Miracles custom 120 rimless reef to discus

[Hart24601]

Now that I have done quite a bit of research and settled on some discus I might as well start a build thread! Ok, perhaps a rebuild thread...


I had quite a bit of success in keeping a reef (at least from my personal opinion), but the hobby became more anxiety prone for me once I had a few medical issues come up and had to balance everything. I decided to get out while everything was still looking good and make a switch to freshwater. It was fun while it lasted though, I won an acropora grow out contest and had the tank featured. I am not saying FW isn't work, but there isn't the anxiety for me like there is with full blown reef and everything that comes with it.

I kept discus in my early teenage years in the mid 90s. I doubt by SD's standards they were very nice, but I loved them and saw this as a great chance to get back in using some of the reef equipment that I decided to keep for this purpose. I was on the fence about it, but after asking around and doing some research I decided to give discus a try again. It seems that husbandry has changed a bit from the 90s, or at least the information I had then.

I have these in my other thread, but here are some tank pics of the reef:



http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/3r_zpsevllzq8e.jpg
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/1r_zps54zyhpcs.jpg
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/4r%201_zpsyvmqampz.jpg
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/2r_zpsxlyemhee.jpg
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/4r%202_zpsa8yygdkk.jpg

[timvriens]

wow that's colorful :o

[Hart24601]

The tank itself is a Miracles custom rimless, 3/4" starfire glass. It's a beast. Here is a shot of the back with external overflow and my sump plumbing, the flash makes it look not so pretty:

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/of3_zps9b2c94a3.jpg
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/imageof_zps7a46347b.jpg
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/of2_zps516919fc.jpg

[Hart24601]

Here is the equipment I will be running for the discus:

White starboard bottom. Bare bottom. Universal rocks background and rocks
Driftwood.
Sump with 500gph return (2 filter socks)
Finnex titanium 500W heater with controller - and apex backup controller
1L Siporax, 1L subsrat pro in sump
500ml Purigen, Rox 0.8 carbon
1.6ml/min dosing pump for prime into brute can, dose 6ml/day split over 24hr
Auto fill for brute cans using either RO/DI or just 1st 2 filters (HMA filter)
Apex DOS 60gallon/day WC system
Drain in sump for water disposal, with high water float valve to turn off DOS pump via APEX
Ozone reactor (only low dose)
2 kessil A160 amazon sun lights controlled by APEX
Vortech MP40qd display powerhead

I talked with Hans and will be getting 6 checkerboard and 6 leopard snakeskins. 4". The tank is cycled now, but the driftwood I bought still needs to soak as it won't sink. I picked two I really like, but I fear they will be too big to put them both in. Dang. The Osage Orange is 28x20x20:

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/C537B0E5-3544-4F90-ABD1-0EA36D3ACFF1_zpsbi2k7qtk.jpg
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/31FB72F0-1621-42D5-90B1-58182820DA23_zpspwsrh0h1.jpg

And this guy:
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/76F67C59-EC0D-446C-9124-9E38CA0D6159_zps8alv7tcj.jpg

Just holding them up to the tank they both seem too large for my taste, although 1 or the other will work well. I will have to try it when they sink. I cured them by soaking in RO/DI water and adding sodium percarbonate (strong hydrogen peroxide). You should see that water after soaking in that solution. Pure RO/DI only discolored a bit, but the percarbonate solution really pulled a lot of "stuff" out.

[Hart24601]

wow that's colorful :o

Thanks! No photoshop, just white balance on the camera. It was sad to see it go, but who needs a reef when you can have discus!

[timvriens]

so true, discus rule :D

[Hart24601]

For a slate bottom on the driftwood just go to homedepot and get some tile? Drill and screw with stainless hardware?

[brewmaster15]

Thanks! No photoshop, just white balance on the camera. It was sad to see it go, but who needs a reef when you can have discus!

Sounds like you will fit in fine with the rest of the Discus Nuts here! I started with salt water years and years ago, then caught the discus bug.:)

look forward to the rebuild!
al

ps..it was very cool marine tank!

[timvriens]

maybe you can put a rock on it ?

[DiscusOnly]

Just curious. Are you planning to put a top on the tank? Discus do jump.

[Hart24601]

I will not be putting a top on it. I have read up quite a bit and know there are many here that have had jumpers, but also some that have not. Many of those that had jumpers they had water right up to the rim. It may not sound like a lot, but the waterline is 2" below the top of the tank and it really does make a difference with jumpers. Not that a fish can't do it if motivated, but having fast species in the reef like anthias it wasn't a problem and even with butterfly fish, mine liked to dart up for food and normally could come up about 1" out of the water and would splash water out, but was a long way from clearing the top. It's a risk, but one I am willing to take. I will have moon LEDs to help with the transition to main lighting as well.

The tank was a gift from my amazing fiancee, and she isn't sold on the FW thing yet - she would never forgive me if I put a top on. "I didn't spend 3 grand on a fish tank to have a ugly top!!!", straight from her mouth!

[DiscusOnly]

Ok.. as long as you are aware that not having a top is risky. Discus tend to jump not because they want to. It's a reaction when they are spook for various reasons.

[brewmaster15]

she isn't sold on the FW thing yet have you shown her the colors Discus come in?:) Tell her she can pick her favorites!

RE : Jumpers... without a lid I would suggest having a night light on near the tank and have the regular lights on a timer so that the lights come on 30 mins before you wake up and go off 30 minutes after you normally go to sleep. less chance of getting hit in the head with a leaping flat fish!
hth,
al

[Hart24601]

have you shown her the colors Discus come in?:) Tell her she can pick her favorites!

RE : Jumpers... without a lid I would suggest having a night light on near the tank and have the regular lights on a timer so that the lights come on 30 mins before you wake up and go off 30 minutes after you normally go to sleep. less chance of getting hit in the head with a leaping flat fish!
hth,
al

Good advise, thanks! The APEX can control the lights to do that with no issue. Will the moonlights be ok for the night light? They are blue, but I have not tried them out yet. When I have used them before (not for discus) they seem to work well for waking the tank up. I can run them before and after lights out and have a total darkness period or just run them the entire night. Having moonlights on other tanks running all night I never noticed and issues with it.

[Hart24601]

Draining the reef and the soaking driftwood.



890818908289083

[rickztahone]

very nice. Great looking DW

[Hart24601]

Some fussing around tonight. Got the background cut and siliconed in. Although the DW wont sink wanted to move it around and try some options. Had to cut a couple the points off the big cluster and then when I was moving it the stump part broke off. I could epoxy or screw it, but I think it's better now as I can position it better and still looks like 1 piece, from a distance. Nice part of the sump, can drain the display and do work while keeping the filters alive.

8911089111

[jawfish]

Hey I get this... my 150 in the living room was a custom built for me as a reef tank... I turned into a discus tank 5 years ago and never look back.

This an impressive piece of equipment there. It will be perfect for discus..

Yes reefs have their attraction and biodiversity, but nothing beats the personality of discus. Welcome to thr club :-)

I'm looking forward to see more of this tank as things develop.

Cheers
Fred

[rickztahone]

I'm sorry but I may have missed it, are you running a Durso?

[Hart24601]

Thanks! It's always exciting to setup something new. I was worried how the background would look, but it looks really good I think. The starboard bottom is a bit too large, I don't have a table saw so it will be a challenge to fit tomorrow.

The drain system is a modified bean animal. Although now I drilled the sump with an open drain line, so the 3rd hole emergancy drain isn't really needed, but it doesn't hurt anything. I split the main siphon line right before the sump to use 2 socks I think there is a pic. Works great and silent. There is flex PVC so the drain is under the water despite being inside the socks.

[timvriens]

Really nice wood, but maybe you can turn the left piece around, so its with the branches down ?

[rickztahone]

Very nice. Love how quite that overflow is.

[Hart24601]

Really nice wood, but maybe you can turn the left piece around, so its with the branches down ?

That piece has the base cut flat to sit nice, it's hard to capture in that photo, but I really wanted some DW that would raise up and branch out of the water and even come outside of the footprint of the tank to highlight the rimless aspect. I think turning it over would look nice when just looking inside the tank, but idk how it would look when viewing the tank overall with the base above the rim. The base might also obstruct the top down view, but I will try it out, and thanks for the comment! As I said it's hard to capture in the photo, always disappointing when pics looks worse....

[GivensOU]

[QUOTE=brewmaster15;1168897]have you shown her the colors Discus come in?:) Tell her she can pick her favorites!

This is very good advise! It has help me get more tanks and discus!

[Hart24601]

I did show her pictures of adult fish... she said that she wasn't into fish all that much, more coral. How sad is that? I figure discus will change her mind though!

[fishtanktenderfoot]

You have a beautiful set up, and it should produce very happy fish! Good luck with it all... And by the way, when I decided on a discus tank, my hubby was not very interested, either. He figured on a pretty generic "fish" tank. But once the fish start watching us through the glass, and wagging their fins when they saw food in our hands, and eating out of your hands, he was converted! I bet the same happens for you.

[Hart24601]

You have a beautiful set up, and it should produce very happy fish! Good luck with it all... And by the way, when I decided on a discus tank, my hubby was not very interested, either. He figured on a pretty generic "fish" tank. But once the fish start watching us through the glass, and wagging their fins when they saw food in our hands, and eating out of your hands, he was converted! I bet the same happens for you.

Thank you! I bet you are correct, she recently saw some dwarf puffers and just loves them, so I got her a 10g tank just for the puffers! Once the discus become family members and develop some "personality" she will hopefully love them too.

[Hart24601]

So I drilled the sump and added a 1/2" drain line, but it's pretty small. I am going to re-drill it and go with 3/4" bulkhead and line to the drain. The AWC system only adds ~2.4 gallons per hour, but the extra size will make me feel better. I can't go with 1" because that is a bit too large of hole in the wall before I get in trouble. Even 3/4" is pushing that, but I think I can get away with it!

Have the high water float installed in the sump. Will test with APEX tonight to turn of the DOS pump as an emergency backup.

[Hart24601]

Whew. Got the starboard trimmed last night, that was a process... The GF did a lot of it, she is better at that sort of thing and getting it to fit! Nice she is helping out, will make her feel more invested in the tank. Silicone on back ground cured so filled the DT back up. Also got some moonlights installed. Have continued to add ammonia to the sump to keep feeding the bacteria on the ceramic media. The tall DW doesn't quite sink yet enough to fully stand, but will if propped up. The moonlights are nice, they are not all that bright although they appear so in the photo! Hopefully enough to keep the discus from getting spooked. Bliss (my GF) admitted it was looking pretty nice. And she doubted my vision! haha

8913289133

[jmf3460]

very nice set up OP, I think this reef ready tank will serve you well for your discus. I actually think the tank looks great with just the one piece of wood you have in there now.

[Hart24601]

very nice set up OP, I think this reef ready tank will serve you well for your discus. I actually think the tank looks great with just the one piece of wood you have in there now.

Thanks! I like just the 1 DW too... I am torn because the other DW was so expensive! I hate to not use it for anything and I don't have any other tanks it would fit in. I also have the riverstone pack from universal rocks, but not sure if I will use them. I need some real rocks to hold the starboard down. I don't want to get it cluttered.

[jmf3460]

Thanks! I like just the 1 DW too... I am torn because the other DW was so expensive! I hate to not use it for anything and I don't have any other tanks it would fit in. I also have the riverstone pack from universal rocks, but not sure if I will use them. I need some real rocks to hold the starboard down. I don't want to get it cluttered.

I didn't want to offend you OP but I think the two types of wood together looks kind of un-natural and weird. Please don't be offended its just my opinion. To me it looks like you are going for a natural biotope ish looking tank, the wood that you have not put in yet, is not the type one would find in the amazon. The manzanita piece you got from rich would definitely be in the amazon which is why I like it better. I personally think you should turn your manzanita piece sideways and just use it. Maybe get some more pieces from Rich and scatter them in there and leave out the other piece all together. save it for a rainy day, you may need it in the future.

[Hart24601]

Don't worry, I am not offended! I appreciate the input.

I will have to think about it some more. I don't like that piece on it's side though, I want more vertical orientation over horizontal, but I will give some more thought to another manzanita. I see a lot of horizontal layouts and really want to try something a bit different. I am not sure how different the types of driftwood would look overtime though.

Not really trying for any biotope or anything, just whatever appeals to my eye. To me since the discus I am getting have been captive bred for decades and natural biotope for them would be nothing in the tank and a sponge filter in the corner! I figure any river (especially the amazon) has a ton of different types of trees and all sorts of wood will be found together. Osage orange may not be found there, but I am sure there is some sort of tree in the amazon whose weathered heartwood looks pretty darn similar, many of the gnarly ultra-hardwoods look similar - I think cebil is found in that area and is quite similar. Although my rock wall background isn't very amazon either, haha.

[Hart24601]

If anyone else has any thoughts about the DW I would like to hear it, the above was just my thoughts initially. Keep in mind the iphone pic without water isn't exactly true to life either.

[Hart24601]

My thought might have gone out the window. It does look pretty nice on the side, but it would have to be anchored to something. Just slate tile from Home Depot with a SS screw?


89137

[jmf3460]

YES!!!!! I like it like this the best, this looks really cool. do it this way!!!

[Hart24601]

I like it, this looks like it will be it, although the rock will probably change. But after time the DW will sink forward, I want to keep it up. How?

[jmf3460]

suction cup it to the corners!!! like what this guy did here http://www.petturtlesandmore.com/wp-content/gallery/diy-platforms-attached/diy-under-water-turtle-basking-platform-23.jpg you can even get the suction cups that can screw into things off ebay, just use stainless steel screws if you go that route. You may can fashion zip ties to hold the suction cups on

[Kirbs]

I think you got it right! Looks good to me. Adding some different size rocks will finish it off!

[Hart24601]

Ok. Might be final here. Got bottom (now) trimmed sorta flat - enough - drilled slate and put a SS screw in. It's not tight, but will keep the wood from falling forward. I went with a grey tile, was hard to try and match the lighter colors, and then I can keep the big other rock in since now they go together. Thoughts? Put some of the fake rock in there too. Sideways allowed to drop the lights a bit for less spill. Excuse the cloudy water, was a lot of trimming and putting the wood back in. Also got the 3/4" drain installed instead of the 1/2".

89151

[jmf3460]

looks great!!!

[Magoo40]

[QUOTE=Hart24601;1169320]Ok. Might be final here. Got bottom (now) trimmed sorta flat - enough - drilled slate and put a SS screw in. It's not tight, but will keep the wood from falling forward. I went with a grey tile, was hard to try and match the lighter colors, and then I can keep the big other rock in since now they go together. Thoughts? Put some of the fake rock in there too. Sideways allowed to drop the lights a bit for less spill. Excuse the cloudy water, was a lot of trimming and putting the wood back in. Also got the 3/4" drain installed instead of the 1/2".

If you wanted a cleaner look you could get rid of the slate and screw though the starboerd to hold the DW

[Hart24601]

Dang...

That's a good idea.

[Hart24601]

Woot. Got it attached to the starboard. Hope it holds up over time, but should it not I guess can always come up with something else or go back to slate.


Amazing. Ph out of the tap is right around 9. After sitting overnight drops to 6.5. Guess there isn't much co2 in the tap water?

[Hart24601]

89181

[Serin]

The drain system is a modified bean animal. Although now I drilled the sump with an open drain line, so the 3rd hole emergancy drain isn't really needed, but it doesn't hurt anything.

Hi, Hart. I'm new to both discus and drilled tank/overflows, so I'm here trying to learn. I am slowly making my way through the beananimal overflow thread. Could you explain your statement above, please? Maybe with pictures?

[Hart24601]

Ok. So here is the overflow with the back acrylic cover removed. Left to right. Emergancy pipe, trickle pipe (has a small hole drilled on top to create siphon if water gets too high), and siphon pipe. 89184

The return section of the sump doesn't hold a lot of water, there is a divider between the main part of the sump and the return, so even if you blocked the siphon and trickle tubes water wouldn't flow over the top of the tank or even to the emergancy pipe because only the return section of the sump gets the water pumped out and the pump runs dry. Most of the water in the sump would remain because it has to flow over that 9" tall divider. So really it's not possible for the emergancy drain to be used in my case, many people need it though. 89185

I recently installed a bulkhead in the sump and a 3/4" line straight to the floor drain as well - something not normally done - so I can just add water and the extra goes right down the drain.

[rickztahone]

Looking nice. My one suggestion would be to reduce the amount of stones you add to the display. I believe in the less is more philosophy, although others may disagree. I think if you removed a few of them, the overall look would improve. Keep the stone that is covering the slate and maybe a couple others. These stones serve as a great place for detritus to accumulate as well as places for your discus to hide. Give them a place to hide, they typically will.

[Hart24601]

Thanks. I will still play around a bit with the number of stones. It does look better in person though, it's hard to get the depth impression with the picture, makes it look a bit more crowded than it really is, but I was thinking about taking some out. Still not 100% though.

Finally routed everything up through the apex. After the tear down was easier to bypass it and use strip outlets for a while. The apex has a energy meter, running on 530w with heater on total. It was over 1,200 with the reef, and that was even with ultra efficient AI LED lights!

[Hart24601]

I did out some rock. Funny what people get excited about. At the lfs and the gf noticed marimo balls. Figured it might look cool on the starboard rolling around with the vortech. Well she absolutely loves them. Looks like more moss balls are in my future! I like them too, so it's ok. Kinda neat seeing them roll around. Can take out and clean as needed.

[rickztahone]

I did out some rock. Funny what people get excited about. At the lfs and the gf noticed marimo balls. Figured it might look cool on the starboard rolling around with the vortech. Well she absolutely loves them. Looks like more moss balls are in my future! I like them too, so it's ok. Kinda neat seeing them roll around. Can take out and clean as needed.

having them tumble and being non-stationary will more than likely cause them to die. They aren't an overly resilient.

[Hart24601]

Really? I thought they were round in the wild because of all the water movement. When not rolling they get strange shapes and you have to make them round again by rolling with your hand? At least that is what I read about them.

[jmf3460]

having them tumble and being non-stationary will more than likely cause them to die. They aren't an overly resilient.

I have not had the same experience as rick with my marimo balls. I have probably 8 large marimo balls in two different tanks. They all move with the current or with the corydoras pushing them around, and all do well. I take them out and squeeze them and clean them then plop them back in my tank. Never put any with my discus but I don't see why they wouldn't do well. I cant seem to get rid of mine now actually.

[Hart24601]

I have not had the same experience as rick with my marimo balls. I have probably 8 large marimo balls in two different tanks. They all move with the current or with the corydoras pushing them around, and all do well. I take them out and squeeze them and clean them then plop them back in my tank. Never put any with my discus but I don't see why they wouldn't do well. I cant seem to get rid of mine now actually.

Happy to hear this! Anything that gets Bliss excited about the tank is a good thing! She thinks they look like the dust spirits from My Neighbor Totoro and Spirited Away. I have to admit they do kinda look like that.

[rickztahone]

I have not had the same experience as rick with my marimo balls. I have probably 8 large marimo balls in two different tanks. They all move with the current or with the corydoras pushing them around, and all do well. I take them out and squeeze them and clean them then plop them back in my tank. Never put any with my discus but I don't see why they wouldn't do well. I cant seem to get rid of mine now actually.

Glad to hear that too! Maybe I can start keeping this again. I had some in a small tank that had a lot of current (10g) and because it rolled around so much and died, I thought it was due to water movement. I went over on TPT and did see that people have theirs rolling as well. I may not have had a suitable tank for them :(. I can always try again though. Thanks for bringing this up. I really like the look of the marimo balls.

[Hart24601]

Let's try a video. She wants even more of the balls, haha.


http://youtu.be/hgtbQgEa9ps

[jmf3460]

this tank screams for wild strains, single species, heckels .......that's it, this tank screams heckels to me!! I like the moss balls, gosh those are small, you should get with a guy that sells huge ones in bulk over on theplantedtank.net its another forum like this whats his name I cant remember but he has really big balls..............had to say it!

edit: they have them on amazon http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=marimo+moss+ball way cheaper than at the pet store. I have bought from invert obsession many times, they are good.

HECKELS OP, HECKELS

[Hart24601]

The balls in there are a bit over 2", so they are not all that tiny, haha! I actually ordered that exact link from amazon yesterday after Bliss said she wanted more.

I do have to admit that heckles would be sweet looking in there. I read they are more advanced though, and I am not quite ready for that! Plus I already paid Hans 1,400 to hold on to so leopard snakeskins and checkerboard for me! But I agree that heckels would be amazing in there. I will be adding about 100 cardinal tetras too.

[jmf3460]

I do have to admit that heckles would be sweet looking in there. I read they are more advanced though, and I am not quite ready for that! Plus I already paid Hans 1,400 to hold on to so leopard snakeskins and checkerboard for me! But I agree that heckels would be amazing in there. I will be adding about 100 cardinal tetras too.

good lord I cannot wait. 100 cardinals will be awesome!

[Hart24601]

I do have a question. The cardinals and discus are arriving only a couple days apart. I was planning on keeping the tetras in a 44g brute can to make sure they are all healthy, or should I put everything in the display since really they are all new? That makes me nervous with all that $$ in discus, but normally if you get multiple fish at the same time they all go into the same QT tank (at least I did), so would they all go in the display?

[jmf3460]

we know u are getting your discus from hans, where are the cardinals coming from? they will need their own separate qt bt a brute tc wont work you wont be able to see them to monitor them. You need like a 20 gal long for them for like a month or so...are the cardinals wild??

[Hart24601]

Yea, jumbo cardinals from aquabid. They are wild and the vendor said he treated for external parasites.

I have a 20L sitting around as well as rubbermaid rectangular bins and have used them all for QT at some point and like the brute can the best just because I have found some fish like enclosed round walls after shipping so they can see and not hit the sides plus get a nice circular flow, the top down view has never been a real issue, but I can use the 20L if it's that much better.

[jmf3460]

chances are they are from John (snookn21) he does qt his wild caught fish but you don't know how long he has had them. my advice is to qt in the 20L for quite some time until you are 100% sure that they have no disease. I currently have a large group of cardinals in qt from John. I have not treated them for anything, just monitoring them and waiting until they are big enough to go into the show tank. I have had them in qt for a month now.

[Hart24601]

Yes, they are from John. He must be the "go to" for large groups of cardinals!

[rickztahone]

Yes, they are from John. He must be the "go to" for large groups of cardinals!

well at least quality ones :)

[Arizona Discus]

Very Cool!!! Exciting to see the end result :-)

[DonMD]

If I were you, I would put the discus in your beautiful new tank, and keep the tetras separate, in a different room even, for 2 weeks to monitor for health. Then I would take one of the discus and put it in with the cardinals for 6 weeks. Only after successfully passing this test would I combine the two. I've had to cull my entire discus population twice due to bringing in infected fish. It's a hard lesson to learn. -Don

[Hart24601]

Good call. I asked Hans and he said to QT for 4-6 weeks. The trying one discus at that time is a good idea.

[jmf3460]

ahh yes the chosen discus, choose your runt to do this. or the one lowest on the chain of command after observing their behavior for a while.

[Hart24601]

It will be interesting to see if I can catch one when the time comes... but that is a month away, haha.

[Jack L]

For a slate bottom on the driftwood just go to homedepot and get some tile? Drill and screw with stainless hardware?

that is what i do, with a galvanized screw, though most of the wood i buy sinks

[Jack L]

If anyone else has any thoughts about the DW I would like to hear it, the above was just my thoughts initially. Keep in mind the iphone pic without water isn't exactly true to life either.

once you get some algae or tie on some moss it will blend, but i took the miss match colors out of mine and it looked better

[Jack L]

I have not had the same experience as rick with my marimo balls. I have probably 8 large marimo balls in two different tanks. They all move with the current or with the corydoras pushing them around, and all do well. I take them out and squeeze them and clean them then plop them back in my tank. Never put any with my discus but I don't see why they wouldn't do well. I cant seem to get rid of mine now actually.

those moss balls are tough IME, i tore one in half to see what would happen and it kept on going.

i don't like the look of them so i hide them behind wood, they are supposed to help with algae, but i haven't seen that happen

[Hart24601]

Well the cardinals are in QT now. 5 dead, not too bad. Will stay there several weeks at least.

Ordered a gold nugget that will go in QT as well. Always really liked them.

Discus arrive tomorrow!

[Jack L]

if your driftwood is leaching and you don't like the look, i found purigen works to absorb the tannins very well. the purigen regeneration process is tedious, and the material itself doesn't smell very pleasant. a very strong fish smell

post pick of gold nugget.

[Hart24601]

I don't have the gold nugget yet, just ordered. I am currently running 500ml purigen, 500ml ROX 0.8 carbon and 50mg/hr ozone in the sump for filtration along with 60g/day auto water change. The purigen really does soak up the tannins though, at least it's turning color much faster than in other systems I have had that didn't have driftwood.

[Jack L]

500mg, i should have bought more than these little 100 bags. two 100 bags were used in a couple weeks


what bag to you use for 500?

[Hart24601]

Seachem sells "the bag" - the same small hole size as the 100ml guys but bigger and reusable. 500ml fills it up, but fits. I also use "the bag" with the rox carbon since it's also small.

[Jack L]

thanks.

have you tried to regenerate it yet? the 3rd step that says soak in discus buffer or neutral regulator didn't make sense to me. i did it though.

[DonMD]

Well the cardinals are in QT now. 5 dead, not too bad. Will stay there several weeks at least.

Ordered a gold nugget that will go in QT as well. Always really liked them.

Discus arrive tomorrow!

I am surprised to hear you say that 5 dead isn't too bad. Really? That would sound alarm bells for me. I now that tetras can be temperamental, but even so, I am glad you have decided to QT them for a significant amount of time. If 5 have died so soon, maybe more will follow? And then for what reason, you'll ask. I have done exactly what you are doing, and brought in sick fish from what I thought was a reputable breeder. I ended up throwing them all out and sterilizing my QT tank again, but saved all my discus. Good luck with this process!

[Hart24601]

I don't do the recharge buffer/neutral buffer thing. I just let it soak in tap water and change it out a few times. Charged purigen tends to drop ph, but only problem in small tanks ime.

I have ordered wild cardinals before in the couple hundred range over the years for various tanks and typically there is some amount of doa or shortly after when they arrive. I take it you have ordered groups of a few hundred cardinals before and any deaths have been rare for you? Searching around on forums earlier it sounded to me like losses are typically higher than that. The cardinals are not from a breeder but an importer since they are wild. They have been subjected to a great deal and may be very old (for cardinals) and just don't hold up to the shipping well.

I also will do a full treatment of prazipro and metro on them while in QT. Some don't like to do that, but I prefer to do it with wilds.

[Hart24601]

I don't think I said this earlier, but I upgraded the heater from the 500w to 800w. The 500 could keep the tank at 82, but was running all the time. The 800 is keeping things rock steady 82.5 and only has to run a little bit (according to apex power usage). The 500 will make a good backup.
89317

[rickztahone]

nice feature for the Apex :)

[Hart24601]

It's not needed but fun to see pH, orp, temp and amps all graphed out.

Interesting how the larger heater dropped the average amps. I guess the smaller heater only maintained the radiated heat at 82.

[Hart24601]

So excited for discus tomorrow!! Hope Hans hooks me up! ;)

[Jack L]

It's not needed but fun to see pH, orp, temp and amps all graphed out.

Interesting how the larger heater dropped the average amps. I guess the smaller heater only maintained the radiated heat at 82.

i'm resisting these toys for now : )

[Hart24601]

Wow. Hans delivered!

When taking them out I thought they seemed pretty big for 4", measured the biggest snakeskin - a tad over 5"!!!
893458934689347


edit: I don't know how to fix photos on their side when uploaded from my iPhone...

[jmf3460]

GOOD LOOKING FISH. and your helper is right there to help sniff them out I see. My "helper" does the same thing, fish must pass the sniff test before entering my tank. ha. Cant wait to see updated tank shots with the fish!!!

[Hart24601]

Strange issue. One of the fish has a really strange eye. The other eye is fine and looks like the rest of the fish. Thoughts? It's more noticeable in person that the pic.

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[jmf3460]

simple, fish is demonic. I'd give it a few days probably just a bit of damage from shipping, fresh water is all it needs.

[rickztahone]

I'd actually reach out to Hans. That seems more like a permanent damage that may have been caused during shipping

[Hart24601]

I just heard back. Hans said it was not from shipping and must have got by him. He asked what I want to do - but I have no idea, lol. I like the fish just fine - but said I would take a discount on another fish! After all a $100 fish should be perfect!

[rickztahone]

I'm glad Hans took care of you

[Hart24601]

Hans said when I ordered 6 leopards 4" he didnt know he only had 5, so he already gave me a 5" for the cost of a 4" and he figures we are even! Well I had to try ;)

[Jack L]

Strange issue. One of the fish has a really strange eye. The other eye is fine and looks like the rest of the fish. Thoughts? It's more noticeable in person that the pic.

89348

the eye looks like it has a hole it in?? or is that the photo playing a trick?

[Jack L]

Hans said when I ordered 6 leopards 4" he didnt know he only had 5, so he already gave me a 5" for the cost of a 4" and he figures we are even! Well I had to try ;)

oorrrr....
respond, i really had my heart set on 4" fish, but i'm okay with the larger 5" if it helps him out LOL

well you could ask for a discus with a complete eye then ; )

[Hart24601]

They are hiding now, shy little things. It does look kinda like a hole, but inside the eye, not like a hole that is exposed, hard to explain.

[Hart24601]

So how long does it take for them to settle in and eat? So far nothing but cowering in the back. Never had fish this shy before.

[Jack L]

So how long does it take for them to settle in and eat? So far nothing but cowering in the back. Never had fish this shy before.

are these your first Discus or you mean you haven't had shy discus before?

[Hart24601]

My 1st discus in 20 years!

[Jack L]

Took mine couple days, they didn't all adjust at same time either.

Brine shrimp seemed to loosen then up some too

[rickztahone]

The most it has taken me is roughly 3 weeks. Currently, the group I have is acting rather shy, and I've had them for 2 weeks. However, they are in a very high traffic area

[Hart24601]

Good to know it's nothing unusual. They have been pecking at food, been trying all sorts of things.

[Hart24601]

Discus is are coming out more for food now. Slowly getting brave, or braver at least! I tap the rim of the aquarium every feeding so they get used to noise. Got the l177 gold nugget from John today. Into QT. 8942889429

[jmf3460]

beautiful pleco!!! really beautiful!!

[rickztahone]

Yup, very nice. Just remember to be very watchful with ANY plecostomus, some will get a taste of the discus side and will not let up.

[cedar]

wow, I too had salt water but yours was amazing.!! I can't wait to see what you do with the discus!!

[Jack L]

nice, i'm looking for some now, i never considered them before, but on other thread members convinced me to give them a chance.

[Hart24601]

wow, I too had salt water but yours was amazing.!! I can't wait to see what you do with the discus!!


Thanks! Today some came up and ate from my fingers so that is a start!

[Hart24601]

Yup, very nice. Just remember to be very watchful with ANY plecostomus, some will get a taste of the discus side and will not let up.


I will keep an eye out for that! I sure hope that doesn't happen.

[cedar]

Im glad I read this thread Rick, I didn't know that about pleco's . I will take mine out and just leave the cory cats.:)
sue

[rickztahone]

Im glad I read this thread Rick, I didn't know that about pleco's . I will take mine out and just leave the cory cats.:)
sue

Don't take them out. Just observe them. If you notice the discus has small circular rings on the side of their bodies, that is typically the sure sign that they are latching on. It all depends on the Pleco really. You can have a tank full of them, and only 1 attaches. It is a very tank to tank basis.

[jmf3460]

Yup, very nice. Just remember to be very watchful with ANY plecostomus, some will get a taste of the discus side and will not let up.
agreed, I have been lucky and have had 4 ancistrus with my discus for as long as I have had them and have no problems but I am never "unwatchful" I always keep a look out. maybe its because I keep my ancistrus well fed with veggies and pellets

[rickztahone]

agreed, I have been lucky and have had 4 ancistrus with my discus for as long as I have had them and have no problems but I am never "unwatchful" I always keep a look out. maybe its because I keep my ancistrus well fed with veggies and pellets

This raises a valid point. Many times, people keep plecos and expect them to feed off of the tank algae. Many times, there is a lack of algae and they start looking for food somewhere else. Supplement their diet with weighted blanched or raw veggies and they will love you for it. Cucumber is an absolute favorite of theirs.

[Hart24601]

I got one shot, ha!

89546

[Jack L]

Thanks! Today some came up and ate from my fingers so that is a start!

where is the photo of the salt tank?

[Jack L]

nice, crazy the colors that have been developed!

is that real wood behind it?

how to they respond to the extra current from that powerhead?

[Hart24601]

I think the photos when it was a reef are on page 1? There is also a description of the wood that is behind the discus a couple pages back too.

So far they seem just fine with the flow. I turned the vortech down to the lowest speed when I got them. I have been gradually increasing the flow. About 30-40% right now, but the power head is set to produce random flow so it ramps the speed up and down but never higher than the max I set. It flows over 4,500gph at max flow, but it is a very wide output so the water speed isn't that crazy. Just moves a lot of water.

[Jack L]

I think the photos when it was a reef are on page 1? There is also a description of the wood that is behind the discus a couple pages back too.

So far they seem just fine with the flow. I turned the vortech down to the lowest speed when I got them. I have been gradually increasing the flow. About 30-40% right now, but the power head is set to produce random flow so it ramps the speed up and down but never higher than the max I set. It flows over 4,500gph at max flow, but it is a very wide output so the water speed isn't that crazy. Just moves a lot of water.

ah..i remember the wood thread now, it looks soooo much different in the photo it i didn't recognize it until going back in thread.

ah..and the hypercolor reef now it is all coming back to me : ) my 2 cents...already better as a D tank!... and if you ever do plants it will be even better.

FWIW, if tempted to attach java moss to the wood(a look you see in many photos), think twice, the stuff goes nuts and gets rather long. it also collect all the detritus, i got rid of all mine. i didn't try any other mosses, maybe one of the other varieties would be better. it looked greate, but not worth the hassle.

how is the one with the eye? or did i miss that update too.

[Hart24601]

The demon discus (aka one with funny eye) is doing well from what I can tell. At this point some of the discus are much braver than others, hard for me to tell what ones are getting food, but I am feeding the tank a ton, so there should be plenty to go around.

I don't really have a desire for plants in the tank, I used to have lots of planted tanks, but for some reason they don't really do it for me anymore. Although I really do like java fern, so if I can think of a nice way to use some eventually I might do that. My friend gives that stuff away it grows so well for him.

The driftwood still has a pretty thick slime coat. It is going away finally, but it has been nasty. I suck some of it off when I take out the food at the end of the day. I think it might be causing a skum on the water surface which is strange with the overflow and both returns pointed at the surface AND the vortech it still develops, never had that with the reef.

I did turn the vortech up a bit, now runs up to around 50% total power, discus seem fine with it and it is moving the moss around a little bit. There is pretty much nothing to suck off the bottom at the end of the day, I just swap the filter socks out.

Had to laugh at the hyper-color reef comment, it was a tremendous amount of work to get those colors to come out, lol!

[jmf3460]

dang I was hoping this update would be FTS shots with fish

[rickztahone]

I would advise you to either lower the powerhead to a very low setting, or not using it at all. Discus are not fans of current, and medium to high current will simply stress them out.

[Hart24601]

I started with the powerhead at the lowest setting, they appear completely fine with it higher. I did some searching and there have been people that have a decent amount of flow with discus. The vortech is a broad flow, so while it moves a good deal of water it is over a large surface area so the water velocity isn't as high compared to normal powerheads. Unless you are directly in front of the powerhead there isn't really a current exactly, but just mass water movement.

I will watch the discus, no doubt, but I think the low flow thing might be outdated information. I remember when anything more than a couple hundred gallons per hour was thought to kill the fish from exhaustion. I still have an old diatom filter and the instructions say, even in a reef tank, to not run continuously because fish can't handle that much flow of 450gph! While discus are not reef fish by any stretch of the imagination, I was running 14,000 gallons per hour in the tank when a reef, not varying flow either, continuous output. It was just in mass water movement, not streams of current.

[Hart24601]

The cardinals have been through a round of pazi/metro and 2 weeks of cupramine. I will add them soon, they are looking and eating great after coming through the cupramine. I am a big fan of cupramine for QT use although I know many don't agree with it.

[Hart24601]

So it's not very good, but fts. The discus are still skittish. The checkerboard seem much bolder, could there really be a difference in strains like that? Maybe they were in a tank that saw more people or were at Hans longer? 200 cardinals look nice in there.

89634

[jmf3460]

oh my op, stunning absolutely stunning. the cardinals look awesome. gosh I have nothing negative to say about this at all this is absolutely gorgeous!!! good job OP you have done well!

[Hart24601]

oh my op, stunning absolutely stunning. the cardinals look awesome. gosh I have nothing negative to say about this at all this is absolutely gorgeous!!! good job OP you have done well!

Awwwww, thanks! Made my day!

[Jack L]

The demon discus (aka one with funny eye) is doing well from what I can tell. At this point some of the discus are much braver than others, hard for me to tell what ones are getting food, but I am feeding the tank a ton, so there should be plenty to go around.

I don't really have a desire for plants in the tank, I used to have lots of planted tanks, but for some reason they don't really do it for me anymore. Although I really do like java fern, so if I can think of a nice way to use some eventually I might do that. My friend gives that stuff away it grows so well for him.

The driftwood still has a pretty thick slime coat. It is going away finally, but it has been nasty. I suck some of it off when I take out the food at the end of the day. I think it might be causing a skum on the water surface which is strange with the overflow and both returns pointed at the surface AND the vortech it still develops, never had that with the reef.

I did turn the vortech up a bit, now runs up to around 50% total power, discus seem fine with it and it is moving the moss around a little bit. There is pretty much nothing to suck off the bottom at the end of the day, I just swap the filter socks out.

Had to laugh at the hyper-color reef comment, it was a tremendous amount of work to get those colors to come out, lol!

hyper-color, it looked like it was under blacklight?

i'm on my last clean filter sock, i'll have to go through the cleaning process now. think i have 11 dirty now. if you don't have the itch for plants do not even bother, your tank good great the way it is. and the substrate is a huge PIA to keep clean. no vortex to keep it clean would work, the sand would just blow away.

[Hart24601]

The reef did look sorta under black light, the hard part is getting those colors under 15k lighting, haha. Glad I am done fussing around with it.


It possible the discus are growing already?!? They sure look larger...

[Hart24601]

So after the last update the discus have decided to hide all the time. I don't know why they started doing it, nothing else changed, but they all hide under the driftwood branch and I don't see them very often and they don't come out for food. Rarely see them at the front of the tank, but the checkerboards are much braver for whatever reason.

I moved the rock by the branch to give them less hiding spaces and that seems to have worked a bit, but I really liked the looks with the large rock at the base of the wood, but oh well...

I didn't want any plants, but I have added some java ferns to try and make the fish feel secure in other parts of the tank and draw them out a bit more. I have ordered some more ferns and will attach them to the rock with some superglue. Not the look I was going for, but hopefully the fish like it more.

So far I am kinda wishing I had just done fish only marine setup. I have not been impressed with my discus so far...

[rickztahone]

So after the last update the discus have decided to hide all the time. I don't know why they started doing it, nothing else changed, but they all hide under the driftwood branch and I don't see them very often and they don't come out for food. Rarely see them at the front of the tank, but the checkerboards are much braver for whatever reason.

I moved the rock by the branch to give them less hiding spaces and that seems to have worked a bit, but I really liked the looks with the large rock at the base of the wood, but oh well...

I didn't want any plants, but I have added some java ferns to try and make the fish feel secure in other parts of the tank and draw them out a bit more. I have ordered some more ferns and will attach them to the rock with some superglue. Not the look I was going for, but hopefully the fish like it more.

So far I am kinda wishing I had just done fish only marine setup. I have not been impressed with my discus so far...

Have you considered lowering the wave maker? Also, typically when you give discus places to hide, they will. Discus take quite a while to settle in to their digs. Hiding is a natural behavior for them, but hiding can also mean they are sick. Are any of them turning dark or showing pronounced bars?

[strawberryblonde]

If it was me, I'd just turn the wave maker off for a few days to see if it improves things. I know that my discus were bothered by the strong waterfall action of my 2 HOB filters! I removed one and replaced it with 2 hydro sponge filters and now they all crowd the front of the tank on the side without the HOB filter. They still avoid the other side completely. LOL

Ohhhh, the other thing you can do to help them acclimate to the tank and to seeing you walking around is to just pull up a chair and sit in front of the tank every night. Stare at them, talk to them, move around a bit and let them come on out and visit with you.

For my first group I actually ended up turning on the tv during the day while I was out of the house. It worked wonders.... and turned them into tv addicts too.

[Hart24601]

The vortech isn't exactly a wave maker, but I have turned it up, down, off, moved it to back wall- they discus seem totally indifferent to it. remember it doesn't make high velocity, just mass movement - even the little cardinals are not at all displaced by the current water movement, but the discus don't respond any differently at all with it totally switched off for a few days. I don't know what's going on but pretty sure it's not related to the vortech.

Anyone want a good deal on some discus, lol. They did possibly show signs of hex and I got done treating the tank with metro. Will see how they look after a few days. At least the other fish look great. I can stand there and look at the discus and one scares the others and they pop right into the glass - thunk thunk thunk x4. Regretting spending 1400 bucks for sure.

[Jack L]

So after the last update the discus have decided to hide all the time. I don't know why they started doing it, nothing else changed, but they all hide under the driftwood branch and I don't see them very often and they don't come out for food. Rarely see them at the front of the tank, but the checkerboards are much braver for whatever reason.

I moved the rock by the branch to give them less hiding spaces and that seems to have worked a bit, but I really liked the looks with the large rock at the base of the wood, but oh well...

I didn't want any plants, but I have added some java ferns to try and make the fish feel secure in other parts of the tank and draw them out a bit more. I have ordered some more ferns and will attach them to the rock with some superglue. Not the look I was going for, but hopefully the fish like it more.

So far I am kinda wishing I had just done fish only marine setup. I have not been impressed with my discus so far...

why choose, do both ; )

my Ds have been going spastic sometimes and then not at all. one actually jumped out of tank and landed on top other day when i was cutting plant. i haven't seen any correlation as to why, they go after each other too more now.

i actually think it is interesting how well these fish can hide behind a blade or two of val.

if i hold a chunk of food in the tank they will eventually come up to eat, you could try that to see if they come out more.

[Hart24601]

I am still hoping that when I get more Java ferns I can make a few clumps and draw them out. I am on Facebook groups and those discus are out!!!!

[Jack L]

I am still hoping that when I get more Java ferns I can make a few clumps and draw them out. I am on Facebook groups and those discus are out!!!!

mine are out right now, but 10 mins ago they were torpedoing around. fish..being fish.

others may argue, but i thought fish feel more at ease when they have a place to retreat too when they want to, then come out when they are ready. when fishing, i never have much luck in open water.

[Hart24601]

Good point. Strange I moved the rock to get rid of that spot and it helped them come out though. I will let you know, I think a couple strategic placements might work. Amazing how the different colors act so differently.

[Jack L]

mine do hide sometimes, don't get me wrong, but i just prefer to give them a spot to retreat to when needed.

[Tshethar]

Anyone want a good deal on some discus, lol. They did possibly show signs of hex and I got done treating the tank with metro. Will see how they look after a few days. At least the other fish look great. I can stand there and look at the discus and one scares the others and they pop right into the glass - thunk thunk thunk x4. Regretting spending 1400 bucks for sure.

Dude, just have to say thanks for a real laugh on here at the end of a long week. That is too funny. Ah, the life of the hobbyist, eh?

As for me, I started my tank build at about the same time as you--sans thread, but with some summer posting activity and questions--but things have been going sideways enough since July that I still haven't bought more than driftwood, plants and plecos... Now that the urgency of the new romance has faded, I laugh at the absurdity of it all... been too busy and tired from work to stop and decide whether I'm more frustrated I am still waiting for the right time to add discus, or, on the contrary, relieved that I have been saved from a responsibility I haven't been ready to assume (i.e., a bad fishy marriage! Or worse, death(s) under suspicious circumstances!) :wasntme:

Anyway, thanks again for some much-needed irreverence, and seriously, I hope your fish are healthy, continue settling in, and eventually start showing some love! :fish::heart2:

[Hart24601]

Dude, just have to say thanks for a real laugh on here at the end of a long week. That is too funny. Ah, the life of the hobbyist, eh?

As for me, I started my tank build at about the same time as you--sans thread, but with some summer posting activity and questions--but things have been going sideways enough since July that I still haven't bought more than driftwood, plants and plecos... Now that the urgency of the new romance has faded, I laugh at the absurdity of it all... been too busy and tired from work to stop and decide whether I'm more frustrated I am still waiting for the right time to add discus, or, on the contrary, relieved that I have been saved from a responsibility I haven't been ready to assume (i.e., a bad fishy marriage! Or worse, death(s) under suspicious circumstances!) :wasntme:

Anyway, thanks again for some much-needed irreverence, and seriously, I hope your fish are healthy, continue settling in, and eventually start showing some love! :fish::heart2:


Haha. Glad you chimed in! It's frustrating but keeping a sense of humor helps! I say should have picked up 1000 Cardinal tetras and called it done!!!!

[rickztahone]

Don't get frustrated. It has happened to a lot of us in the hobby where we want our discus to simply COME OUT! lol. My advice? You probably won't like it, but remove EVERYTHING in the tank, and turn off the vortec for at least a couple of weeks. See how they react. Worse case scenario you go back to the way things were by putting the stuff back in and turning the vortec back on.

[DJW]

I remember my grandparents arguing about this 45 or 50 years ago. My grandfather had an old discus he claimed was over 10 years old that was always hiding behind a rock at the back of the tank. My grandmother said, "Just take that rock out so we can see the fish!" and he said, "If he wants to hide, let him hide."

[strawberryblonde]

I should have mentioned that I have 2 who hide nearly 24 hours a day. I worried at first thinking they must be sick. And eventually I just accepted that they are strange and weird and not comfortable in the spotlight.

One is a little yellow checkerboard pigeon. He likes to hide under the heater, but because it's so close to the bottom of the tank he has to tip himself sideways and practically lay on the sand. The only time he comes out is after I put food in and walk away. If anyone walks by the tank while he's eating, he immediately swishes back to the heater and tips himself over till it's "safe" again.

The other is a 7" male eruption leopard. The guy got badly beaten up a month or so ago when my RC and GS were laying eggs - he was young and curious and they took offense to him nosing around. After he recovered from the bites and bruises he took to blending in with the background. He only only ONLY comes out at night when I dim the lights, about an hour before bedtime. I have no idea when he eats! But he's nice and fat and still growing, so I guess he's finding food back there somewhere. LOL

The rest were pretty darned skittish when I first got them, but I'm the type who never leaves them alone, so after a month or so they just accepted my presence and ignore me.

[Hart24601]

I will try the Java ferns before I strip the tank bare. That is probably the best advise... Honestly if it comes to that I will pro all give them away though.

I would t mind them just hiding all the time, but I don't think many of them are eating and that is what concerns me.

I have more ferns coming, but here is the 1st set. They glue well to the rock.

9098890988

[Hart24601]

I also moved the returns away from the surface. I got these LEDs for the shimmer, but maybe was too much.

[pastry]

They'll be fine. Give it time... Time will get their hormones pumping... Then they'll be pushing one another all over the tank. My tank is right next to front door along with one 1 yo and a 4 yo running around the house but the still come on out to watch us as much as we watch them... Especially during feeding time. Try not to get them addicted but feed frozen bw

[pastry]

Beautiful tank and fish by the way!

[Filip]

My past experience is that in an empty tank ,without any object,decor and plants they are the least shy and scared.It always amazed me and make me sratch my head ,but thats just the way they were.
Even with the sick and most skittish discus when i put them in empty BB they were always on front glass swimming freely. It always had me frustrated.

Right now im in a start ,only 30 days with a new batch of 7 semi adult discus in planted tank and experienced hardtime for 20 days always wondering and worring if they are sick or just skittiish.
After the 20 th day things started to look better,so now they are fine and im happy again.
Hope in time it will turn out good for you also.

[pastry]

It will! Mine still hug closely to all my driftwood at times and then roam all over at other times

[rickztahone]

A strong light is also a stress factor for discus. Try dimming the lights (if applicable) to see if that helps.

[Hart24601]

I think adding plants is helping, the vertical orientation of the java ferns seem to give them some comfort. It's fine with me if they hide in the plants as long as they are doing ok! The lights are already dimmed to the very max they allow. I think 10% of output. I still have some more plants to try, will put some anubias on rocks too and maybe some of the tiny anubias varieties on the wood.

[Hart24601]

I appreciate all the help, thanks everyone!

[rickztahone]

no problem. I'm just trying to voice all the usual suspects for discus remaining hidden. Like I said before, sometimes it just takes them a while to venture out.

[Hart24601]

Any other plants that can take the heat and grow on rock or wood? Have several varieties of anubias and java ferns coming. I plan on just attaching them to rocks and not the bottom.

[Hart24601]

Picked up some bucephalandra blue hill plants. Will ship out this week, from what I can tell grows well and ok with discus temps and attaches to rock. Got a pretty good size clump on ebay, they won't add vertical structure like the ferns, but will hopefully help.

[Jack L]

I think adding plants is helping, the vertical orientation of the java ferns seem to give them some comfort. It's fine with me if they hide in the plants as long as they are doing ok! The lights are already dimmed to the very max they allow. I think 10% of output. I still have some more plants to try, will put some anubias on rocks too and maybe some of the tiny anubias varieties on the wood.

so in that photo, with the crisp shadow...that is the light running at 10% output?

[Hart24601]

I think all the photos are with the light turned down. 10 or 15%, whatever the min kessils can go to.

[Hart24601]

Just adding plants may have done the trick. For the 1st time that I can remember the shy leopard snakeskin ate some fd blackworms. Apparently for this tank it either has to have more or less hiding spots.

[rickztahone]

Just adding plants may have done the trick. For the 1st time that I can remember the shy leopard snakeskin ate some fd blackworms. Apparently for this tank it either has to have more or less hiding spots.

do what you see working. The discus will always tell you what they want with their behavior.

[Hart24601]

It's a step in the right direction! At least I don't want to make a discus smoothie anymore, haha.

I picked up a 36w turbo twist UV unit powered with a sicce pump. Installed well and seems nice. I took the ozone offline, it really works better in saltwater in a protein skimmer, could never really get it how I wanted - but I had it left over from the reef so it was worth a try. So the equipment in the sump currently is 2 filter socks, large marine pure block, eheim SUBSTRAT pro (big bag), siporax media (another big bag), another bag of ceramic media I had from somewhere, 1L purigen in seachem's "the bag" and ROX activated carbon in another "the bag" and now the UV. OH! And the 800w titanium heater with controller and the various APEX probes. The line to the floor drain and the lines from the DOS auto water change system.

All the other fish have been doing great!

[rickztahone]

great equipment. Only suggestion? Pull out the carbon. Not needed with discus unless you are trying to remove meds.

BTW, I don't think I ever mentioned it, but your group of tetras is insane! I love it! My goal was to one day have a tank full of small dither fish, and the closest I came was a 55g with chilies. However, my inspiration was a 240g in an LFS with over 2k cardinal tetras!

[Hart24601]

That would be amazing! The tetras get more attention than anything else! The Shedd aquarium in Chicago has an Amazon tank with thousands and thousands of either cardinals or neons, I can't remember, but the system still sticks out in my mind, it is just amazing.


The carbon and purigen are a bit redundant, they both work in exactly the same way with nanoscopic pores that bind some compounds, they might have slightly different affinity for some molecules, but I really am only running the carbon since I have a lot of it from the reef and I might as well use it.

At least that mechanism is what Randy Holmes-Farley says how they both work and he should know!

Post 16 although he has said the same thing a few times.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13612099#post13612099

[rickztahone]

That would be amazing! The tetras get more attention than anything else! The Shedd aquarium in Chicago has an Amazon tank with thousands and thousands of either cardinals or neons, I can't remember, but the system still sticks out in my mind, it is just amazing.


The carbon and purigen are a bit redundant, they both work in exactly the same way with nanoscopic pores that bind some compounds, they might have slightly different affinity for some molecules, but I really am only running the carbon since I have a lot of it from the reef and I might as well use it.

At least that mechanism is what Randy Holmes-Farley says how they both work and he should know!

Post 16 although he has said the same thing a few times.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13612099#post13612099

This may be a unique thing to discus, but when you run carbon, the discus seem to be affected along the lateral line. This isn't scientifically proven, but over the years I have heard this correlation.

[jmf3460]

pull the carbon and add tannins!

[Hart24601]

The same thing has been seen in tangs quite a bit and the best explanation I have seen is that there are several grades of carbon and the lower grades release fine microscopic particles that are quite abrasive. It's not 100% proven, but I stay away from the dusty grades. Rox .8 is extruded in pellets and doesn't have dust issues as much. There is still a lot of debate. Here is one article and the gem is boomers contribution as well in comments.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/activated-carbon-affirmed-as-causative-agent-for-hlle-disease

[Hart24601]

The purigen would still absorb tannins. The uv might break them down a bit too.

[Hart24601]

It is a bit of a risk, although I will discontinue use if I notice any lateral line problems. Considering how obsessed discus keepers are with low DOC levels ultra hard high quality carbon like rox is worth it to me as it really is good at removing DOC from the water.

[rickztahone]

It is a bit of a risk, although I will discontinue use if I notice any lateral line problems. Considering how obsessed discus keepers are with low DOC levels ultra hard high quality carbon like rox is worth it to me as it really is good at removing DOC from the water.

It would be a good experiment actually considering you have finer carbon. Give it a try and if you do not notice any problems with it, then please report it. Hearsay can only go so far.

[Hart24601]

Will do! I plan on keeping the thread updated so I will post if I run into problems with any lateral line issues. The bag is a very fine one and it's just passive in the sump, so it's not like there is a tremendous amount of flow through it like a reactor.

Forgot to say I am still doing the auto water-change with 60 gallons a day with the APEX DOS from unheated brute can that has a shut-off valve to keep it full. The tap passes though the 1st two stages of my RO system, the sediment filter and carbon block but bypasses the membrane and DI. I think I talked about that before, but it's been working fine. I do use a little tube and manually siphon a couple gallons of water out every night to get any detritus that is left over. Generally there isn't much, but I have been feeding more to get them all to eat.

[rickztahone]

Will do! I plan on keeping the thread updated so I will post if I run into problems with any lateral line issues. The bag is a very fine one and it's just passive in the sump, so it's not like there is a tremendous amount of flow through it like a reactor.

Forgot to say I am still doing the auto water-change with 60 gallons a day with the APEX DOS from unheated brute can that has a shut-off valve to keep it full. The tap passes though the 1st two stages of my RO system, the sediment filter and carbon block but bypasses the membrane and DI. I think I talked about that before, but it's been working fine. I do use a little tube and manually siphon a couple gallons of water out every night to get any detritus that is left over. Generally there isn't much, but I have been feeding more to get them all to eat.

This is a drip system if I remember it?

[Hart24601]

Yes, pretty similar. The main difference is the water waits in a brute reservoir with circulation when many drip systems are straight from the tap using only the line pressure - i was originally going to have a small pump dose prime into the brute (1ml every hour), but using the 2 RO stages makes that not needed. The pumps don't run all the time though, it's all controlled by the software to prevent overheating and make the peristaltic heads last as long as possible. I have a high water float in the sump that shuts the pumps off and sends me a text and email should the drain line get clogged.

I doubt that I would have bought the APEX and matching DOS pumps just for discus, but I already had them from the reef so I wanted to adapt them.

[rickztahone]

Yes, pretty similar. The main difference is the water waits in a brute reservoir with circulation when many drip systems are straight from the tap using only the line pressure - i was originally going to have a small pump dose prime into the brute (1ml every hour), but using the 2 RO stages makes that not needed. The pumps don't run all the time though, it's all controlled by the software to prevent overheating and make the peristaltic heads last as long as possible. I have a high water float in the sump that shuts the pumps off and sends me a text and email should the drain line get clogged.

I doubt that I would have bought the APEX and matching DOS pumps just for discus, but I already had them from the reef so I wanted to adapt them.

I hear you there. The Apex is a pretty penny piece for sure.

[Jack L]

I think all the photos are with the light turned down. 10 or 15%, whatever the min kessils can go to.

maybe its the exposure on camera, but if that is set low, those things must get crazy bright

[Jack L]

It's a step in the right direction! At least I don't want to make a discus smoothie anymore, haha.

I picked up a 36w turbo twist UV unit powered with a sicce pump. Installed well and seems nice. I took the ozone offline, it really works better in saltwater in a protein skimmer, could never really get it how I wanted - but I had it left over from the reef so it was worth a try. So the equipment in the sump currently is 2 filter socks, large marine pure block, eheim SUBSTRAT pro (big bag), siporax media (another big bag), another bag of ceramic media I had from somewhere, 1L purigen in seachem's "the bag" and ROX activated carbon in another "the bag" and now the UV. OH! And the 800w titanium heater with controller and the various APEX probes. The line to the floor drain and the lines from the DOS auto water change system.

All the other fish have been doing great!

i'm going the other direction with my sump...
systematically removing surface area, since i have plants....i want to see how much they can do. and there is no solid investigations i have found that provide data driven recomendations on amount needed, just a LOT of informarketing is what i can find.
since every tank is different, i'll see what happens

[Jack L]

pull the carbon and add tannins!

in the form of tea right : )

[DJW]

Well there is Rooibos tea, Oak leaves, peat, Alder cones... and others. Peat is cheap but more work and a little dirty, but I use it too. I am lucky and have alder and oak in my backyard. Ordered Rooibos tea once from Davidsons but they sent me Darjeeling instead, so we have lots of nice Darjeeling tea!

[Hart24601]

Hmmmmm. So I may have overbought on plants... This isn't even all the Java fern I bought, and they are anubias coming too! Clearly the Java is going in my friends tank, I think I can use the anubias still and look ok. I didn't really want a planted tank, and clearly it's going to be more work keeping the roots clean, but all in all I think it's alright. Most importantly fish seem to like it.

91015

[Hart24601]

i'm going the other direction with my sump...
systematically removing surface area, since i have plants....i want to see how much they can do. and there is no solid investigations i have found that provide data driven recomendations on amount needed, just a LOT of informarketing is what i can find.
since every tank is different, i'll see what happens


I think your probably correct in that you don't need much, especially with discus sized waterchanges. Now with some huge biomass fish like pacu and no as much water change the media might be more important. I already had almost all the media though so might as well use it.

I think my iPhone makes the lights look stronger. Plus they are a cluster type LED so the shadows and shimmer are strong.

[Tshethar]

Tank looks great! Glad to know you've decided not to evict the glass-thumping fish before the first month is out... ;)

I admit that I find the setup really interesting, too. I can't afford to play with too much equipment these days ($), but can enjoy vicariously. Like a lot of folks who come through here I have some past experience in marine tanks, and have read some of the better-known old threads that attempt some interesting high-tech experiments, including with ozone. At least one well-known thread (Chad Hughes) delivered the ozone by mixing it in a cheap protein skimmer in the sump, with carbon behind it. (Given the cost of the dedicated reactors out there, I can see why.) I personally decided I didn't want to mess with that, partly because I didn't already have components ready-at-hand, nor experience with it, and I can appreciate the principle of simplicity (oft recommended on here, and with reason!). However, some of the things said about ORP led me to go ahead and add a UV to my fledgling setup, despite the fact that is isn't essential. I also read some of Randy Holmes-Farley's comments about carbon and decided to use some of the Seachem Matrix carbon passively in my (canister) system in addition to a Purigen reactor (in a Phosban 550). As I recall, the Matrix profiled pretty similarly to the Rox. (I need to read your links, but seem to remember ash content as one marker that people were looking at relative to risk for HLLE.) Still planning to do significant daily water changes once the fish show up, but I enjoy trying to have an edge and some insurance as I learn. I hope you'll let us know how things unfold (and how you tweak your system) over time. (Now that I've gone this route I won't be trying the rooibos anytime soon--I didn't realize till seeing a comment recently that the tea is used not merely for aesthetics but for anti-fungal and/or anti-bacterial attributes... would be interested in more about that, assuming that's accurate.)

Meanwhile, and most importantly, glad to know your fish are out and eating! Good news! Though I guess that means you won't be giving them away... :(

[alcastro]

what kind of glue did you use on rocks for the plants.
AL

[rickztahone]

what kind of glue did you use on rocks for the plants.
AL

Crazy glue works

[rickztahone]

OP, I like the way it looks with all those plants actually. It's going to be a pain to keep clean but the plants themselves will help reduce done nitrates

[Hart24601]

what kind of glue did you use on rocks for the plants.
AL

Gel superglue. I like gorilla glue, make sure it's the gel superglue and not regular gorilla glue, I used it for years in the reef. Went through dozens of bottles. The gorilla glue one lasts a long time as it closes back up nice and doesn't dry out.

[Hart24601]

Tank looks great! Glad to know you've decided not to evict the glass-thumping fish before the first month is out... ;)

I admit that I find the setup really interesting, too. I can't afford to play with too much equipment these days ($), but can enjoy vicariously. Like a lot of folks who come through here I have some past experience in marine tanks, and have read some of the better-known old threads that attempt some interesting high-tech experiments, including with ozone. At least one well-known thread (Chad Hughes) delivered the ozone by mixing it in a cheap protein skimmer in the sump, with carbon behind it. (Given the cost of the dedicated reactors out there, I can see why.) I personally decided I didn't want to mess with that, partly because I didn't already have components ready-at-hand, nor experience with it, and I can appreciate the principle of simplicity (oft recommended on here, and with reason!). However, some of the things said about ORP led me to go ahead and add a UV to my fledgling setup, despite the fact that is isn't essential. I also read some of Randy Holmes-Farley's comments about carbon and decided to use some of the Seachem Matrix carbon passively in my (canister) system in addition to a Purigen reactor (in a Phosban 550). As I recall, the Matrix profiled pretty similarly to the Rox. (I need to read your links, but seem to remember ash content as one marker that people were looking at relative to risk for HLLE.) Still planning to do significant daily water changes once the fish show up, but I enjoy trying to have an edge and some insurance as I learn. I hope you'll let us know how things unfold (and how you tweak your system) over time. (Now that I've gone this route I won't be trying the rooibos anytime soon--I didn't realize till seeing a comment recently that the tea is used not merely for aesthetics but for anti-fungal and/or anti-bacterial attributes... would be interested in more about that, assuming that's accurate.)

Meanwhile, and most importantly, glad to know your fish are out and eating! Good news! Though I guess that means you won't be giving them away... :(

Haha, not giving them away for now! ;)

I would try ozone if I had a few large tanks plumbed together. I got a behind the scenes tour of the Omaha zoo huge fish set ups and they use ozone primarily to remove yellow as carbon is too expensive on that scale and even a bit of discoloration really shows up when looking through ultra deep tanks.

I can't remember if I posted a pic of my modified ozone reactor, it did alright really, just a bit loud since freshwater doesn't produce tiny bubbles quite as easy. I used a phoshoban reactor with a powerhead and air pump - it had ok contact time, but nothing like tiny bubbles in saltwater.

[Hart24601]

Some top down shots before lights out.

9101791018

[rickztahone]

Your fern looks super healthy!

[Hart24601]

Well all the plants are in, so I thought I would take some photos. I always like to try and get at least the top of the tank in too, as how the tank looks in the room is almost as important to me as how the livestock looks inside.

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/IMG_2587_zps4gwziuez.jpghttp://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/IMG_2590_zpsvjiogrk5.jpghttp://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/IMG_2594_zpsm2ngxkkx.jpghttp://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/IMG_2600_zpsesgvkodl.jpghttp://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/IMG_2607_zps4k9hgzgy.jpghttp://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/IMG_2611_zps8getsvrd.jpg

[Hart24601]

And they must feel better about coming out to eat too:

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/IMG_2612_zpsipf4qcxg.jpghttp://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/IMG_2613_zpsmbkpeltx.jpghttp://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Bret_Hartman/IMG_2615_zpsfagayru3.jpg

[alcastro]

This is one the best ways to display your plants, your tank and fish look great.

[Jack L]

I think your probably correct in that you don't need much, especially with discus sized waterchanges. Now with some huge biomass fish like pacu and no as much water change the media might be more important. I already had almost all the media though so might as well use it.

I think my iPhone makes the lights look stronger. Plus they are a cluster type LED so the shadows and shimmer are strong.

well, i read this old book, and i tend to trust old books more than new websites....with links to sell me things
there was quite a bit of discussion on how all the media in the filters can outcompete the plants, and in the end produce more NITRATE than if the plants could use it up

i know matrix i bought didn't seem to help with Nitrates as advertised...looks neat thought ; )

[Jack L]

i really like the changes, but then i'm biased toward plants.

that was tedious gluing them wasn't it. but SOOOOO much better with glue than string. i find the gel glue worked better and doen't matter if things are wet much.

good luck, hope you are not feeling like flushing them anymore.

are you still running the purigen?

[Hart24601]

Glueing was really pretty easy, but I have done that so much with the reef I had plenty of practice and it only took a few minutes once I decided on placement.

Yea I have calmed down with them, lol.

Still running the purigen with the other filter media.

[Hart24601]

This is one the best ways to display your plants, your tank and fish look great.


Thanks! I appreciate it.

[mkng07]

Well done. Its stunning and must be even better in person. I've always liked the rimless tanks. Only thing is, couldn't the discus potentially jump out of the tank?

[Hart24601]

Yes, always a risk with rimless although some fish are much more likely to jump. It also helps the tank level a couple inches below the rim. With all the cover the discus just dart to plants now and not frantic like before, so fingers crossed!


Many folks put a clear mesh frame on rimless for jumpers, but I have not had many issues personally, although I do avoid jumpers.

[Discus-n00b]

You went from an amazing reef to an amazing discus display, looks excellent!

[jmf3460]

well done OP. plants look good and fish look happy

[Hart24601]

Thanks for the kind words, although it's not my original plan I do think it looks pretty nice and the couple of people I have had over they seem to like it more with plants too. Now I just have to keep them looking nice!!!

I do hope that no one reading this thought I was really serious about making discus smoothies... I just had to blow off a little steam! Thanks for the help, I am sure I will need more help in the future.

[rickztahone]

quick question, I had to go back to the beginning to check but did you do the cut out for your overflow, or did the manufacturer do that for you?

[Hart24601]

That was all done by Miracles. We went back and forth for the design and they sent pdf drawings before the construction. The back glass is tempered, so they did all the cutting and drilling before the tempering process. They also did the construction of the external overflow. They are really an impressive tank manufacturer.

[rickztahone]

That was all done by Miracles. We went back and forth for the design and they sent pdf drawings before the construction. The back glass is tempered, so they did all the cutting and drilling before the tempering process. They also did the construction of the external overflow. They are really an impressive tank manufacturer.

ugghh, that company seems perfect for what I want in my next tank but they are in Canada! I imagine the shipping would make the tank too expensive. That blows :(

Thanks for the link though.

[Hart24601]

I got quotes from most of the major custom aquarium manufactures and even with shipping Miracles was one of the cheapest options but still regarded by some as one of, if not the best manufacturer in north america (by some of the tank makers on Reef Central at least). It helps the dollar is strong right now. Granted custom tanks are still serious bucks compared to standard pet store models...

I think the crating and shipping was 400, and they really went all out with the crate. Despite the tank only being 4x2x2 we went with 3/4" glass so the thing was/is super heavy. I think if you go rimless and down to 22 or 20 inches tall you can drop to 1/2" glass (or use a eurobrace) and since I used starfire that would save some huge money.

They are really nice and it's worth a call to talk over designs imo!

[rickztahone]

I got quotes from most of the major custom aquarium manufactures and even with shipping Miracles was one of the cheapest options but still regarded by some as one of, if not the best manufacturer in north america (by some of the tank makers on Reef Central at least). It helps the dollar is strong right now. Granted custom tanks are still serious bucks compared to standard pet store models...

I think the crating and shipping was 400, and they really went all out with the crate. Despite the tank only being 4x2x2 we went with 3/4" glass so the thing was/is super heavy. I think if you go rimless and down to 22 or 20 inches tall you can drop to 1/2" glass (or use a eurobrace) and since I used starfire that would save some huge money.

They are really nice and it's worth a call to talk over designs imo!

The reason why I think it wouldn't be worth it is because I am planning a small tank build, but I want it custom due to the overflow setup and materials. I think the shipping would be more expensive than the tank itself which is why I mentioned that this may not be the best option. If I was going with a large tank then it probably wouldn't have been a huge issue.

[Hart24601]

Ah, that makes sense. I got a bit excited, lol. Ever look at ghost overflows? Get a long skimmer area but with only a couple holes. I think they are also called synergy overflows now as the two companies had some sort of marking agreement that is now over.

[rickztahone]

Ah, that makes sense. I got a bit excited, lol. Ever look at ghost overflows? Get a long skimmer area but with only a couple holes. I think they are also called synergy overflows now as the two companies had some sort of marking agreement that is now over.

Yeah, I considered both but at the end of the day I ended up welding up my own out of acrylic and have no regrets. However, this new tank I have in mind is a little different than I have ever done, and having a cut out as you have on yours I believe to be the ticket. Seeing as you have the setup I am trying to emmulate in my mind, would you mind telling me, when the water flows over to the external box, does it stay at the same height as the DT water line or do the elbows in the box, specifically the open channel one determine the height of the water level in the external box? I hope that makes sense.

Not sure if you are a member on Scape (I doubt you would be), but I have a thread over there describing what I want and why I want it the way I want it. Check it out if you get a chance:
http://scapeclub.org/forum/showthread.php?29367-Customized-tank-options

[Discus-n00b]

I had mine shipped to SC from Miracles in Canada Ricardo lol. Shipping was "cheap" back then though, that's multiple years ago now. Was cheaper than getting a domestic tank, not sure it is anymore though. Had it shipped to the office loading dock as adding a lift gate truck would cost more. I just checked my email from long ago, I was quoted $960 for my tank shipping included. That's a 48x24x20, starphire glass 3 sided, 1/2" glass with polished edges tank crated and shipped to me. Pretty good custom tank wise IMO, especially if you were to go get a quote from Reef Savvy lol.

Can't hurt to get a quote and see.

[rickztahone]

I had mine shipped to SC from Miracles in Canada Ricardo lol. Shipping was "cheap" back then though, that's multiple years ago now. Was cheaper than getting a domestic tank, not sure it is anymore though. Had it shipped to the office loading dock as adding a lift gate truck would cost more. I just checked my email from long ago, I was quoted $960 for my tank shipping included. That's a 48x24x20, starphire glass 3 sided, 1/2" glass with polished edges tank crated and shipped to me. Pretty good custom tank wise IMO, especially if you were to go get a quote from Reef Savvy lol.

Can't hurt to get a quote and see.

I suppose you are right. You may grin to know that this tank would be a small reef tank if it ever comes to fruition. My goal is absolutely clean look though with RBTA's and a couple of high end clowns.

I will not go off topic anymore though OP, I do not want to take the glory that is your thread here. Thank you for the advice about Miracles and thank you too Matt, I had forgotten you had told me you had actually gotten that tank from Miracles.

[Hart24601]

Don't worry, it's not off topic! My tank journal thread and I enjoy talking about all sorts of tanks, the more conversation the better!

I checked out the other thread. If you don't want bulkheads how are you going to plumb the return? I have two bulkheads in the rear of the tank. You could put a flush screen on them if you wanted though.

For my external overflow I have tried to take pics before and they are never all that great, but I will try and describe it. Page 5 of my reef 2 reef build has some pics too, but keep in mind I have changed it a bit since then:
http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/harts-120-3-4-starfire-expansion.178581/page-5

So the external box has 3 holes in the bottom. The main drain (left) has a gate valve to control the flow and is just a straight tube a few inches high. The emergency drain (right) is also just a straight tube a bit below the tank height but above the normal water level. I think you run a herbie/bean animal so I am guessing you know with herbie you decrease the flow in the main drain so the water in the overflow just barely rises and goes down the the 2nd hole. (Herbies as you know don't have the 3rd emergency drain).

So the 2nd drain, in my case the middle one, is a straight tube with 2 90 elbows on it so the opening faces down. The water level in the overflow is controlled by how long this tube is since in normal operation you have just a trickle of water down this tube. I have it set so the water drops just a little bit into the overflow box. Too much and you make nosie, not enough and you don't get a skimming action. It's not too hard to cut a couple tubes and fine tune the height.

Hope this makes sense.

[rickztahone]

Don't worry, it's not off topic! My tank journal thread and I enjoy talking about all sorts of tanks, the more conversation the better!

I checked out the other thread. If you don't want bulkheads how are you going to plumb the return? I have two bulkheads in the rear of the tank. You could put a flush screen on them if you wanted though.

For my external overflow I have tried to take pics before and they are never all that great, but I will try and describe it. Page 5 of my reef 2 reef build has some pics too, but keep in mind I have changed it a bit since then:
http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/harts-120-3-4-starfire-expansion.178581/page-5

So the external box has 3 holes in the bottom. The main drain (left) has a gate valve to control the flow and is just a straight tube a few inches high. The emergency drain (right) is also just a straight tube a bit below the tank height but above the normal water level. I think you run a herbie/bean animal so I am guessing you know with herbie you decrease the flow in the main drain so the water in the overflow just barely rises and goes down the the 2nd hole. (Herbies as you know don't have the 3rd emergency drain).

So the 2nd drain, in my case the middle one, is a straight tube with 2 90 elbows on it so the opening faces down. The water level in the overflow is controlled by how long this tube is since in normal operation you have just a trickle of water down this tube. I have it set so the water drops just a little bit into the overflow box. Too much and you make nosie, not enough and you don't get a skimming action. It's not too hard to cut a couple tubes and fine tune the height.

Hope this makes sense.
I'm use to the Bean Animal setup. It is what I am running on my 75g and I would like to do the same for this upcoming tank. You can see it in my signature actually if you want to go take a look. If you check out post #27 (Direct link (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?120637-75g-and-40g-sump-finally-done!-Bean-Animal-overflow&p=1173767&viewfull=1#post1173767)) you will see that I have a full setup on all 3 lines, that means elbows, caps and all for the sake of uniformity. I would not like for the plumbing to show on the upcoming tank however, which is why I asked how you controlled the height. I am thinking that if I put an external box to make it deep enough so that the plumbing would be hidden so that you cannot see the plumbing when you see the tank head on. I hope that makes sense?

Lastly, I hadn't really thought of the return actually! lol. I thought I might modify a return line and connect it somehow to a lily pipe return and depend on a wavemaker for flow rather than the filter/pump itself

[Hart24601]

If you have the space behind the tank and in the overflow I much prefer going through the bottom of the overflow. You can hide all the plumbing like I have it and imo it's a better system as you have greater flexibility. Unless you don't have the space and have to run the overflow bulkheads from the side. You can get rid of the T's. Really herbie and BA all are the same idea with the BA having an emergency hole.

Don't get me wrong, where you have an internal coast to coast overflow and need side bulkheads there is nothing better, but if you have a proper external overflow it wastes space and isn't really the best option IMO. Although the differences between the full siphon trickle tube designs are all pretty similar.

[Hart24601]

Not sure if that made sense... So if you have an internal overflow BA is a great choice as you must go though the back of the tank. If you build a proper external overflow - so the glass is notched and there is an box off the back of the tank you want to have the bulkheads in the bottom of that box. Less bends, better flow, can hide plumbing. Wouldn't want to do a true BA off external box and have it stick out and more plumbing bends. If that makes sense.

[rickztahone]

Not sure if that made sense... So if you have an internal overflow BA is a great choice as you must go though the back of the tank. If you build a proper external overflow - so the glass is notched and there is an box off the back of the tank you want to have the bulkheads in the bottom of that box. Less bends, better flow, can hide plumbing. Wouldn't want to do a true BA off external box and have it stick out and more plumbing bends. If that makes sense.

It does. On my 75g I have a setup almost exactly as yours, only difference is that I have an internal, close to coast to coast that feeds in to the rear external box and I have my bulkheads at the bottom.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/rickztahone/DSC03683_zps1vs31ouu.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/rickztahone/DSC03686_zpsx64xoxla.jpg
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=88327&d=1436647743

[Hart24601]

Oh yea! Sorry I missed that. Why have the caps on there? I thought about using them, but wanted to try how I have it now just for looks and found it worked great without noise without those t cap fittings.

[rickztahone]

Oh yea! Sorry I missed that. Why have the caps on there? I thought about using them, but wanted to try how I have it now just for looks and found it worked great without noise without those t cap fittings.

for a couple of reasons, first, I thought that they were integral to the whole Bean Animal setup. Keep in mind that I had never had a sump or an overflow of any kind. I went off schematics and didn't want to shortcut anywhere. With that being said, I like the uniformity that it brings having them all look the same. Also, I wanted them to be easily accessible to clean. In hindsight, they can be clean just as well without the full setup since these aren't glued down to the bulkhead since they are under water pressure. So I guess my answer is, I did it already and I'd rather leave it as is since it is working perfectly for me. However, with the new build, I may have to employ your technique in order to hide the plumbing because again, I want it to be a super clean setup.

Edit: I just remembered why! In the original Bean Animal setup it says to do the full design because the lines are glued down because it uses plumbing on the inside, and the outside plumbing needs to be glued for safety. The caps are there for servicing. In my setup I wouldn't need it, but again, I already did it, lol. I may change it down the line. Not a huge deal.

[Hart24601]

Makes sense. I was just wondering and it was probably a really good idea to follow it exactly the 1st time! Plumbing sumps and overflows is confusing at best! Mine is just pressed together too, and two little fishes nano mag is great for cleaning sump lines.

[Jack L]

my tank came with a durso with mufflers
i redid it to be herbie, LOVE the difference from a noise perspective it is actually quieter than the 10 gallon q tanks little HOB filter

in order to silence the water into the overflow i have the drain top and E pipe top, very close and very high, so not much room for fluctuation. before balance fails..a little too much and e pipe gurgles or a little low and drain flushes air

i should have done a gate valve though like you did in pic, not a ball valve, resistance from plugging filter socks changes the flow rate. a ball valve is hard to fine tune.

i also simplified all the fancy connections...from 8 connected pieces to 2 flex pipes...but it was a lot of fiddling to land on this

[Jack L]

Yes, always a risk with rimless although some fish are much more likely to jump. It also helps the tank level a couple inches below the rim. With all the cover the discus just dart to plants now and not frantic like before, so fingers crossed!


Many folks put a clear mesh frame on rimless for jumpers, but I have not had many issues personally, although I do avoid jumpers.

just watch, i had a D launch out of tank and get warmed up on the LED light bar while i was reaching in the tank for something the other day

[Jack L]

Glueing was really pretty easy, but I have done that so much with the reef I had plenty of practice and it only took a few minutes once I decided on placement.

Yea I have calmed down with them, lol.

Still running the purigen with the other filter media.

i put mine back in after after done doing ich treatments. how dark to you let it get before you remove?

[Jack L]

Thanks for the kind words, although it's not my original plan I do think it looks pretty nice and the couple of people I have had over they seem to like it more with plants too. Now I just have to keep them looking nice!!!

I do hope that no one reading this thought I was really serious about making discus smoothies... I just had to blow off a little steam! Thanks for the help, I am sure I will need more help in the future.

i'll be curious to see how they do. keeping plants seems harder than fish IME.

i doubt people took you serious, but the hobby can be pretty flipping frustrating sometimes!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BQFv83QJ2Y

[Hart24601]

I hope the plants do ok, I do expect some die-off as I suspect they were grown above water, but I don't know 100%. They are easy species and I have had luck with java fern before, which is nice since I like it so much!

I do expect to have a discus or two that decide to carpet surf at some point. I don't like it, but I accept the risk.

I let the purigen get pretty dark. But now that the driftwood has been in there a while there isn't as much to absorb, but in other fw tanks that don't get the most love I have had it turn almost black with enough time, so I have to tell myself to leave the purigen in the discus tank longer and not mess with it!

[rickztahone]

Java fern is super hardy and will do fine in your tank.

[Hart24601]

Quick update. I ended up selling 3 of the leopard snakeskins to a friend locally (ok, a "friend" though a local reef club) who really wanted some snakeskins and picked up 5 3" fire red discus from Hans. Got them in yesterday, and they are fantastic looking. Even at 3" they have so much color. Now the tank has plants I wanted some brighter reds to pop with the green plants but couldn't do the $$$ for 4" again. They will be in QT for a while while I bulk them up, but they are eating well and active. I initially didn't want solid red since there are reef fish like flame angels that are red, but with the green plants and after looking at them more the red hues on discus are mixed and I really like them.

[rickztahone]

Quick update. I ended up selling 3 of the leopard snakeskins to a friend locally (ok, a "friend" though a local reef club) who really wanted some snakeskins and picked up 5 3" fire red discus from Hans. Got them in yesterday, and they are fantastic looking. Even at 3" they have so much color. Now the tank has plants I wanted some brighter reds to pop with the green plants but couldn't do the $$$ for 4" again. They will be in QT for a while while I bulk them up, but they are eating well and active. I initially didn't want solid red since there are reef fish like flame angels that are red, but with the green plants and after looking at them more the red hues on discus are mixed and I really like them.

Awesome that you QT'd. That must be your reefer discipline kicking in! Can't wait to see the new group in there.

[Hart24601]

Awesome that you QT'd. That must be your reefer discipline kicking in! Can't wait to see the new group in there.

Haha, yea... I still have nightmares about spending hours, really a full day, to tear down the reef to catch fish and treat them!

[Jack L]

I hope the plants do ok, I do expect some die-off as I suspect they were grown above water, but I don't know 100%. They are easy species and I have had luck with java fern before, which is nice since I like it so much!

I do expect to have a discus or two that decide to carpet surf at some point. I don't like it, but I accept the risk.

I let the purigen get pretty dark. But now that the driftwood has been in there a while there isn't as much to absorb, but in other fw tanks that don't get the most love I have had it turn almost black with enough time, so I have to tell myself to leave the purigen in the discus tank longer and not mess with it!

IME
Java fern is tough
but grows slow
and does not not do well with temps of 90ish, at that temp it turned black and melted

so if you have the need to jack up the heat.... it would be easy to separate them out as you have them all on a rock

[Hart24601]

here we go:

91333

[Hart24601]

The little guys continue to do well and are eating better than the larger ones in the main tank. Some are showing a good deal of black on the fins. Not sure what to make of it, but they are eating and look good so the one guy just might have black tipped fins.

[Debow]

I too have this happening to 4 of my fish my yellows and my reds/orange. I am curious too.
91543

[Hart24601]

Wow, almost exactly like that!

[Debow]

Ya, and it is only on those 4 fish my blues are 100% fine. Here is one of my blues with no black at all.
91544

[Hart24601]

I was thinking today... always scary I know.

My apex DOS waterchanger I have been simplifying the setup and am currently at a float valve in a brute can that the pump feeds from. I originally had a powerhead in the brute and kept it open, but nasties got in there so I took the powerhead out and covered it. I didn't see any changes in pH or other effects so no worries. I do have the water pass through a sediment filter and carbon block 1st, but anyway...

So I was thinking at this point why not just run the line from the carbon block straight to the tank and just do a regular drip system? Then I can sell that expensive pump. Really nothing changes but I can control the amount of water added. I was limited to 60g by the DOS, but I can do any amount with the drip. I even have a backup float valve to install in the sump as the highwater shutoff if the drain gets blocked.

So I installed the drip line last night. Much easier to setup and run. I am now adding 120g (~300ml/min) from the drip line which gives me around a 67% change per day. I am also going to install a solenoid for yet another backup. I can use the sump high water float and the apex breakout box to turn on a line blocking solenoid. For $30 can't hurt to have another prevention device.

[strawberryblonde]

Wow, almost exactly like that!

It only happens with pigeon blood discus. Sometimes it's inevitable due to the breeding stock and other times it can be caused by the fish trying to blend in with its surroundings. In particular, dark substrates and dark backgrounds can amplify the black halo on the fins. I've had some PB's with a very black fins and others with no black at all. And yep, my background is black. I don't find it all unattractive though. =)

[Hart24601]

That is interesting. I don't think it looks bad, it is kind of neat in a way, just unexpected. Looking at the poster included in my order of the adult fish I guess there is black on the fins, just didn't notice it.

[Hart24601]

Since I have the new drip system I talked about and adding around 120g per day I wanted to run some numbers. With 110g system adding 120g is not quite 110% change, but since it's a drip the equivalent amount changed per day is 67% or around 44g per day that it's less efficient than if I was doing a single waterchage (of course I can't do a 120g W/C in a 110 system...). Our water rate is a bit under $3.50 per 1000g so the total water cost is around $13/month. The reduction in efficiency is around $4.50 per month. So if I was doing all one large batch waterchange I would be saving 4.50 a month, but I would lose some of that with having to heat the holding container which probably has less thermal efficiency than my main tank and would require more space and equipment.

Not saying it's the right way to go, but nice to have the option. Personally it's worth 4.50 a month to me! Remember I do siphon all the detritus off the bottom everynight or so, but it takes about 2 gallons is all off the starboard and the water entering goes through the 1st 2 stages of a RO system - the carbon block and the sediment filter. And I sold the DOS for $300, so that is always nice to free up some cash. I am sure I will spend it on discus food, these guys really go through some food.

[rickztahone]

Since I have the new drip system I talked about and adding around 120g per day I wanted to run some numbers. With 110g system adding 120g is not quite 110% change, but since it's a drip the equivalent amount changed per day is 67% or around 44g per day that it's less efficient than if I was doing a single waterchage (of course I can't do a 120g W/C in a 110 system...). Our water rate is a bit under $3.50 per 1000g so the total water cost is around $13/month. The reduction in efficiency is around $4.50 per month. So if I was doing all one large batch waterchange I would be saving 4.50 a month, but I would lose some of that with having to heat the holding container which probably has less thermal efficiency than my main tank and would require more space and equipment.

Not saying it's the right way to go, but nice to have the option. Personally it's worth 4.50 a month to me! Remember I do siphon all the detritus off the bottom everynight or so, but it takes about 2 gallons is all off the starboard and the water entering goes through the 1st 2 stages of a RO system - the carbon block and the sediment filter. And I sold the DOS for $300, so that is always nice to free up some cash. I am sure I will spend it on discus food, these guys really go through some food.

Yes they do! They are greedy little pigs. If something works for you, keep doing it until it doesn't work any more. Not saying it will eventually stop working for you, just saying that if it is what is more efficient for you, keep doing it until there is a problem.

[Hart24601]

I decided to try raising the temp of the tank to see if there was any change in the fish appetite. I was at 82 and over past few days I have gone to around 84.5. There has been a night and day change in the fish, more active, don't hide at feeding time and generally just out more. Wasn't quite the difference the plants made, but really close. I am extremely pleased with the change.

[Jack L]

I decided to try raising the temp of the tank to see if there was any change in the fish appetite. I was at 82 and over past few days I have gone to around 84.5. There has been a night and day change in the fish, more active, don't hide at feeding time and generally just out more. Wasn't quite the difference the plants made, but really close. I am extremely pleased with the change.

i have done that too and it seemed to help, actually higher, 86 and they ate, then backed down to 84

[Hart24601]

That is interesting. And happy Halloween!

I was really surprised at the change since so many members keep discus at 82. I might try 86 for a couple days, but don't want to stress the other fish too much.

[Jack L]

That is interesting. And happy Halloween!

I was really surprised at the change since so many members keep discus at 82. I might try 86 for a couple days, but don't want to stress the other fish too much.

it depends on what you read here and elsewhere, but when young seemed like many keep higher, and 82 is min for Ds

happy halloween back

[Jack L]

had this note saved

"We raise all our discus fry in 85 to 86 F or 30 C tap water from Lake Ontario.

The warmer water increases the metabolism of the young fish; they eat, develop

and grow better. As the discus fry become young adults (8 to 10 months of

age), I back the temperature off to 84 - 85F or 29 C. I do not recommend

keeping discus below 84 F or 29C. "

http://www.archersdiscus.com

He referenced the late Jim Quarles, who provided me some of the best Ds i have seen so i saved his page ; )

[Jack L]

noticed something else of possible interest to you on his site

A final thought on lighting
When you first walk into the discus room they should recognize you immediately, coming to the top begging for food, if this doesn't happen you may have to much light on the aquarium, they can't see out and see you.

Let's for a second place ourselves in their situation.
If you stand in a brightly lit room and look out the window on a dark night, your vision is very restricted, other than possibly some dark shadows? However, once you turn the outside light on, your vision improves dramatically as the shadows disappear. Lowering the light in their room (the aquarium) and increasing the light where you are, allows them to see you, in their extended environment, and it's not so scary for them. Result Happier, stress free discus.

Discus are very curious animals - if all they see is dark shadows, they won't bond with you, they become stressed and skittish, hiding in the back of the tank, huddled together, feeling threatened by the unknown which ultimately leads to stress and disease.

Customers are always surprised at how relaxed my fish are; allowing me to reach in and stroke their fins, not spooked at all by the approach of numerous people, which has a lot to do with bonding, trust and the ability for them to see into our world.

[Hart24601]

Cool! Thanks for the information. The temperature sure made a drastic difference. I bumped it up to 86.5 but I don't see a change over the 85ish range so I will go back down after a couple of days. The lights right now are really quite dim, Kessil's are not all that strong (in the reef world) and these are running at the minimum output. They just look brighter in the photos as I have to play with exposure of the lights. They do create hard shadows though.

[Debow]

Question? I was thinking about getting the kessil a160we and was wondering how many you think I would need for my 8' tank? I know they state 24" spread so I would need 4 but think I could get away with 3 of them hung 8" from the top ? Would the spread widen?

[Hart24601]

I will measure everything when I get home, but I think 3 would be fine. 2 seem like overkill for my tank, but just one has too much light spill outside the tank to give even tank coverage, but only by a small amount - I didn't know how large the spread would be on them. Raising the lights increases spread a great deal with these lights. I will update when I measure how far above the waterline I have them.

[Debow]

Thanks!

[Hart24601]

My lights are just about 7" over the waterline, so at 8" I don't think you would have any trouble covering your tank. I would sure try 3 and play with them before ordering 4!

[Hart24601]

Several days later fish still responding well to the increased temperature. Almost all of them come to the front when feeding now although still have a couple shy ones. They seem to be the most fond of spitting food out, but at least it's something! Temp has been at 86-87, I will keep it there for a while longer and I think try 84 for long term. 82 just didn't seem to cut it with them.

[rickztahone]

Several days later fish still responding well to the increased temperature. Almost all of them come to the front when feeding now although still have a couple shy ones. They seem to be the most fond of spitting food out, but at least it's something! Temp has been at 86-87, I will keep it there for a while longer and I think try 84 for long term. 82 just didn't seem to cut it with them.

84+ definitely stimulates appetite due to a faster metabolism. You don't want to stay too high long term because if they get some kind of bacterial infection, you will lose them super fast.

[Hart24601]

Sounds good, I will drop it down in the next few days. I just want to make sure they are all doing well 1st. There are two of them that still don't come up to eat when I approach, but the rest do now. I can tell now the one with the demon eye is blind in the left eye. He will run for food but only after the reflection if he is on the blind side, so I make sure to get between him and the glass so he can find food with his good eye.

[Hart24601]

Ordered some live blackworms. Should be interesting, I am going to use a 20g L to keep them with a container on the top of it that gets water pumped into it.