with you. What in my comment was wrong?

[cellingson]

Thank you for the responses. I appreciate your time.

[Solid]

It works. I have tried less water changes and I am hard headed that's why I'm on my third batch of fish.

+1 to Mud.

[warblad79]

In my opinion, the answer to the OP's original question is "no". I do not think we as hobbyist know why daily water changes are required from a purely scientific point of view.

If it was problem cause by too many of something, ie. Nitrates, Organics, ect. than we would invent the gizmo that could remove it.
If it was a problem caused by lack of something, ie. trace elements, vitamins, ect. then we could dose them.

As of today, there is no known single or even group of measureable parameters in water that could be controlled which have been proven to grow Discus as healthy and large as daily water changes. No one has yet been able to conclusively diagnose which parameter of "dirty" water keeps the fish from growing as well and then produce a high quality batch of discus raised in this "manipulated" water.

Just my thoughts and observations, I have been wrong before:)
Geoff

Your thoughts are wrong, First of all you don't need to manipulate or tweak your water domestic discus are design to handle tap water as long as it's stable. That's why you need to aged the water for 24 hours and add Safe or Prime before water transfer. Just like what Rick said "One of the best and at the same time worst things ever invented was the water test kit" as for discus they are nice to have when your breeding discus so you can monitor your parameters but if you're just growing fish they are not required. Even before when I'm breeding my fish I don't even check my PH or TDS, I just aged my water in the barrel, add Sera peat, drift woods and almond leaves. I get at least 100+ hatch rate. Have you ever wonder why is the amazon river system are moving or flowing? and where the minerals are coming from? Just imagine if the amazon is stagnant and how do they get replenish. Here's my thought since I've been watching BBC/National Geographic about Amazon rain forest and river system. Those minerals are coming from the top of the mountain goes to water stream and pass down to the river system. That's why the water is always fresh and replenish all the time with tons of minerals no wonder the fishes in the amazon are very healthy and thriving. Same concept when you have Discus tank, you have to simulate their own environment by replenishing through water changes. Filtration does not replenish water, it only removes the bad stuff in the tank but If you do water change it serves as a dual purpose. You're not only replenishing the tank but also removing the bad stuff as well.

[Loosir]

Your thoughts are wrong

I'm sorry guy's but I'm feeling like no one is reading my post correctly. I do 75% water changes daily and I agree with both of you. Why don't you guy think I'm saying WC are needed? Is my grammar wrong?



As of today, there is no known single or even group of measureable parameters in water that could be controlled which have been proven to grow Discus as healthy and large as daily water changes. No one has yet been able to conclusively diagnose which parameter of "dirty" water keeps the fish from growing as well and then produce a high quality batch of discus raised in this "manipulated" water. (Ie. NO WC does not work better then daily WC)

[rickztahone]

I'm sorry guy's but I'm feeling like no one is reading my post correctly. I do 75% water changes daily and I agree with both of you. Why don't you guy think I'm saying WC are needed? Is my grammar wrong?

lol, it may have been your wording. In threads like this, it is easy to gloss over peoples replies. I hear what you are saying, I know what you are doing in your tank, and I know how successful you have been, as does Rick and other members. As I said before, and this has all been said already, WC's are needed because discus are simply messy fish and we feed them messy foods. The naked eye can not see all broken down matter, but it doesn't mean it isn't there. The accumulation of all of these things (DOC's) are what cause water parameters to not be ideal for growing out discus. BUT, there has been an easy solution found over many years which all of our breeders know well here, and they do not keep it secret! It is water changes! Why try to reinvent the wheel when there is a time tested solution to growing great discus. Loosir, you personally know the benefits of this, as do thousands of other discus owners. We just tend to keep repeating the same thing over and over because many people simply do not want to do daily or every other day water changes. Simple as that.

Can you grow out discus with once a week water changes and feeding bad food? Absolutely. Will they have reached their full potential? Absolutely not. Would they be healthy? No one can predict this, but the probability of having sick discus are far higher with bad water conditions.

This is one thing I tell people to do when they are first starting in the hobby. Browse the forum for a local enthusiast or even a breeder or disbributor of discus that does daily water changes and feeds a good diet. Go look at their discus. More than likely they will have 6"+ discus in their tank. Most people are amazed on how large an actual discus can get because all they have to compare it to is LFS quality discus. If you see a dinner sized discus in a tank, I guarantee you that you will want to have a discus like that. You will ask how they got them that way. They will say, feeding a good diet, and a lot of water changes. YOU will start doing daily WC's from that point forward.

All everyone is trying to do here, is save you that trip to someone's house to see their discus, but sometimes, it is necessary, lol.

[Loosir]

Thanks Ricardo! I appreciate you comments, and I agree with you!
Thanks
Geoff

[nc0gnet0]

Hey Rick, just wanted to make sure you knew I was agreeing with you. What in my comment was wrong?

This statement here:


No one has yet been able to conclusively diagnose which parameter of "dirty" water keeps the fish from growing as well

my emphasis was that it was not a singular parameter, but rather a host of parameters. I took your statement to be saying it could possibly be just one, when it most defiantly is a combination.

[ESXiGuy]

I consider myself a noob with Discus but just applying a few reasoning skills - one can arrive at the following conclusions.

1 - Simply Discus members can be reasonably assumed to be better at Discus husbandry than new people to the hobby off the street.
2 - People who keep them for many years, breed them, treat them, sell them - all advocate for frequent water changes.
3 - If there is one attribute that ties all successful Discus keepers together, it's frequent water changes.

Based on 1,2,3 - the more water changes the BETTER.

How much can OP get away with regarding water changes? It all depends on too many individual factors and goals.

I am all for one am interested in strategies to reduce the number of water changes needed but at the end of the day, there is no perfect substitute for taking old water out of a closed system and bringing in fresh new water.

[rickztahone]

I consider myself a noob with Discus but just applying a few reasoning skills - one can arrive at the following conclusions.

1 - Simply Discus members can be reasonably assumed to be better at Discus husbandry than new people to the hobby off the street.
2 - People who keep them for many years, breed them, treat them, sell them - all advocate for frequent water changes.
3 - If there is one attribute that ties all successful Discus keepers together, it's frequent water changes.

Based on 1,2,3 - the more water changes the BETTER.

How much can OP get away with regarding water changes? It all depends on too many individual factors and goals.

I am all for one am interested in strategies to reduce the number of water changes needed but at the end of the day, there is no perfect substitute for taking old water out of a closed system and bringing in fresh new water.

Hit the nail right on the head there.

[afriend]

I have raised fish for over 20 years and I have a gap in my knowledge when it comes to raising discus I was hoping someone could help me with.

Water changes. Preached adamantly on this forum the more the better. However I am just not getting why.

If it is to clean the excessive food…why not just feed, as I have learned, what the fish can consume in 15 minutes. Sit and watch and feed as they want, and when they stop eating stop feeding.

If it is for nitrates…why are they so high. If your water in has none, and your not creating lots of waste in your tank by not overfeeding, why then changing daily. Do people check nitrates daily to see if such frequent changes are needed? Can one check daily to see if a water change is needed based on detectable nitrates?

Is it for dissolved organics? Can a tds level check this and when a water change is in order?

To me it seems that the frequent water changes are counter productive. With daily water changes the cycled tank gets exposed to so little organic waste that beneficial bacteria decrease. Essentially the more you do the more "uncycled" your tank gets. So that should a waste overload ever occur, though minimal, the systems natural organic breakdown process can not handle it and a more toxic ammonia results in fish loss.

Thoughts

cellingson,

Your question is probably the single most important question for keeping healthy discus. Personally, I do not consider the answer "do it because it works" to be an adequate answer. Here's my take on your question.

Assuming that the tank has a well established biological filter, the main reason for making large water changes is to remove dissolved organic compounds. DOCs come from two sources: uneaten food and feces. The DOCs are not harmful to the fish, however there are bacteria in every tank that feed on them and this results in other compounds that are toxic. This process is common in nature as evident by the foul smell of a dead animal or decaying vegetation. Water containing large amounts of DOCs, while appearing crystal clear, can contain more than sufficient contaminants to stress discus. The decay process also results in a large increase in pathogens existing in the water column

The thing about discus is that they are easily stressed, not only by the contaminants formed by DOCs, but by changes in temperature, Ph, overcrowding, and even the pecking order established in the tank. When a fish becomes stressed, it usually becomes lethargic, stops eating, and this makes the situation worse because it becomes more susceptible to pathogens (bacteria, virus, and parasites).

The immune system of the discus also plays a part in this equation. For thousands of years the immune system of the discus has evolved in water with a low Ph. Water with low Ph has not only far fewer pathogens, but also a different class of pathogens as found in water with much higher Ph. Thus when the discus becomes stressed in water that has not only a higher concentration, but also pathogens that the immune system has difficulty in overcoming, the result is usually not good for the fish.


If it is to clean the excessive food…why not just feed, as I have learned, what the fish can consume in 15 minutes. Sit and watch and feed as they want, and when they stop eating stop feeding.

Your approach to feeding is a good one. However the second source of DOCs (feces) is probably more important than uneaten food because feces exist 24/7 even if they are cleaned daily. Without adequate daily water exchanges, the DOCs will continue to build up until they saturate the water column.


Do people check nitrates daily to see if such frequent changes are needed? Can one check daily to see if a water change is needed based on detectable nitrates?

Nitrates are not particularly toxic to discus providing that they are reduced to levels below 20 ppm with frequent water change. Some discus keepers recommend a level less than 10 ppm.


Is it for dissolved organics? Can a tds level check this and when a water change is in order?

TDS meters do not measure DOCs.


To me it seems that the frequent water changes are counter productive. With daily water changes the cycled tank gets exposed to so little organic waste that beneficial bacteria decrease. Essentially the more you do the more "uncycled" your tank gets. So that should a waste overload ever occur, though minimal, the systems natural organic breakdown process can not handle it and a more toxic ammonia results in fish loss.

Frequent water changes are NOT counter productive. While it's true that the beneficial bacteria will be reduced with good housekeeping, they will establish an equilibrium level consistent with the amount of ammonia available. Ammonia is produced by the nitrification process from three sources: uneaten fish food, feces, and the digestive process of the fish. Also, once firmly established, the beneficial bacteria can quickly adjust to changes in the amount of ammonia available.

Hope this helps.

Paul

[cellingson]

Thanks to all. Now I am not only educated but can educate others.

[The Irons]

Cellingson, I am with you on this topic. I've kept fish for many years & had a reef setup for about 15 years- was lucky enough (or unlucky depending on how you view it )to have Gigas clams spawn on several occasions, now that is a serious DOC overload on a system. Reef systems need pristine water quality & anyone in the hobby would test for nitrates, phosphates, etc not to mention all the terpens released by the corals. Yet, despite all those nasties in the water, I could not only get by, but propogate corals with a 10% weekly WC. You have gotten so many varied answers here- one post even saying something to the effect of "the water in the rainforest has all these minerals"-Wild Discus water has almost zero mineral content, so more confusion. I'm new to Discus & currently keeping a group of Wilds. I believe in WC's, but would much rather give a smaller (or less frequent) WC of pristine quality water, than say daily WC of conditioned tap water. Any long time hobbyist knows the saying "The solution to pollution is dilution" & I totally believe in it, I'm just not sure the dilution part has to be so extreme. My WC routine is 20% every 4/5 days with 20% raw well & 80% RO & I filter with peat to keep the pH at 5.9-6.3 region. The Wilds are happy & growing, so not going to change my routine at this point-unless someone can prove to me why. Fireworks time

[Larry Bugg]

What size are your wilds and what size were they when you got them? I ask because most often wilds are only available as young adults/adults and are at the most in the slow growing time of their lives vs the first 6 months of their lives.

I don't think this thread ever really noted anything about discus age but it plays a LARGE role in this conversation. Most of those who have a great deal of experience here are talking about growing out young discus when we talk in terms of "large, daily" water changes. It is during the first 4 to 6 months of a discus life that they are going through a heavy growth period and the condition of the water plays a crucial role in their health and growth. It is during this growth period that they are most susceptible to the parasites and bacteria that Rick referred to earlier. When it comes to young adults/adults you will get more varied answers from the experienced posters here but most will agree that large daily water changes are not required as they are with juvies. Some may say you still need to do daily changes but smaller amounts and some will tell you it is ok to make medium changes every 3 to 5 days. Like I said the answers will vary.

I hate to make assumptions but my assumption here (lol) is that most of the answers given were referring to growing out young discus.

Here is an interesting read...

http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/water/72-heterotrophic-bacteria.html

[The Irons]

The original poster didn't mention anything about growing out young fish, unless I missed that part & so apologize . However if most of the experienced hobbyists are assuming that, then you cannot blame the original poster for their assumptions. I understand raising Discus fry/young will need different regime to sub adult/adult Discus due to bone growth etc, but I believe that is a totally different subject & not really what OP was meaning . As to your actual question to me, The Wilds were in the 4/5" range when I got them & approx 5 months later are 6"+ (maybe 1 or 2 at 7)

[The Irons]

My group are posted in the planted/biotope section (under MY Wilds)... sorry but by the time I figured out how to link it, this post would be closed.

[Larry Bugg]

The original poster didn't mention anything about growing out young fish, unless I missed that part & so apologize . However if most of the experienced hobbyists are assuming that, then you cannot blame the original poster for their assumptions. I understand raising Discus fry/young will need different regime to sub adult/adult Discus due to bone growth etc, but I believe that is a totally different subject & not really what OP was meaning . As to your actual question to me, The Wilds were in the 4/5" range when I got them & approx 5 months later are 6"+ (maybe 1 or 2 at 7)

You are correct, the thread did not mention a size and that was part of my point. Here is what the op said "Water changes. Preached adamantly on this forum the more the better. However I am just not getting why." Most of the experienced posters on this forum don't preach adamantly that "more is better" when talking about all ages of discus. We could and should however do a better job of clarifying this though. Part of the problem is that less experienced posters pick up on the "more is better" when the discussion is centered around growing out young discus and then use that advice when inappropriately giving advice to others about discus in general.

You used your own wilds as an example that you can do less and still get good growth and I asked about the size because wilds are collected during the dry season and so we rarely see very young wilds. When they reach the size yours were they are no longer in a rapid growth stage and they don't need as many large water changes as very young discus do. Because of this your discus are not a good example of whether or not younger discus can be grown out with less water changes.

I can tell you from my own experience growing out young discus that large water changes are needed if one wants their discus to reach their growth potential. Rick pointed out the reasons this is true and the collective experience of the long time keepers on this forum support the claim.

I just felt it was important to clarify that there is a difference in good advice given when talking about really young discus and young adults.

[Frankr409]

Here is an interesting read...

http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/water/72-heterotrophic-bacteria.html



This was an interesting read, Larry. Thanks.

[discusmat]

Well folks I will add my 2 cents worth here since we are talking water.
Now I hate to admit this because it is not my normal thing to do,but do to my spinal issues I have had to deal with these past 3 yrs
My water change routine got changed drasticly.I change my water once a month right now.My fish and water are all just fine.My tank
has been established for about 8yrs now.Now I am not saying I have not had my share of issues,but for the most part it has not changed anything
in the tank as far as how they act.My normal routine was 50% weekly.

[The Irons]

I really appreciate the clarification & enjoyed the read, Larry.

[Kyla]

that was a really interesting read larry! bacteria competing to colonize surfaces and consuming their fallen enemy! intense lol!! i knew i'd learn something from this thread

[Mad357]

that read was intense(brain still recovering) no one mentioned about the slime discus produce. thanks everyone for the knowledge!!
mike d.