From reef to discus

[Hart24601]

Hey everyone, great information here, I have not gone over everything on the site, but I am working on it! Very recently do to some medical issues, I decided my reef was too much for me to handle at this time. I am still in the process of selling most of it, but I am planning on using the tank for discus and want some thoughts. I had discus when I was a teenager in the 90s and still love them. The tank a custom Miracles 120 rimless with external overflow with 3/4" starfire glass and sump. I am thinking of keeping the sump and APEX controller. I have an autowaterchanging setup with the apex and it should be easier to use it with freshwater, I think it can do 30 gallons a day. I can set up brute trash cans to auto fill with tap water for the AWC, I have a 1.1ml/min dosing pump that I can use to automatically put a very small amount of prime in every hour if needed. So that should pretty much automate waterchanges. I will also keep the auto-topoff. I was also planning on using a vortech mp40 that I have for flow inside the tank. Perhaps eventually run an algae scrubber in the sump. Thoughts??

I was thinking of a very simple large driftwood centerpiece that comes out of the water, but I am not sure about substrate if any. I also don't know where to get the driftwood or find my own. Tankmates? I think a bunch of cardinal tetras might look cool with 12 discus, or would only discus be better for looks? I was also thinking of picking up some kessil amazon sun LED units, not for plants, but the their reef lights have fantastic color rendition. This is all a ways off as the reef has not been totally parted out yet. Just looking for ideas. Discus Hans looks like a good place to order from, maybe 3" guys. Also, do you think all 1 type of discus looks more striking or a variety. I really like the blue pigeon blood on their site, but the pigeon snake skin and leopard snake skin are amazing too.

Here are the last set of pics before the breakdown began:

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/3r_zpsevllzq8e.jpg
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/1r_zps54zyhpcs.jpg
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/4r%201_zpsyvmqampz.jpg
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/2r_zpsxlyemhee.jpg
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/4r%202_zpsa8yygdkk.jpg

[Discus-n00b]

Amazing tank!! Puts my small reef to shame lol Especially love those teal tip stags and that deep purple/green tort (cali?) that shows up in a few pics behind the fish. Can't get over the colors of those sticks! Love me some sticks.

Welcome to Simply! Tons of information here! I personally would recommend and go barebottom myself, especially starting out. It's much easier to keep clean. Especially if you are planning on growing the fish from 3". If you must have substrate a light sand layer might do just fine. Just something that doesn't trap waste or makes it easy for you to remove the waste. Visually I find tanks with tankmates just as appealing as a tank full of healthy discus. LEDs are great lights to use IMO, love the shimmer. That is all I put over my tanks anymore. With the correct color I think all of one strain is more striking. The bold colors, red, yellow, or orange PBs, Blue Diamonds or Cobalts, etc. Personal opinion. You'll be looking at the tank so you tell us! ;)

Hans would be an excellent source for the fish. Hard to go wrong there. Not to dissuade you from Hans as like I said, excellent source, but we also have many other sponsors here on the site that have been hand selected to provide hands down the best discus and service in the discus world (Hans included) and you may be local to one of these so you can go see the fish in person.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?42-SimplyDiscus-Sponsors

[Hart24601]

Thanks for the link, I hadn't noticed the sponsor section! I appreciate the advise too.

Sounds like bare bottom wins for the same reasons I ran it in the reef. All same type of discus with a lot of cardinals sounds pretty sweet. Now to obsess about the driftwood... Sounds like I can pick some out from the lake near here and mount to slate. It's hard to pick it out online.

[Hart24601]

What k value have you found that you like for discus? I read that 5k makes reds pop more, but I think that is pretty yellow overall? The kessil Amazon sun are adjustable from 6-9k.

I see it's not recommended to have plants with discus at 1st. What about Java fern on the driftwood? Not a full on planted tank.

Ok, one more. I have seen a lot of opinions on this site about how many cardinals with some saying low numbers and others really high. Ideally could I do 100 cardinals and 10 discus?

[Hart24601]

Sorry so many questions...

Even with some Java I don't want a full on planted tank, but in Iowa our tap phosphates and nitrates are very high 10-15ppm plus. I am thinking about running a waterfall algae scrubber in the sump to help with that since I won't have many, if any, plants. I wouldn't reduce waterchanges since it's automated, but seems like a scrubber might be worthwhile. I have seen mixed threads about it, just curious if anyone has more info besides what the search brought up. Thanks!

[rickztahone]

Hello Hart and welcome to SimplyDiscus :).

As far as K value, I have found that anywhere from 6k-10k is fine. I have a range of that in my LED fixture and like it very much. Since you aren't going fully planted, the fixture is a lot less important, and can be a much wider range.

As far as the low light plants? Java is a great one, but many don't like their root system because they collect a lot of detritus. Personally, I really like it, but anubias are at the top of my list for low light plants as well. Some mosses are really nice too, but many require a little more than just low light.

[Hart24601]

I hadn't thought about the roots collecting detritus, that is a good point. They sure are pretty though!

The reef has a black back and black bottom under the glass. I was reading this causes issues with coloration? I saw Universal Rock sells a sculpted background, but I don't know how it would look in there and I could put down some white starboard on the bottom if needed, but how bad is the coloration with a dark bottom under the glass? The lights matter at all?

I also wonder how much of a pain that background would be with algae.

[Discus-n00b]

I feel like the background has more of a role with darkening the fish than the bottom, personally. I have black neoprene under my tanks and when it was barebottom with discus it didn't seem to cause a real issue. I think because the lights hit it directly and light it up, the background stays a bit shadowed. I find it varies per strain of the fish as well.

[Hart24601]

That is interesting, I guess a rock background might be in my future. Now how to make it looks good with the external overflow and returns... Run it to the glass edge and cut out a notch for the overflow and drill holes for return, or run it to the waterline and have the glass come out over the top of it... Any suggestions? The shelf rock they sell would probably look silly with a cutout.

[rickztahone]

That is interesting, I guess a rock background might be in my future. Now how to make it looks good with the external overflow and returns... Run it to the glass edge and cut out a notch for the overflow and drill holes for return, or run it to the waterline and have the glass come out over the top of it... Any suggestions? The shelf rock they sell would probably look silly with a cutout.

check out my current tank build in my signature. Maybe you can go with something similar? Lighter colors are best with discus IMO/IME. Pigeon blood discus, or rather, PB's, are notorious for "peppering" (showing dark spots along the body) in dark environments. However, discus quality plays a huge role here as well.

[Second Hand Pat]

Something like this...

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7284/16931155281_c05d740bf4_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/rN9AAn)[/url][url=https://www.flickr.com/people/129594174@N08/] (https://flic.kr/p/rN9AAn)

[Hart24601]

Both those look good, are they the same thing and what are they? I didn't see it in the thread, but I might have missed it.

[Second Hand Pat]

Ricardo and I used similar methods for covering the overflows. Might be the same background also.
Pat

[rickztahone]

Both those look good, are they the same thing and what are they? I didn't see it in the thread, but I might have missed it.


Ricardo and I used similar methods for covering the overflows. Might be the same background also.
Pat

yup, Pat turned me on to this background and I simply cut it with scissors. I will mention, cutting it isn't a walk in the park, lol.

[Second Hand Pat]

yup, Pat turned me on to this background and I simply cut it with scissors. I will mention, cutting it isn't a walk in the park, lol.

Yup and best to warm it in the sun first.

[rickztahone]

Yup and best to warm it in the sun first.

also true. I set it on my roof for like 2 hours or something and it made it far more pliable.

[Hart24601]

So what exactly is it?

[rickztahone]

So what exactly is it?
Do you mean the background? It's some kind of composite of textured material treated in resin I believe so it won't leech

[Hart24601]

Did you make it? I didn't see a vendor, maybe I missed it.

[rickztahone]

Oh, sry, I misunderstood. Here's the one I got

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GZ1X6Y/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_3cfWvbV7BNTSV

[Hart24601]

Fantastic, thanks. I was looking at universal rocks. Sounds like you both like it so I will pick one up. Any reason to use their river stones or just go find some?

I picked up a really cool driftwood off eBay.

[Hart24601]

28x20x20

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/C537B0E5-3544-4F90-ABD1-0EA36D3ACFF1_zpsbi2k7qtk.jpg (http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/Bret_Hartman/media/C537B0E5-3544-4F90-ABD1-0EA36D3ACFF1_zpsbi2k7qtk.jpg.html)
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/31FB72F0-1621-42D5-90B1-58182820DA23_zpspwsrh0h1.jpg (http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/Bret_Hartman/media/31FB72F0-1621-42D5-90B1-58182820DA23_zpspwsrh0h1.jpg.html)

[Hart24601]

Did you attach that background with silicone? I think I will also get white starboard for the bottom inside the bottom eurobrace.

[Discus-n00b]

Excellent looking wood. I'd recommend Universal Rocks, I use one of their backgrounds as well. It's not the super thin flat stuff like Pat and Ricardo but it's the same material and very flexible. Fairly easy to cut too if you need to.

If I remember correctly all Universal Rocks backgrounds come with plastic clips that can be used to attach the backgrounds to the tank however with a rimless tank I never found them to be much use. I actually clipped mine on with small black clamps from Lowes but you might find it just as easy and nicer looking to go ahead and silicone. Since my background was a bit thicker and seems to have more pockets behind it I wanted the option to remove it easy if I ever needed to clean it or behind it.

[Hart24601]

I sure appreciate all the help. Lots of info on here too. So I picked up that universal rock background, a set of their river stones, that driftwood and a white starboard bottom. I am eyeing one more driftwood item, I would like to have one come up out of the tank.

I am also leaning towards Hans leopard snakeskins, maybe 10 4" guys. But that is quite awhile off. Thinking 100 or so cardinals would also be nice in there. While it has been a long time for discus, I have had large schools of cardinals before and they seem to not have all that much impact on a system relatively speaking.

Still thinking of the amazon sun kessil LEDs, 2 of the A160WE, perhaps a bit silly as I don't plan on plants, but they have such strong shimmer that I think would look nice in there.

[Hart24601]

The other driftwood, shipping almost doubled the price, but I really like the height and shape. It will come out of the tank about 10", but with a rimless and hanging lights I wanted something to come up and out of the top.

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/76F67C59-EC0D-446C-9124-9E38CA0D6159_zps8alv7tcj.jpg

[rickztahone]

I sure appreciate all the help. Lots of info on here too. So I picked up that universal rock background, a set of their river stones, that driftwood and a white starboard bottom. I am eyeing one more driftwood item, I would like to have one come up out of the tank.

I am also leaning towards Hans leopard snakeskins, maybe 10 4" guys. But that is quite awhile off. Thinking 100 or so cardinals would also be nice in there. While it has been a long time for discus, I have had large schools of cardinals before and they seem to not have all that much impact on a system relatively speaking.

Still thinking of the amazon sun kessil LEDs, 2 of the A160WE, perhaps a bit silly as I don't plan on plants, but they have such strong shimmer that I think would look nice in there.

Keep in mind that if you have a fixture made for plant growing, without plants, you more than likely will get a whole bunch of algae instead. Just something to keep in mind.

[Hart24601]

That's a good point. I have the mounting fixture from the ceiling still and have been struggling on what to use. Those models are dimmable at least and they will be mounted quite high - shame to run them so low, but I hope they have good color rendition for the fish and should make a cool shimmer. Not really sure of other easy options. I would like to keep a spot type led so I can put them high above the tank to show off the driftwood coming out. Are bushy nose and shrimp the best bet for some algae with discus?

Eventually I will be running a algae scrubber to help contain the display growth and I can run gfo I have from the reef too if needed. Will that work?

[rickztahone]

That's a good point. I have the mounting fixture from the ceiling still and have been struggling on what to use. Those models are dimmable at least and they will be mounted quite high - shame to run them so low, but I hope they have good color rendition for the fish and should make a cool shimmer. Not really sure of other easy options. I would like to keep a spot type led so I can put them high above the tank to show off the driftwood coming out. Are bushy nose and shrimp the best bet for some algae with discus?

Eventually I will be running a algae scrubber to help contain the display growth and I can run gfo I have from the reef too if needed. Will that work?

ABNP's are great with discus, so long as they do not get the taste for the discus body slime. The shrimp I'd skip. They always tend to become a discus snack food. The only shrimp I successfully kept with discus were ghost shrimp.

As far as an algae scrubber? I have never had one to be quite honest, but I can see the benefits of such a contraption.

[Hart24601]

One big reason I keep coming back to a scrubber is our agriculture "enhanced" water in Iowa. Tap varies around 10ppm nitrate depending on time of year with high phosphates too so you can't get below those levels without some sort of export like RO/DI as just RO leaves around 70% or more of the nitrates and I can't imagine how fast DI would get used up making 30g plus a day!

[rickztahone]

One big reason I keep coming back to a scrubber is our agriculture "enhanced" water in Iowa. Tap varies around 10ppm nitrate depending on time of year with high phosphates too so you can't get below those levels without some sort of export like RO/DI as just RO leaves around 70% or more of the nitrates and I can't imagine how fast DI would get used up making 30g plus a day!

There are people filling up their 100+ gallon storage containers daily to do water changes from an RO unit :). 10ppm of Nitrate shouldn't be too bad if you change water daily.

[Hart24601]

I have a nice 99+% rejection RO membrane still, I just feel kinda bad wasting all that water if I don't have to, I think it's a 3:1 waste ratio currently. I bet the RO would last a while, the DI wouldn't here at least! Can you keep them with just RO water? I am only used to using RO/DI for the reef.

I am still selling my reef gear and have been on the fence about keeping the RO/DI.

[Hart24601]

I also have a lot of golden pearl food 1-50um for feeding inverts. That too small for any good with discus, even babies?


After searching more sounds like 200-300um is about the smallest I would need. Will sell the other food.

[Hart24601]

Sounds like some bristlenose will be in my future too.

How much difference is there between keeping 3" and 4" fish? I noticed the price seems to almost double for 4" guys. Why is that? Are they that much easier to keep at that size and it's worth the cost? I don't have a problem buying 4" fish if they will do better for me and pay the premium.

[rickztahone]

I have a nice 99+% rejection RO membrane still, I just feel kinda bad wasting all that water if I don't have to, I think it's a 3:1 waste ratio currently. I bet the RO would last a while, the DI wouldn't here at least! Can you keep them with just RO water? I am only used to using RO/DI for the reef.

I am still selling my reef gear and have been on the fence about keeping the RO/DI.
RO is only needed if you plan on breeding and/or if you have really high nitrates from tap, I would say excess of 20+ppm


I also have a lot of golden pearl food 1-50um for feeding inverts. That too small for any good with discus, even babies?


After searching more sounds like 200-300um is about the smallest I would need. Will sell the other food.
Golden pearl's is what many here feed fry I believe but I'd double check that. I have not used that personally.


Sounds like some bristlenose will be in my future too.

How much difference is there between keeping 3" and 4" fish? I noticed the price seems to almost double for 4" guys. Why is that? Are they that much easier to keep at that size and it's worth the cost? I don't have a problem buying 4" fish if they will do better for me and pay the premium.
A 4" discus has been fed a lot, has gone through a lot of water changes and is much easier to bring to a respectable size as an adult than a 3" one. You basically pay the labor and time it took to get that discus to that size

[Hart24601]

Thanks for all the help! I promise that I have been searching for forums and internet too although it might not seem like it. Is it ok to keep adding to this thread as a build thread or should I start something new for that? I didn't see a section for just members tanks, just the paid subsection.

[Hart24601]

Since I will be using my automatic water changing system from the reef I have been looking at different thoughts on the site about them and drip systems. The system I will use isn't like a drip exactly, but close, I will add a drain line in the sump and use peristaltic pumps to add water from a brute can that has 1ml prime per 10g water changed (total per day) dosed automatically every hour. I can add the simple drain because happily don't have to get the specific gravity the same and won't need the automatic top off unit! I will install a float in the sump above the drain to shut off the pumps if the drain gets clogged via the apex.

I know it won't get the physical detritus up, and I plan on manual siphoning too, but I have read some people talk about how less effective it is. I will link the specific article, but if you crunch the numbers it's not that much less efficient.

If you change out 30% of the water all at once clearly that is a 30% reduction (well not exactly since tap water isn't perfect, but you get the idea). With a continuous change you reduce 26%. So you lose 4%, but that isn't as much as many people think.

The graph is hard to see, but if you did 2 50% waterchanges to equal 100% you would be left with 25% remaining impurities (ignore tap water). With a continuous system you end up with 36% or so impurities remaining.

So for discus let's say you change 100% of the water but 50% in the morning and 50% in the evening. The total impurities remaining are 25% or it's been reduced by 75%. If you use a drip and change 100g slowly over the day you have 36% remaining or have reduced it by 64%. So you lose 11% efficacy in this situation but that is from 100% change done in 2 50% batches. Do that in 4 25% amounts and the continuous system looks better!

Plus as randy is a big fan of the slower change tends to not upset livestock as much and you don't h e to heat the water supply.


http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/

[Debow]

RO is only needed if you plan on breeding and/or if you have really high nitrates from tap, I would say excess of 20+ppm


Golden pearl's is what many here feed fry I believe but I'd double check that. I have not used that personally.


A 4" discus has been fed a lot, has gone through a lot of water changes and is much easier to bring to a respectable size as an adult than a 3" one. You basically pay the labor and time it took to get that discus to that size

I cant agree more I will probably only buy 4-4.5'' discus for now on, Unless I try to grow out fry. Spend the extra money and you will have beautiful fish that will reach there full potential. I went into this community with young 2.5-3'' fish and the results were not so good I have learned a lot from Ricardo and have made many adjustments.

[Hart24601]

Sounds like it will be 4" for sure, thanks! I don't plan on breeding and just really want some great display animals, so the extra money will be worth it from what it sounds like.

[rickztahone]

Sounds like it will be 4" for sure, thanks! I don't plan on breeding and just really want some great display animals, so the extra money will be worth it from what it sounds like.
Agreed. Wrt the water change plan, many here will have an opinion on it about its lack of efficiency compared to large manual water changes. Since you are set on this system, keep us updated on how it goes. Hopefully you can show us that it can be done just as efficiently

[Hart24601]

I will turn this into a build thread when the time comes and keep updates, although getting the discus is a while off. I don't know why so many people here don't like the efficiency of continuous changes - I don't know if they ever did the math correctly though. Of course they are not as good if you are not siphoning detritus out or at least keeping it in suspension to be removed by filter socks daily, but Randy did a good job of showing mathematically they are pretty solid. If anyone doesn't know Randy, here are his qualifications:

"Randy Holmes-Farley has a BA in chemistry and biology from Cornell University (1982) and a PhD in chemistry from Harvard University (1986). He has 57 patents, numerous publications and several awards in a variety of chemical fields. In 1992 he helped start a pharmaceutical company (GelTex Pharmaceuticals). It was eventually bought by Genzyme where he now has the title of Vice President, Chemical Research. Randy is also the co-inventor of two commercial pharmaceuticals (Renagel and WelChol). "

He was/is my go to reference for chemistry matters, and has answered well over 100,000 posts. Plus he is not involved in the aquarium trade at all, so no vested interests. While his stuff covers saltwater, the math should be applicable for freshwater too for this issue.

The thing I really like about the AWC is that it won't miss a beat. I can always do more manually, but when sick or on vacation or even when tired from a hard week I can count on the system to change 60g a day (since I am changing it up a bit and having a drain overflow I can have each head add 30g). When the discus are adults I can still have it do that much, no bother!

From that article 1 60% waterchange is a 60% reduction in levels (1-(0.4)^1)=60%.
The apex runs 143 times a day. So that gives (1-(.9958)^143)=54%.
So the single 60% WC is 6% more efficient. However, say you were to break that 60% daily WC into 30% in the morning and 30% in the evening. Still 60% overall, but that drops the efficiency even closer to the AWC levels.

Figure that I already have the equipment, why not use it!

[Hart24601]

So I have been searching around, but it doesn't seem like there is a consensus on what the huge waterchanges are exporting aside from just general "nasties"? Just for curiosity sake. Sounds like the idea of hormones is no longer followed. Have there been any recent conclusions that I missed like dissolved organics or anything that is specific to discus, or are all raised fish susceptible to something in aquariums but discus breeders are more aware of it. Generally I thought research said nitrates, at least by themselves, are not very toxic to aquatic life - in reefs for years people thought they were terrible, but with recent advances now some, including myself when it was running, dose nitrate! Is nitrate just used in this hobby to gauge other potential waste?

FWIW nitrate out of the tap is set at 10ppm by the EPA - sounds like that is ok though for discus. It's a big issue here in Iowa, we have one of the largest water denitrifying plants in the world in Des Moines, but it's very expensive to run and the city is trying to push farmers harder by considering lawuits - messy stuff.

[Hart24601]

After fishless cycle, best to get discus and keep in main display and QT wild cardinals or get the cardinals and QT/worm in the display and add/QT the discus? Seems like the discus would be better to get 1st as I don't have a very large QT tank. Thinking I can use a brute tub I have to QT and condition the cardinals later since you always lose a few when getting wilds, or at least I do.

[strawberryblonde]

Hi there,

I've been following this thread from the beginning, but didn't feel there was much I could add to be helpful. I have to admit that there were a couple of things that were niggling at me, but since no one else was bringing them up, I chose to just let it slide....cuz I'm non-confrontational that way. LOL

So that brings us to this afternoon. I noticed that you're now planning on doing a continuous daily WC of 60g, which is SO much better than the 30g that you mentioned in your first post - whew!

And although it's a 120 gallon rimless, I'm assuming that you're not planning to fill it to the top, hence why you mentioned that 60 gallons will equal a 60% WC daily.

So here are the 2 things that were niggling at me and that I feel like I need to mention, ready? =)

1) The rimless tank - if you search this forum you'll find many posts by people who have lost discus to jumping. These guys are normally fairly placid and calm, but when frightened, they tend to slam into the sides of the tank (or driftwood) and jump... sometimes jumping to heights you just would not believe unless you saw it! I had one knock the lid off of my tank and fly 4 feet across the room before he thudded onto the floor.

So unless you're willing to lose a very expensive fish to a sudden scary shadow, or a silly response to the nervousness of another discus in the tank, or a bite, a scratch, a nudge, etc, you will want to find a way to cover that tank. Nearly anything can send them skittering across the tank to smash into a tank wall or to rocket out of the top of the tank.

2) You asked why discus folks don't seem to be behind the idea of automatic water changes (continuous ones). Part of it is simply that they don't allow for removal of detritus and the other part is that they often don't remove enough water daily to satisfy the needs of discus for super clean water.

Nitrate build up is one of the problems for discus. Nitrates aren't nearly as harmful as Ammonia and Nitrites and they won't cause an immediate problem - it's the long term exposure to nitrates that the issue. I was fascinated to read some of the articles in aquatic journals that documented the addition of extremely high levels of nitrates into freshwater fish colonies. They reported that there were no ill effects. None. Well, except that the tests they ran only lasted anywheres from 24 hours to 2 weeks! So they proved that a catfish can handle a high dose of nitrates for 2 weeks, but then again, most fish can. It's what happens when even low doses are present in the water column over a period of months and years that's the real concern.

Discus and a few other species (not surprisingly, most originate in South America!) are more sensitive to nitrates than the rest of the tropical fish community. So picture what 20ppm will do to them over the long haul. I've already seen it in my tanks. When levels go over 10ppm my fish start to act a bit off. If it's allowed to continue for a week, they darken, refuse to eat, etc. And once I reduce the level of nitrates to less than 5ppm, they return to normal within a day or two, though I'm smart enough to know that I haven't "cured" them and that they'll need those nitrates to remain at less than 5ppm for a good long while in order to allow their immune systems to recover.

So that's the nitrate problem and why you see so many people on this forum talking about the importance of doing large water changes daily - especially for juvenile and sub-adult discus (subs are anything less than 18 months old).

A build up of bacteria, molds, fungus and parasites is the other big problem for discus. If you're only removing 60% of the water daily, you are essentially only removing 60% of those nasties. The ones who remain in the tank just continue multiplying and the next day you only remove 60% of those! You can't ever get all of them (well, could if you removed the discus and did a total sterilization of the tank daily, but that's not exactly realistic..lol).

The best you can hope for is to keep the populations of bacteria, mold, fungus and parasites to a low enough level that the immune systems of your discus can handle them. And discus have GREAT immune systems! But nitrates and time, injury, and stress will suppress the immune systems. They aren't static and the health of your discus will fluctuate up and down with many factors affecting them.

So the best defense is to keep their water as pristine as possible.

I don't know if doing a 60g continuous WC daily will be enough to allow your discus to grow out to their full potential and also keep them healthy in the long term. It might! I can only tell you from personal experience that my growing discus in my 120g tank react badly to anything less than 80% daily, so I've committed myself to doing a 90% daily WC and it works. Yep, every once in awhile I skip 1 day - but compensate for that by doing a super clean every single Sunday afternoon. And I watch them carefully. If they aren't quite as perky, active or hungry, I don't skip a day for weeks at a time. Currently I haven't skipped a day since I got my latest batch of little guys. And that was 6 weeks ago.

Oh and please, if you do try the automatic WC method, please please commit to daily siphoning of the tank and to cleaning whatever pre-filter material you'll be using in your sump.

[Hart24601]

Thanks for the reply! I sounds like plans will have to change a bit. The tap is right at 10ppm nitrate, it it's unlikely I will ever be able to get down even to that level and you have had fish problems at those levels so that is an issue. We have a septic tank so I really don't want to put the added ro waste pressure on it unless I can find a way to drain RO waste in the yard in winter.

Your correct that the water doesn't go to the top, miracles designed the tank so there is 2" before the water starts. With the sump I could tell the volume was 110g by the change In levels when adding chemicals. With big driftwood it will be less which is how I estimated total volume. I didnt have any jumpers with the reef keeping anthias and such, but sounds like it's a deal breaker with discus.

It was a gift from the GF, and was about 3 grand so I don't want to cover it, she wouldn't like the looks. Sounds like discus are not in my future - bummer, it's been 20 years since I had one but it's not meant to be. Thanks everyone for the advise! I sure appreciate the help. Maybe a school of 500 cardinals would be sweet, hahaha.

[Hart24601]

Just to add a bit, sadly the tap nitrate and RO wastewater coupled with no screen top are a deal breaker for discus (which is why I joined, not to hear advise and not take it!), I did want to clarify the awc system for anyone that might stumble across the thread.

I didn't intend for awc to completely replace any manual changes - just a bonus amount to ease it a bit. I enjoy playing with the tank everyday. Plus it's nice with the drain overflow as the sump can lose about 10g without the pump being dry, so one could siphon 10g of crud out at one time and the awc would just add the water back in since it's not removing any (the drain is when overflows). You could do that 6x a day with this system if you really wanted siphoning out plenty but saving the filling.

Plus the mp40 does a pretty good job of keeping detritus in suspension without creating too much high velocity flow, it distributes water movement over a large area and you can ramp it up and down. Filter socks are easy to replace every day or every other day - already did that on the reef. Can toss them into a bucket and wash them once a week, super easy.

I will still keep the setup, I'm sure whatever fish I go with will appreciate waterchanges, just not as much! I have kept lots of fw fish over the years and there are not many I go crazy for, but a gigantic school of cardinals might be fun.

[Hart24601]

I was going to have the apex auto dose prime every hour into holding water, but I have an RO/DI system. I don't want to use that because of the waste, but I just found people use "hma" filters to remove chlorine and heavy metals. They are just the 1st two filters before the RO membrane so I can split the line right there. Already have auto shutoff and floats on the storage - can just move the split from the output to before the membrane and can fill the storage with chlorine removed water and not have to dose prime.

Won't remove nitrates, even the RO without the DI won't do much for nitrates, so doesn't change that limitation, but will be nice for whatever I figure out to keep. And I can sell the 1.1ml/min doser!

[Mgus]

You could try a purigen reactor or an ozone reactor. I don't have personal experience with them but have read a few threads on here and it seems they work well. I have 20ppm nitrates out of the tap and I set up a refugium. It's been keeping my nitrates around 20 and my fish have been doing well. They are brightly colored and growing well. I think the reactors are more affective they might be worth looking into for you.

[Hart24601]

That's interesting. I have both purigen and an ozone machine that I used in the reef. I didn't think people ran ozone in freshwater. I will have to look into that.

[Mgus]

There's a good thread on here. I think the user was chad Hughes he did a grow out thread with 6 fish in a 110 planted. He had a sump with ozone reactor and had great results doing one water change a week.

[Hart24601]

I debating the appropriateness of discus after Toni's (I think) well thought out comments considering the tap water nitrates and the rimless setup, but I have still been doing lots of research into it. Here is where I am at:

White starboard bottom. Bare bottom. Universal rocks background and rocks
Driftwood previously shown. Soaking in RO/DI water with sodium percarbonate (Strong hydrogen peroxide) currently.
Sump with 500gph return (2 filter socks)
Finnex titanium 500W heater with controller - and apex backup controller
1L Siporax, 1L subsrat pro in sump
500ml Purigen, Rox 0.8 carbon
1.6ml/min dosing pump for prime into brute can, dose 6ml/day split over 24hr
Auto fill for brute cans using either RO/DI or just 1st 2 filters (HMA filter)
Apex DOS 60gallon/day WC system
Drain in sump for water disposal, with high water float valve to turn off DOS pump via APEX
Ozone reactor (only low dose)
2 kessil A160 amazon sun lights controlled by APEX
Vortech MP40qd display powerhead

I think that is about it. I have read several accounts of discus jumping and also of people keeping them in rimless tanks without issue. It may not sound like it, but the 2" from the waterline to the rim have made a big difference with other fish I have had in there. Not saying some fish can't jump a foot straight up and out of the tank 6ft away or still jump out if really going crazy, but the 2" does make a big difference.

Still not sure if the setup is appropriate for discus though. Any one else have thoughts? Not trying to breed, just have a nice looking display.

[Hart24601]

After doing more research I am going to try my hand at keeping discus again in this system. I am leaning in the direction of discus only, no cardinals, with a few BN plecos. The system has been cycling and the ceramic media was in another system for a couple of weeks so it's good and seeded. I decided on 12 4" discus from Hans, 6 checkerboard and 6 leopard snakeskins with the above equipment and waterchanges (at minimum).

[Mgus]

Nice! Good to hear you're gonna give them a go.

[rickztahone]

After doing more research I am going to try my hand at keeping discus again in this system. I am leaning in the direction of discus only, no cardinals, with a few BN plecos. The system has been cycling and the ceramic media was in another system for a couple of weeks so it's good and seeded. I decided on 12 4" discus from Hans, 6 checkerboard and 6 leopard snakeskins with the above equipment and waterchanges (at minimum).

great sponsor to work with. Go barebottom and do your suggested 60% WC's and you will have some huge discus in no time. Make sure to watch the pleco's just in case they get a taste for the discus body slime.

[MendoMan]

I went from a reef to Discus several years, mainly to avoid water waste and to be able to use my change water in the garden. I also got rid of my sump and over flows and went with two canisters in a 140 gal tank. So much easier to maintain and cheaper to operate. The only piece of reef equipment I still use is the controller for the heaters. Know need for RO as I don't want to breed fish and no plants so my high intensity T5 lamp got changed for a LED. Now I enjoy messing with the fish, feeding and water changes, instead of messing with equipment.

[Hart24601]

I'm surprised you like the canisters better than the sump. I had canisters years ago and while they were great then, it was still a pain to clean them often enough or just forget. I like that I can change the filter socks every day and it takes only about 30 seconds. I started a build thread in the new section, will be fun to update. It's refreshing to not have so much equipment to worry about now! Auto top off, RO/DI with the remote ato pump, carbon reactor, gfo reactor, skimmer, biopellets, auto pump for dosing vinegar, auto pump for dosing kalk, 3 head dosing computer for calcium/alk/amino acids, gyre power head, another power head, 5 AI lights (replaced with 2 kessil), daily alk testing, testing ca, nitrate, mg, phosphorus, strontium, iodine, making ca/alk and kalk solution - and more. All gone!! Whew.


I went from a reef to Discus several years, mainly to avoid water waste and to be able to use my change water in the garden. I also got rid of my sump and over flows and went with two canisters in a 140 gal tank. So much easier to maintain and cheaper to operate. The only piece of reef equipment I still use is the controller for the heaters. Know need for RO as I don't want to breed fish and no plants so my high intensity T5 lamp got changed for a LED. Now I enjoy messing with the fish, feeding and water changes, instead of messing with equipment.

[Kyla]

originally my discus were in an open-top 80g before i moved them to my covered 180g where they reside now. they were very skittish for the first few months... so much so that i literally could not move in the room without them hiding. if i fidgeted or tried to take out my camera for a pic they would slam into the sides and splash at the surface in a panic. none jumped out but i was so concerned i decided to put some eggcrate over the 80g tank as a precaution despite how much i hated the look.

their shyness subsided a bit over time but never really went away until maybe 6 months into having them in the 80g i tried this:

i started tapping on the rim of the tank with my ring during feedings. they freaked at first but within a week they were starting to associate feedings with noise and the tapping was drawing them out with curiosity. for the first time ever i could stand in front of the tank and have them approach me. around month 7 i moved them to the 180g and continued to increase the shuffling and knocking around during feedings until there was no longer any fear of movement or noise.

today i can rap my knuckle on the tank and they rush me for food. no shyness or fear anymore, no dashing or splashing at the top in a panic. the tank is currently covered but at this point i would feel much much safer having them in an uncovered tank.

so if your guys are shy at first and are dashing/splashing and you are concerned, try positive reinforcement with sound and movement by associating it with food. i know now i was far too gentle with my discus originally. tip-toeing around the tank was having the opposite effect i wanted - it making them skittish and nervous.

ive got some new discus in QT (27 days today - the wait is killin me!) and when i enter the room or stand up from the couch they rush to the top waiting for food, their little heads poking out of the water in anticipation when i make noise opening the lid or touching the tank. when i bang around under the tank in the cabinet they are at the front of the glass looking down at me. the difference is night and day.

just a heads up so u dont make the mistake i did. and if ur guys r skittish at first you can cover the tank temporarily while u work with their behaviour to reduce the likelihood they'll jump, and then remove the cover when you are confident they are comfortable with movement and noise.

good luck, cant wait to see pics!

[Hart24601]

originally my discus were in an open-top 80g before i moved them to my covered 180g where they reside now. they were very skittish for the first few months... so much so that i literally could not move in the room without them hiding. if i fidgeted or tried to take out my camera for a pic they would slam into the sides and splash at the surface in a panic. none jumped out but i was so concerned i decided to put some eggcrate over the 80g tank as a precaution despite how much i hated the look.

their shyness subsided a bit over time but never really went away until maybe 6 months into having them in the 80g i tried this:

i started tapping on the rim of the tank with my ring during feedings. they freaked at first but within a week they were starting to associate feedings with noise and the tapping was drawing them out with curiosity. for the first time ever i could stand in front of the tank and have them approach me. around month 7 i moved them to the 180g and continued to increase the shuffling and knocking around during feedings until there was no longer any fear of movement or noise.

today i can rap my knuckle on the tank and they rush me for food. no shyness or fear anymore, no dashing or splashing at the top in a panic. the tank is currently covered but at this point i would feel much much safer having them in an uncovered tank.

so if your guys are shy at first and are dashing/splashing and you are concerned, try positive reinforcement with sound and movement by associating it with food. i know now i was far too gentle with my discus originally. tip-toeing around the tank was having the opposite effect i wanted - it making them skittish and nervous.

ive got some new discus in QT (27 days today - the wait is killin me!) and when i enter the room or stand up from the couch they rush to the top waiting for food, their little heads poking out of the water in anticipation when i make noise opening the lid or touching the tank. when i bang around under the tank in the cabinet they are at the front of the glass looking down at me. the difference is night and day.

just a heads up so u dont make the mistake i did. and if ur guys r skittish at first you can cover the tank temporarily while u work with their behaviour to reduce the likelihood they'll jump, and then remove the cover when you are confident they are comfortable with movement and noise.

good luck, cant wait to see pics!

Wow, that is fantastic advise, thank you so much! I will be doing this without a doubt. I would not have thought to make noise at feeding time, but it makes a lot of sense.

[Kyla]

that's great! there will of course always be a risk of jumping in an open-top tank, but hopefully this helps a bit :)