filtration

[stevemg]

what's the best type of filtration to use on discus tank external or internal filter


thanks

[Second Hand Pat]

This is really based on each person and the goals of the tank. For a simple growout, breeding or QT setup many people use sponge filters. For display tank many people opt for canisters or sump systems. For simplicity it's hard to beat a sponge filter.
Pat

[dragon1974]

+ 1 on Sponge filters. I had a lot of can-filters in my time. From the HOB to fluval fx 5 to the original eheim's and now I'm only on sponges with K1 kaldnes Bottles. 2 main reasons for this is the electric bill was becoming a problem and when you try to clean the filters it took way too long. Now I can clean my sponges in a matter of mins and I'm back in business and my electric bill isn't pissing me off as I only have 1 big air pump running for 3 tanks.

[FMA4ME]

When you run just a sponge filter, Am I correct in assuming you're doing at least 1 big water change a day, and if for some reason you couldn't do a water change for a couple days, you'd be screwed?

[dragon1974]

No I'm doing every 2 days 80%. Sometimes (but not often) I can't do a 2 day WC and it goes to 4 days. I've not had any problems

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u208/dragon1974_photo/Mobile%20Uploads/20150430_181532.jpg (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/dragon1974_photo/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150430_181532.jpg.html)

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[John_Nicholson]

When you run just a sponge filter, Am I correct in assuming you're doing at least 1 big water change a day, and if for some reason you couldn't do a water change for a couple days, you'd be screwed?

Why do you think sponge filters do not work? They do a wonderful job of growing bacteria.

-john

[FMA4ME]

Why do you think sponge filters do not work? They do a wonderful job of growing bacteria.

-john

I know they work, it's just as an only filter I was wondering. I use one, and actually the only place food and debris
build up is on top of and under it. I'm thinking of getting rid of mine for that reason. I know it is also important to keep your filters clean, you can't beat the ease of cleaning a sponge filter, but imho a single sponge filter can't support a discus tank without being tied to it.

[FMA4ME]

No I'm doing every 2 days 80%. Sometimes (but not often) I can't do a 2 day WC and it goes to 4 days. I've not had any problems

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u208/dragon1974_photo/Mobile%20Uploads/20150430_181532.jpg (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/dragon1974_photo/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150430_181532.jpg.html)

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Great set up Dragon. I shoot 2 birds with one stone and have my sponge blow thru my k1 or other media.

[DISCUS STU]

I use canister filters (Eheim 2215 & 2217) tried and true. Also UV sterilizers since the price of the bulbs have come down. The people using sponge filters seem to have very good results but they also seem to have very disciplined water change regimens with an average of 50% being changed a day and often holding tanks to condition their water. I can't argue with their success, I just don't have the resources and space for that.

In any event, technology doesn't replace water changes and they still need to be done.

BTW, those are some very nice juvies and with proper care they should grow up to be beautiful adults.

[dragon1974]

Thanks Stu, I'm really keeping up with 2 day changes. I've gone a week long vacation already and came back with no problems.

So far so good and they are showing great progress. Anyway, the filter issue, don't get me wrong, I loved my can-filters but it was a personal issue for me. The sponges are working out and as you said I have 3 barrels that I age my water in. So I just fill up the day before and heat, the next morning I'm cleaning.
I don't think I'll go back to can-filters for a while just because of the cleaning and power issue.

[John_Nicholson]

I know they work, it's just as an only filter I was wondering. I use one, and actually the only place food and debris
build up is on top of and under it. I'm thinking of getting rid of mine for that reason. I know it is also important to keep your filters clean, you can't beat the ease of cleaning a sponge filter, but imho a single sponge filter can't support a discus tank without being tied to it.

So if you don't use a sponge filter where do you think that floating debris will accumulate? Inside your other filters where you cannot see it and it can rot?

-john

[FMA4ME]

So if you don't use a sponge filter where do you think that floating debris will accumulate? Inside your other filters where you cannot see it and it can rot?

-john

It's food that I worry about accumulating. My fish for some reason seem to have trouble getting the food off the sponge, or have trouble getting to the food under it. They spend a lot of time trying for it and usually get the top stuff, but it accumulates under.I may try one of those dual sponge designs that mount to the side of the tank.

[rickztahone]

It's food that I worry about accumulating. My fish for some reason seem to have trouble getting the food off the sponge, or have trouble getting to the food under it. They spend a lot of time trying for it and usually get the top stuff, but it accumulates under.I may try one of those dual sponge designs that mount to the side of the tank.

additionally, many members here have created their own sponge filters that put the sponge off the ground. John may be one of them (?) and I believe Tony (MKD) also made some that get them off the ground. Search their username and you will see what I am talking about.

[Ryan]

When you run just a sponge filter, Am I correct in assuming you're doing at least 1 big water change a day, and if for some reason you couldn't do a water change for a couple days, you'd be screwed?

A sponge filter is both a biological filter (holding the colony of nitrifying bacteria required to process ammonia/nitrites) and a mechanical filter (pulling small particulate out of the water). It is accomplishing the same goals as a canister, a HOB, or a wet-dry. The difference is that those other types just become a box full of feces and uneaten food because they suck up all these things from your tank and store them in their filter media. Yes, it removes it from your tank and makes it look nice, but at what cost to the health of your fish and the quality of your water? Essentially it's just sitting there, rotting away out of view, polluting all the water that passes through the filter and pumping it back into your aquarium. Water changes can help keep the water quality in check, but it doesn't address the real root of the issue which is a dirty filter.

So when you think about it, the accumulation under/around a sponge is a good thing, because you can SEE it, and therefore remove it. Thirty seconds with a siphon and bucket can accomplish that. Then you can just squeeze the sponges in a bucket of tank water to rinse them every week or two. But how often are people breaking down a Fluval FX5, draining it, unhooking the hoses, hauling it outside or to the tub, opening it, removing the baskets and rinsing everything, reassembling it, etc.? The longer you go between filter cleanings, the more crap that's accumulating in there. I belong to a bunch of cichlid groups and I've seen people who say they clean their canister once every six months! I can't even imagine what the inside of a canister looks like after six months. I usually go a month on my HOB (with prefilters) and they're still disgusting.

People in the hobby have been sold this lie for decades that the bigger, fancier, and more expensive a filter is, the better it's going to be for your aquarium. At the end of the day they all perform the same task. Yes, you can add fancy chemical filtration pads/resins/pouches to things like canister and wet-dry filters, but aside from those (usually unnecessary) specific applications, a filter is really just there to provide biological filtration and polish your water by removing waste/food particles. You can accomplish this with a $10 sponge or a $300 FX5. But consider that maintenance on a sponge is worlds easier, they are way cheaper, and if your air pump goes out, it won't cost you an arm and a leg to replace like a canister motor.

In terms of efficiency, I have never had sponges falter. I keep two per 55 and four in my 150. The 150 has 15 angelfish getting three feedings a day and never have I had ammonia or nitrite readings. I only do one or two large water changes a week. As long as the sponges are cycled they'll handle heavy bioloads well. If you don't think they're keeping up, you can add more sponges or even buy the pieces to stack them so you have double sponges.

This is a plea to everyone reading this: please, please do yourselves a favor and learn what aquarium filtration actually does, and how it accomplishes it. Learn the difference between mechanical, biological, and chemical filtration, their applications, and how clean water (via water changes) plays a very important roll in the end-game of the cycle. It will be immensely helpful as a fish keeper. There is so much misinformation out there, and a lot of nonsense pushed to people by manufacturers of certain products (and the LFS who sell those products) that make you think you need something elaborate or fancy. You don't.

The only downside I've ever found to a sponge filter is the aesthetic aspect. They're ugly. If you have a show tank in your living room or office, no one wants to see them. In that instance, I have fallen in love with wet-dry filters. You can hide your heaters in them, and the filter media can be kept very simple. They are also easily accessible so they're easy to clean, much more than a canister. There's also plenty of surface area for your biological filtration. Just make sure to have a fine pad/foam/batting to catch all the crap and food, and wash/change it OFTEN. I change mine with every water change. Having said all that, 95% of my tanks are not show tanks, so sponges it is.

[FMA4ME]

No that accumulation is not a good thing. That food would be better in the stomach of my fish.
Also sponges can hold as much junk as any other type of filter. Do you think giving it a couple squeezes gets out most of what is in there? You only have a box or sponge of crap if you let it get that way.

[Ryan]

If you're having issues with food stuck under the sponges, you either need to get the ones that mount to the side of the glass, or make the ones that sit on the bottom taller. You can buy individual components for Hydro sponges. I put a double stand in all my sponges so they sit about 3" off the bottom. Discus can easily eat food from under them.

Yes, squeezing a sponge until the water runs clear is cleaning it out. My point is that it's much quicker and easier to pull those and clean them than breaking down something like a canister.

[kemp]

A sponge filter is both a biological filter (holding the colony of nitrifying bacteria required to process ammonia/nitrites) and a mechanical filter (pulling small particulate out of the water). It is accomplishing the same goals as a canister, a HOB, or a wet-dry. The difference is that those other types just become a box full of feces and uneaten food because they suck up all these things from your tank and store them in their filter media. Yes, it removes it from your tank and makes it look nice, but at what cost to the health of your fish and the quality of your water? Essentially it's just sitting there, rotting away out of view, polluting all the water that passes through the filter and pumping it back into your aquarium. Water changes can help keep the water quality in check, but it doesn't address the real root of the issue which is a dirty filter.

So when you think about it, the accumulation under/around a sponge is a good thing, because you can SEE it, and therefore remove it. Thirty seconds with a siphon and bucket can accomplish that. Then you can just squeeze the sponges in a bucket of tank water to rinse them every week or two. But how often are people breaking down a Fluval FX5, draining it, unhooking the hoses, hauling it outside or to the tub, opening it, removing the baskets and rinsing everything, reassembling it, etc.? The longer you go between filter cleanings, the more crap that's accumulating in there. I belong to a bunch of cichlid groups and I've seen people who say they clean their canister once every six months! I can't even imagine what the inside of a canister looks like after six months. I usually go a month on my HOB (with prefilters) and they're still disgusting.

People in the hobby have been sold this lie for decades that the bigger, fancier, and more expensive a filter is, the better it's going to be for your aquarium. At the end of the day they all perform the same task. Yes, you can add fancy chemical filtration pads/resins/pouches to things like canister and wet-dry filters, but aside from those (usually unnecessary) specific applications, a filter is really just there to provide biological filtration and polish your water by removing waste/food particles. You can accomplish this with a $10 sponge or a $300 FX5. But consider that maintenance on a sponge is worlds easier, they are way cheaper, and if your air pump goes out, it won't cost you an arm and a leg to replace like a canister motor.

In terms of efficiency, I have never had sponges falter. I keep two per 55 and four in my 150. The 150 has 15 angelfish getting three feedings a day and never have I had ammonia or nitrite readings. I only do one or two large water changes a week. As long as the sponges are cycled they'll handle heavy bioloads well. If you don't think they're keeping up, you can add more sponges or even buy the pieces to stack them so you have double sponges.

This is a plea to everyone reading this: please, please do yourselves a favor and learn what aquarium filtration actually does, and how it accomplishes it. Learn the difference between mechanical, biological, and chemical filtration, their applications, and how clean water (via water changes) plays a very important roll in the end-game of the cycle. It will be immensely helpful as a fish keeper. There is so much misinformation out there, and a lot of nonsense pushed to people by manufacturers of certain products (and the LFS who sell those products) that make you think you need something elaborate or fancy. You don't.

The only downside I've ever found to a sponge filter is the aesthetic aspect. They're ugly. If you have a show tank in your living room or office, no one wants to see them. In that instance, I have fallen in love with wet-dry filters. You can hide your heaters in them, and the filter media can be kept very simple. They are also easily accessible so they're easy to clean, much more than a canister. There's also plenty of surface area for your biological filtration. Just make sure to have a fine pad/foam/batting to catch all the crap and food, and wash/change it OFTEN. I change mine with every water change. Having said all that, 95% of my tanks are not show tanks, so sponges it is.


so are sponges your primary? starting a new 350 litre (92.5 ish gallons) tank and was interested in sponges for primary as opposed to with hob or simply running a canister. never tried sponges bit clueless on them. any help would be much obliged.

[Filip]

When you run just a sponge filter, Am I correct in assuming you're doing at least 1 big water change a day, and if for some reason you couldn't do a water change for a couple days, you'd be screwed?

I would also agree with this .
And I don't think you can compare a single 5 cube -inch sponge with +40 pounds of biological filter media that canisters or HOB or a sump can hold inside in terms of surface area for BB colonies.
They all have to be clean inside lacking rotten food and debris buildup, that's understandable.

[walt]

I run an fx 6 and eheim 2217 in my 120 one month I clean Fx 6 next month clean the 2217 so I clean one of the filters every month seems to be working

[Mustanggtandgsxr]

for what its worth. I had a canister filter and I hated the darn thing. The hoses were hard to clean and the media would get disgusting if I missed a cleaning. I got rid of it and went with sponge filter and works great. to clean the canister filter it would almost take me 30 min. with a sponge filter its a couple minutes.

[mee]

I think I get your issue, and though many might say you need to clean better and so on.. and yes they have a point...

I would add, that I think you are using the very tight cell, and likely cheaper sponges. If you buy from kensfish for example
their are the standard sponges and the pro versions. the pro versions are lower ppi, IE more open cells, and more similar material
to poret or reticulated foam, so it lasts much longer and it will drag in more debris. Yes it's still there, but you will also have more bacteria
in these types of sponges to deal with it, and it won't be where the fish can easily nibble at it and potentially get sick. About half my sponges
are this material, as it's harder to get in my neck of the woods, and kens costs to much to ship to me since I am outside the US, unless I do a
larger order. I am working on getting some reticulated foam though, and I would recommend this or poret if you have the means. I wring out
my sponges every 2 or 3 days at least (more often daily, or rotate every other day which ones), and the open larger cell type are much easier
to do this with as well as the cheaper high ppi, traps allot of smaller debris, and piss and what not deep inside. It feels clogged, and I doubt they
are very efficient except when fairly ne. My forearms get tired by the time they squeeze clean, and often find myself saying "good enough" before
it is truly clean. These cheep kind are however good for fry as the larger holes can trap them especially with significant air flow.. but you can get
high ppi reticulated foam/poret and have a better version for the fry.

[Cosmo]

It's food that I worry about accumulating. My fish for some reason seem to have trouble getting the food off the sponge, or have trouble getting to the food under it. They spend a lot of time trying for it and usually get the top stuff, but it accumulates under.I may try one of those dual sponge designs that mount to the side of the tank.

Ken's sells, or used to sell, spacers that you can add to the base of the spong filter so the filter sits higher and you can easily suck out anything that accummulates under the filter. Ken is a sponsor you check out his page and see if he still sells them. you can add as many as you like but I usually stick to two

[afriend]

what's the best type of filtration to use on discus tank external or internal filter


thanks

Here's a canister filtration system that really does the job. It's intended for a show tank and does a spectacular job at keeping the tank pristine clean.

95631

Here's a description of what it is and how it works:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122462-Part-4-The-Filtration-System

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122468-Part-5-How-the-Filtration-System-Functions

Paul

[modealings]

A sponge filter is both a biological filter (holding the colony of nitrifying bacteria required to process ammonia/nitrites) and a mechanical filter (pulling small particulate out of the water). It is accomplishing the same goals as a canister, a HOB, or a wet-dry. The difference is that those other types just become a box full of feces and uneaten food because they suck up all these things from your tank and store them in their filter media. Yes, it removes it from your tank and makes it look nice, but at what cost to the health of your fish and the quality of your water? Essentially it's just sitting there, rotting away out of view, polluting all the water that passes through the filter and pumping it back into your aquarium. Water changes can help keep the water quality in check, but it doesn't address the real root of the issue which is a dirty filter.

So when you think about it, the accumulation under/around a sponge is a good thing, because you can SEE it, and therefore remove it. Thirty seconds with a siphon and bucket can accomplish that. Then you can just squeeze the sponges in a bucket of tank water to rinse them every week or two. But how often are people breaking down a Fluval FX5, draining it, unhooking the hoses, hauling it outside or to the tub, opening it, removing the baskets and rinsing everything, reassembling it, etc.? The longer you go between filter cleanings, the more crap that's accumulating in there. I belong to a bunch of cichlid groups and I've seen people who say they clean their canister once every six months! I can't even imagine what the inside of a canister looks like after six months. I usually go a month on my HOB (with prefilters) and they're still disgusting.

People in the hobby have been sold this lie for decades that the bigger, fancier, and more expensive a filter is, the better it's going to be for your aquarium. At the end of the day they all perform the same task. Yes, you can add fancy chemical filtration pads/resins/pouches to things like canister and wet-dry filters, but aside from those (usually unnecessary) specific applications, a filter is really just there to provide biological filtration and polish your water by removing waste/food particles. You can accomplish this with a $10 sponge or a $300 FX5. But consider that maintenance on a sponge is worlds easier, they are way cheaper, and if your air pump goes out, it won't cost you an arm and a leg to replace like a canister motor.

In terms of efficiency, I have never had sponges falter. I keep two per 55 and four in my 150. The 150 has 15 angelfish getting three feedings a day and never have I had ammonia or nitrite readings. I only do one or two large water changes a week. As long as the sponges are cycled they'll handle heavy bioloads well. If you don't think they're keeping up, you can add more sponges or even buy the pieces to stack them so you have double sponges.

This is a plea to everyone reading this: please, please do yourselves a favor and learn what aquarium filtration actually does, and how it accomplishes it. Learn the difference between mechanical, biological, and chemical filtration, their applications, and how clean water (via water changes) plays a very important roll in the end-game of the cycle. It will be immensely helpful as a fish keeper. There is so much misinformation out there, and a lot of nonsense pushed to people by manufacturers of certain products (and the LFS who sell those products) that make you think you need something elaborate or fancy. You don't.

The only downside I've ever found to a sponge filter is the aesthetic aspect. They're ugly. If you have a show tank in your living room or office, no one wants to see them. In that instance, I have fallen in love with wet-dry filters. You can hide your heaters in them, and the filter media can be kept very simple. They are also easily accessible so they're easy to clean, much more than a canister. There's also plenty of surface area for your biological filtration. Just make sure to have a fine pad/foam/batting to catch all the crap and food, and wash/change it OFTEN. I change mine with every water change. Having said all that, 95% of my tanks are not show tanks, so sponges it is.

This is probably the 2nd most influential piece of advice I've read since coming to the forum (after the importance of wc's). A few months ago I was messing around with hob AQ110s and canister filters. They where a hassle to clean and to turn off/on during wc's. Also every time I left for a day or two Id wonder if the power might go out and they wouldnt restart. Also it didnt seem to make sense to wipe down the tank multiple times a week but only wipe down the filters every 1-2 weeks. With sponges there is much less hidden space that I can't wipe down.

Now its just 2 big sponges ($12 each) in each 75 gal tank with a 2 outlet ($11) air pump from Walmart. Its really simplified things.

[Phillydubs]

I know this is an old thread but I just have to agree with the ease and great use of a sponge! I always use them in my tanks and always will, I usually try to hide them as best I can in a back corner because they aren't pretty... But I'll take an ugly sponge and gorgeous healthy fish any day over a sponge less tank and lacking fish because those damn canisters are a pain in the rear to clean. I will say I have for a while now always had an aquaclear HOB as well. I like the way it breaks the top of the water and turns the water over at a fast rate. It is very easy to pull off the tank and clean, at least for me, I have a routine down...

Sponges all the way though!! There is a reason they have been around and used forever?

[Braydon00]

I know this is an old thread but I just have to agree with the ease and great use of a sponge! I always use them in my tanks and always will, I usually try to hide them as best I can in a back corner because they aren't pretty... But I'll take an ugly sponge and gorgeous healthy fish any day over a sponge less tank and lacking fish because those damn canisters are a pain in the rear to clean. I will say I have for a while now always had an aquaclear HOB as well. I like the way it breaks the top of the water and turns the water over at a fast rate. It is very easy to pull off the tank and clean, at least for me, I have a routine down...

Sponges all the way though!! There is a reason they have been around and used forever?
Agree 100%, I just got 2 sponge filters and love them. I have 2 sponges and 2 aquaclear 110s. When I clean them I do the 2 aquaclears one day and a couple days later clean both sponges. Sponges are by far easier to clean. Get a bucket with tank water, put them in and squeeze a couple times and youre done.

[Eti]

Very interesting.
I have been a sump user for a while and I love the fact that it hides all the equipment. My only concern is that when I have some food stuck in there, it is a nightmare to clean. I was thinking about using two sponges like the Hydro foam for the ease of use.
Question: is there a minimum GPH for the air pump needed? What I have now is EcoPlus 728355 6.5W 4 Outlet Eco Air Pump, 253 GPH but I want to make sure it is enough for my 66 G tank.
Thank you!