I fed hormones to my fish. Outcome is amazing.

[walton321]

Hello folks. I think you may find this interesting. I always knew that alot of discus imported these days are artificially colored. Seems to me that many so-called "strains" are just juiced up versions of a base discus. I purchased some hormones in Asia over a decade ago but never had inclination to experiment with it. I've been out of the hobby for a long time. But now I'm back into it with a breeding pair of red discus. It was apparent that after a year of grow-out, the color of the red parents did not pass to their offspring. I took a few juveniles runts that had defects and fed them the hormone laced beefheart. I also bought an albino oscar just for the purpose of this experiment. As you can see below in the pictures, the outcome is pretty amazing. I've used color bits and astaxanthin powder in the past, but the only thing that turned red was my Aquaclear sponges. Seems like the only effective method to get bright colors is by using hormones.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c66/walton321/Discus/IMG_4074.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/walton321/media/Discus/IMG_4074.jpg.html)

Day 1, Day 10, 2 Months.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c66/walton321/Discus/IMG_4080.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/walton321/media/Discus/IMG_4080.jpg.html)

The control (before/after)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c66/walton321/Discus/IMG_4073.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/walton321/media/Discus/IMG_4073.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c66/walton321/Discus/IMG_4072.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/walton321/media/Discus/IMG_4072.jpg.html)

[FishFanMan]

Hey, they do that to the salmon I buy to eat. It's a nice orange color. Would I prefer they don't? Yes. Is it hormones or pigments? I doubt hormones have a shelf life of 10 years.

[pitdogg2]

Well whatever it was sure looks to of had a dramatic effect. A lot of those things in excess can cause all kinds of other problems like organ failure and blindness.

[JEP23]

Yea if that were true the worlds population of humans would be having chronic organ failures and blindness

[nc0gnet0]

given time to mature the fish on the left will color up.

[FishFanMan]

Why would you want to make those pretty yellow discus turn into those weird 2 tone variety?

[Filip]

given time to mature the fish on the left will color up.

Ive heard the same story.Growth hormones are most often given to young fish so that they can have the adult coloration much sooner than normal .At 4-5 months, when its time to sell them.
But given the time they will eventually aquire their genetic potential coloration,and that wold mean red as on third picture.
It affect overall fish health and breeding potential to some extent,i have no doubt in this.But how severe ? You cant tell.

[John_Nicholson]

In the long run it will normally screw your fish over. It is one of the reasons that some people think discus are hard to raise. They buy theirs from the LFG that are hormoned and their livers are already cooked. While they might recover from very minor exposure and long term or major exposure will end badly.

-john

[DISCUS STU]

Interesting that you would try this experiment but I'm not really sure why. Most people that are aware of this practice know that this will produce premature coloration in adolescent fish.

The affects I see in your fish are less dramatic than in most of the crappy Discus I see at some lfs's. Even so, historically hormone treating had it's place in developing Discus in the hobby. I had posted pictures and an article from a 1960 Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine were Dr. Eduard Scmidt-Focke, Discus pioneer, was able to get his wild caught Haraldi male to breed more effectively with the selective use of hormones. It was a great piece, but couldn't be posted here because of copyright considerations.

That aside, it's a despicable practice used by unscrupulous sellers to misrepresent their product, which are often sub par culls. The fish often suffer as a result as it very seriously affects their long term health, often makes them extremely aggressive even as juveniles, ultimately their colors fade, not to mentions other problems.

[walton321]

It is indeed an unscrupulous business practice. But unfortunately everyone is goo goo eye over wildly colored discus, and are willing to pay the higher price thinking they are new "strains". A term strain means genetic variety, but it is loosely used here, along with all the crazy names that sellers give to discus. In the end it drives up prices for everyone. The 4 affected fish are runts anyway. Some people would just kill them anyway. I take care of them just as good as I take care of the rest of the fish so they are living a good life. Alot more people make their fish suffer from diseases and lack of maintenance. I'm curious if anyone has been able to breed these red discus like mine, and offspring to have the same color when matured. I did it for awareness because it seems like hobbyists are turning a blind eye to it and breeders raking in more profits. But in any case this is ornamental fish trade whether one likes it or not.

[strawberryblonde]

Now I'm even more confused. At first I thought that you just didn't know that using hormones on your fish to produce vivid coloration is unscrupulous and harmful to the fish.

But in your last post you said that you DO know it, and that you choose to do it anyways because, if I'm reading that correctly "But in any case this is ornamental fish trade whether one likes it or not."

So are you planning to sell any of your hormone treated juvies? Is that what this is about? Are you looking for approval for what you're doing to you discus? Or maybe you thought that people would be thrilled to see that they can just feed hormone laced food to their discus in order to bring out bright red coloration?

Like I said, I'm confused by your posts and wondering what you hope to achieve by telling others that you are using hormones on your fish.

Oh and in case you're thinking that it's impossible to achieve bright red colors without the use of hormones or other color enhancing foods, here are pics of 3 of my discus. They were never fed any color enhancing additives at all:

90932

90933

90934

90935

2 of these discus produced offspring. None of the offspring were vividly colored for the first 4-5 months of life. By the 6 month they began to show strong red colors and as far as I know from the new owners of the offspring (The discus are now over 3 years old) the colors have never faded.

[John_Nicholson]

I see nothing wrong with doing experiments as long as the fish never leave your place. I once kept a couple of breeding pairs in 100% ro water for an extended time. I don't remember the exact time frame but somewhere between 12 and 24 months. By the end they were producing smaller ans smaller spawns with higher and higher rates of deformities. I simple culled all of the fry as the experiment went along. I wanted to see the effects of long term affects of really, really soft water would be. Experiments are how we figure things out.

-john

[John_Nicholson]

Oh and I have produced lots of fry out of Stendker reds that grew out to be jus as red as the parents. They were fed my beef heart mix.

-john

[walton321]

Yes this is an experiment to raise awareness. Those treated fish will be raise along with the untreated fish to see the long term affects. And since they are runts, they will be prevented from breeding. I do not plan to sell them as this is just a hobby. I only bought a few packets of this powder in a random fish store in when I visited Bangkok a long time ago, and I doubt they sell them openly anymore.

I'm also interested if anyone has breed the so-called Red Eagle or Rafflesia discus and what their offspring look like when matured. To me they just look like juiced up Checkerboard discus. Quite a price difference, and people are willing to pay the premium. Even within this "strain", the more color commands a higher grade/price. You can see why overseas exporters are creating these all these color variations. Whether it's true genetics or just a chemical enhancement, only the originator can confirm.

[pitdogg2]

I see nothing wrong with doing experiments as long as the fish never leave your place. I once kept a couple of breeding pairs in 100% ro water for an extended time. I don't remember the exact time frame but somewhere between 12 and 24 months. By the end they were producing smaller ans smaller spawns with higher and higher rates of deformities. I simple culled all of the fry as the experiment went along. I wanted to see the effects of long term affects of really, really soft water would be. Experiments are how we figure things out.

-john


well said John

[JEP23]

You guys are a tad narrow minded... If hormones were that bad, as i said people in the world would be suffering the same issues.. Why do you think kids mature so fast these days ? Its the hormones in the food... but you dont see us having liver failure and our eyes failing and what not

[rickztahone]

You guys are a tad narrow minded... If hormones were that bad, as i said people in the world would be suffering the same issues.. Why do you think kids mature so fast these days ? Its the hormones in the food... but you dont see us having liver failure and our eyes failing and what not

This is taking quite a turn from the OP I think. Getting in to discussions about world view medication vs. a single fish experiment is a bit far-fetched in my eyes.

Thank you for posting your experiment and as John says, sometimes that is something that has to be done, but lets please stay on topic before this thread turns in to something else.

Thank you.

[brewmaster15]

HI Walton,
I'm curious on a couple of things...first is what the "hormone" was that you used? and how much was used ? Also what do you feed your fish?

Generally speaking, a hormone thats effective on enhancing colors in a fish does that by tricking the fishes endocrine system into thinking its an adult. The hormone then causes a cascade of physiological changes to the fish depending on which hormone it is...which is why juvenile fish can start breeding so small in many cases...consider it like it causes premature aging of the reproductive system. The reason why the hormones enhance colors is because the fish is tricked into taking up pigments as if it were an adult. Basically what I am saying is they need pigments in their diet and need to be genetically capable of taking up and storing pigments . Treating with Hormones and seeing enhanced reds means reds were in their diet somewhere.. at least thats my understanding of how it works. Odds are given the right diet high in pigments, the right age and health, theres a good likihood your fish would have turned red on their own in good time. Hth.al

[walton321]

Hi Al, The packaging does not indicate the chemical compounds used. The letter R for red and B for blue pigmentation. There are some Thai writing on the back side to tell you how much to use. Basically one pack 5g for half kilo of food. In my case I just used the whole pack into one pound of beefheart along with krill and flakes. I'm just looking at some of the fish being imported as Flamma Rossa 3.5". How is that full red color possible at that size? My untreated juveniles are the same size and don't have any red at all. No disrepect to any resellers, but the supply side from overseas is up to fishy business.90945

[nc0gnet0]

The fact that there are different "hormones" for different colors, is very very odd, has me suspicious if they are in fact hormones at all, but rather just color enhancers. the most effective administration of hormones would be by injection iirc.

[Ryan]

The fact that there are different "hormones" for different colors, is very very odd, has me suspicious if they are in fact hormones at all, but rather just color enhancers. the most effective administration of hormones would be by injection iirc.

This is my thought, too. I'm wondering if this is something like re-packaged Carophyll Red/Yellow which are just synthetic color enhancers. As has been said, the fish would likely color up that way on its own given time, and fed typical prepared foods with natural or synthetic color enhancers (astaxanthin, etc.).

[John_Nicholson]

They look like the hormones that Anand got shipped in about 15 or 20 years ago. If so they were indeed hormones and depending on use can have a pronounced affect on breeding and life expectancy. He said the females exposed to it had really strange spawning cycles and never laid more than a small clutch. He had issues with the males also in terms of a low fertility rate if I remember correctly. Like most "experiments" that people do it has been done before. Here is something for people to think about. The exposure to this stuff will often affect the fertility of the fish when they mature. Look at the importers who are known for having fish that spawn easily and that will tell you a little about what happens to the fish when they are small.

-john

[brewmaster15]

5 grams per 1/2 kg food...
5 grams per 500 grams food
5000 mg per 500 grams food
50 mgs per 5 grams food.

Thats way too concentrated a dose to be hormones...my guess is its carophyll pigment or something like it. Maybe theres some hormone mixed in..but Pigment alone at that concentration would account for what you see walton...my best guess.

Hth,
AL

[pitdogg2]

Well whatever it was sure looks to of had a dramatic effect. A lot of those things in excess can cause all kinds of other problems like organ failure and blindness.

My comment came directly from this interview with Marc Weiss. He plainly states in it that in his experience too much will negatively longevity and organs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KkjagqH_5A

I think many here can agree.

[DISCUS STU]

It's unfortunate that the people that deliberately administer and sell fish that are juiced (subjected to hormones) can't receive commercial or legal repercussions as a result of their actions to deliberately misrepresent their product.

In most other spheres of commerce this would apply.

[walton321]

So getting back to one of my questions, how can an imported 3.5" Fiamma Rossa discus be fully developed with such a blazing red color at that size? According to people here, a discus of that size should be pale, the way my untreated fish are. But yet, it sells out in a snap at such an inflated prices.

[Eddie]

So getting back to one of my questions, how can an imported 3.5" Fiamma Rossa discus be fully developed with such a blazing red color at that size? According to people here, a discus of that size should be pale, the way my untreated fish are. But yet, it sells out in a snap at such an inflated prices.

What's a fiamma rossa? Lol

[Larry Bugg]

What's a fiamma rossa? Lol

You've been away too long Eddie, lol.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fiamma+rossa&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=476&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMIjfm3sva1yAIVRIwNCh1DdAui

[Eddie]

You've been away too long Eddie, lol.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fiamma+rossa&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=476&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMIjfm3sva1yAIVRIwNCh1DdAui

Oh you mean those red gold diamonds. Lol

[April]

I know a guy who was breeding discus and altum angels here..he had fry like crazy. even altums he just received from wild caught he had batches of fry. it turns out he had been hormoning . said he can get anything to breed. he didn't raise well though..a bunch of sick runted fry.
when the first spotted fish all started coming to north America we all got some. they were breeding at 4 inch practically out of the bags. we all lost them within the first year or less.
they were hormoned heavily to get the intense colours and spots. also eventually the spots turned into lines. red turqs. : )
more and more farms are now doing colour enhancing and less hormoning. some still do..but on my lists I get from the different countries they do state non hormoned or hormoned. these lists are for pet shop buyers.
unfortunately beginners go for the brightly coloured red discus. little brown and light yellow pigeons don't sell .
the thing with discus is patience. they will get their colours at about 10 months when they mature .
as for humans not being affected..id say most likely a lot of health issues come from the food we eat .

[bluelagoon]

What came to my mind was that those fish would have colored up naturally just by getting older.2 months coloring on a young fish can change a fear bit as they get more mature.

[CliffsDiscus]

Hi Al, The packaging does not indicate the chemical compounds used. The letter R for red and B for blue pigmentation. There are some Thai writing on the back side to tell you how much to use. Basically one pack 5g for half kilo of food. In my case I just used the whole pack into one pound of beefheart along with krill and flakes. I'm just looking at some of the fish being imported as Flamma Rossa 3.5". How is that full red color possible at that size? My untreated juveniles are the same size and don't have any red at all. No disrepect to any resellers, but the supply side from overseas is up to fishy business.90945

Those are CR5 for the Blue and CR6 for the Reds, they sell them on Road 39 in Bangkok. Your package is old usually in 2 weeks the Discus would be fully Red.
Also sold are what they call Super Red pellets and granule they will color the Discus up in one week.

CLiff

[Filip]

Those are CR5 for the Blue and CR6 for the Reds, they sell them on Road 39 in Bangkok. Your package is old usually in 2 weeks the Discus would be fully Red.
Also sold are what they call Super Red pellets and granule they will color the Discus up in one week.

CLiff

Sounds like you have try them Cliff,so if you stop feeding them will they remain red , or gradually pale . are you supposed to feed them only few weeks or constantly for them to remain colloured

[krislewis3]

What's a fiamma rossa? Lol


90987


The above photo is one of the fiamma-rossa's which I purchased in June of this year! Are you saying that it was hormon fed to look this way?

[Eddie]

90987


The above photo is one of the fiamma-rossa's which I purchased in June of this year! Are you saying that it was hormon fed to look this way?

Looks like a red gold diamond. I wouldn't say it was hormone fed at all.

[krislewis3]

What is the explanation as to why he's so brilliantly colored at 2.5"

[nc0gnet0]

What is the explanation as to why he's so brilliantly colored at 2.5"

He was fed color enhancers, not hormones, the two are vastly different. Prolonged use of hormones would be idiotic and harm the fish. That said I still believe the packages in question are not hormones at all, rather nothing more than potent color enhancers. As Al said, hormones fool the fish into thinking the fish is reaching sexual maturity, the time in which the fish begins to display color vibrantly.

Picture a pre-adolescent teen. When he or she starts to reach puberty their pituitary gland starts to produce hormones. If we inject a 8 year old boy with testosterone, he will begin to grow facial hair etc. This is what hormones is doing to a fish.

The fact the packages come in both a blue and red version is a very strong clue as to what it actually is, color enhancers, not hormones. A true hormone would be the same, regardless of the color of the fish. The only minute possibility is that the packages contain both, color enhancers and hormones, but even this is still not very likely IMO. A dry form feedable hormone with a shelf life of 10 years would be pretty pricey. This is most likely nothing more than a bit of false advertising on the part of the retailor.

[Eddie]

What is the explanation as to why he's so brilliantly colored at 2.5"

Selective breeding

[walton321]

At the end of the day, regardless of whether they are true hormones or dyes, people are driving up demand for artificially colored fish (not just discus). The creators of all the colorful discus blew their own covers for releasing fully colored pre-juvenile fish for sale. For people to call them "strains" is misleading, because it is not genetics nor hereditary at all. I know alot of people are in denial that their beautiful fish are not really that colorful without enhancers. There are still alot of beautiful unmolested discus out there like snow whites, albino cobalts, blue turquoise, wilds, etc.. But the sale of all these crazy-named juiced up discus has gotten out of hand along with the inflated prices. BTW here's a current picture of the female (left fish in first post) a year later. 90997

[nc0gnet0]

At the end of the day, regardless of whether they are true hormones or dyes, people are driving up demand for artificially colored fish (not just discus). The creators of all the colorful discus blew their own covers for releasing fully colored pre-juvenile fish for sale. For people to call them "strains" is misleading, because it is not genetics nor hereditary at all. I know alot of people are in denial that their beautiful fish are not really that colorful without enhancers. There are still alot of beautiful unmolested discus out there like snow whites, albino cobalts, blue turquoise, wilds, etc.. But the sale of all these crazy-named juiced up discus has gotten out of hand along with the inflated prices.

Ok, this is way over the top, perhaps a little bit of truth sprinkled with a whole lot of BS.

[Ryan]

At the end of the day, regardless of whether they are true hormones or dyes, people are driving up demand for artificially colored fish (not just discus). The creators of all the colorful discus blew their own covers for releasing fully colored pre-juvenile fish for sale. For people to call them "strains" is misleading, because it is not genetics nor hereditary at all. I know alot of people are in denial that their beautiful fish are not really that colorful without enhancers. There are still alot of beautiful unmolested discus out there like snow whites, albino cobalts, blue turquoise, wilds, etc.. But the sale of all these crazy-named juiced up discus has gotten out of hand along with the inflated prices.

I think you're conflating hormones and color enhancers. Almost every commercial fish food on the market contains color enhancers, so any prepared foods you get are going to "juice" up your wild or turquoise discus in the same way they would any other variety.

Having said that, there are plenty of very red and very blue discus out there which do color up at sexual maturity and hold their color. Genetics do play a part in that. Fish are being selectively bred for their potential to color up, their potential to be clean (in pigeon types), their potential to have certain patterns... it's how you go the classic varieties you listed. At some point in the past, turquoise and red turquoise discus were probably considered abominations compared to wilds. But those fish were selectively bred for a specific set of traits, and those traits were fixed to become the strains we know today. That is still going on with breeders around the world.

What a lot of breeders do is feed synthetic astaxanthin or other color enhancers in food to young fish a couple weeks before sale so that the fish intensify. They may fade a bit if you stop feeding foods that contain enhancers, but they should color up again as they mature and their adult coloration comes in. However, I've watched a lot of yellow fish turn orange because people feed commercial foods that are loaded with astaxanthin (either natural or synthetic) and they don't even realize it. It's in almost every ingredient list. So it's all probably a moot point unless you go out of your way to avoid them.

[Michael A]

is discus pellet contains hormon? I feed mine with "Hikari Discus Bio Gold". What is the long term effect of prolonged hormon use to the fish?

[Willie]

No, discus pellets do not contain hormone.

[Michael A]

glad to know that im not feeding my fish hormone.

[smsimcik]

Man, how I miss the experienced discus people on here like Rick, Ryan and John Nicholson. These old threads are great. Thank goodness Willie is still around. Lol.

[seanyuki]

Ryan & John are still active on Simply Discus Facebook page and Eddie is back into discus too.


Man, how I miss the experienced discus people on here like Rick, Ryan and John Nicholson. These old threads are great. Thank goodness Willie is still around. Lol.

[Willie]

Man, how I miss the experienced discus people on here like Rick, Ryan and John Nicholson. These old threads are great. Thank goodness Willie is still around. Lol.

Thanks, Steve. I need to reach out to John Nicholson - it's been a while.

[CliffsDiscus]

is discus pellet contains hormon? I feed mine with "Hikari Discus Bio Gold". What is the long term effect of prolonged hormon use to the fish?

I test fish food for several manufacture before they are on the market and most don't have testosterone.


Cliff

[pablos]

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19476337.2018.1475423