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pgrhodes1
07-23-2015, 10:51 AM
Hi All,

As I've posted before I now have my sump/refugium up, running, and loving it. My nitrates have all but disappeared and there has been a huge change in my fish. The only time they get aggressive is when they lay eggs. Even then they peck at each other but nothing to write home about. They are eating everything I feed them so my water changes are a third of what they used to be. Because I only change a little water everyday I no longer have to age my water. For the first time I am REALLY enjoying my fish!!

Now my question. Why in the world did people give up sumps/refugium and go to canisters?? I change my filter sock every day so nothing has a chance to sit in there and rot. This takes me less than a minute. With canisters all that stuff sits in there for weeks, or months. No wonder water quality is affected. Would never go back.

DISCUS STU
07-23-2015, 11:46 AM
Glad to hear that your're happy and enthusiastic with the results. I've always liked this idea even when they were first introduced as wet/dry filters a long time ago. Originally people had to make their own which I wasn't up to at the time. Can you add some details regarding tank size, bb or not, the type of sump/refugium brand, set up and costs. Looking into this from your post I'm trying to figure out what it would cost to have a complete setup for a 90 gal, bb tank.

Canister filters predate this and go back to the 70's (Eheim) even though I don't go back that far. I use two canisters in circuit now with UV sterilizers on the outflow but would like to get an economic handle on what actual costs are, including consumables, like micron filters, etc. I don't age my water now, no room for that, but double dose with Prime.

pgrhodes1
07-23-2015, 04:30 PM
Hi Stu,

I have a 92 gal corner tank. I added Azoo substrate and plants when I did the sump. I ended up getting the Ecosystem 3012 sump/refugium. You can look it up on their website. It is expensive; however, I'm unable to make my own and it is pretty simple. I actually had someone come out and install but I ended up having to redo everything anyway. Should have done it myself from the beginning but thought it was over my head. I also purchased the mag12 pump and filter socks from ebay. The only reason I aged my water was because of the ph difference in tap (7.6) vs tank (8.3). Now that I don't have to change so much water I no longer have to worry about it.

Hope this helps.

alcastro
07-23-2015, 04:52 PM
Do you have plants growing in your miracle mud.
AL

pgrhodes1
07-23-2015, 04:59 PM
Yes, I ordered a bunch of Wisteria and it is growing like nothing I've ever seen. Right out of the top already.

rickztahone
07-23-2015, 09:32 PM
Glad to hear that your're happy and enthusiastic with the results. I've always liked this idea even when they were first introduced as wet/dry filters a long time ago. Originally people had to make their own which I wasn't up to at the time. Can you add some details regarding tank size, bb or not, the type of sump/refugium brand, set up and costs. Looking into this from your post I'm trying to figure out what it would cost to have a complete setup for a 90 gal, bb tank.

Canister filters predate this and go back to the 70's (Eheim) even though I don't go back that far. I use two canisters in circuit now with UV sterilizers on the outflow but would like to get an economic handle on what actual costs are, including consumables, like micron filters, etc. I don't age my water now, no room for that, but double dose with Prime.

If you choose to make your own sump, you can easily make one for under $100-$150 plus media.

Phillydubs
07-23-2015, 10:06 PM
I have to say, although not the most attractive to Look at I love my aquaclear. I had a sump in a 72 bow and it was a pain to clean and get to etc... I enjoyed not having to see anything and being able to add the heaters and what not in there. But for ease of cleaning and all the hob takes the cake for me.

navarro1950
07-27-2015, 03:31 AM
I use both refugium and canister on m 125. The refugium is a eshopps r-200 in which I use the miracle mud 2 which is for freshwater and the canister is a fx6. I am going from a planted tank to discus and that's why I added the refugium. I also have planted the wisteria to the fugi since it like the nitrates most. Over the wisteria I use a 18'' marineland led and the wisteria grows out the top of the fugi so it has to be trimmed .

Tshethar
08-04-2015, 10:15 PM
Great to hear what people are running; like a lot of people, I've run both, and like both, but have also had issues with both.

Sumps

Pros: Larger water volume, usually using bigger pumps turning over more tank water, more space for biological filtration plus other options (refugium/algae scrubber, hidden reactor for chemical media, etc., space to hide heater). They can be easier to do regular maintenance on, but it varies by design.

Cons: Can be a lot noisier--design of overflows and drains is critical, and sometimes choice and location of pump, too. (Noise was why I ditched my last one.) Can lead to flooding if there are any design flaws (no siphon breaks near the water line, for instance, or chance for a u-tube to get blocked in some setups), or if there is a little too much amateur plumbing (like the kind I do). Evaporation can potentially lead to problems with low water level if you go away, or can lead into auto-top offs and other systems engineering. Some designs, like the old ones I've had, included chambers in hard-to-reach places that were difficult to clean. (Sure got tired of using silicone airline to siphon detritus from under bio-balls...)

Bottom line: They're great, but don't get the cheapest used one you can find; it's all in the design.

Canisters

Pros: Good ones are ultra-quiet and you can add more than one if you need to get flow rate where you want it. Most can be filled with whatever kind(s) of media you want, and left alone for long periods. I'm new to discus so interested in opinions here, but... seems to me that if you keep a good sponge prefilter on the intake, you can avoid too much detritus build-up, and leave them to run as mostly biological filters for extended periods. They can also feed easily into other accessories (in-line heaters, sterilizers, reactors) with ordinary hoses and clamps, and be changed out without too much trouble.

Cons: O-rings and seals need maintenance and they can leak at any time. (The fewer the better.) They generally do take more time to service when one needs to break them down, and if neglected may lead to problems. They can be expensive for the amount of water they move and the chamber size for media--definitely more so than the alternative.

Bottom line: I really like the Eheims I've gotten, and haven't missed the old sump I had. I have had occasional leakage with non-classic models, which now sit in plastic garbage bags, and I lubricate the o-rings when I open them up. If setting up a large system now, I'd be tempted to go with a well-designed sump, but love the quiet in my living room right now. I'm also trying a small HOB refugium; curious to see if there's enough space in it to benefit the system, though not sure I'll have an easy way (or desire) to measure that.

One idea or question: has anyone tried filling their canisters with Poret foam (10-20-30) and leaving them alone for very long periods? Is it realistic to imagine them turning into HMFs (with denitrification), thus reducing the urgency of opening them up at more regular intervals? I personally have thought about switching most of my media out in favor of Poret, but I don't know if it's really worthwhile.

rickztahone
08-04-2015, 10:56 PM
Good analysis Bill. I had never had a sump prior to the one I currently have, and I am very satisfied with the noise level, or lack-there-of. However, I have no basis of comparison to other overflow systems. As far as canisters go, I loved my Rena's. I've had quite a few over the years. I have bought used and also had no problems with them