Longwinded newcomer looking to cover the bases... tips and thoughts welcome!

[Tshethar]

First off, thanks to all the long-time, dedicated folks for producing and maintaining the forum as a resource. I’ve been browsing, searching, and reading deeply for the past month or so—I’ll admit it, almost obsessively—but that last element makes me think I might be able to keep discus successfully. At minimum, I’m getting myself prepared to give it a go, and would welcome some extra tips and tricks.

Following Pat’s template…

1) I moved the long version of my life-story to the 'intro' thread... short version: had a love for fish for the past 25 years, I'm now a busy mid-life person in his 40s, first time planning to do discus. The unabridged version will let you know what I've kept and where I've lived!

2) I have been reading seriously on here for the past month or so, and have been able to slowly process some of the usual shock people feel about what has become normal for most of you—i.e., BB tanks, lots of WCs, etc. My past experience has me inclined to try out a few filtration system design ideas, etc., but I’ve learned a lot from my reading here and would like to think I can adapt.

3) This tank is a one-of-a-kind, as far as I can tell. It’s a Craigslist find from about 4 years ago that I drove a ways to get thinking it was going to be a 125. Turns out it’s 72x16x18, which adds up to about 80G, but personally I (mostly) like it for the long footprint. Well-suited to the Tanganyikan sandsifters I previously kept in it, and is fitting into my wife’s plans for the dining room. It’s on a low stand which makes it easy to get into; it’s a lot easier to vacuum than the 4’ 120 it replaced. Right now it’s sitting outside on the porch waiting to be worked on—trying to hide some scratches by buffing with cerium oxide (we’ll see if it helps), and then planning to re-silicone and paint the back and bottom.

4) While it lives in the dining room—no fish room for me—I’m going to make the aesthetics of the BB work. I have a few pieces of driftwood I bought and some java fern I can attach (after I bleach it). I may try to attach the wood to the back of the tank if there’s an easy way to do so, or will clean around a couple of pieces. Will sit a potus plant and a philodendron on top and let them root in the water.

5) Okay, I admit that the WC schedule freaks me out. I have and use a python, and usually do 50-70% WCs 1x/wk on my Tang tanks, straight from the tap with some prime and a little baking soda slurry, but every other week has also worked well, so the routine has varied depending on other housework, yardwork, etc. Given that I’m looking at juvie fish, I realize I’m going to have to go at least to 2-3x per week. It seems like even people without fishrooms and automated WC systems get used to this, so I’m hoping that will be the case for me as well. May need a pump to move water out faster... And I do want to ask some of you about other water parameters, and I'm hoping to avoid aging water.

6) Here I’m looking to a) use what I have; b) experiment with some new concepts; and c) I’ll admit it, buy myself some insurance for those times of the year when I have to travel or get swamped with life, and don’t want that to result in disaster. Main bio-filter is going to be an Eheim 2229 that I got used a couple of years ago, with some new o-rings, and substrat-pro, run with a sponge prefilter. Am also going to run an Eheim 2217 I have on the other side, with part of the return feeding a PhosBan 550 set up as a Purigen reactor, and the main flow going through a Hydor 300watt inline heater plugged into a Finnex temperature controller, followed by an Aqua 2000+ 15w UV. I’ve also decided to try out a refugium for the first time, so I’m going to try playing with a Finnex hang-on box with water wisteria. At minimum I ought to be able to keep nitrates down.

7) Planning to keep tank at 82 degrees. Need a new lower range ph kit, but tap water looks to be around 6.5 with low (<50 GH and KH, assuming old test kits are remotely accurate)… waiting to see if it changes after a day. I’m not sure about buffering as I haven’t really had to watch this in years with my Africans, who lived with shells and a few odd helpings of baking soda I threw in with water changes. Haven’t yet gotten deep into reading about conductivity and TDS on here, but may need help understanding how, when, or whether to pay attention to these. May also need help with medications—not much experience here, outside of using Cupramine to get rid of problem snails imported once from my pond, and erythromycin to deal with cyanobacteria. I have ordered some Prazi and Levamisole for QT, but have little experience treating symptomatic fish. Not looking forward to too much first-hand learning with this stuff, but I guess that’s what the forum is for…Let me know if I ought to have anything else on hand.

8) Have decided to do discus only, and to grow out a group of young fish. Like the idea of doing either 7 or 9, from around 2.5-3.5” in size, and right now leaning toward Stendkers from Hans. Looking at pics and videos only gets me so far, but I’m kind of liking the look of, let’s say, “wild-inspired” domesticated fish, and I was thinking of doing either 2-3 varieties, with the Stendker Tefes maybe being the featured fish. Would it make sense to do 4-5 of these, complemented by 3 Marlboro reds, and 2 of something else? I’ll say more about goals below, but mostly it’s for look and enjoyment, though I think breeding behavior could be part of that.

9) Have sent off for some Cobalt flakes and pellets, and was planning to order FDBW from Al (not sure cubes or loose); beyond this, not sure yet what I want to get into. I could see once a day feeding something frozen, or homemade, but I’m wondering if very good growth can be maintained while keeping the water relatively clean. I have a couple of Eheim automatic feeders, so fish can get some flakes and pellets while I’m at work—no problem feeding them small amounts 5-6x with these.

10) Goals are: stay sane, have fun, keep learning, appreciate beauty, enjoy animal communication and care, treat pets ethically… probably not for show, but maybe for hobby breeding, hopefully with my son.

Thanks for reading, and for all the help I’ve already received.

[Altum Nut]

A second Welcome to Simply Discus Bill after the warm welcome from Pat in your intro first post.
If your set on that tank foot-print you currently have it will have to work aside that it does not leak after re-silicone attempt, however a taller at 24" would be my choice.
Your 2217 filter should be sufficient along with a sponge filter driven via air-pump. I still feel that getting 2-3" Discus maybe an issue noting you may not be able to carry out a number of w/c's that will indeed be needed to grow-out Discus to their full potential size.
I have never used any source of UV lighting so I can't comment if even required and never had any issues.
As Pat mentioned in the other thread...stable ph is the key and don't worry if yours is high or low. I have to emphasize the importance of water quality with Discus over Africans that you've kept.
You seem to have the temp at par and know that tap water needs to be treated for the total tank volume and not just what volume you’re changing.
At this point I suggest you just do not dive in without checking further in the Beginners Section Sticky and ask at will any concerns you may have along the way.
Bill, get your tank sealed, painted, sanitized and set-up but unsure if you’re tempted to do a fishless cycle or cycle with some fish you currently have on hand.
I'm sure I possibly missed something, so feel comfortable that Simply is here to guide you along.
Enjoy the addiction...

...Ralph

[rickztahone]

Welcome Bill. I read your other post as well and I agred with Ralph has said.

Additionally, 72x16x18 = ~90G. I know it isn't a huge difference, but 10g's counts sometimes :).

[Tshethar]

Thanks a lot, Ralph and Ricardo, for the further encouragement. Ricardo, wanted to tell you that I enjoyed seeing your video of the new acrylic tank (and your helpers), and I applaud you for the Bean Animal standpipe. The reason I have the odd sized tank that I do is that the reef-ready 120 I used to have in the living room was a problem from a noise standpoint. (I made my own Durso-style standpipes when I got it but the used wet/dry I had picked up did not allow an easy way to get the return line underwater. There was always gurgling and splashing, and to eliminate that without risking water on the floor is such a great thing.) I also thought your placement of a dedicated drain line for WCs is a great plan.

Updates:

1) Cerium oxide with buffing wheel to remove scratches from glass seems not to have worked. Maybe someone with more experience or better skills could have improved things, but I actually managed to make my glass worse, probably with some granules of sand or the like that had been trapped under loose silicone... :-( I was thinking about this re. the glass vs. acrylic question... we all know acrylic scratches more easily, but supposedly it buffs out easily, too; if glass scratches, well... not so much. Related thought #2: I'm less a fan of sand substrate that I was when I started with it a few years ago. A good deal of the scratched glass has to do with sand+algae magnet, sometimes even when I thought I was paying attention (albeit with some help over the years from my toddler.) If there's a silver lining, it's that I have to accept the ancient tank I have ain't perfect for a show tank--so I can get on about learning about caring for the fish and worry less about the peripherals, like aquascaping, background, etc.

2) spend hours getting every last hint of silicone out of the tank and resealed the tank this afternoon. Amazing how quickly you get a skin on that stuff in 95+ degree weather... what I thought was a nice first attempt at doing this got a little ugly when I pulled the painter's tape off only a few minutes (<5) after applying. We'll see if my damage control worked... I'll be happy now if it holds water. Also bought paint, which will go on shortly.

3) HOB "refugium" arrived today. Truthfully, the think looks a little cheesy and it's really small... it may be that internet marketing combined with renewed zeal for the hobby led to a questionable choice on my part, but... I'm still curious to experiment and see if strong concentrated lighting on fast growing plants rooted in Florin Volcanit Rio Escuro and growing above the water line (to get atmospheric CO2) will lead to some nitrate control and overall system stability. Something to try, anyway, and I don't think it can hurt.

Questions:

1) On Cycling the (kinda) New Tank: I have a liter of Eheim substrat-pro media sitting in a breeder box in a 10g hospital tank with a hydro-sponge, some java fern, and my xenotilipia. I mostly wanted to help keep this fish alive during the move, since the sponge and the 10g had not been in use. I've been unsure about whether to use this media to jump-start my cycle on the discus setup or not. Still have pure ammonia in the cabinet from my last fishless cycle, and I actually got some Seachem Stability in case it would be better not to risk any kind of contamination. So, can go either way depending on recommendations.

2) On Stocking Options: I've been a little all-over-the-map with my thinking here, and need some help. As Ralph notes, it may be too ambitious to start with 2.5-3" fish if I'm not entirely certain I can do daily WCs. Obviously there is $ at issue here to some degree, but I am trying to invest up front on some things and if I need to start with fish that are a bit bigger, I can accept that. The other thing is that I'm having a little trouble figuring out where the tank will go from here, and I'm trying to figure out how people mix discus given that they like to pair off at a certain point and lay eggs. On the one hand, my impulse is think about having enough of a certain strain or two so that one ends up with pairs of the same strain together--this is part of what shaped my stocking idea above. And I personally love the biotope look with a single-species, and aquascapes that in some way evoke a "natural" look. On the other hand, I also enjoy color and variety, and these qualities are visually stunning in a different way and can offer a kind of whimsy, if you will, that I think my wife and son will enjoy more than the first option. Basically, option #2 likely means ordering from Kenny--he really does have striking fish-- but what I'm not sure of is how many varieties or how to stock with the future in mind. Do folks worry about who pairs up with whom? Do people tend to do a whole lot of singletons, or would you recommend something like 3x3x3, or 4x3x2? It might be presumptuous to think I'll end up with breeding pairs at some point and would actually be raising fry, but it does seem like many folks on here at minimum do end up with courtship and eggs... Also, am I right to think that 3-3.5" fish are qualitatively different from 2.5-3", and a more realistic size to work with?

Okay, that's it for now. Thanks for reading and for anyone's input!

[rickztahone]

I'm going to try to tackle as many of your questions as possible, but first, I wanted to thank you for the compliment on my build :).

As far as buffing out acrylic, I have never done it, but from my research, you must get the right tools, and be ready to spend a fair amount of time buffing the acrylic out. I am not sure what went wrong with your situation. Care to share with us what you used?

Yet another thing I have not done myself is reseal a tank. I congratulate you on trying it, but I am a nervous Nelly when it comes to things of that nature when I think that something I fixed may one day just give way with all my prized fish in it. So long as you did it by the book, you should be fine. A leak test is absolutely necessary here though.

I have never heard of a HOB fuge. It may be one of those gimmicky items that tries to mash 2 concepts together? If so, try it out (since you already bought it) and be very objective about it. If you notice it does work, keep using it. If it doesn't, don't hesitate to chuck it out the window, after you check that there is no one there.

On cycling: I can't recall fully, the 10g tank has BB on the media from fish you plan on adding to your larger tank? If so, then using that media shouldn't be a problem. However, if you are starting fresh, and DO NOT plan on transferring any of these inhabitants to your larger tank, then I suggest using the ammonia to do a fishless cycle again. You can use stability or pond balls to help speed up the process. I am not sure how effective they are, but some have had success with them.

Stocking: This is the more difficult dilemma you face. This determines many things about your setup. If you do not plan on doing large water changes, you have to be looking at discus in the 4.5-5.5" range. You can definitely do 6"+, but that typically costs an arm and a leg. In the long run, this is better for many, I have done this in the past, but the upfront cost is a deterrent many times.

As far as mixing discus, discus will mix no matter what unless you are running 1 strain only tank. They choose at their leisure, and they do become rather territorial as they become more sexually mature. I suggest you lock down on what it is you want, 1-2 strain tank, or a candy bowl of discus strains. This is the first step in deciding what your tank will look like. Just to share a piece of my history with discus, all but 1 of my tanks was a planned strain(s) tank. I knew I wanted a certain look, and I built my whole system around that. This goes for my planted only tanks and shrimp tanks in the past. Try to set your goals up, envision what it is you ultimately want, and then design around that. This makes life so much easier IMHO.

Lastly, 2.5-3" vs 3-3.5" isn't a huge difference. Within a few months the smaller ones would be past the 4" mark because at first they grow really fast. It is once they get close to 4-5" that they start growing much slower and it is more difficult to grow them out fully.

Well I hope that answers some of your questions.

[Tshethar]

Thanks, Ricardo--appreciate the advice.

As a newbie I find the stocking question to be the hardest to contemplate. I personally tend to like the approach you took, but also hope to hook my wife (maybe a lost cause for pets) and son (still a good chance), and obviously there's a lot to choose from. Wrote Kenny and will have a talk with him on the phone for some more input on the stocking. Either way I'm sure we can enjoy what we have as long as we keep them healthy and growing.

As the system planning continues, one thing that I've clarified for myself is that putting energy into making WCs easier and more efficient really ought to be a top priority. As I had the tank sitting outside and full of water to check on how visible the scratches would be the other day (I can live with them), I decided to check how long the thing took to drain with the standard vinyl tubing I had. IIRC it was more than half an hour, maybe 40 min, and this was with a short piece as opposed to the 50ft run I usually have going to a shower drain. Basically, the main reason I would want to avoid WCs is because it means Python tubing laying across the house for an hour or more every time I do them with my current practice. It's basically a trip hazard and it ties up a bathroom--not something you want on a daily basis. It's so slow I usually end up walking away from it, doing other things, and then coming back, which in the end usually means there's fish stuff out all afternoon.

So, in thinking about solving this issue I discovered that I can get a cheap 1000gph submersible pump for less than $30 on Ebay, and spend some $ on 1" or 3/4" vinyl tubing that I think could pump out most of the tank volume in 5 minutes or so. I don't know what others have found, but if the whole routine can be taken care of in 15 minutes or less, it's a lot easier to imagine keeping up with big water changes daily or every other day. Since the frequency and volume seems so key to virtually everyone's practice on here, I need a way to accomplish these with whatever fish I get. (Do people have a tubing size they'd recommend here that's best to work with?)

Cycling: will take your advice and go fishless. The xeno is not returning to join the discus! We'll see if the seachem product works as advertised... like their stuff in general.

Tank restoration: I tried doing exactly this for the glass scratches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JErQ72NH4jA. Not to knock the product or process, but I would have been better off putting the $ in the new tank budget instead. At least this "learning through experience" exercise didn't harm any fish, and trying things out is part of the joy of the hobby, at least sometimes. :) I have also wanted to attempt resealing a tank for a while--including this one when I got it because the silicone was already pretty bad, and in this day and age there are good examples online of how to do it. (I also still remember watching my boss at the LFS years ago doing a hexagonal tank or two in the back room--anyone remember all the seams on those things? yikes.) Anyway, you can be sure the leak test will take place, and it will be outside on the patio!

[rickztahone]

Thanks, Ricardo--appreciate the advice.

As a newbie I find the stocking question to be the hardest to contemplate. I personally tend to like the approach you took, but also hope to hook my wife (maybe a lost cause for pets) and son (still a good chance), and obviously there's a lot to choose from. Wrote Kenny and will have a talk with him on the phone for some more input on the stocking. Either way I'm sure we can enjoy what we have as long as we keep them healthy and growing.

As the system planning continues, one thing that I've clarified for myself is that putting energy into making WCs easier and more efficient really ought to be a top priority. As I had the tank sitting outside and full of water to check on how visible the scratches would be the other day (I can live with them), I decided to check how long the thing took to drain with the standard vinyl tubing I had. IIRC it was more than half an hour, maybe 40 min, and this was with a short piece as opposed to the 50ft run I usually have going to a shower drain. Basically, the main reason I would want to avoid WCs is because it means Python tubing laying across the house for an hour or more every time I do them with my current practice. It's basically a trip hazard and it ties up a bathroom--not something you want on a daily basis. It's so slow I usually end up walking away from it, doing other things, and then coming back, which in the end usually means there's fish stuff out all afternoon.

So, in thinking about solving this issue I discovered that I can get a cheap 1000gph submersible pump for less than $30 on Ebay, and spend some $ on 1" or 3/4" vinyl tubing that I think could pump out most of the tank volume in 5 minutes or so. I don't know what others have found, but if the whole routine can be taken care of in 15 minutes or less, it's a lot easier to imagine keeping up with big water changes daily or every other day. Since the frequency and volume seems so key to virtually everyone's practice on here, I need a way to accomplish these with whatever fish I get. (Do people have a tubing size they'd recommend here that's best to work with?)

Cycling: will take your advice and go fishless. The xeno is not returning to join the discus! We'll see if the seachem product works as advertised... like their stuff in general.

Tank restoration: I tried doing exactly this for the glass scratches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JErQ72NH4jA. Not to knock the product or process, but I would have been better off putting the $ in the new tank budget instead. At least this "learning through experience" exercise didn't harm any fish, and trying things out is part of the joy of the hobby, at least sometimes. :) I have also wanted to attempt resealing a tank for a while--including this one when I got it because the silicone was already pretty bad, and in this day and age there are good examples online of how to do it. (I also still remember watching my boss at the LFS years ago doing a hexagonal tank or two in the back room--anyone remember all the seams on those things? yikes.) Anyway, you can be sure the leak test will take place, and it will be outside on the patio!

I thought you had an acrylic tank? The video is for glass scratches removal.

With regards to water changes, do yourself a huge favor and invest in one of those pumps. Once you do, there really is no turning back. The Rio pump I bought so many years ago is still going strong for me and now will be on aging barrel duty once more. I paid more than $30 back in the day and it has more than paid for itself on saved time :). The way I have my current tank drilled, I can do close to 50g in a few minutes. I adapted a hose barb and vinyl tubing to remove detritus from the tank floor. Even if you find a good way to do a water change, vacuuming off the tank floor is still very important.

[Tshethar]

Sorry to confuse with excess verbiage... tank is glass.

I'll definitely plan to pick up an inexpensive but powerful pump to help with the WCs. Really interested in maximizing efficiency there... it may seem like a small thing, but I am interested in exactly what type and size of hosing people have found is easiest to deal with; the quicker and easier the whole operation, the better. Also, I do have an Eheim battery-powered vaccuum around I can also use to help with the tank bottom in addition. (I think I'll like using it a lot better without the sand substrate.)

Happy to report the tank is holding water as of now... seems the silicone job went better than the glass polishing.

I'm a little disappointed at the results of spray painting. It's mostly okay--back seems pretty good--but on the bottom I ended up with some air pockets. I either need to re-do or that's where the driftwood goes... In the past I brushed on black latex with no problems, and will probably go back to a brush or roller next time. Maybe it's the high heat and humidity here; waited until nighttime to do it outside so temps would be <90.

Meanwhile, supplies continue to trickle in...

Enjoyed talking and writing with Kenny about stocking ideas... got an idea of what kind of budget parameters I'm looking at and would love to place my order today... but...alas, I'm wise enough (barely) to run the system (oh yeah, like cycle the tank!) and work out tweaks first. Well, that and the negotiations with my wife, now cast in the role of prudent protector of finances, will now be entering a delicate phase... :p

[rickztahone]

When working on spray painting cars, this is the worst weather to do it in. You want to be in the 70-80F range for a good coat. With that said, you can spray paint it and be done with it in the shade somewhere