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Second Hand Pat
11-09-2015, 11:54 PM
With the help of a friend who keeps altums I have totally changed how I prep the water for my altums. Instead of adding enough tap to get the TDS to about 30 to pure RO water I am doing things a little different.

I start with RO water and add enough RO Right to get the TDS to 100. I then dose Discus Essentials to the volume of water I am changing. The RO Right has a slight effect on the ph and the Discus Essentials has none at all. The native waters of the altums is acidic and mineral rich. The minerals allow the young altums to grow the long beautiful fins they are known for. :D The 16 altums I have are currently in a 75 and I do a 50% WC on them every other day. I also maintain a ph monitor on the altum tank. Since I have started to do this the ph has slowly been dropping to the point where it is maintaining about 5.5.

So I am trying some similar on the 230 Cuipeua tank. So tonight I prepared the water in a similar manner except targeted a TDS of about 50. Super curious to see how the fish response to this over time.

DJW
11-10-2015, 01:28 AM
So, by adding less of the RO Right, which has a little bit of KH, you are gradually lowering the PH, if I understand it. And making up the difference in the minerals with Discus Essentials.

How low will you be able to go with PH if you went straight RO with Essentials or Equilibrium without any RO Right? I guess this would be the same PH as your aged RO alone.

Second Hand Pat
11-10-2015, 09:54 AM
Nemonic, for the altums the RO right is used to bump the TDS (and add kH). I presume the RO Right contains a certain amount of minerals also. For the discus I used half the RO Right since I have been targeting a TDS of around 50 in that tank. My friend's bother used Discus Essentials on his domestic pair and it really helped with egg production and fry.

My experience with altum tank shows that by targeting a TDS of 100 the ph will drop over time so could get a quicker drop in the ph by using less RO Right (hence less kH). I suspect all this is driven by water volume, bio-load etc.


How low will you be able to go with PH if you went straight RO with Essentials or Equilibrium without any RO Right? I guess this would be the same PH as your aged RO alone.

Obviously I do not know the answer to that. Straight RO would have little kH and I do not know if Discus Essentials adds to the kH. Yes, I could measure for this. :) My goal is to drop the pH below 7 but will need to closely monitor since I am using less RO Right.
Pat

DiscusOnly
11-10-2015, 12:10 PM
Pat,

I've started using Sera peat granules as part of the substrate for my Heckel tank. It's a BB tank with some granules. I have similar experience with using less RO right. My tank is in the low 4s as far as pH goes. I know it sounds low and I have not recalibrated my meter recently but I know the meter does work. pH bump close to 6 when I do WC. I have to be careful of big WC cause it went above 6.5 when I did too big of a change. I only replace with RO water now.

Second Hand Pat
11-10-2015, 01:46 PM
Van, I may consider that later depends on how this goes. You have any pictures of your heckels. They have to be loving that low ph.
Pat

DJW
11-10-2015, 02:52 PM
The last time I had Discus there was no RO in the hobby, or at least that was affordable, and there was a lot of hand-wringing about PH at the time. Now we know its more about TDS & conductivity. So the first thing I did when I got RO was measure how low the PH was and that would tell me whether I would need peat or something if I wanted to go lower in an attempt to induce spawning.

My pure RO settles at 6.7 which is why I don't use RO Right for minerals, but instead use minerals that leave the PH alone.

nc0gnet0
11-10-2015, 04:35 PM
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/khgh.html

nc0gnet0
11-10-2015, 04:42 PM
Curious what your results are with the discus trace. I played with it for a while and did not notice any discernible difference in clutch sizes, fry development or fertility. The product is 99.5% water, and for the life of me I can't figure out why they don't make a powdered version (like safe vs prime).

DJW
11-10-2015, 05:18 PM
I think it would be hard to get the right proportions of the elements if it was in powder form, with the denser ingredients settling. The bottle says to shake well before using. And most people won't measure small amounts correctly.

Second Hand Pat
11-10-2015, 09:57 PM
The last time I had Discus there was no RO in the hobby, or at least that was affordable, and there was a lot of hand-wringing about PH at the time. Now we know its more about TDS & conductivity. So the first thing I did when I got RO was measure how low the PH was and that would tell me whether I would need peat or something if I wanted to go lower in an attempt to induce spawning.

My pure RO settles at 6.7 which is why I don't use RO Right for minerals, but instead use minerals that leave the PH alone.

Nemonic, all I can tell you at this point is the combination of RO Right and Discus Essentials is supporting the fin development in my wild altums. Without it I see the tips of the fins break off which I do not want. Since having the ph slowly down is a unexpected plus I am using a similar approach with my wild discus in hopes of inducing a spawn.
Pat

Second Hand Pat
11-10-2015, 10:00 PM
Curious what your results are with the discus trace. I played with it for a while and did not notice any discernible difference in clutch sizes, fry development or fertility. The product is 99.5% water, and for the life of me I can't figure out why they don't make a powdered version (like safe vs prime).

Rick, isn't discus trace a different (but similar) product? I see that it is, Discus Trace is made by Seachem and Discus Essentials is made by Kent Marine.
Pat

yogi
11-11-2015, 12:02 AM
I wish you the best of luck with this and I'm sure the cuipeua tank will respond positively to this. But I hate tds meters and wish I knew what your conductivity reading is.
Here is an explanation from a hydroponics web site on why different make tds meters give different readings, but all conductivity meters give the same reading.

A quick answer to why we should use EC instead of TDS

The debate over EC and TDS has been an ongoing issue for a long time. These two measurements are used to determine the strength of hydroponic solution. Although they are widely used they should only be used as a guideline and you should always follow mixing instructions on the label of you nutrient.
EC stands for Electrical Conductivity and is measured in mS/cm or millisiemens per centimeter. TDS stands for Total Dissolved Solids and is measured in PPM or parts per million. TDS is acquired by taking the EC value and performing a calculation to determine the TDS value. Because TDS is actually a calculation it is really only a guess at what the nutrient concentration is. On top of that, there are three different conversion factors to determine TDS and different manufacturers use different conversion factors. In other words you could test the same solution with two different meters and get two totally different readings. But the EC is read the same by all meters the only difference is the conversion factor.

Some additional information for the geeks like us

First of all lets talk about the differences and similarities between EC and TDS. We all know that they are both a measure of the amount of dissolved solids in your nutrient solution. This measurement is used by growers to get an idea of how much nutrient is present in the solution. By maintaining the correct level of nutrients in the solution your plants will achieve maximum results. This all sounds very important but there are some major differences between the different meter manufacturers. Some of you may have noticed that some calibration solutions that are marked to read at a certain TDS may actually read different from meter to meter. This is where the problem begins.
Some of you may have not even heard of EC and others may have heard of it but do not even know what it is. Unfortunately many growers in the United States have become very accustomed to using the TDS scale while in most other countries, including Europe, they don't use anything but EC. The fact is that TDS is actually a result of a calculation from EC. The problem is lack of consistency among manufacturers when it comes to conversion factors. This is where it may get a little confusing. Most meter manufacturers in the hydroponics industry use one of two conversions. There is the 442 conversion (40% sodium sulfate, 40% sodium bicarbonate, and 20% sodium chloride) which some say is the closest thing to a hydroponic solution. The 442 conversion is approximately 700 x EC in millisiemens (mS). Then there is the NaCl conversion (sodium chloride) which others say is the closest thing to a hydroponic solution. The NaCl conversion is approximately 500 x EC in millisiemens (mS). You can see where the confusion comes from because the same solution will read 2100 ppm on one meter and it will read 1500 ppm on the other. That is a difference of 600 ppm which as many of you know could be devastating. Both meters are functioning correctly they are just calculating the TDS using a different formula. So, if you do not calibrate your meter using the correct calibration solution your meter could give you a very inaccurate reading.
The solution is simple, use EC. With EC, no conversion is required so all meters will read the same regardless of the manufacturer.

Second Hand Pat
11-11-2015, 12:42 AM
Alright Jerry, I will bite. Which meter would you suggest?
Pat

nc0gnet0
11-11-2015, 01:20 AM
I wish you the best of luck with this and I'm sure the cuipeua tank will respond positively to this. But I hate tds meters and wish I knew what your conductivity reading is.
Here is an explanation from a hydroponics web site on why different make tds meters give different readings, but all conductivity meters give the same reading.

A quick answer to why we should use EC instead of TDS

The debate over EC and TDS has been an ongoing issue for a long time. These two measurements are used to determine the strength of hydroponic solution. Although they are widely used they should only be used as a guideline and you should always follow mixing instructions on the label of you nutrient.
EC stands for Electrical Conductivity and is measured in mS/cm or millisiemens per centimeter. TDS stands for Total Dissolved Solids and is measured in PPM or parts per million. TDS is acquired by taking the EC value and performing a calculation to determine the TDS value. Because TDS is actually a calculation it is really only a guess at what the nutrient concentration is. On top of that, there are three different conversion factors to determine TDS and different manufacturers use different conversion factors. In other words you could test the same solution with two different meters and get two totally different readings. But the EC is read the same by all meters the only difference is the conversion factor.

Some additional information for the geeks like us

First of all lets talk about the differences and similarities between EC and TDS. We all know that they are both a measure of the amount of dissolved solids in your nutrient solution. This measurement is used by growers to get an idea of how much nutrient is present in the solution. By maintaining the correct level of nutrients in the solution your plants will achieve maximum results. This all sounds very important but there are some major differences between the different meter manufacturers. Some of you may have noticed that some calibration solutions that are marked to read at a certain TDS may actually read different from meter to meter. This is where the problem begins.
Some of you may have not even heard of EC and others may have heard of it but do not even know what it is. Unfortunately many growers in the United States have become very accustomed to using the TDS scale while in most other countries, including Europe, they don't use anything but EC. The fact is that TDS is actually a result of a calculation from EC. The problem is lack of consistency among manufacturers when it comes to conversion factors. This is where it may get a little confusing. Most meter manufacturers in the hydroponics industry use one of two conversions. There is the 442 conversion (40% sodium sulfate, 40% sodium bicarbonate, and 20% sodium chloride) which some say is the closest thing to a hydroponic solution. The 442 conversion is approximately 700 x EC in millisiemens (mS). Then there is the NaCl conversion (sodium chloride) which others say is the closest thing to a hydroponic solution. The NaCl conversion is approximately 500 x EC in millisiemens (mS). You can see where the confusion comes from because the same solution will read 2100 ppm on one meter and it will read 1500 ppm on the other. That is a difference of 600 ppm which as many of you know could be devastating. Both meters are functioning correctly they are just calculating the TDS using a different formula. So, if you do not calibrate your meter using the correct calibration solution your meter could give you a very inaccurate reading.
The solution is simple, use EC. With EC, no conversion is required so all meters will read the same regardless of the manufacturer.

Well, this might very well be the case when mixing high EC/tds solutions for hydroponics, but for measuring discus tanks, a TDS meter is more than suffice.

Your example of vastly different readings depending on the conversion factor used is only significant when taking high readings (greater that 1000), on the lower end of the spectrum (less than 100) the differences become insignificant. As long as the meter is consistent, and is calibrated every so often to check for accuracy, a TDS meter is a great tool (and remember, a TDS meter IS an EC meter).

On your example, the EC would have been three milli siemens ergo 3 x 500 = 1500 tds or 3 x 700 = 2100 tds.
With a mS reading of .1 the differnces fade away .1 x 500 = 50 tds or .1 x 700 = 70 tds

DJW
11-11-2015, 01:39 AM
If I know what conversion factor my TDS meter is using and want to express it in mS/cm, why not just apply the reciprocal? If I see conductivity given in mS/cm I just take it times 0.6 or thereabouts to convert to the more familiar TDS. In the range between 0 and 150 TDS isn't this close enough?

nc0gnet0
11-11-2015, 01:47 AM
If I know what conversion factor my TDS meter is using and want to express it in mS/cm, why not just apply the reciprocal? If I see conductivity given in mS/cm I just take it times 0.6 or thereabouts to convert to the more familiar TDS. In the range between 0 and 150 TDS isn't this close enough?

If you had a TDs meter and knew what conversion factor it was using you would just divide by 700 or 500 (using jerry's example) to get mS conductivity.

The advantage of TDS is that your working with larger numbers as opposed to fractions of a decimal point.

DiscusOnly
11-11-2015, 08:49 AM
Pat,

I use a separate Milwaukee EC and pH monitor. I have those older green color one but there is a new 3 in 1.

http://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-Portable-Calibration-Accuracy-Resolution/dp/B007Z4KGC6

yogi
11-11-2015, 10:45 AM
I don't recommend one make meter over another, and a tds meter is a conductivity meter but they then multiply it by a .7 or a .5 to give a different reading. So I find it very strange they don't want to just give the real conductivity reading. Why give a fake reading? Like the article said different tds meters give different readings, but all conductivity meters give the same reading.

jawfish
11-11-2015, 11:13 PM
Interesting Pat, looking forward to see how your 230 will do

Cheers,

Fred

Second Hand Pat
11-12-2015, 10:06 AM
Van and Jerry , thank you for the recommendations and information. :D

Rick, also some good information.

Second Hand Pat
11-12-2015, 10:08 AM
Interesting Pat, looking forward to see how your 230 will do

Cheers,

Fred

Thanks Fred, I moved the ph monitor to the 230 and it's currently sitting at 7.13. I suspect I need another WC using RO Right and DE to start the process. Low bio-load in a large body of water.
Pat

nc0gnet0
11-12-2015, 11:11 AM
I don't recommend one make meter over another, and a tds meter is a conductivity meter but they then multiply it by a .7 or a .5 to give a different reading. So I find it very strange they don't want to just give the real conductivity reading. Why give a fake reading? Like the article said different tds meters give different readings, but all conductivity meters give the same reading.

Any digital probe is typically measuring a resistance, or a voltage, and as such they all to some degree employ an IC chip that uses a "conversion" factor to display the pertinent information. Are you saying you would rather the digital thermometer display in ohms the resistance of the thermistor? I don't get your "fake" number analogy.

yogi
11-12-2015, 11:51 PM
Conductivity is usually expressed as ‘EC’. EC stands for Electrical Conductivity and the unit measurement is milliSiemens per centimetre squared (Ms/cm2). This is frequently shortened to ‘millSiemens’. But you already know this.

So here is the problem I have with the tds meter. So if the conductivity meter reads 100ec then the conductivity shows 100ec. So for the same price as a conductivity meter why should I buy a tds meter that reads 100ec (doesn't show it to me) but instead tells me the tds is 70, or a different make tds meter still reads the same 100ec (once again doesn't show it to me) but tells me the tds is 50. So that is my problem with the tds bs.

So Pat once you lower the ph of your 230 wild cuperia tank and lower the conductivity you will see happier nicer looking wild discus. And don't be surprised if the red coloring shows better.

Second Hand Pat
11-13-2015, 12:03 AM
That is what I am hoping for Jerry :D and maybe some pairing behavior. Ph has not quite drifted below 7.0.
Pat

DJW
11-13-2015, 01:32 AM
Jerry,

Maybe one reason why the EC meters are not so popular is confusion with the units. I noticed above that we both screwed up on the units. The unit of EC that you multiply by .5 or .7 to get TDS is the microsiemen per centimeter (or μS/cm) and its over a distance of 1 centimeter. In my earlier post I couldn't find the greek letter MU anywhere on my keyboard so typed 'mS/cm' which Rick correctly read as milli-Seimens, so I was off by a factor of 1000 from what I meant.

Anyway I just ordered an EC meter from HM Digital that reads in μS/cm. For soft water the numbers should be between 20 and 200 or so. I'm fine with the TDS meter but I like gadgets that measure so why not.

nc0gnet0
11-13-2015, 02:07 AM
Conductivity is usually expressed as ‘EC’. EC stands for Electrical Conductivity and the unit measurement is milliSiemens per centimetre squared (Ms/cm2). This is frequently shortened to ‘millSiemens’. But you already know this.

Actually I think EC is usually given in microS/cm, I could be wrong, EC is not an official unit of measurement. There is a handy calculator here:

http://www.lenntech.com/calculators/conductivity/tds-engels.htm

nc0gnet0
11-13-2015, 02:21 AM
So here is the problem I have with the tds meter. So if the conductivity meter reads 100ec then the conductivity shows 100ec. So for the same price as a conductivity meter why should I buy a tds meter that reads 100ec (doesn't show it to me) but instead tells me the tds is 70, or a different make tds meter still reads the same 100ec (once again doesn't show it to me) but tells me the tds is 50. So that is my problem with the tds bs.

or


So here is the problem I have with the EC meter. So if the conductivity meter reads 100ec then the conductivity shows 100ec. But what good is that? I am after all trying to figure out how pure my water is? What do I care how much electrical current my water conducts between two probes over the distance of a centimeter? So for the same price as a TDS meter why should I buy a EC meter that reads 100ec but won't show me the TDS?, So that is my problem with the EC bs.

...But seriously, jerry I get the fact you prefer the EC meter over the TDS meter. But that is a PERSONAL preference. A TDS meter is not BS. A TDS meter IS an EC meter.

Both meters are designed to measure one thing. Impurities in our water, known as dissolved solids. It is these dissolved solids that give water it's conductivity. So when we convert the conductivity to TDS we are in essence converting to a unit for which we are targeting.

Know, with this in mind, each dissolved solid will impact conductivity in its own way, some much more than others. Dissolved solid "x" when 100 ppm is added to pure water might give me a conductivity reading of 156 microsiemens/cm while if I add 100 ppm dissolved solid "y" it may only yield a conductivity of 100 microsiemens/cm.

Conversely Jerry, if you and Pat are both comparing water measurements with the same EC device, yet are on different water supply's, you could,, in theory have identical conductivity measurements, yet still have a much different water composition. (This is a problem shared with TDS meters)

This is not even to mention that neither will detect dissolved organics at all, due to the fact they are generally non-conductive in nature.

Now I get that your biggest issue is the fact that with TDS meters, there are three common conversion factors. Each will give a different reading when testing the same water, and this drives you nuts. But there is a reason for this, and it is quite simple.

Different parts of the world typically have different dissolved solids (with different conductive properties) in their water. For that reason three different conversion factors were developed, to represent the composition of dissolved solids found in that region, and in an ideal world you pick the one that most accurately represents your area.

HOWEVER, once you establish a base line (which would be the measurement of your tap water in most cases) any of the three different TDS meters or an EC meter will work just fine for our needs (read discus keeping). It's just that the TDS meter gives us an easier to understand scale (for most of us anyways).

But, if we are not using our meter for discus keeping, but rather using it in a hydroponics setup instead (which is where most if not all your info is coming from), in which we are adding KNOWN combinations of salts to the water, and at much higher concentrations than we would ever even come close to keeping discus (ie TDS>1000), then yes, an EC meter makes more sense.

yogi
11-13-2015, 10:51 AM
So I will have to say it's knit picking on my part on why I don't like tds meters. But you did say in your reply that a tds meter can be using one of three different conversions. So without the poster mentioning which conversion there meter is using it could be giving a different reading that someone else's meter using a different conversion.

nc0gnet0
11-13-2015, 12:27 PM
So I will have to say it's knit picking on my part on why I don't like tds meters. But you did say in your reply that a tds meter can be using one of three different conversions. So without the poster mentioning which conversion there meter is using it could be giving a different reading that someone else's meter using a different conversion.

That is 100 % correct. It would help if the two knew what conversion their meter was using. Even then, unless the two posters are using the same source water, even if the they have identical meters, (EC or TDS), it's still not an apples to apples comparison.


-Rick

plecocicho
11-15-2015, 11:23 AM
Some organic compounds do increase conductivity like fluvic acids,fatty acids, proteins, as they are dissolved in water as ions. Abatapo river is a typical blackwater river with low ph, low mineral content and high fluvic and tanin acid concentrations. The fish get their minerals trough actively pumping them with special chloride cells in their gills, which can be found in all blackwater species. Beside that, fulvic acids act like net catching all positive ions, ca and mg, due to week ionic bonds between their negative charge and positive charge of ca and mg ions. I think the standard should be ec, not tds because of the said conversion problems, as it is in science and european fishkeeping.

Second Hand Pat
11-17-2015, 12:15 PM
When I started this thread the ph in the Cuipeua tank was 7.13 which was right after I did a WC where the water was prepped at noted in the first post. The ph has since drifted below the 7.0 mark to about 6.90.
Pat

DiscusOnly
11-17-2015, 12:32 PM
Pat,

Try a box of these.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=21338

I purchased a bulk supply (6 boxes thinking that I would replace them once a month). I used 1 box so far and have not added any new one. It will drop your pH.

Van

Second Hand Pat
11-18-2015, 07:14 AM
Pat,

Try a box of these.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=21338

I purchased a bulk supply (6 boxes thinking that I would replace them once a month). I used 1 box so far and have not added any new one. It will drop your pH.

Van

Thanks Van, what size tank are you using this in?
Pat

DiscusOnly
11-18-2015, 08:46 AM
Pat,

I started with 1/2 a box on a 75 gallon. I added to the tank via a media bag in the AC110. It gave me some nice tannin but as it wore off, I put in the other half. Instead of dumping out the old ones, I just spread it on the bottom of the tank. I am using RO water only. pH drops down to low 4's within 12 hours. 50% WC brings the pH up to mid 5's For now, I don't have any tannin color but I didn't want to mess with the tank much as I think I got the water to be where I wanted. Slowly, I am thinking of adding a piece of DW but I never have good experience with those, especially with low pH water. I may put a little of the tea you suggested back soon.

I need to recalibrate my EC meter but don't have the correct solution (need to order some). With the TDS meter, it's around 60ppm.

Van

Second Hand Pat
11-18-2015, 09:35 PM
Thanks Van, it could take a lot of peat to affect the ph in this tank which is 230 gallons. So far the ph is falling slowly. Tomorrow I am doing a 50% WC and expect to see an small increase in ph and have it drop back down. The ph is currently 6.91.
Pat

nc0gnet0
11-18-2015, 10:09 PM
Thanks Van, it could take a lot of peat to affect the ph in this tank which is 230 gallons. So far the ph is falling slowly. Tomorrow I am doing a 50% WC and expect to see an small increase in ph and have it drop back down. The ph is currently 6.91.
Pat

Are you using the peat in your tank, or are you using it to condition the water in you water change barrel? If the tank, wouldn't you continually have fluctuating water conditions every time you did a water change?

Second Hand Pat
11-18-2015, 10:14 PM
Rick, not using peak currently.
Pat

DiscusOnly
11-19-2015, 08:43 AM
Thanks Van, it could take a lot of peat to affect the ph in this tank which is 230 gallons. So far the ph is falling slowly. Tomorrow I am doing a 50% WC and expect to see an small increase in ph and have it drop back down. The ph is currently 6.91.
Pat

Pat,

It took me a few months with the peat in the tank and using RO only. I've only used 1 box of the 1lb super peat so far and have not used anymore. I began using it at the end of June.

I introduced the tea back to the tank last night to add some color and did see a small slight bump in pH (4.2 to 4.3) When I get a chance over the weekend, I'll post a video of the tank.

DiscusOnly
11-19-2015, 08:46 AM
Are you using the peat in your tank, or are you using it to condition the water in you water change barrel? If the tank, wouldn't you continually have fluctuating water conditions every time you did a water change?

I know the question was to Pat but Rick, I do get the pH to swing up to mid 5's whenever I do WC and add new RO. Overnight the pH drops back to the 4's. If I do too big of a WC, it will take I up to 6's.

Second Hand Pat
11-19-2015, 08:57 AM
Are you using the peat in your tank, or are you using it to condition the water in you water change barrel? If the tank, wouldn't you continually have fluctuating water conditions every time you did a water change?


I know the question was to Pat but Rick, I do get the pH to swing up to mid 5's whenever I do WC and add new RO. Overnight the pH drops back to the 4's. If I do too big of a WC, it will take I up to 6's.

Even thru I am not currently using peat. To add to Rick's question and Van's observation...I do see a ph rise from 5.5 to 5.9 when I do a 50% water change on the altum tank. The ph drops back to 5.5 over a 24 hour period. So after the initial ph fluctuation the water parameters are steady. Please note the ph changes does not bother the altums one bit. If there is any fish sensitive to change it is altums.

Also note that my observations in the altum tank is what has lead me to try this on the Cuipeua tank.

DiscusOnly
11-19-2015, 09:04 AM
Even thru I am not currently using peat. To add to Rick's question and Van's observation...I do see a ph rise from 5.5 to 5.9 when I do a 50% water change on the altum tank. The ph drops back to 5.5 over a 24 hour period. So after the initial ph fluctuation the water parameters are steady. Please note the ph changes does not bother the altums one bit. If there is any fish sensitive to change it is altums.

Also note that my observations in the altum tank is what has lead me to try this on the Cuipeua tank.

Pat,

A few years back, I met Bev and Dale Newcomer who was raising altums and was trying to get them to breed. I believe they were using RO in their tank.

Second Hand Pat
11-19-2015, 09:12 AM
Pat,

A few years back, I met Bev and Dale Newcomer who was raising altums and was trying to get them to breed. I believe they were using RO in their tank.

Van, one of my altum mentor's is breeding altums successfully and he is the source for how I am prepping my water for my altums. I am using RO water only for the altums, no added tap...but I do use RO Right (to adjust the TDS to 100) and Discus Essentials for additional minerals. Look at the fins on these guys. :)
Pat


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOUY104wvUo

Second Hand Pat
11-19-2015, 09:25 AM
Pat,

It took me a few months with the peat in the tank and using RO only. I've only used 1 box of the 1lb super peat so far and have not used anymore. I began using it at the end of June.

I introduced the tea back to the tank last night to add some color and did see a small slight bump in pH (4.2 to 4.3) When I get a chance over the weekend, I'll post a video of the tank.

Would love to see a video of your tank and fish Van...thank you. :D
Pat

DiscusOnly
11-20-2015, 10:00 AM
Would love to see a video of your tank and fish Van...thank you. :D
Pat

Here you go Pat. Not active like your altums.


http://youtu.be/kSS1xEloHDY

Second Hand Pat
11-20-2015, 10:10 AM
Nice Van, they are nice and beefy and active like discus should be. :D Do they prefer to blow at the peat more so the sand? If yes that indicates the type/color of bottom they would prefer to hunt in. Do you add anything to your RO water?
Pat

DiscusOnly
11-20-2015, 10:25 AM
Pat,

They do blow on the peat looking for pellets and worms. I have some live black worms living in the sand/peat. The 4th discus in the tank (largest) is actually a male Heckel crossed that gets bullied by one of the wild all the time. He is usually pushed to the left side of the tank by this wild. Earlier this summer, I had some plan to play with these Heckel with some cobalt flora but that didn't work out (I found out I only have male cobalt). I still think these 3 heckle are all male.

I do add RO right to tank but not on every water change. There is another additives that I use (forgot the brand off the top my head) that is in liquid form. The EC was around 80 before I messed up my adjustment by using the wrong calibration fluid.

DiscusOnly
11-20-2015, 10:34 AM
Pat,

If I remember correctly, it's this that I use.

http://brightwellaquatics.com/products/blackwatert.php

This may also be contributing to the low pH changes as well.

Second Hand Pat
11-20-2015, 11:24 AM
Pat,

If I remember correctly, it's this that I use.

http://brightwellaquatics.com/products/blackwatert.php

This may also be contributing to the low pH changes as well.

Interesting Van, sounds like a mix of rooibos tea and Discus Essentials.
Pat

plecocicho
11-22-2015, 08:05 PM
Nice wilds, DiscusOnly. How big is their tank, what do you feed them and what is theri wc regime?

Second Hand Pat
11-22-2015, 09:00 PM
So when I started this thread the ph in the Cuipeua tank was 7.18. It is now 6.57. :)
Pat

DJW
11-22-2015, 09:41 PM
Pat,

Do you have decaying plant matter in the tank that might be contributing to the lowering pH, or do you think it is just the switch from tap mix to RO Right + discus essentials. If you are now using water prepared at 50 TDS for the Cuipeua tank, what TDS did you target with tap mix prior to this for that tank? I think it may have been 70ppm from another thread, but I'm not sure.

Second Hand Pat
11-22-2015, 10:29 PM
Hi Dan, just two large pieces of driftwood. The exclusion of tap is definitely responsible for the ph dropping. Remember I observed this in my altum tank first and that tank only has a bit of sand, a sponge filter and a AC 110. I am targeting a TDS of 50 in the WC water. The TDS in the tank is currently 76.
Pat

nikond70s
11-22-2015, 11:03 PM
pat do you have a current vid of your previous batch of altums? wondering how those are turning out. and to me it looks like your previous batch of altums had longer fins and more red it seems.

Second Hand Pat
11-22-2015, 11:17 PM
pat do you have a current vid of your previous batch of altums? wondering how those are turning out. and to me it looks like your previous batch of altums had longer fins and more red it seems.

nikond70s, the best way to compare the two batchs is with vids showing both batches at the same age. On the first batch I had company for the month of December and that stressed the first batch so badly they hide for three months. That really put the fish in a state of decline and the few I have left are culls.
Pat

zchauvin
04-14-2016, 06:21 PM
Any updates on this Pat? How far did this method successfully lower ph?

Second Hand Pat
04-14-2016, 06:24 PM
Any updates on this Pat? How far did this method successfully lower ph?

Works great Zach. The ph drifts slowly over time. You do need to weight your water changes with your ph drift. My water has more buffering capacity then yours I think.
Pat

zchauvin
04-14-2016, 06:29 PM
Works great Zach. The ph drifts slowly over time. You do need to weight your water changes with your ph drift. My water has more buffering capacity then yours I think.
Pat

Are you using the powder form or liquid RO Right. I will be going pick these two up tomorrow to see how it helps.

Second Hand Pat
04-14-2016, 06:57 PM
Power form Zach.

zchauvin
04-16-2016, 09:27 PM
Power form Zach.

Thank you Pat, my order is in. What Kh do you try to obtain to not have large fluctuations between water changes. With my kh so low right now using tap, my ph has ranged from 7.11 to 7.52 over a 24hr period.

Second Hand Pat
04-16-2016, 10:04 PM
Not sure Zach, I suggest you play with different ratios of RO and tap to determine a substrainable kh while maintaining your desired ph. A slow drift of the ph is ok which you will need to offset with water changes.
Pat