How to use a microscope

[Spike Cover]

All,

I'm new to Discus but not to fish. I've been a fish geek most of my life but have spent the past 20 years keeping Koi and learning (and teaching) about their health. From looking over the posts on this board, I see that the Discus hobby has many of the same problems that I've seen in Koi, e.g., people trying to treat sick fish w/o knowing what the problem really is. So in an effort to give back a bit for all the information I've found on this board, I thought I'd post a little about how to use a microscope. This is certainly not an exhaustive treatise but is more the essence of it. You'll need to substitute "Discus" for "Koi" and "tank water" for "pond water" in the blurb below, but other than that it should work. BTW this is something that I wrote for the K.O.I. Guide book (a quick reference guide) for Koi Organisation International.

You can just about spend any amount of money for a scope but in the neighborhood of $150 should get you something very decent. If you're a shopper, you can pick up something used for even less.

If you all find this helpful, I can post some info on various parasites, i.e., what they look like, how they move, etc. If this is "old news," I'll just go back to lurking ;).

Spike


92345

[DJW]

I have an old oil immersion scope that works fine but it would be nice to have one that takes pictures. It can be frustrating sometimes trying to decide which medication to use, and looking under a microscope can solve the mystery.

Microscopic pictures of various parasites are great if you have some. Identification can still be tricky though. For example, there are zillions of critters that have flagella... its not necessarily hexamita.

[Spike Cover]

I somewhat started in the "middle" with this thread. It should really go like this:

Something looks "off" with the fish (fish farmers call them ADRs, i.e., Ain't Doin' Right).
From the clinical signs (same as symptoms in humans), a person should then do what's called a Differential Diagnosis (I'll abbreviate that "DD") which is a list of all the things that might be causing the problem based on the signs.
From the DD, the person then proceeds to what are termed "rule outs" which just means that they try to rule out the possibilities on their list.
Example, if one of the possibilities of the DD was parasites, they could do a scrape and scope. If they're decent at that process, they would rule out (or confirm) the existence of parasites.

The value of this should be obvious: if your fish don't have parasites, you shouldn't treat them for parasites. If they do have bugs, you should be able to confirm which parasite(s) are present and only treat for those particular ones.

This is somewhat different from what dealers may do, which is to presume their new fish have all common parasites and they treat them accordingly, i.e., they treat for ciliated bugs (Ich, Trichodina, Chilodonella, etc.) then for flukes (skin and gill types). This is harder on the fish but is more practical than scraping and scoping every fish. I think I read on this board that at least one poster recommended shotgun treatments of all incoming fish (this may have been just for wilds... can't remember).

Once a person knows what parasites are normal or traditionally found on Discus, this can be helpful. If they can all be seen at 40x thru your scope, you usually won't need to go to a higher power. If however Discus get costia (ichthyobodo), you'll need to bump up the magnification to 100x. I've never seen hexamita so I'll have to look into that one... my books say it's about the size of costia, i.e., less than about 20 µm. And, it says it's often internal so you'd have to get a feces sample and scope that (rather than a skin or gill scrape).

Another thing is that many of the parasites are diagnosed in large part on the way they move. Flukes look and move kind of like inch worms if they can get a hold otherwise they just extend and contract, while Ich are round, have a horseshoe shaped nucleus and just slowly rotate. I'm guessing that Discus don't get fish lice or anchor worm. If that's correct, we won't have to worry about those, they can be seen w/o a scope anyway.

I'll try to post some pix and maybe some videos or links so that you can see what the bugs look like and how they move. Here are some pix to start.


92351

Spike

[Jack L]

i think this is a great idea. going by symptoms alone, it really is a guessing game, so we are forced to treated with broad range remedy. what is the minimum quality scope that should be considered?

[DJW]

Amscope makes good scopes. What you need is a "high power" student microscope that goes at least to 400x, which is enough for most diagnostic efforts except the identification of bacteria. For bacteria you need 1000x and special stains. A gram stain kit can help determine which antibiotic is more likely to be effective.

[Spike Cover]

From my personal experience I'd say you want a compound scope, with 40X and 100X minimum resolution. They usually come with at least 3 lenses on a turret so you'll likely get 400X along with it. If you're like me, you can't use that lens very well (I have floaters in my eyes and they reflect in the scope.) It essential to have a light with the scope, LED is good but anything that's built in is okay. Then you need some way to cut the light down so you don't wash out the image. There's a ring with holes under my cheap scope but I also bought a light dimmer that I attach to the light cord and that works well. Next I'd suggest you get at least a mechanical stage adapter. This will let you scan the slides with decent control. BTW, if you're doing a mucus scrape, I've found that along the edge of the cover slip with which you've done the scrape, to be most productive, i.e., that's where you're most likely to find bugs (parasites).

AmScope in Irvine, CA carries tons of new scopes, and some at pretty reasonable prices. Here's one that's like what I have (except I don't have the 1000X capability - that's where you'd use oil immersion to keep the stray light from messing up the image).http://www.amscope.com/student-microscopes/high-power-student-microscopes/40x-1000x-veterinary-compound-microscope-with-mechanical-stage.html It's $140.

People I know say they've found used scopes for under $100 but that takes some looking.

I've used this simple monocular scope for almost 20 years and it's served me well. I've found a LOT of parasites with it.


92352

Spike

[Spike Cover]

I'm trying to figure out how to post videos as watching the bugs move is really helpful in diagnosing what the darned things are.

Spike

[Spike Cover]

Can some of you tell me what are the common parasites found on Discus?

TIA,
Spike

[Spike Cover]

Amscope makes good scopes. What you need is a "high power" student microscope that goes at least to 400x, which is enough for most diagnostic efforts except the identification of bacteria. For bacteria you need 1000x and special stains. A gram stain kit can help determine which antibiotic is more likely to be effective.

I've found that you can diagnose most (Koi) parasites with 100X. You can actually see motile rods (twitching bacteria) at 400X but you can't tell what they are. You need a lab (or a bunch of stains and grow-out dishes) to determine what the bug is. But that's not nearly as important as what kills it. For that you need sensitivity testing. That's best done by a lab unless this is already "your thing," i.e., you've worked with this sort of stuff before. But I've found that by the time you get sensitivity testing back from a lab, the fish is frequently dead unless you intervened before that! If you suspect bacteria, this is one time I advocate cut-and-try (for the reason I just gave). If what you try isn't having a positive effect in a few days, I'd recommend switching to another antibiotic.

All this said, if you've got a special fish involved or a bunch of fish, you may want to send a swab off to the lab JIC your cut and try doesn't work and you still have time to save the fish.

[Spike Cover]

Does anybody inject antibiotics in Discus? Or has anyone ever heard of this?

Spike

[Spike Cover]

I should have written "treatise" (instead of "tretus"... spelled phonetically) in the first post. But I'm an engineer and everyone know they can spell much of anything (groan). Sorry.

Spike

PS, for some reason the forum won't let me edit the message. Does anyone know why?

[Second Hand Pat]

I should have written "treatise" (instead of "tretus"... spelled phonetically) in the first post. But I'm an engineer and everyone know they can spell much of anything (groan). Sorry.

Spike

PS, for some reason the forum won't let me edit the message. Does anyone know why?

Hi Spike, I fixed your first post. You only have a 12 hour (or so) window to edit a post.
Pat

[Spike Cover]

Pat,

Thanks and thanks for the explanation.

Spike

[rickztahone]

Cool thread Spike. I have personally only used a scope once to diagnose a discus illness. It was flagellates we saw under the scope and I tried to take pictures of it but wasn't very successful. It made the guess work less sketchy though and it was a tool that I knew would be very handy for any person in the hobby. You can sometimes find these on ebay or craiglist for cheap.

[Jack L]

Does anybody inject antibiotics in Discus? Or has anyone ever heard of this?

Spike

i saw it in an old book i have, i think it was adventures with discus.

the Ds i lost 20 years ago, wouldn't have even thought of it probably. the one i lost this round died unexpected from ich and fast, so no time.

[Jack L]

From my personal experience I'd say you want a compound scope, with 40X and 100X minimum resolution. They usually come with at least 3 lenses on a turret so you'll likely get 400X along with it. If you're like me, you can't use that lens very well (I have floaters in my eyes and they reflect in the scope.) It essential to have a light with the scope, LED is good but anything that's built in is okay. Then you need some way to cut the light down so you don't wash out the image. There's a ring with holes under my cheap scope but I also bought a light dimmer that I attach to the light cord and that works well. Next I'd suggest you get at least a mechanical stage adapter. This will let you scan the slides with decent control. BTW, if you're doing a mucus scrape, I've found that along the edge of the cover slip with which you've done the scrape, to be most productive, i.e., that's where you're most likely to find bugs (parasites).

AmScope in Irvine, CA carries tons of new scopes, and some at pretty reasonable prices. Here's one that's like what I have (except I don't have the 1000X capability - that's where you'd use oil immersion to keep the stray light from messing up the image).http://www.amscope.com/student-microscopes/high-power-student-microscopes/40x-1000x-veterinary-compound-microscope-with-mechanical-stage.html It's $140.

People I know say they've found used scopes for under $100 but that takes some looking.

I've used this simple monocular scope for almost 20 years and it's served me well. I've found a LOT of parasites with it.


92352

Spike

ok, so those "digital" ones i see are junk then i guess

i don't know anything about them, but it could be an interesting project for me/son.

[Jack L]

would you consider somethign like this?
http://www.amazon.com/AmScope-M150C-I-40X-1000X-Biological-Microscope/dp/B00AM5XB5O/ref=lp_393249011_1_2?s=photo&ie=UTF8&qid=1449203483&sr=1-2

sidenote...i seriously can't believe i'm considering buying a microscope to look at fish slime....

[rickztahone]

would you consider somethign like this?
http://www.amazon.com/AmScope-M150C-I-40X-1000X-Biological-Microscope/dp/B00AM5XB5O/ref=lp_393249011_1_2?s=photo&ie=UTF8&qid=1449203483&sr=1-2

sidenote...i seriously can't believe i'm considering buying a microscope to look at fish slime....

correction, fish FECES ;)

[DJW]

would you consider somethign like this?
http://www.amazon.com/AmScope-M150C-I-40X-1000X-Biological-Microscope/dp/B00AM5XB5O/ref=lp_393249011_1_2?s=photo&ie=UTF8&qid=1449203483&sr=1-2

sidenote...i seriously can't believe i'm considering buying a microscope to look at fish slime....

That one doesn't have the bells & whistles, but should be enough for the poop examination you can't wait to perform. And the price is right.

I would think of that scope as having 400x magnification in terms of its resolution. Using the 25x eyepiece with a 40x objective lens is just zooming without an increase in clarity.

[Spike Cover]

would you consider somethign like this?
http://www.amazon.com/AmScope-M150C-I-40X-1000X-Biological-Microscope/dp/B00AM5XB5O/ref=lp_393249011_1_2?s=photo&ie=UTF8&qid=1449203483&sr=1-2

sidenote...i seriously can't believe i'm considering buying a microscope to look at fish slime....

Hi Jack (you never want to say that on an airplane:p),

That scope is okay but I'd recommend getting one with a mechanical stage or a mechanical stage adapter. I'll post a pic of a stage adapter. Also see the #6 post in this thread (my scope with mechanical adapter).

92379

The reason for this gizmo is that it lets you scan your slide with better control and in an orderly manner, i.e., you can move back and forth then move to the side a bit and then back and forth again (and so on). If you position the slide and cover slip so that they are lined up with the stage (not askew), you can easily move right along the edge of the cover slip which is where you'll likely find the most bugs (parasites)... this presumes you're doing a scrape and scope of the slime coat. If you're just doing a scan of fish poop under the cover slip, a mechanical stage still lets you do that systematically so that you're less likely to miss something.

This is usually not all that much fun but knowing what you're dealing with, i.e., identifying the problem, allows you to target your treatments. A sick fish doesn't need to be bombarded with a bunch of chemicals if it's not going to help. Once you figure out what's wrong, you can treat for that. In these cases, you're the vet and nothing beats knowing what you're doing.

I'm still trying to figure out how to post videos. I just found a post by Pat that tells how to post 'em on YouTube then link. I'm thinking that should work (when I get time).

Spike

[Spike Cover]

ok, so those "digital" ones i see are junk then i guess

i don't know anything about them, but it could be an interesting project for me/son.

If you want to save pix, a digital scope (or dig adapter) is good for that. I've just pulled the eye piece and stuck my digital camera up to the tube of a scope and actually taken some decent pix. You can see if you're in focus on the screen on the back of (most) the camera. You can also (and I have) take video that way. Unless you're wanting to share, a pic is not all that important. If you can ID the various parasites, that's the main thing. Again, then you know what to treat for. Or alternatively, rule out parasites and not have to put your fish thru a chemical treatment. A good fishy vet I know always says, "A chance to treat, is a chance to kill." Good advice in my book.

Some folks like to have super scoobie doo equipment and I'll admit, a binocular scope with a real mechanical stage is typically a nice thing to have. And if you've got the money, it's more fun to use. I've lusted after a nice scope for years but the one I have already has never failed to get the job done and there's always something else that I want more. Maybe some day.....

Spike

PS, I actually bought a digital scope but rarely use it.

[Jack L]

well i thinking this microscope idea could support the whole educational aspect of the current project for kids. i'm guessing we could also just look at the water and see stuff too, but i am assuming that would work. i can't remember ever using one.

[DJW]

The most fun the kids will have with a microscope is looking at some algae scraped off the glass, or from pond scum. There are all sorts of little creatures swimming around in it.

[Spike Cover]

Folks,

It's true that kids (even big kids) can have fun with a scope but I was hoping to encourage the Discus fans to consider using one to help diagnose sick fish, especially when parasites are suspected. If you're successful just once, you'll be "hooked" and realize what a valuable tool a scope can be. You won't be hitting the fish with formalin if they have flukes, or Prazi if they have costia. You'll be able to target your treatments and therefore have them be effective. I'm guessing that the last thing a sick fish needs is to be bombarded with chemicals that aren't doing anything for their problem.

I'm still looking for good videos of parasites. Actually I already have a bunch but don't know if I can get permission to post them.

I've seen on this forum that Discus get flukes and Ich, but it would be helpful if you all would chime in with other common parasites that show up on Ds. This is so I can look for, and hopefully post, helpful parasite videos.

Spike

[Jack L]

Folks,

It's true that kids (even big kids) can have fun with a scope but I was hoping to encourage the Discus fans to consider using one to help diagnose sick fish, especially when parasites are suspected. If you're successful just once, you'll be "hooked" and realize what a valuable tool a scope can be. You won't be hitting the fish with formalin if they have flukes, or Prazi if they have costia. You'll be able to target your treatments and therefore have them be effective. I'm guessing that the last thing a sick fish needs is to be bombarded with chemicals that aren't doing anything for their problem.

I'm still looking for good videos of parasites. Actually I already have a bunch but don't know if I can get permission to post them.

I've seen on this forum that Discus get flukes and Ich, but it would be helpful if you all would chime in with other common parasites that show up on Ds. This is so I can look for, and hopefully post, helpful parasite videos.

Spike

i think it makes a TON of sense to use to diagnosis too. this board would be a goo places to some how tos and actual pics of what to look for. i have some old book about all fish parasites, but something less textbook would be better.

i has an otto die the other day, could have looked for "something"

that "white pimple" thing shows up on this board, that people call a "pimple" but is not. maybe a scope would enlighten us.

[Spike Cover]

Here's a skin fluke video (courtesy of my friend Duncan Griffiths):


https://youtu.be/vk2yMrsSJq0

Sorry I can't figure out how to embed the video but if you follow the link, you'll see it.
I'll try to find and post more as I have time.

Spike

[DJW]

Spike,

Here is a list of the usual suspects:

EXTERNAL PARASITES

Flukes

Gyrodactylids
Dactylogyrids


Skin and gill flagellates

Costia
Cryptobia
Oodinium
Oodinioides sp.


Parasitic Ciliates

Ichthyophthirius
Chilodonella
Tetrahymena
Trichodina


INTERNAL DISEASE ORGANISMS

Worms

Capillaria
Camallanus

Internal Flagellates

Hexamita
Spironucleus
Trichomonas
Bodomonas
Cryptobia
Protoopalina

This list is from Dieter Untergasser's Discus Health. TFH Publications, 1991.

[Spike Cover]

Thanks. I don't know why I didn't thing of Untergasser as I have that book.
I just put up a YouTube video of a skin fluke. Gill flukes look pretty much the same except they are don't have a baby fluke inside as they are egg layers. Plus they have 4 eye spots at the end opposite the hooks.
I can probably find videos for Costia, Trichodina, Chilodonella, and Ich. Don't know about the others. But maybe Tetrahymena. I have some books with line drawings of many of these plus I can probably find some still pix shot thru scopes. If I can't find videos, maybe that's the next best thing.
That said, knowing how the various bugs move is a real help in diagnosis.

Spike

[Spike Cover]

From my personal experience I'd say you want a compound scope, with 40X and 100X minimum resolution. They usually come with at least 3 lenses on a turret so you'll likely get 400X along with it. If you're like me, you can't use that lens very well (I have floaters in my eyes and they reflect in the scope.) It essential to have a light with the scope, LED is good but anything that's built in is okay. Then you need some way to cut the light down so you don't wash out the image. There's a ring with holes under my cheap scope but I also bought a light dimmer that I attach to the light cord and that works well. Next I'd suggest you get at least a mechanical stage adapter. This will let you scan the slides with decent control. BTW, if you're doing a mucus scrape, I've found that along the edge of the cover slip with which you've done the scrape, to be most productive, i.e., that's where you're most likely to find bugs (parasites).

AmScope in Irvine, CA carries tons of new scopes, and some at pretty reasonable prices. Here's one that's like what I have (except I don't have the 1000X capability - that's where you'd use oil immersion to keep the stray light from messing up the image).http://www.amscope.com/student-microscopes/high-power-student-microscopes/40x-1000x-veterinary-compound-microscope-with-mechanical-stage.html It's $140.

People I know say they've found used scopes for under $100 but that takes some looking.

I've used this simple monocular scope for almost 20 years and it's served me well. I've found a LOT of parasites with it.


92352

Spike

Here's an equivalent for over $30 less ($108): http://www.amscope.com/microscopes/40x-400x-student-compound-microscope-with-mechanical-stage.html

With the extra money, you can buy some slides and cover slips :).

Spike

[DJW]

Here is a microscope video with British narrator, elevator music and everything:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAPVLd4w4xE

[Spike Cover]

Here is a microscope video with British narrator, elevator music and everything:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAPVLd4w4xE

My work here is done <LOL>

Spike

[Jack L]

92474

[rickztahone]

Here is a microscope video with British narrator, elevator music and everything:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAPVLd4w4xE

That is a cool video, thanks for sharing it.

[Jack L]

got a scope, sample use above, awaiting slides for a scrape of fish
photo was from just holding camera like you said.