What Are Bioload and Biomass and Why They Are Important

[afriend]

Many people who are new to keeping discus assume that since the water parameters (Ph, TDS, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate) are all normal, and the water appears crystal clear, they make the mistake of thinking that the water is healthy. It may be for some other types of fish, but not discus unless the water is also biologically clean. How to keep the water biologically clean, and why this is critical for healthy discus is the purpose of this post.

Assuming that the tank has a well established bio-filter (which maintains ammonia, and nitrite levels at zero), the next most important water quality consideration is bioload and biomass resulting from food fed to the fish. Food contains organic compounds that are not toxic to the fish, however two undesirable affects result. First, there are bacteria that feed on the organic compounds and this results in other compounds that are toxic. This process is called decomposition and is very common in nature as evident by the foul smell of a dead animal or decaying vegetation. Second, pathogens (bacteria, viruses, and parasites) feed on the organic compounds and this permits them to multiply greatly. Note that there are many different types of bacteria in the tank, some are beneficial and some are not.

The recommendations I give in this post are mine alone. In some instances there is considerable differences on the SD Forum as to what these recommendations should be.

What Is Bioload and Biomass and How To Control Them

Bioload and biomass are affected greatly by the type of food and how it is fed to the fish. Food such as beef heart mix and unrinsed blood worms (and others) contribute more organic compounds than freeze dried or flake foods. When feeding the fish, do not overfeed and feed them more often with a little at a time, so that more of the food is actually eaten by the fish.

Bioload and biomass both result from food placed in the tank. The fish eat a portion of the food and the remaining part either falls to the bottom of the tank, or becomes suspended or dissolved in the water column. The portion eaten by the fish is partly decomposed by the digestive tract of the fish and is eliminited as feces. The bioload/biomass exists in several forms: uneaten food and feces, suspended/dissolved organic material in the water column, food and feces existing in the substrate, and food that collects on all surfaces in the tank. These are controlled by water changes or by syphoning material from the tank bottom.

Uneaten Food and Feces-- Feces contains food that is not completely decomposed and this usually collects with uneaten food on the bottom of the tank. If this material is neglected, it will collect into a very large biomass which will permit pathogens to multiply greatly as they feed on it. As further decomposition takes place, other undesirable compounds will be produced, and these will remain at the bottom or become suspended in the water column. The fish will ingest some of these pathogens when they feed at the bottom. Control of this is accomplished with tank maintenance by syphoning the bottom and this should be done on a regular basis. For adult discus, my recommendation is no less than twice a week. Juveniles require more frequent cleaning.

Suspended or Dissolved Organic Compounds-- These organic compounds exist in the water column as bioload. They originate from uneaten food and feces containing partially decomposed food, which is suspended or dissolved in the water column. Some of these organic compounds decompose in the water column. Water circulation transports this bioload to the substrate (it one exists) and to all other surfaces with in the tank including the walls, bottom, and anything else in the tank. Control of these organic compounds in the water column is accomplished with water exchange. My recommendation is not less than 30% daily for adults and greater amounts for juveniles.

Gravel or Sand Substrate-- Uneaten food and feces becomes trapped in gravel and this can accumulate into a huge biomass, even if one attempts to clean it regularly. Thats because much of the organic material will stick to the gravel thus making it impossible to remove it without also removing the gravel. Aslo, water circulation can be blocked in the gravel thus depriving the flow of oxygen which will stop the process of decomposition and this can result in even bigger problems. Thus my recommendation is to avoid gravel substrate completely. Sand is a better substrate than gravel because feces and food are less likely to become trapped. However the sand at the top still collects a biomass because food suspended in the water column will stick to the sand particles at the top and thus collect to form a biomass. This biomass will remain in the tank unless the sand is also removed. For these reasons, my recommendation is to go with a bare bottom tank, especially for anyone just beginning. A bare bottom tank is not only much cleaner, but also much easier to clean.

Food Collecting on All Surfaces in the Tank-- Another form of biomass occurs when suspended organic material in the water column collects on everything in the tank including walls, bottom, decorative items (artificial plants, rocks, etc..) and everything else in the tank. This form of biomass is different than gravel substrate because water circulation is available to allow the organic material to decompose. Control of this biomass is accomplished by removing the decorative items and cleaning them outside the tank, and then wiping the sides and bottom of the tank clean. This loosens the biomass and places it in suspension where water changes remove it from the tank. A pretty good test for assessing this biomass on decorative items is what I call the "sniff" test. Remove the item from the tank and place it close to the nose, a biomass will exhibit a foul odor. This test can be used as a pretty good indication of how often it should be cleaned. My recommendation for cleaning decorative items is to place them in a bucket and add a 8 to 1 mixture of water and hydrogen peroxide (3%). Hydrogen peroxide can be purchased in the Wal-mart pharmacy for under $1 per quart. It is non toxic and can be rinsed off after letting it set overnight in the bucket. Does a wonderful job of removing algae. My recommendation is to clean this form of biomass not less ten days for adult discus, and more often for juveniles.

Why Discus Require Biologically Clean Water

Many of the strains of discus available today have evolved in water with a low Ph for thousands of years. As such their immune systems have adapted to the quantity and types of pathogens (bacteria, viruses, and parasites) that are common to their native habitat. It turns out that water with higher Ph has not only many more pathogens, but also a different type. Thus the fish are much more sensitive to attack from unfamiliar pathogens. Young discus are especially vulnerable because the immune system adapts somewhat as they age. This is a very serious problem to the extent that many discus keepers recommend that fish from different suppliers should not be mixed due to the possibility that bacteria from one supplier will be harmful to discus from a different supplier, even though they are not harmful to the first.

Another important consideration results because discus are quite sensitive and become easily stressed. Stress can be caused by changes in water parameters (Ph, TDS, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate), temperature, lighting, motion outside the tank, pecking order, and other factors. Water that is not biologically clean also causes stress. In fact, whenever I notice that my fish are not acting normal, the first thing I do is to suspect something wrong with the water and immediately make a water change. The amount of aggression occurring between the fish can also be a sign of stress. My experience has shown that when I get all of the tank conditions correct and stabilized, that the aggression due to the pecking order is greatly reduced. When discus become stressed, they often become lethargic and refuse to eat. When this happens, their immune system becomes weakened and they are much more subject to attack from pathogens.

[cedar]

wow! I would like to say as a newbie that this is very informative! :)

[Noranni]

:thumbsup: This is extremely informative to the beginner. This takes on another level of consideration for my tank. It makes me wonder if I've been doing this all wrong. I am curious about what some of the other seasoned hobbyists think of this post.

[rabascal]

Thanks a lot for all the information that makes me understand better why that extreme water concern with discus and not with Frontosas and Tropheus just to mention some.
But I would like to ask the following. There are very good filtration this days like canisters filters or in my case I use sumps with plenty of mechanical filtartion. Based on what I read from you, even with some very good mechanical filtration and very diligent feeding and cleaning, this bioload/biomass has to be eliminated with water changes, right?

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.
Rodrigo.

[afriend]

Thanks a lot for all the information that makes me understand better why that extreme water concern with discus and not with Frontosas and Tropheus just to mention some.
But I would like to ask the following. There are very good filtration this days like canisters filters or in my case I use sumps with plenty of mechanical filtartion. Based on what I read from you, even with some very good mechanical filtration and very diligent feeding and cleaning, this bioload/biomass has to be eliminated with water changes, right?

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.
Rodrigo.

The bottom line is that large water changes are necessary, especially for younger fish since the immune system is not as well developed. In my case, I have adult fish (6" +) and my water exchange is 30% daily. Tank cleaning and maintenance is also necessary.

My filtration system:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?108835-Getting-the-WOW-Affect-with-Allot-Less-Work-Part-3-Water-Filtration-System

The use of Purigen in a reactor improves water quality even more, but I would not recommend reducing water change when using it.

Hope this is useful for you.

Paul

[plantman3]

Recently set up a 225 discus aquarium, with a large wet/dry filter and refugium. My water specs are:
Nitrates: 0
Nitrites: 0
Ammonia: 0
Do I still have to make water changes with these readings? Thanks.

[afriend]

Recently set up a 225 discus aquarium, with a large wet/dry filter and refugium. My water specs are:
Nitrates: 0
Nitrites: 0
Ammonia: 0
Do I still have to make water changes with these readings? Thanks.

plantman3,

Somehow you missed the point of my post:


Many people who are new to keeping discus assume that since the water parameters (Ph, TDS, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate) are all normal, and the water appears crystal clear, they make the mistake of thinking that the water is healthy. It may be for some other types of fish, but not discus unless the water is also biologically clean. How to keep the water biologically clean, and why this is critical for healthy discus is the purpose of this post.

Assuming that the tank has a well established bio-filter (which maintains ammonia, and nitrite levels at zero), the next most important water quality consideration is bioload and biomass resulting from food fed to the fish. Food contains organic compounds that are not toxic to the fish, however two undesirable affects result. First, there are bacteria that feed on the organic compounds and this results in other compounds that are toxic. This process is called decomposition and is very common in nature as evident by the foul smell of a dead animal or decaying vegetation. Second, pathogens (bacteria, viruses, and parasites) feed on the organic compounds and this permits them to multiply greatly. Note that there are many different types of bacteria in the tank, some are beneficial and some are not.

Please don't make the same mistake I made several years ago thinking that I could get by with small water changes. It just simply does not work this way with discus.

Paul

[discuspaul]

Paul, this is an excellent contribution to the Stickies in the Discus Basis for Beginners Section ! Well done.

I believe the word 'bio-load' is usually considered, and used, by many to indicate solely the level of fish or invertebrates in an aquarium, as opposed to the entire family of living things, including pathogens and bacteria of all types, etc.

As such, it may not be the proper wording ( i.e. a misnomer) to simply indicate the number & size of tank 'animals' for purposes of indicating &/or calculating a proper ratio of fishes to be kept within a given tank's water volume.

Perhaps that indicator should be more appropriately referred to as the 'fauna-load', or something similar ?

[afriend]

Paul,

Yea, after thinking about it and looking up the terms, I generally agree with what your getting at. Hopefully it's not too confusing.

Thanks for your kind remarks.

Paul

[alron2]

I liked it the way afriend had it. I knew what he meant. jmo

Ron

[afriend]

I liked it the way afriend had it. I knew what he meant. jmo

Ron

Ron,

Glad you understood what I was driving at. Basically I took the liberty to define the terms bioload and biomass as follows: biomass refers to organic material that collects and accumulates into a mass until it is cleaned. For example the substrate, the bottom of the tank, or on the decorative items.

In general biomass plays a more significant role because this is where the majority of pathogens multiply and most of the decomposition takes place (producing other compounds that are toxic.) Biomass remains in place until it is removed during tank maintenance.

Bioload refers to the organic material suspended or dissolved in the water column and is removed during water changes.

Hope this helps and that I didn't confuse the issue by redefining the terms.

Paul

[discuspaul]

I liked it the way afriend had it. I knew what he meant. jmo

Ron

Perhaps I was misunderstood as to my meaning.
I wasn't suggesting that afriend's (Paul's) name for his commentary (he called BioLoad or BioMass) be changed, I was suggesting that perhaps the word 'bio-load' was not a proper wording to be used to describe only the community of fish & invertebrates one refers to when speaking only of the number of 'animals' that should be kept or not kept in a given volume of water, which appears to be a commonly applied nomenclature for that situation.

[Tony13]

Great read as others have said, helped make up my mind to go with bare bottom tank. I followed the link to afriend (Paul's) filter pictures and I have serious case of filter envy now:) holly cow what a set up. Paul if you read this what would you say to putting a FluvalFX6 on my 75 gallon tank?

[afriend]

Great read as others have said, helped make up my mind to go with bare bottom tank. I followed the link to afriend (Paul's) filter pictures and I have serious case of filter envy now:) holly cow what a set up. Paul if you read this what would you say to putting a FluvalFX6 on my 75 gallon tank?

Your decision to go with a bare bottom tank is a wise choice. After a year or so, then you can experiment with a sand substrate. Knowing the importance of filtration is also wise.

I don't know what your goals are, so I'm going to assume that you are intending to set up a filtration system similar to mine. Let me reiterate what I stated previously in the link that you are referring to. In order to duplicate the results that I have achieved, attention to detail is extremely important, and this means that you must have all of the elements accounted for including:

mechanical filtration
tank circulation
purigen reactor
water exchange
biological filtration
water TDS

Not only must all of these elements be present, but they must be sized and implemented properly. I would strongly recommend that you thoroughly investigate and plan this out ahead of time before proceeding. This system is not cheap or easy to mechanize, but the results are truly spectacular. The filtration system will automatically remove feces, eliminate algae and biomass, and remain pristine clean for a minimum of one month without any tank maintenance.

Here are my thoughts about the Fluval FX6:

Have never seen or used it, so my evaluation is based only on looking at the specs.

Pros: good flow rate, like the built in valves & pressure seal & pump & 10 ft head pressure. Extremely good reviews including how quiet it operates and the water change feature.

Cons: Only 325 sq in of filter area. You will need at least 504 sq in for a 75 gal tank with 7 adult discus. Probably does not filter to 25 micron level. You will need to have a separate purigen reactor.

Will be glad to assist you and answer questions if you go ahead with this project.

Paul

[Tony13]

Thanks Paul, currently i am in a high rise condo but planning on getting into a real house soon as my alimony is over in feb then i can set up a fish room, for now just something to tinker with so i am hoping to get 10 babies and grow them out and learn all the tricks of the hobby.So i have picked out my tank already the combo from marineland at petsmart for 399 I am hoping to pick it up next weekend and get the cycle started, I am still doing a little reading on the canister filters. One other issue is I want different colored fish but cant seem to get all the colors from one place and then I would have the issue of mixing fish from different breeders or dealers which is not a good thing as i have red here.
Tony

[afriend]

Thanks Paul, One other issue is I want different colored fish but cant seem to get all the colors from one place and then I would have the issue of mixing fish from different breeders or dealers which is not a good thing as i have red here.
Tony

One thing that I would recommend that you do NOT do is to buy your fish from your local fish store (LFS). They move fish in and out so much that I would NEVER consider taking the chance of getting fish that could contaminate my tanks. The SD forum has several good sponsors that can supply you with quality healthy fish. Two of them that I can highly recommend are Kennys and Hans. Be sure to QT all new arrivals for at least 4 weeks. Also, as a point of reference I have mixed Kennys and Hans fish together and have not experienced any problems doing so.

Paul

[Tony13]

Thanks Paul, i went up to Baltimore and saw hans's fish and then i saw kennys and Don who is a member on here and got me to get on the site has some really pretty reds. So I will probably get a few from each and grow them out.i will get a 10 gallon for quarantine and for emergencies.

[rickztahone]

Thanks Paul, i went up to Baltimore and saw hans's fish and then i saw kennys and Don who is a member on here and got me to get on the site has some really pretty reds. So I will probably get a few from each and grow them out.i will get a 10 gallon for quarantine and for emergencies.

Quarantine is not only for sick discus, but for incoming discus. Even if you trust your source, make sure you QT any incoming discus from your current group.

[afriend]

Quarantine is not only for sick discus, but for incoming discus. Even if you trust your source, make sure you QT any incoming discus from your current group.

Good point Rick. After rereading my post, I can understand how someone could misinterpret my statement. Thanks for the clarification.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Paul, i went up to Baltimore and saw hans's fish and then i saw kennys and Don who is a member on here and got me to get on the site has some really pretty reds. So I will probably get a few from each and grow them out.i will get a 10 gallon for quarantine and for emergencies.

Also a 10 gallon is too small for discus. Do at least a 20 but a 40 is better for a QT.

[Tony13]

Good point i will get one on the next dollar a gallon sale

[Homes770]

IS there a way to know what is the bio load in the tank like we do whit ammonia ?




Many people who are new to keeping discus assume that since the water parameters (Ph, TDS, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate) are all normal, and the water appears crystal clear, they make the mistake of thinking that the water is healthy. It may be for some other types of fish, but not discus unless the water is also biologically clean. How to keep the water biologically clean, and why this is critical for healthy discus is the purpose of this post.

Assuming that the tank has a well established bio-filter (which maintains ammonia, and nitrite levels at zero), the next most important water quality consideration is bioload and biomass resulting from food fed to the fish. Food contains organic compounds that are not toxic

The recommendations I give in this post are mine alone. In some instances there is considerable differences on the SD Forum as to what these recommendations should be.

What Is Bioload and Biomass and How To Control Them

Bioload and biomass are affected greatly by the type of food and how it is fed to the fish. Food such as beef heart mix and unrinsed blood worms (and others) contribute more organic compounds than freeze dried or flake foods. When feeding the fish, do not overfeed and feed them more often with a little at a time, so that more of the food is actually eaten by the fish.

Bioload and biomass both result from food placed in the tank. The fish eat a portion of the food and the remaining part either falls to the bottom of the tank, or becomes suspended or dissolved in the water column. The portion eaten by the fish is partly decomposed by the digestive tract of the fish and is eliminited as feces. The bioload/biomass exists in several forms: uneaten food and feces, suspended/dissolved organic material in the water column, food and feces existing in the substrate, and food that collects on all surfaces in the tank. These are controlled by water changes or by syphoning material from the tank bottom.

Uneaten Food and Feces-- Feces contains food that is not completely decomposed and this usually collects with uneaten food on the bottom of the tank. If this material is neglected, it will collect into a very large biomass which will permit pathogens to multiply greatly as they feed on it. As further decomposition takes place, other undesirable compounds will be produced, and these will remain at the bottom or become suspended in the water column. The fish will ingest some of these pathogens when they feed at the bottom. Control of this is accomplished with tank maintenance by syphoning the bottom and this should be done on a regular basis. For adult discus, my recommendation is no less than twice a week. Juveniles require more frequent cleaning.

Suspended or Dissolved Organic Compounds-- These organic compounds exist in the water column as bioload. They originate from uneaten food and feces containing partially decomposed food, which is suspended or dissolved in the water column. Some of these organic compounds decompose in the water column. Water circulation transports this bioload to the substrate (it one exists) and to all other surfaces with in the tank including the walls, bottom, and anything else in the tank. Control of these organic compounds in the water column is accomplished with water exchange. My recommendation is not less than 30% daily for adults and greater amounts for juveniles.

Gravel or Sand Substrate-- Uneaten food and feces becomes trapped in gravel and this can accumulate into a huge biomass, even if one attempts to clean it regularly. Thats because much of the organic material will stick to the gravel thus making it impossible to remove it without also removing the gravel. Aslo, water circulation can be blocked in the gravel thus depriving the flow of oxygen which will stop the process of decomposition and this can result in even bigger problems. Thus my recommendation is to avoid gravel substrate completely. Sand is a better substrate than gravel because feces and food are less likely to become trapped. However the sand at the top still collects a biomass because food suspended in the water column will stick to the sand particles at the top and thus collect to form a biomass. This biomass will remain in the tank unless the sand is also removed. For these reasons, my recommendation is to go with a bare bottom tank, especially for anyone just beginning. A bare bottom tank is not only much cleaner, but also much easier to clean.

Food Collecting on All Surfaces in the Tank-- Another form of biomass occurs when suspended organic material in the water column collects on everything in the tank including walls, bottom, decorative items (artificial plants, rocks, etc..) and everything else in the tank. This form of biomass is different than gravel substrate because water circulation is available to allow the organic material to decompose. Control of this biomass is accomplished by removing the decorative items and cleaning them outside the tank, and then wiping the sides and bottom of the tank clean. This loosens the biomass and places it in suspension where water changes remove it from the tank. A pretty good test for assessing this biomass on decorative items is what I call the "sniff" test. Remove the item from the tank and place it close to the nose, a biomass will exhibit a foul odor. This test can be used as a pretty good indication of how often it should be cleaned. My recommendation for cleaning decorative items is to place them in a bucket and add a 8 to 1 mixture of water and hydrogen peroxide (3%). Hydrogen peroxide can be purchased in the Wal-mart pharmacy for under $1 per quart. It is non toxic and can be rinsed off after letting it set overnight in the bucket. Does a wonderful job of removing algae. My recommendation is to clean this form of biomass not less ten days for adult discus, and more often for juveniles.

Why Discus Require Biologically Clean Water

Many of the strains of discus available today have evolved in water with a low Ph for thousands of years. As such their immune systems have adapted to the quantity and types of pathogens (bacteria, viruses, and parasites) that are common to their native habitat. It turns out that water with higher Ph has not only many more pathogens, but also a different type. Thus the fish are much more sensitive to attack from unfamiliar pathogens. Young discus are especially vulnerable because the immune system adapts somewhat as they age. This is a very serious problem to the extent that many discus keepers recommend that fish from different suppliers should not be mixed due to the possibility that bacteria from one supplier will be harmful to discus from a different supplier, even though they are not harmful to the first.

Another important consideration results because discus are quite sensitive and become easily stressed. Stress can be caused by changes in water parameters (Ph, TDS, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate), temperature, lighting, motion outside the tank, pecking order, and other factors. Water that is not biologically clean also causes stress. In fact, whenever I notice that my fish are not acting normal, the first thing I do is to suspect something wrong with the water and immediately make a water change. The amount of aggression occurring between the fish can also be a sign of stress. My experience has shown that when I get all of the tank conditions correct and stabilized, that the aggression due to the pecking order is greatly reduced. When discus become stressed, they often become lethargic and refuse to eat. When this happens, their immune system becomes weakened and they are much more subject to attack from pathogens.

[DJW]

There is a method used in microbiology to measure the number of bacteria per ml of water, called Heterotrophic Plate Count. Its a lab technique beyond the scope of the hobbyist, but it would be nice to use this method to test the benefit of purigen, to see if the DOC's collected in the beads are sequestered from bacterial decomposition.

[afriend]

IS there a way to know what is the bio load in the tank like we do whit ammonia ?

As mentioned above, it's not an easy measurement for the home hobbyist. However, there are indirect indications. Remove something that has been in the tank for awhile and give it the "sniff test" by holding it close to your nose. Decomposition (resulting from biomass) will result in a foul odor.

[afriend]

There is a method used in microbiology to measure the number of bacteria per ml of water, called Heterotrophic Plate Count. Its a lab technique beyond the scope of the hobbyist, but it would be nice to use this method to test the benefit of purigen, to see if the DOC's collected in the beads are sequestered from bacterial decomposition.

Your question regarding purigen and decomposition is an important one. SeaChem has a discussion board where people can pose questions about their products. They have professionals answer that are technically qualified in various fields of expertise. I recently posed this question to them, and the answer is that organic compounds absorbed by purigen do NOT decompose. I was pretty sure that this was the case because used purigen does not have a foul odor. What amazes me about purigen is the ability of the product to quickly absorb huge amounts of organic compounds in both suspended and dissolved forms. Since organic compounds play a very significant role in the health of discus, I believe that purigen will be used by an increasing number of people as they discover the benefits of the product.

On the subject of bacteria, one thing that I have done is to look at pathogens with the use of a microscope. Even though the water is crystal clear, it's amazing how much microscopic life exists in the water. Of course, not all of it is harmful.

Paul

[DJW]

Paul, I'm glad that you asked the Seachem technicians that question, it is a question that I have had as well. Fewer bio-decomposable compounds loose in the water means less biofilm and less feed for existing biofilm, which should directly improve the fishes exposure to bacteria. Pathogenic bacteria normally make up a very small portion of the overall population, but when present they tend to colonize existing biofilms, even though those biofilms are typically made up of relatively harmless bacteria.

I have spent many hundreds of hours looking at microbes through a scope, and I'm always amazed by the huge numbers of them that are buzzing around on all the surfaces in fish tanks, ponds and creeks.

[childofiam]

I found this article very helpful. Bio mass is one thing I had not heard of.

Richard

[geo57]

Sand is a better substrate than gravel because feces and food are less likely to become trapped. However the sand at the top still collects a biomass because food suspended in the water column will stick to the sand particles at the top and thus collect to form a biomass.

If food collects on the sand and causes a bio-load as you say, i would assume it will also happen on glass at the bottom of your tank. I know this is an old thread but i just have to say a bit of this logic is failed and faulty. Also when i clean my sand i usually vacuum up a bit of sand, leaving my bottom cleaner than a bare bottom tank. Unless your speaking facts it's all speculative, logic can be bent in many ways my friend.

[RogueDiscus]

Every time I do a water change, I wipe down the insides of the tank, including the bare bottom. Then I vacuum it as I drain the tank. I would think the bottom ends up cleaner than what you can achieve cleaning sand.

[geo57]

You think, I think, which is my point Rogue. I'm not saying I'm right ok, I'm saying we are talking according to our logic and what we believe to be true. However we could be wrong. If i take the top layer of my sand off, what males your bare bottom cleaner, that means I removed a layer of sand and left a clean bottom that has all dirt removed even part of the substrate. I'm just saying don't present your opinion as fact, it is what it is an opinion.

[Filip]

PFS sand that we use in our tanks is ussualy 0.3-0.8 mm of grain size .
Dirt and debris particles can be much smaller and finer size than sand and they get and collect deep inside the sand bed quite easily. You can easily check this , if you just give the sand a good stir with your hand . Your water will be filled with dirt and gunk if you try that .

[afriend]

Sand is a better substrate than gravel because feces and food are less likely to become trapped. However the sand at the top still collects a biomass because food suspended in the water column will stick to the sand particles at the top and thus collect to form a biomass.

If food collects on the sand and causes a bio-load as you say, i would assume it will also happen on glass at the bottom of your tank. I know this is an old thread but i just have to say a bit of this logic is failed and faulty. Also when i clean my sand i usually vacuum up a bit of sand, leaving my bottom cleaner than a bare bottom tank. Unless your speaking facts it's all speculative, logic can be bent in many ways my friend.

geo57,

If I were to use a sand substrate, I would suggest that you consider using a product produced by SeaChem called Purigen. Purigen (when used properly) will absorb huge amounts of organic material, thus assisting the task of reducing pathogens. How this is accomplished is explained in detail at my Homestead page here at Simply Discus. The link below will direct you to my page:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?372-Adult-Discus-Show-Tank-(afriend)-NW-Arkansas

I hope this will be helpful for you.

Paul

[geo57]

Hi Paul, to start with I use the best sand for aquariums that money can buy, I use national Geographic sand and I use white sand. Any thing and I mean anything shows up right away, and from what I have read and studied the only thing that will penetrate into the sand is oxygen. My tank is four foot deep, my arms are just over two foot long, no way i can stir with the hand lol. But I do come up with tools to do the same. I stir my sand up daily really, cause dirt and poop etc, show up so vividly I can't stand the look of it. When I stir my sand there is no gunk, I use a long siphon that I attach thick plastic picks at the end that protrude about two to three inches below the siphon, so that when they hit the sand i know I'mm close to pulling up sand, i just allow the debris to be pulled, then i rotate the siphon and stir that section of sand....waalaa clean. I use sand not because it looks better than BB, But because the fish love it. I agree it is more work to clean, but I do that for my fish. What I don't agree to is that bare bottom tank is cleaner, i think you can be just as clean with sand, a little more work but just as clean. I have done bare bottom before, as a matter of fact all my tanks use to be bare bottom...I just think fish like sand better.

[kim457]

Cons: Only 325 sq in of filter area. You will need at least 504 sq in for a 75 gal tank with 7 adult discus. Probably does not filter to 25 micron level. You will need to have a separate purigen reactor.

Paul

Hi Paul,

how do you determine what the sq in requirements are per discus? Also how do you determine how much a canister has in regards to sq in? (for example a 2217 Eheim?)

[afriend]

Hi Paul,

how do you determine what the sq in requirements are per discus? Also how do you determine how much a canister has in regards to sq in? (for example a 2217 Eheim?)

kim457,

I developed the requirements for my filtration system experimentally. Basically, I set it up by guessing at what was necessary to accomplish my goal and then modifying it until I got the desired results. My show tank is 100 gallons and contains ten adult discus. I ended up using two Inland pleated filters contained in a single canister filter. Each of the two pleated filters provides 30 square feet and filters down to 25 microns. Here's a picture of one of them:

https://www.marineandreef.com/Inland_Seas_25_Micron_30_sq_ft_p/ris02330.htm

Note that the manufacturer has provided data on the size and filtration capability.

My canister filter has a pressure gauge on it that measures the incoming water pressure. When the gauge begins to indicate an increase in pressure, I use this to determine when its time to service the filter. My goal was to create a filtration system that would provide at least one month of service without having to clean the filter. If I'm careful on what and how much I feed my fish, my experience has shown that the filter will last at least six weeks.

I reviewed the specs on an Eheim filter and was not able to determine how much filtration area they provide nor the level of filtration. Sorry I can't be of more help to you here.

Hope some of this is helpful.

Paul

[kim457]

Yep, thank you sir!

[Filip]

Hi Paul,

how do you determine what the sq in requirements are per discus? Also how do you determine how much a canister has in regards to sq in? (for example a 2217 Eheim?)

Quantifying the filtration needs is beyond our common science and knowledge Kim . There are just too many unknowns in this equation .One Example is that in the same tank under Same circumstances, if you feed BH 5 times a day you will have much bigger bioload than 1 dry feed per day in that same tank .And feeding is just one variable out of many more in this experiment :) .