How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed

[Luke in Phoenix]

What is the most important component to growing out large fry? Water changes or feeding quantity and schedule?
These are pictures of a batch of fry that I just grew out born on 9-4. After 53 days all of them were over 2.5" with a few reaching over 3" and very healthy.

That's pretty good right? I'll post next what I did after you see these pictures.

[Luke in Phoenix]

9156591566915679156891569

[Luke in Phoenix]

I offered these fry a constant or pretty close to constant food supply of baby brine shrimp and then a homemade beefheart / seafood mix. They pretty much ate constantly.

With this much food, nitrate becomes a problem so I installed an algae scrubber. Nitrate levels were kept between 0 and 30 ppm with only one 30% water change the entire 53 days the fry were growing out.

Conclusions: Only 1 water change of 30% for 2 months is pretty crazy but these fry grew outstandingly. A constant food source is more important than water changes if you can keep nitrate levels low. I also have a large UV sterilizer on the system but I haven't experimented with and without it.

Before I get killed about the importance of water changes, notice that this thread is in the "laboratory" or experiment section. I am only hoping for a non-emotional debate and to find out if other people have done this same thing.

[alcastro]

Did you have like a 1,000 gallon tank lol

[Luke in Phoenix]

Did you have like a 1,000 gallon tank lol

LOL, I wish but my wife would probably leave me. Tough decision... just kidding!

It's a 40 gallon breeder tank and an 80 gallon display tank both connected to a 20 gallon sump.

[alcastro]

Was just curious because you did not post it, was their any illness with the fry

[Luke in Phoenix]

Was just curious because you did not post it, was their any illness with the fry

Good question. 0 signs of illness. The only thing I noticed was some planaria.
The breeder tank and my display tank are actually plumbed to same sump (share the same water) and all fish are healthy as ever with great color. no hiding, eating great, etc...

[dprais1]

can you get some pics of the algae scrubber? also how many fry, from the pics it looks like less than 12?

regardless, very good on many levels

[Filip]

Interesting thread.
Can we see pics from parents?
Also more info and pics from algae scrubber.

[Luke in Phoenix]

TDS = 310, Temperature 84, KH = 3
I grew out 9 total fry in this setup. I just moved the Discus fry into another tank and put the parents back into the breeder tank.

These are the parents today back in the breeder tank, still 0 additional water changes as of today. They continued to lay eggs every 1-1.5 weeks along with 2 additional pairs in the display tank that also laid eggs on a schedule.
91574

[Luke in Phoenix]

These Red Dragon discus are one of the other pairs that I put into breeder (I split the breeder tank with a divider). You can see the eggs they just started laying today.
91575

[Luke in Phoenix]

Interesting thread.
Can we see pics from parents?
Also more info and pics from algae scrubber.

This is the algae scrubber in the sump below the display and breeder tanks. Very simple "upflow" algae scrubber setup only cost me a couple bucks plus a led light. You can see the led light that I put against the side of the glass to shine on a piece of mesh. There is an air stone below the mesh that provides more waterflow over the mesh screen. I also lined the middle sump chamber with mesh and put a light above the sump for extra light. This keeps the nitrate below 30ppm and usually close to 0. At one point, the fry and display tank was consuming over 10 cubes of beef heart daily.
I know there are a couple of other threads with Algae scrubber designs.

9157691577915789157991580

[Luke in Phoenix]

One more pic of display tank 2 weeks ago (10-15-2015). 2 of the 3 pairs layed eggs at the same time.
91581

[warblad79]

I offered these fry a constant or pretty close to constant food supply of baby brine shrimp and then a homemade beefheart / seafood mix. They pretty much ate constantly.

With this much food, nitrate becomes a problem so I installed an algae scrubber. Nitrate levels were kept between 0 and 30 ppm with only one 30% water change the entire 53 days the fry were growing out.

Conclusions: Only 1 water change of 30% for 2 months is pretty crazy but these fry grew outstandingly. A constant food source is more important than water changes if you can keep nitrate levels low. I also have a large UV sterilizer on the system but I haven't experimented with and without it.

Before I get killed about the importance of water changes, notice that this thread is in the "laboratory" or experiment section. I am only hoping for a non-emotional debate and to find out if other people have done this same thing.

Try raising 200+ fry to the 40 gallon breeder tank. Well see If your sump can keep up, your experiment is only base on fewer fish. That's why you can get away with less WC. I'm pretty sure a lot of people already try this experiment but most of them failed miserably and you'll see them on disease section all the time.

[Second Hand Pat]

Luke, how many fry are part of this experiment?
Pat

[Luke in Phoenix]

Luke, how many fry are part of this experiment?
Pat

9 fry in a 40 gallon breeder plus 13 adult discus in a 100 gallons. Both tanks are plumbed to the sump.

[Luke in Phoenix]

Try raising 200+ fry to the 40 gallon breeder tank. Well see If your sump can keep up, your experiment is only base on fewer fish. That's why you can get away with less WC. I'm pretty sure a lot of people already try this experiment but most of them failed miserably and you'll see them on disease section all the time.


Agreed. At some point, the quantity of fish vs filtration capacity will be overpowered. I watched the Nitrate levels and they always stayed under 30ppm. Normally, I prefer 0-10.

But what if we were able to feed more often with the same WC and get better growth or do less WC and still have super healthy fish? Obviously WC can never be eliminated 100%. This might just be another tool to use in conjunction with overall good husbandry.

[pastry]

Wait, are there seperate tanks with good size batches from same spawn? Really hoping so because then I'd love to see difference in every day large wc and then the other. Otherwise, it's just growing a batch in one condition. Would loooove to see comparison.

[Luke in Phoenix]

Wait, are there seperate tanks with good size batches from same spawn? Really hoping so because then I'd love to see difference in every day large wc and then the other. Otherwise, it's just growing a batch in one condition. Would loooove to see comparison.

Ah, that would have been a great idea! I thought I would just compare their growth to "standard" fry growth.
I'll see if I can pull that off with the next batch of fry so there are 2 groups to compare.

[pastry]

Ah, that would have been a great idea! I thought I would just compare their growth to "standard" fry growth.
I'll see if I can pull that off with the next batch of fry so there are 2 groups to compare.

Please do! Want to do it myself in future. Same spawn but split up. Hard to compare others fish but still, anything documented helps in future ( even my screw ups)

[Filip]

I just can't belive how efficient alge scrubber is in eating nitrates.
It filters 13 grown discus plus 10 raising fry without Wc and manage to keep nitrates under 30ppm?
Do you have other supportive filtration except the scrubber?

What do you do with feces and remain food after meals,you must at least siphon that out followed with 10 % wc.??

I consider this experiment educational in terms of testing the efficiency of the alge scrubbers as additional filtration in our tanks.
As an addition to ou weekly/ daily Wc routines and other filtration methods,especially in display tanks.

Keep us posted please.

[Luke in Phoenix]

I just can't belive how efficient alge scrubber is in eating nitrates.
It filters 13 grown discus plus 10 raising fry without Wc and manage to keep nitrates under 30ppm?
Do you have other supportive filtration except the scrubber?

What do you do with feces and remain food after meals,you must at least siphon that out followed with 10 % wc.??

I consider this experiment educational in terms of testing the efficiency of the alge scrubbers as additional filtration in our tanks.
As an addition to ou weekly/ daily Wc routines and other filtration methods,especially in display tanks.

Keep us posted please.



Other supportive filtration includes:
- 2 UV Sterilizers
- 2 Filter socks
- Large Eheim 2076 canister filter

This is a pic of the current setup as of today. The canister filter and one of the UV Sterilizers had to be placed beside the stand because of space.
91619


For the next phase, I've placed 2 pairs in the top bare bottom tank (separated by a mesh screen) and 7 discus in the bottom display tank (including 1 pair). All fish are active, vibrant and healthy looking so far.


To get rid of the leftover feces I use an Eheim quick vac pro daily on the top tank. I only used it once on the bottom tank so far. It sucks up everything without a WC. The only other water that has been changed is collecting the surface water out of the sump with a cup every couple of days. I let the water overflow into the cup so it siphons off the top layer of water. This gets rid of a "bubbly" layer that builds up on top. I guess you could count that as a 1% WC every couple of days.



I learned a ton during this "trial". It has not been a "magical" or "no work" fix.

These are a couple of things I learned when adding an algae scrubber to your system:

- Algae screen has to be taken out and cleaned every 1-2 weeks depending on how much you feed.
- I keep my KH at 3-4. The Algae consumed all of it and was 0 before I realized. I had to slowly buffer it back up to 3-4. KH has to monitored.
- Algae needs Phosphate to clean effectively. My tank ran out and I actually have to dose the tank with very small amounts of phosphate to "feed" the algae and keep it working. I now buffer the Phosphate at 1-2 PPM
- You'll have to top off the tank with RO or similar water to ensure the TDS does not keep rising.
- You'll need to add minerals to water that are naturally depleted by discus. I add fish specefic vitamins / minerals to water to keep a TDS of around 300-320
- This is more of my opinion, but if you change less water you'll have to have a large UV sterilizer to help keep the water clean
- The lights get hot, you'll need to watch your temperature closely
- A "bubbly" layer of water that I mentioned already has to be siphoned off every few days (but maybe this is just my tank?)


Depending on the quantity of water changes performed, I think many of the above items will go away. I've just taken it to the extreme for this trial with very limited WC.

[Filip]

What do you clean the algae from? Gunk, small poop particles like in a filter foam?

I don't understand the part of using Ro for Tds not to rise. How can Tds rise in this system?

P.s what kind of alge is growing in your algae scrubber?

[Filip]

Im sure you allready have watched this video , as its been for a long time on net , but it serves the subject .
Its a notorious- substrate planted and overstocked discus tank with next to zero WC and yet succesfull tank .
The owner also like you swears on a refugium as a perfect filtration for long term succes in keepin Discus with almost no WC .

Both of your stories are almost "to good to be true" and it makes me wonder why refugiums and algae scrubbers arent allready widespread practice for filtration .

Here is the link:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqdrtVYBQDY

[nc0gnet0]

I am a little confused here. Two months into your experiment and this is your first post on the matter? I looked through your old posts, but found no mention of this experiment?

[SMB2]

If you were going to do a comparison study, you would have to have two identical but separate set ups. You could not have two tanks connected to one sump. Because, doing a water change on one tank would actually be doing a water change on the whole system.
Would be interesting to divide a fry batch in half and grow out in the two different water change environments.
Also as some will chime in, WC is not just to keep high nitrates down (from large multiple feedings). There are other elements in fresh water that are beneficial. Also the grow period would probably have to be carried out to 6/12 months.
None the less, if you have the time, studies like this are, I think very interesting and should be encouraged. The hard part is having large enough numbers of fish and days of growth in two comparable environments to make the study more than just anecdotal.

[Luke in Phoenix]

What do you clean the algae from? Gunk, small poop particles like in a filter foam?

I don't understand the part of using Ro for Tds not to rise. How can Tds rise in this system?

P.s what kind of alge is growing in your algae scrubber?


I actually don't "clean the aglae", I remove the algae from the screen and throw it away.


Because I'm only removing a limited amount of water, we'll say 5% a month, you have to replace the evaporated water with RO water that has a very low TDS so that the total TDS of your aquarium does not continue to rise.


Good question on what kind of algae is growing but I have no idea. It just grows automatically. I've seen it called "hair algae".

[Luke in Phoenix]

I am a little confused here. Two months into your experiment and this is your first post on the matter? I looked through your old posts, but found no mention of this experiment?


Definitely, if it didn't work that well why post about it. I also wasn't 100% confident I was going to get good results and was always on standby ready to do large WC. I
I did always take pictures though and document those in my discus fry album on here.

[Luke in Phoenix]

If you were going to do a comparison study, you would have to have two identical but separate set ups. You could not have two tanks connected to one sump. Because, doing a water change on one tank would actually be doing a water change on the whole system.
Would be interesting to divide a fry batch in half and grow out in the two different water change environments.
Also as some will chime in, WC is not just to keep high nitrates down (from large multiple feedings). There are other elements in fresh water that are beneficial. Also the grow period would probably have to be carried out to 6/12 months.
None the less, if you have the time, studies like this are, I think very interesting and should be encouraged. The hard part is having large enough numbers of fish and days of growth in two comparable environments to make the study more than just anecdotal.


Neither tank received extra WC because they are connected.

Agreed it would be interesting to divide the fry and see how each grew out. I will at least be able to do another group out to 6 months in the next trial.



I'm a skeptic and wanted to try out this method for myself to see how well it worked.

I've started doing more research and learned that there are many other successful "closed system" aquariums. Not just a few people posting about it online.


- 4 acre aquaculture system in Falls City, Texas was built in 1997. It is a nearly closed system with very limited WC and filtered by Algae Scrubbers. It grows 375,000 tilapia and sells them to the San Antonio fish markets

- a 30 Million gallon aquaculture facility was built in Florida in 1999 and ran completely closed (no WC) for 2 years with high quality fish using algae scrubbers. It was only closed because of cheaper foreign fisheries.

- The Smithsonian built and ran a "closed system" in 1992 with algae scrubbers that successfully ran for over 13 years. The Smithsonian also built other closed systems using algae scrubbers.

- Great Barrier Reef Marine Park in Townsville, Australia has operated algae scrubbers as it's "primary water quality control system" for over 20 years



Maybe this doesn't apply to discus because they are so niche and unique? But maybe it does. I would argue that coral reef systems are much more sensitive than discus.



I ordered this book because I've read it has years and years of science and research on this topic and others. I'll let you know what I find. It's over 500 pages and I'm a slow reader so I'm not sure how exciting it's going to be! haha
91649
"Dynamic Aquaria, Building and Restoring Living Ecosystems"



Ps. love your signature Stan!

[Luke in Phoenix]

Also as some will chime in, WC is not just to keep high nitrates down (from large multiple feedings). There are other elements in fresh water that are beneficial.

Agreed. In order to provide trace elements I buffer with Seachem Discus Trace and use high quality food with lots of vitamins.
91670
"Discus Trace™supplies a broad range of trace elements demonstrated to be necessary for proper fish health and growth"

It's probably not a bod idea to use some of this anyways. Who knows what is or isn't in the tap water.

[Luke in Phoenix]

Im sure you allready have watched this video , as its been for a long time on net , but it serves the subject .
Its a notorious- substrate planted and overstocked discus tank with next to zero WC and yet succesfull tank .
The owner also like you swears on a refugium as a perfect filtration for long term succes in keepin Discus with almost no WC .

Both of your stories are almost "to good to be true" and it makes me wonder why refugiums and algae scrubbers arent allready widespread practice for filtration .

Here is the link:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqdrtVYBQDY



I saw this a while back also and it among other things motivated me to do this trial. The principals probably remain about the same with a variety of methods like this. use natural plants / algae to filter the water.

Either way, it seems pretty evident you could use a similar system to provide better water conditions and healthier fish with less WC. Don't get me wrong, I love my discus just as much as anybody else and am willing to work for them (not really work, I enjoy it) but everybody's time is limited. If you can spend less time working on your tank and more time enjoying healthier discus. That's a win win right?

[Filip]

I don't think that you need to top it off with Ro water, but rather tapwater,cause alge uses ca,mg,k,po3,kno3 and all other minerals from the tap water to thrive and I think so does the discus.
At least that's why people report better discus growing results in hard waters.
This way you add traces and yet you use Ro to take them off,I think its counterproductive.
That's just my opinion.

On the refugiums and algae scrubbers, I just can't imagine how can such a small tank with such a small amount of algae/plants, do so much nitrate eating.
But your experiment prove this to certain point IMO.
Good info, and keep us posted.

[Luke in Phoenix]

I don't think that you need to top it off with Ro water, but rather tapwater,cause alge uses ca,mg,k,po3,kno3 and all other minerals from the tap water to thrive and I think so does the discus.
At least that's why people report better discus growing results in hard waters.
This way you add traces and yet you use Ro to take them off,I think its counterproductive.
That's just my opinion.

On the refugiums and algae scrubbers, I just can't imagine how can such a small tank with such a small amount of algae/plants, do so much nitrate eating.
But your experiment prove this to certain point IMO.
Good info, and keep us posted.


You could be right on the RO water. There is probably an optimal water change % and Algae Scrubber (or other plant filter) size combination that would offer the best results. IE: Healthy discus, cost and work. Something like a 10" algae scrubber combined with 15% biweekly water changes. A combination that would keep nitrates at 0 and maintain sufficient trace elements with more time to enjoy discus instead of working on the tank.

[DC Discus]

Luke - thnaks for taking the time to post what works for you and your experiences!

Algae scrubbers and refugiums have been around for a while and work very well. Reef tanks with hard to care for corals that maintain near 0 nitrates almost always use macro-algaes or plants as part of a complete filtration system. The book "Ecology of the planted Aquarium" (by Walstad) covers the principals of how this is possible in a shorter version. Many of my tanks are in an atrium and every 2-3 days I scarp out a handful of algae, actually most of my water changes involve sucking up hair algae daily.

Cheers,
DC

[Luke in Phoenix]

Good to know. I just ordered that book on amazon. Thanks!

[bluelagoon]

I may have missed it,but did you get the adults to their potential size?They appear rather small in those pics.

[nc0gnet0]

Here is the thing I don't understand. To run a successful experiment, a lot more documentation is needed. I would have loved to follow this over the course of the 2 -3 months with an initial post on the setup, the amount of fish, etc etc. Then it would be followed up with weekly or bi-weekly updates. As it now stands, it makes for an interesting post, but fails the litmus test on a true experiment.

Many questions are left unanswered

How many fry did you start with? Did you lose or cull any?
At what stage where they introduced into this setup?
Could you pull a few juvies and set them on a tape measure?
Can we see a full tank show, it's hard to tell, but there appears to be a large discrepancy in size amongst the small batch.

When all is said and done, I am not sure exactly how this extrapolates into growing out a normal (read much larger) batch of fry. Not many of us on here that actively breed would bother with a batch of 9, most of us would need at least fifty, and prefer 150 to consider raising. Scalability of your setup is a huge concern.

At any rate, I am a big fan of algae scrubbers, but don't see them as viable for fry/juvie growout.

-Rick

[dprais1]

what was the cost involved in setting up the algae scrubber?

-kudos for trying a different approach.

[Jack L]

LOL, I wish but my wife would probably leave me. Tough decision... just kidding!

It's a 40 gallon breeder tank and an 80 gallon display tank both connected to a 20 gallon sump.

so this is actually 140 gallon tank....since all the water is connected

[Jack L]

Other supportive filtration includes:
- 2 UV Sterilizers
- 2 Filter socks
- Large Eheim 2076 canister filter

This is a pic of the current setup as of today. The canister filter and one of the UV Sterilizers had to be placed beside the stand because of space.
91619


For the next phase, I've placed 2 pairs in the top bare bottom tank (separated by a mesh screen) and 7 discus in the bottom display tank (including 1 pair). All fish are active, vibrant and healthy looking so far.


To get rid of the leftover feces I use an Eheim quick vac pro daily on the top tank. I only used it once on the bottom tank so far. It sucks up everything without a WC. The only other water that has been changed is collecting the surface water out of the sump with a cup every couple of days. I let the water overflow into the cup so it siphons off the top layer of water. This gets rid of a "bubbly" layer that builds up on top. I guess you could count that as a 1% WC every couple of days.



I learned a ton during this "trial". It has not been a "magical" or "no work" fix.

These are a couple of things I learned when adding an algae scrubber to your system:

- Algae screen has to be taken out and cleaned every 1-2 weeks depending on how much you feed.
- I keep my KH at 3-4. The Algae consumed all of it and was 0 before I realized. I had to slowly buffer it back up to 3-4. KH has to monitored.
- Algae needs Phosphate to clean effectively. My tank ran out and I actually have to dose the tank with very small amounts of phosphate to "feed" the algae and keep it working. I now buffer the Phosphate at 1-2 PPM
- You'll have to top off the tank with RO or similar water to ensure the TDS does not keep rising.
- You'll need to add minerals to water that are naturally depleted by discus. I add fish specefic vitamins / minerals to water to keep a TDS of around 300-320
- This is more of my opinion, but if you change less water you'll have to have a large UV sterilizer to help keep the water clean
- The lights get hot, you'll need to watch your temperature closely
- A "bubbly" layer of water that I mentioned already has to be siphoned off every few days (but maybe this is just my tank?)


Depending on the quantity of water changes performed, I think many of the above items will go away. I've just taken it to the extreme for this trial with very limited WC.

thanks for the insights on the algae scrubber, i have been researching them, have most of the parts, but been holding off, i dont' want the noise of a bubbler in my stand.

[Jack L]

Good to know. I just ordered that book on amazon. Thanks!

i just read this book, i must of missed the algae scrubber part of it.

[Luke in Phoenix]

I may have missed it,but did you get the adults to their potential size?They appear rather small in those pics.


I grew them out in these conditions for 53 days at which all of them were over 2.5" with a few reaching over 3" and very healthy. I'm going to try and get the pairs to raise some more fry.
All 3 pairs have laid eggs again but they keep eating most of them. I think I need to get a screen...

[Luke in Phoenix]

i just read this book, i must of missed the algae scrubber part of it.

In the Dynamic Aquaria book he calls it an "ATS system", Algae Turf Scrubber. They were designed much differently then but had the same purpose of growing algae. Over the years, people have found easier and more efficient ways to grow algae. Maybe that's the difference? I haven't received the ecology of the planted aquarium book yet.

[Luke in Phoenix]

thanks for the insights on the algae scrubber, i have been researching them, have most of the parts, but been holding off, i dont' want the noise of a bubbler in my stand.


I can't hear the bubbles in mine but I can hear the faint hum of the air pump. It's not bad at all though if you get a good air pump.

[Luke in Phoenix]

Correct, you could call it a 140 gallon "system" since all tanks are connected.

[Luke in Phoenix]

what was the cost involved in setting up the algae scrubber?

-kudos for trying a different approach.


Thanks, it was super easy to setup and relatively cheap for the discus hobby. I appreciate all the good stuff I've learned on Simply and hope to pass something small on.


This is what I bought for the scrubber and then just put it together:

$17.50 - Danner Aqua Supreme AP-4 Aquarium Air Pump, 3.5-watt
$4.81 - PENN PLAX Air Stone, 10-Inch by 2-Inch
$59.47 - Lvjing® High Power 50W Led Plant Grow Light Panel 1365 Led Red + Blue for Hydroponic Plants Flowers Vegetables Greenhouse Hydro Lighting AC 85-265V
$3.16 - Black airline tubbing
$2.68 - 1-1/2"X2' PVC-PW/DWV SCH40 PIPE (Bought at Home Depot)
$3.00 - Mesh Screen (I can't remember the exact price)


You can pretty much buy everything on Amazon. I've seen a lot of people just use cfl lighting instead of purchasing the led lights to save money. Just google "how to Algae Scrubber" or look on you tube and you'll find ton's of good ideas that you can customize for your specific system. A lot of the smaller scrubbers don't require a sump.

[Luke in Phoenix]

Here is the thing I don't understand. To run a successful experiment, a lot more documentation is needed. I would have loved to follow this over the course of the 2 -3 months with an initial post on the setup, the amount of fish, etc etc. Then it would be followed up with weekly or bi-weekly updates. As it now stands, it makes for an interesting post, but fails the litmus test on a true experiment.

Many questions are left unanswered

How many fry did you start with? Did you lose or cull any?
At what stage where they introduced into this setup?
Could you pull a few juvies and set them on a tape measure?
Can we see a full tank show, it's hard to tell, but there appears to be a large discrepancy in size amongst the small batch.

When all is said and done, I am not sure exactly how this extrapolates into growing out a normal (read much larger) batch of fry. Not many of us on here that actively breed would bother with a batch of 9, most of us would need at least fifty, and prefer 150 to consider raising. Scalability of your setup is a huge concern.

At any rate, I am a big fan of algae scrubbers, but don't see them as viable for fry/juvie growout.

-Rick



Fair enough. I'll try something similar and do another post from the beginning some time in the future.

I'm not an "active breeder". If one of my pairs successfully had over 30 fry I'd be pretty super excited! They always eat most of them. Again, I think I should try the screen over the eggs method.


Here are a couple answers to your other questions:

How many fry did you start with? - 9
Did you lose or cull any? - Yes, culled 2 (you can actually see pics of them on another Simply thread I started)
At what stage where they introduced into this setup? - They were always in this setup
Could you pull a few juvies and set them on a tape measure? - Next time I will, I did measure them on a tape but didn't take pics
Can we see a full tank show, it's hard to tell, but there appears to be a large discrepancy in size amongst the small batch. - Not really, They were all pretty close. 2.5" - 3" after 53 days. Probably just my bad photography skills


As far as scalability: I see the algae scrubber as just another tool to keep healthier fish combined with overall good husbandry. Much of this will depend on your load, feeding and algae scrubber size. I've seen some pretty big scrubbers and I'm sure people with larger sumps could easily add twice the scrubber size I have in mine. Even if it only filters nitrates down to zero for 10 cubes feeding per day but you still feed more, it would at least help. 10 cubes is a lot of food (at least for my small tanks).

[pastry]

Here is the thing I don't understand. To run a successful experiment, a lot more documentation is needed. I would have loved to follow this over the course of the 2 -3 months with an initial post on the setup, the amount of fish, etc etc. Then it would be followed up with weekly or bi-weekly updates. As it now stands, it makes for an interesting post, but fails the litmus test on a true experiment.

Many questions are left unanswered

How many fry did you start with? Did you lose or cull any?
At what stage where they introduced into this setup?
Could you pull a few juvies and set them on a tape measure?
Can we see a full tank show, it's hard to tell, but there appears to be a large discrepancy in size amongst the small batch.

When all is said and done, I am not sure exactly how this extrapolates into growing out a normal (read much larger) batch of fry. Not many of us on here that actively breed would bother with a batch of 9, most of us would need at least fifty, and prefer 150 to consider raising. Scalability of your setup is a huge concern.

At any rate, I am a big fan of algae scrubbers, but don't see them as viable for fry/juvie growout.

-Rick

I agree, Rick, but he's already on his way with this one. Topic used may not match but still curious to see how it goes.

Jack, can we maybe get some pics like Rick was saying? And any other factors? I want to do an experiment in the future with a spawn and seperate them into (hopefully) three tanks. One will have twice a day wc's at about 90 percent each one, another will have once a day 90 percent, and another will be two 60 percent changes a week. I'm going to keep all feeding constant as well as bb. I've always wanted to do that. Alright, pics pics please!

[Luke in Phoenix]

I agree, Rick, but he's already on his way with this one. Topic used may not match but still curious to see how it goes.

Jack, can we maybe get some pics like Rick was saying? And any other factors? I want to do an experiment in the future with a spawn and seperate them into (hopefully) three tanks. One will have twice a day wc's at about 90 percent each one, another will have once a day 90 percent, and another will be two 60 percent changes a week. I'm going to keep all feeding constant as well as bb. I've always wanted to do that. Alright, pics pics please!


Happy to post some more pics. Are you referring to pics of the tank setup?

Your 3 tank trial sounds very interesting. I'll watch for it.

I pulled out the original fry and am going to try again with better documentation and hopefully a bigger group of fry that I'll grow out until adults.

-Luke

[pastry]

Definitely put a few right smack on a measuring tape if you're comfortable. It'll help you track their progress as well. Always hard to tell when putting tape up to tank (they won't stay still!). Actually, I went back and saw the set up and initial pics of fish (I'm guilty often of not going back and reading ;)).

Yeah, I want to do the 3 tank experiment but it's going to a be awhile. Next house I'll have the chance but this current one has a lousy set up.

[Jack L]

I can't hear the bubbles in mine but I can hear the faint hum of the air pump. It's not bad at all though if you get a good air pump.

i meant the hum of air pump too, on youtube vids of scrubbers, i saw people complaining about the bubble noise.
but the part you shared about it consuming the minerials i wasn't even thinking about before you mentioned it.

[Jack L]

TDS = 310, Temperature 84, KH = 3
I grew out 9 total fry in this setup. I just moved the Discus fry into another tank and put the parents back into the breeder tank.

These are the parents today back in the breeder tank, still 0 additional water changes as of today. They continued to lay eggs every 1-1.5 weeks along with 2 additional pairs in the display tank that also laid eggs on a schedule.
91574

what size are these? just curious

[nc0gnet0]

Fair enough. I'll try something similar and do another post from the beginning some time in the future.

I'm not an "active breeder". If one of my pairs successfully had over 30 fry I'd be pretty super excited! They always eat most of them. Again, I think I should try the screen over the eggs method.


Here are a couple answers to your other questions:

How many fry did you start with? - 9
Did you lose or cull any? - Yes, culled 2 (you can actually see pics of them on another Simply thread I started)
At what stage where they introduced into this setup? - They were always in this setup
Could you pull a few juvies and set them on a tape measure? - Next time I will, I did measure them on a tape but didn't take pics
Can we see a full tank show, it's hard to tell, but there appears to be a large discrepancy in size amongst the small batch. - Not really, They were all pretty close. 2.5" - 3" after 53 days. Probably just my bad photography skills


As far as scalability: I see the algae scrubber as just another tool to keep healthier fish combined with overall good husbandry. Much of this will depend on your load, feeding and algae scrubber size. I've seen some pretty big scrubbers and I'm sure people with larger sumps could easily add twice the scrubber size I have in mine. Even if it only filters nitrates down to zero for 10 cubes feeding per day but you still feed more, it would at least help. 10 cubes is a lot of food (at least for my small tanks).

Here is a competition that was run a few years ago.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?165-Third-Annual-Discus-Hobbyist-Challenge-(2012)


It would be nice for you to follow that format. it would make any excellent source for comparison. Here is one of my three entries in that contest:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?98099-Batch-1-Blue-Diamond-x-Dark-Angel

[Luke in Phoenix]

what size are these? just curious

I just put both of them on a tape and the mom measured 4.5" and the dad is 5.5"

[Luke in Phoenix]

i meant the hum of air pump too, on youtube vids of scrubbers, i saw people complaining about the bubble noise.
but the part you shared about it consuming the minerials i wasn't even thinking about before you mentioned it.

It's not crazy fast but depending on your WC quantity you'll definitely notice. I suppose if you are breeding and want soft water then it's a benefit!

[Luke in Phoenix]

Here is a competition that was run a few years ago.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?165-Third-Annual-Discus-Hobbyist-Challenge-(2012)


It would be nice for you to follow that format. it would make any excellent source for comparison. Here is one of my three entries in that contest:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?98099-Batch-1-Blue-Diamond-x-Dark-Angel

Good format to follow. That would be a fun contest. Maybe they'll do it again.

[Luke in Phoenix]

Update:
All fish appear and behave healthy.


I've taken everyone's input and have a new batch of fry that are ready for test #2. This test should be over 6 months with about 60 fry.

Link to second test thread: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122295-Fry-grow-out-test-with-an-algae-scrubber-Water-change-health-and-growth-rate-test&p=1188507#post1188507