Thinking of starting a planted discus tank in a few months

[siidman]

So I had some cichlid tanks when I was younger and recently took my reef tank down since I'm moving to Houston in a few months. I've always thought discus were awesome and briefly thought of doing that before I got into saltwater. But now that I've done a reef tank I don't know if I want to spend the money and the loads of time to do another one so I'm eying a planted discus tank. I have a 180g standard sized tank with all the bells and whistles. I've read that protein skimmers are no good with fresh water and there seem to be mixed reviews on uv sterilizers. And I have 3 Radeon gen 2's for lighting which can be adjusted for kelvin rating and intensity.
So I'm starting to research everything and I know I have a lot to learn, especially about the plants. How labor intensive is the upkeep on a planted tank? How often do you have to work on the plants? I'm used to a lot of work and constant upkeep from doing a reef tank but if it's as much as that, I might just go back to doing a reef set up. And I've been reading about water and I've read that some people use tap water with no problems if they have the correct oh level and do a 50% water change 1 time a week with adult discus. What do you guys think about all that.

[discuspaul]

Welcome to Simply Discus.
Yes, discus do need special attention to remain healthy & thrive, so it's important that you do your homework, and lots of it, before launching yourself into discus-keeping, particularly in a planted set-up, which can, and often does, produce very disappointing results for novices.

Suggest you have a good long read through all the 'stickies' in this Beginner's section, and once you've done that and obtained a good grounding in the 'rules' for successful discus-keeping, we'd be more than happy to answer any questions you may have with getting started properly with the 'kings of the aquarium'.

The most important aspect to discus-keeping is to remember that discus are largely intolerant of poor water quality & conditions, which are not difficult to achieve & maintain, but far less so in a planted set-up - so that should be kept prominently in mind by first-time discus-keepers.
Best of luck to you.

[siidman]

Not sure if that's a standard forum response but if not thanks for your input. Almost any tang is more difficult to keep than any discus. I guarantee that reef tanks are more difficult to keep happy and more labor intensive than any freshwater setup. I'm not knocking them by any means but just asking how much work is involved in keeping a planted discus tank. If it's close to as much work as a reef tank I'll just do another reef tank.

[Jason.M]

From my last few months of research I can tell you that if your doing planted you'll want to get adults. Young discus are next to impossible to grow out healthy in a planted tank. If you do get young discus for a planted tank, quit your job and stay home and do water changes, or just do a reef. Some plants do not like the high temps or the constant supply of clean water. If you do it and get adults you can have a great looking tank with a couple of water changes a week. There are many other things involved in planted tanks and discus which I'm sure others will help you out with. I'm fresh to discus (old to fish keeping) and have received my first batch this past weekend. I went bare bottom for grow out and will add a small amount of substrate, tankmates etc.. after they reach adult size.

[discuspaul]

As a start to your research, it may help to give you a little insight into discus by reading the following '6 Cardinal Rules' for first-time discus-keepers to follow.

Since you seem to have good experience with marine set-ups, as I do also, it may not be difficult for you to accustom yourself easily to providing the extra attention needed to keep discus successfully in a planted environment.

Most importantly is to stock your tank only with adult, or near adult fish - minimum 4" but preferably larger, to avoid growing out stunted or poorly-shaped, and perhaps unhealthy specimens. Ongoing maintenance requires sticking to a large and fairly frequent water change regime, along with a good tank cleansing routine.

And no, my earlier post was not a standard forum response.




D-I-S-C-U-S - 6 CARDINAL RULES FOR NEWBIES TO FOLLOW

First I'd just like to mention once again that discus are hardier than many people think, and are not difficult to keep, so long as one is prepared to accept and adhere to a few key practices that will provide the best chances of success with discus.

This listing is recorded more or less in order of importance:

1) - D - Do your homework well before delving into discus. Read and research all you can beforehand. Googling will certainly help, as well as spending a good deal of time reading the posts and threads on the simplydiscus.com forum, particularly the stickies in their 'Discus Basics' section, which will provide you with much of the material you need to digest.

2) - I - Investigate and learn of the best sources to get your discus stock. Find those breeders &/or importers that are long time, well-experienced, responsible, reputable, and known to supply high quality, healthy, and well-shaped discus. Buy your discus from one of these sources in order to insure that you get off on the best footing possible.
This is the single, most important factor in succeeding with discus.

3) - S - Set up and plan to follow a strict regular routine of fresh water changes, tank wipe-downs and cleansing, vacuuming of wastes, and regular filter and media cleaning, changes, replacements, and maintenance. Be fully prepared for the kind of commitment it takes to produce and maintain the highest water quality and conditions that you can.

4) - C - Carefully consider the type of tank set up you start with. Make sure the tank size is ample enough to start with 5 or 6 discus. Don't be tempted to begin with a tank of less than 55 or 60 gallons, and don't try to justify going smaller by just getting 1, 2, 3, or 4 discus for cost or other reasons.
Wait till you have sufficient resources to get a proper-sized tank, and the suitable size and number of fish to insure continuing good health and harmonious discus sociability.
Do not start with small, undersized, very juvenile fish which have not yet developed a more mature immune system, are more demanding to raise properly, and much more prone to health problems and other issues. Get fish of at least 3.0" in size, preferably larger.

5) - U - Undertake to start off with a bare bottom tank, unless you're getting fully adult fish and have previous good experience with maintaining a planted tank. If you must have some decor, limit yourself to a very thin sand substrate layer, and perhaps a piece of driftwood with just a couple of small plants attached, or one or two potted plants.
Once you gain several months' of experience getting to know your discus' traits & behavior, and your discus get larger, then you may proceed to an aquascaped environment. Feed a varied diet, several times a day, and learn which foods will achieve a nutritious diet, by researching.

6) - S - Simplify. Keep things as simple as you can to start. Don't complicate your start with discus, at least at first, by placing them in a heavily planted environment, using CO2 and a strict fertilization regime. Make sure your tank is fully cycled before adding the fish, and don't be tempted to alter or change the pH of your water, or modify your water conditions and params by using chemicals of any kind. No need to use RO water or adopt any other procedures that would tend to complicate what should be a simple start to your discus launch.

Follow these 'rules', and there's little doubt you will succeed with discus !

[TexMoHoosier]

Planted tanks can be as easy or as difficult as you want them to be, depending on the species of plants you decide to keep. If you've been successful with a reef, than you should have no problem with a planted aquarium. Fortunately, most common, high temp tolerant plants are also low maintenance (such as various swords and anubias). These tend to slow growers and can subsist without fertilizer in the water column or pressurized CO2.

Go to http://www.barrreport.com/. This site has a wealth of information about planted aquariums. Tom Barr is one of the world's top experts when it comes to planted aquariums.

[Filip]

It can be done if you got some experience in plants-light-algae balance on one hand and discus needs on the other hand.

You'll have to focus on discus needs and maintenance and that requires daily cleaning,siphoning,slow and precise feeding and WCs.That takes some time.

Plants that go with discus usually don't require much maintenance and pruning, so that's not time consuming.

[bluelagoon]

Having had a salt water tank.I would say there is more maintenance to a discus tank.Manly keeping up with all the fresh water.

[DISCUS STU]

Good luck in your "Quest for Discus". If you do the research you should find the right recommendations, and you're already up for doing the work so it should work out for you.

I use UV sterilizers in most of my tanks but the majority of my results are achieved through proper maintenance, large water changes, clean filters, etc. As you've already deduced, planted aquariums work best with mature or nearly mature fish. Having tried to raise juveniles in a planted tank I can tell you that they would become sick and had to be treated for bacterial infections on numerous occasions. I won't do that again. Gravel should be avoided as it's a breeding ground for harmful bacteria, sand works best for me in my planted tank. Being in the NJ/NY area I use genuine, authentic, Hudson River Sand taken directly from the river a short distance away from here.

This is purely anecdotal but I've spoken with salt and reef keepers that have tried to keep Discus only to go back to salt and reef, too difficult. I love my Discus but they are only as good as the work I put into it.

[Filip]

I love my Discus but they are only as good as the work I put into it.

Were well said Stu and it couldn't be more true than this.
We can keep them with different levels of maintenance and in different conditions, but the end result of discus will always show that difference.

[Hart24601]

Having just come from a reef tank to discus I would say the work difference depends on the reef and automation. But I had some medical issues and couldn't keep up the work on the reef so I sold it while it was still nice and converted to discus. The discus have been a great deal less work and worry despite a few issues.


Even with a good deal of automation my reef tank was a lot of work. For example my reef I was dosing 2dkh worth of alkalinity per day in sodium carbonate along with a balanced amount of calcium chloride. The dosing pumps added small doses 24x per day to keep the calcium and alk levels up. With growing clams and coral I would have to test alk every day and make small changes in the dosing. I also used kalk that I dosed with a separate peristaltic pump to not only keep ca and alk, but maintain high pH. I would dose 1gallon of that mixture (1dkh worth) that was stored in a 44g brute can and automatically added every hour. This of course had to be monitored to a pH meter and controlled in the event of an overdose. I also dosed amino acids with the 3rd head on the CaCl NaCO dosing computer. The AA's were dosed 2x per day. I used another 2 head squeeze pump with the apex to perform water changes automatically from another brute can. Plus the auto top off systems and RO/DI container and refill system.

I also used carbon dosing, vodka and vinegar mix, set by the apex controller and another peristaltic pump to dose every hour. The flow was provided by several high end pumps and had 110x volume turnover per hour. Had an auto feeder for 5x per day and still fed manually a couple times a day plus spot feeding corals several times a week. Then there was general filter sock maintenance along with the skimmer and such.

If a pump got clogged a bit and I didn't notice that could be enough to lose coral. Or if the alk changed too much or dropped too low. Or if nitrate got too low. Or a million other things.

If you were doing all the above by hand it would be a crazy amount of work, even with automation it was a good deal of daily work. Buy you can have reef tanks that are less work (soft coral, nems, just LPS), but mine is an example of a full blown reef that I wanted to show just as an example.



The tank was selected for reef2reef spotlight:

http://www.reefedition.com/reef-spotlight-bret-hartmans-120g/

[Filip]

Having just come from a reef tank to discus I would say the work difference depends on the reef and automation. But I had some medical issues and couldn't keep up the work on the reef so I sold it while it was still nice and converted to discus. The discus have been a great deal less work and worry despite a few issues.


Even with a good deal of automation my reef tank was a lot of work. For example my reef I was dosing 2dkh worth of alkalinity per day in sodium carbonate along with a balanced amount of calcium chloride. The dosing pumps added small doses 24x per day to keep the calcium and alk levels up. With growing clams and coral I would have to test alk every day and make small changes in the dosing. I also used kalk that I dosed with a separate peristaltic pump to not only keep ca and alk, but maintain high pH. I would dose 1gallon of that mixture (1dkh worth) that was stored in a 44g brute can and automatically added every hour. This of course had to be monitored to a pH meter and controlled in the event of an overdose. I also dosed amino acids with the 3rd head on the CaCl NaCO dosing computer. The AA's were dosed 2x per day. I used another 2 head squeeze pump with the apex to perform water changes automatically from another brute can. Plus the auto top off systems and RO/DI container and refill system.

I also used carbon dosing, vodka and vinegar mix, set by the apex controller and another peristaltic pump to dose every hour. The flow was provided by several high end pumps and had 110x volume turnover per hour. Had an auto feeder for 5x per day and still fed manually a couple times a day plus spot feeding corals several times a week. Then there was general filter sock maintenance along with the skimmer and such.

If a pump got clogged a bit and I didn't notice that could be enough to lose coral. Or if the alk changed too much or dropped too low. Or if nitrate got too low. Or a million other things.

If you were doing all the above by hand it would be a crazy amount of work, even with automation it was a good deal of daily work. Buy you can have reef tanks that are less work (soft coral, nems, just LPS), but mine is an example of a full blown reef that I wanted to show just as an example.



The tank was selected for reef2reef spotlight:

http://www.reefedition.com/reef-spotlight-bret-hartmans-120g/

That's a real work of art reef you had there Hart.TFS that beautiful reef tank.
It must be kindergarten for you now ,switching to discus :)

[pitdogg2]

Not sure if that's a standard forum response but if not thanks for your input. Almost any tang is more difficult to keep than any discus. I guarantee that reef tanks are more difficult to keep happy and more labor intensive than any freshwater setup. I'm not knocking them by any means but just asking how much work is involved in keeping a planted discus tank. If it's close to as much work as a reef tank I'll just do another reef tank.

how much water do you change daily in that there tank set up you speak of ? 60% 80% ?

[strawberryblonde]

Not sure if that's a standard forum response but if not thanks for your input. Almost any tang is more difficult to keep than any discus. I guarantee that reef tanks are more difficult to keep happy and more labor intensive than any freshwater setup. I'm not knocking them by any means but just asking how much work is involved in keeping a planted discus tank. If it's close to as much work as a reef tank I'll just do another reef tank.

I've actually found that it's more difficult to raise and keep a healthy discus than any tang I've run into. Also found that a reef tank was, in many ways, easier to deal with than a planted tank with discus in it.

Then again, that's only my own experience, your mileage may vary. =)

So for me, I don't have a fully planted tank. I'm in the process of growing out 2 batches of juveniles in my big tank so for now I've limited it to a HUGE sword plant, plenty of vals and crypts and one medium sword. Since growing out in a planted tank is a lot more work and much more iffy on results, I've also placed the plants into squishy pots so that I can move them around and clean under them.

Once the fish are full grown adults (over 18 months old and larger than 7") I'll consider fully planting the tank and adding driftwood.

Here are the key things I've learned with discus and plants.

1) Leave plenty of space somewhere on the substrate for the discus to graze and hunt for food. They are slow eaters and will pick all day long at the substrate looking for tidbits.

2) Be careful with the design and height of plants. Discus will hide in and behind them if they can and you may end up having to scout around the tank just to see them. The fewer hiding places they have, the bolder and more friendly they become - even learning to eat from your hands and to allow you to pet them.

3) Buy slow growing, heat tolerant, low maintenance plants. They are going to get disturbed much more than in most tanks so they need to be able to put up with the harassment.

4) Even though there are plants to absorb some of the nitrates in the tank, they also use up valuable minerals that discus require for good health and they do nothing to reduce pathogens in the water column. For those reasons, plan to do daily water changes for juvenile discus and at least one HUGE water change per week for adult discus. Personally, I still do every other day HUGE water changes even when mine are adults. They let you know pretty quickly when the water quality is slipping... becoming skittish, darker in color, less active, hiding more and not as quick to attack food. I have never been able to get away with fewer than every 3 days water changes without my discus suffering.

I'd be remiss if I didn't also mention that a GORGEOUS discus tank doesn't necessarily have to have plants in it. Some of the most breathtaking ones I've seen contain artistic arrangements of driftwood with just a few anubias clinging to the driftwood. The staining of the water with tanins from the driftwood creates a natural looking discus biotope that's pretty danged awesome.

[Hart24601]

I should add that I have found discus to be more difficult than many salt fish I have tried. The handful of tangs I have kept were pretty easy, but I only kept guys like purple and bristletooths in general. The salty fish that I have had to train off live food have been more work, but overall I think discus are more challenging than common salty fish - although both go south fast if someone doesn't read up enough! My above comments are only applicable to that tank (and similar systems) in the link. One nice thing is with discus the tank is 100% about the discus for most people. In a reef generally the care is more about the corals with fish 2nd and other inverts 3rd and it's hard to balance all those at once.

The biggest thing keeping discus have over salt systems is how cheap and easy it is to perform waterchanges relative to salt systems where the is not only the cost of salt, but matching and keeping salinity in a narrow range. As this forum is proof, just doing large W/C without having fancy filters can and does produce huge beautiful discus.

I have not gotten into breeding discus, so I can't comment on that. I would can imagine doing 2x 90% waterchanges on growout tanks takes most people a good deal of time. Although with the reef I had it wasn't only the time but what happens if you were not meticulous in the details.