Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate test

[Luke in Phoenix]

Question to test: Is an algae scrubber a powerful enough water cleanser to successfully grow out fry with limited water changes?

Main elements of observation:
- Health
- Growth rate


This is the second test of growing out fry with an algae scrubber and minimal water changes (less than 5% / week). I’m planning on this being more of a long term test over 6 months.
This is the first test link: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?121677-How-to-grow-out-large-fry-experiment-How-many-water-changes-needed


These fry hatched on 12-1-2015. I combined the eggs from a red dragon pair (in pics) and used the red turquoise male as a foster parent. He measures 5.5” This is the first time I tried using a foster parent and think I definitely could have gotten a higher success rate with more fry after lessons learned but it looks like there will still end up being about 60 fry which is good enough for me for this test.


I did not split the fry into a control group because I do not have an extra tank right now but I don’t think it will be that critical because there is plenty of published data on typical discus growth rates to use as a comparison.


The fry are in a 40 gallon tank. There is also an 80 gallon display tank with 9 adult discus. Both tanks are connected to a 20 gallon refugium with an upflow algae scrubber in it. Other filtration includes a canister filter, sock filters and UV Sterilizers.


Other notes:
Parents spawned in this setup. Fry hatched in this setup. I have only changed about 50% of the water over the last 3 months. All fish appear and behave like super healthy discus.

I add RO water to replace evaporated water. Minerals are added to the water to control TDS.

Starting fry = about 60 from my estimates.

The algae scrubber could be made larger or smaller for any particular setup.

Sorry about the lower quality pics. Pics usually have date in lower left corner. Sometimes I put notes on them.

KH = 3
TDS = 340
Nitrate = 0


We’ll see how it goes!
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[Luke in Phoenix]

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[rickztahone]

Eagerly awaiting results. I don't mean to be harsh, but it looks like you may have been running this setup with the parents shown here? They are not full potential sized discus, to my eyes of course

[Luke in Phoenix]

Eagerly awaiting results. I don't mean to be harsh, but it looks like you may have been running this setup with the parents shown here? They are not full potential sized discus, to my eyes of course

You're right. These were a few of the discus I got a few years back when I first got into discus. I'm surprised the male made it to 5.5" looking back. I treated them like I did my other fish with a few flakes and pellets once or twice a day. Newbie discus learning curve!

[mkng07]

Thanks for doing the experiements with the algae scrubber. I've read a lot of articles on-line about them and have seen great results with that being used with adult discus but never to grow out fry.

I followed your first post with the fry grow out and Im sorry if I missed this but whats the difference between this second experiemnt and the first one? Didn't you use the algae scrubber on the first experiement as well?

Again, thanks for taking the time to share your results with your first experiment. I enjoyed it very much. Its very nice to see another point of view on doing things in the hobby especially when they are backed with factual results.

[Jack L]

will be watching, i bought parts for DIY scrubber, have yet to assemble.

[Rudustin]

Will someone please explain what an algae scrubber is to those of us that have never used one or even know what it is? Please.

[Tshethar]

Here is a good presentation from a friend of the forum (uarujoey, aka "the king of diy..."): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGLnBvDkaO0

Similar in concept to using Pothos plants, water wisteria or similar in the tank or refugium, primarily as a nitrogen sink...

[Jack L]

quick description. a contraption that intentionally grows algae to remove impurities from water by turning it into algea. there are lots of DIY plans and ones you can buy that seem silly expensive for how easy DIY plans look.

most i've seen use fabric mesh for algae to grow on, they you hit it with bright light and bubbles or expose to air, and nature does the rest.

they are called algae turf scrubbers too

lot more details here
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/

[Luke in Phoenix]

Thanks for doing the experiements with the algae scrubber. I've read a lot of articles on-line about them and have seen great results with that being used with adult discus but never to grow out fry.

I followed your first post with the fry grow out and Im sorry if I missed this but whats the difference between this second experiemnt and the first one? Didn't you use the algae scrubber on the first experiement as well?

Again, thanks for taking the time to share your results with your first experiment. I enjoyed it very much. Its very nice to see another point of view on doing things in the hobby especially when they are backed with factual results.


The first test was with only 7 fry and the adults for a little less than 2 months. I think it had some pretty good results but it was with an arguably small number of fry for a limited time.

This test will be over 6 months with a number of fish closer to a typical grow out with about 60 fry (I haven't gotten an exact number yet) although I know some batches can easily be over 100 I'm not really a pro breeder so this is decent for me (and maybe the typical hobbyist?).
The connected display tank has 9 adult discus.

I've also removed the gravel in the display tank and other biological filters. I think this will help me to push the algae scrubber harder and keep Nitrates as close to 0 as possible. I'm sure that at some point, 60+ fish will overpower it.


Glad to take the time to share the results. I would have posted this test a little earlier but was pretty busy.



One other thought, I've turned on a CO2 injector I will use to also try to get better growth from the algae scrubber, hence cleaner water.

[Luke in Phoenix]

Will someone please explain what an algae scrubber is to those of us that have never used one or even know what it is? Please.

The theory of an Algae Scrubber or Algae Turf Scrubber (ATS) is that it filters everything bad from your aquarium water just as it would in nature in a stream or lake. We are able to measure a few of the "bad" things it filters like Nitrates and Phosphates to see how effectively it is cleaning the water. All of the pollutants are easily removed from the water just by removing some of the older growing algae from the tank.

Originally invented by Walter Adey, PhD. (he wrote an interesting book on the topic called Dynamic Aquaria: http://www.walteradey.com/ ) they've only recently begun to become popular and effective with the many modern changes made to the design by hobbyist trial and error and posting results.

I also highly recommend the book "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" by Diana Walstad. Thanks to DC Discus for referring that one to me!

[brewmaster15]

Luke,
Looking very interesting, please keep up the update posts... Algae scrubbers have always intrigued me. In commercial applications many plants are used similar to the algae scrubbers to remove toxins from waste treatment sludge (phytoremediation) , they can then dispose of it... Water Hyacinth is one.

very interesting article here.. http://article.sapub.org/10.5923.j.re.20120205.04.html
al

[Luke in Phoenix]

Luke,
Looking very interesting, please keep up the update posts... Algae scrubbers have always intrigued me. In commercial applications many plants are used similar to the algae scrubbers to remove toxins from waste treatment sludge (phytoremediation) , they can then dispose of it... Water Hyacinth is one.

very interesting article here.. http://article.sapub.org/10.5923.j.re.20120205.04.html
al


Awesome article Al, thanks for sharing!

I actually tried water hyacinth and water lettuce in my refugium a couple years ago with the same concept in mind; Removal of waste like Nitrates, phosphates, etc... as stated in the article:
"Water hyacinth without reduction in growth have high removal rates for iron (Fe), zinc (Zn), copper (Cu), chromium (Cr), cadmium (Cd), manganese (Mn), nickel (Ni), mercury (Hg) and arsenic (As)[143-146]] from aqueous solutions besides absorbing organic substances such as phenol, formaldehyde, formic, acetic and oxalic acids [144-146]. Liao and Chang[146] found that the absorption capacity for water hyacinth, as 0.24 kg/ha for Cd, 5.42 kg/ha for lead (Pb)..."

Who wouldn't want this for their aquarium water!?


I found the water hyacinth to be super effective but it grows very tall and I quickly ran out of space for it under the tank. I think it would actually be more efficient than an algae scrubber if you had the space/height to grow it.
I'm not sure why but the Water Lettuce never really grew that well for me so I set out on the Algae scrubber adventure. Super easy to grow with limited space.

Either way, I agree the principles are all the same. Use some type of very fast growing plants / algae to filter the water.


As a side note: Apparently the bristlenose plecos in my tank like the algae "scrubbed" water so much they spawned a few weeks ago for the first time and now there are about 17 or so pleco fry that have joined the discus fry.
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[nc0gnet0]

Its an interesting concept. I have always been a fan of algae scrubbers.


lot more details here
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/

I am glad you included this link. This is where most the credit is due, and hopefully Joey gave some credit to santamonica (used to be a member here).

I have some questions for you:

1) Uv-What size and what is the flow rate?
2) C02- What level are you maintaining your ph at?
3) What intervals will you be updating your thread at?
4) Are you going to monitor and post your pH and nitrates readings in your updates?

Not to be a killjoy here but you already have some small issues, I can't get a look at all of your fry, but can see several that have dorsal fin deformities.

good luck!
-Rick

[Luke in Phoenix]

Its an interesting concept. I have always been a fan of algae scrubbers.

/

I am glad you included this link. This is where most the credit is due, and hopefully Joey gave some credit to santamonica (used to be a member here).

I have some questions for you:

1) Uv-What size and what is the flow rate?
2) C02- What level are you maintaining your ph at?
3) What intervals will you be updating your thread at?
4) Are you going to monitor and post your pH and nitrates readings in your updates?

Not to be a killjoy here but you already have some small issues, I can't get a look at all of your fry, but can see several that have dorsal fin deformities.

good luck!
-Rick


1) Aqua Advantage 15 watt sterilizer with an estimated 100 gph flow rate and a 25 watt Pentair Emperor Smart UV Sterilizer with an estimated flow rate of 300 gph
Good question, I think it is important to keep the flow rates low enough that the UV actually performs as a 'Sterlizer'.

2) I started injecting CO2 directly into the sump to prevent the algae from consuming all of the KH as a carbon source. Although this may be a benefit to some people to have KH reduced? I don't inject that much CO2 (about a bubble a second) and because there is so much water flow it doesn't really effect PH that much
3) I don't know... suggestions?
4) I will definitely monitor the nitrates. It's at 0 right now. I don't really monitor the ph that much... mostly the TDS and KH values but the PH seems to stay around the 7-7.7 range.

I'm planning on the standard cull rate of fish with deformities. I've seen 20% used often for a culling percentage. Let me know if you think otherwise. I haven't culled any yet but it will be something to watch for. I keep you updated on the culls.

I'll try to get some better photos of the fry.

[MattArmstrong]

2) I started injecting CO2 directly into the sump to prevent the algae from consuming all of the KH as a carbon source. Although this may be a benefit to some people to have KH reduced? I don't inject that much CO2 (about a bubble a second) and because there is so much water flow it doesn't really effect PH that much

Luke, watching with interest!

Adding CO2 to the mix caught my eye, for a few reasons. I'll list them out, but please take it all with a grain of salt.

If Water Hyacinth grew so successfully for you in the past, why abandon it? Seems like periodic pruning is simpler than CO2, right?

If the CO2 isn't impacting pH much, I wonder if it doing much at all. :p

If the method requires CO2, it is less approachable. In the end, it seems like a method that works without CO2 would have a marketing advantage. :D

My tap is KH=2, and it doesn't take much for plants to consume that down to zero. Water Lettuce solves the CO2 problem, but you mentioned that you had issues growing it in the past. I've been able to grow it, but from my experience it grows so fast (due to not being CO2 limited) that it quickly becomes limited by some other nutrient (and the limiting nutrient need not be Nitrates). I've had water lettuce explode in my tanks, then slow down, with new leaves showing deformed growth, all while Nitrates were not near zero. So some other nutrient was limited -- most likely P or K or some trace element...sure enough when I dosed the whole gamut of standard aquarium plant fertilizers the water lettuce would take off again.

[John_Nicholson]

With proper water, genetics, and care the cull rate should be more like 5% in my experience.

-john

[nc0gnet0]

1) Aqua Advantage 15 watt sterilizer with an estimated 100 gph flow rate and a 25 watt Pentair Emperor Smart UV Sterilizer with an estimated flow rate of 300 gph
Good question, I think it is important to keep the flow rates low enough that the UV actually performs as a 'Sterlizer'.

2) I started injecting CO2 directly into the sump to prevent the algae from consuming all of the KH as a carbon source. Although this may be a benefit to some people to have KH reduced? I don't inject that much CO2 (about a bubble a second) and because there is so much water flow it doesn't really effect PH that much
3) I don't know... suggestions?
4) I will definitely monitor the nitrates. It's at 0 right now. I don't really monitor the ph that much... mostly the TDS and KH values but the PH seems to stay around the 7-7.7 range.

I'm planning on the standard cull rate of fish with deformities. I've seen 20% used often for a culling percentage. Let me know if you think otherwise. I haven't culled any yet but it will be something to watch for. I keep you updated on the culls.

I'll try to get some better photos of the fry.

UV Bulb (Watts) / gph to Control Bacteria / gph to Control Parasites

4 ......... .........................60 ............................. N/A
8 ...................................120............ ................ N/A
15................................. 230............................. 75
18................................. 300............................. 100
25................................. 475............................. 150
30................................. 525............................. 175
40................................. 940..............................300
65................................. 1700............................ 570
80................................. 1885............................ 625

Additionally you need to turn over the total volume of water (both tanks plus sump volume) 4x an hour.

[Luke in Phoenix]

Luke, watching with interest!

Adding CO2 to the mix caught my eye, for a few reasons. I'll list them out, but please take it all with a grain of salt.

If Water Hyacinth grew so successfully for you in the past, why abandon it? Seems like periodic pruning is simpler than CO2, right?

If the CO2 isn't impacting pH much, I wonder if it doing much at all. :p

If the method requires CO2, it is less approachable. In the end, it seems like a method that works without CO2 would have a marketing advantage. :D

My tap is KH=2, and it doesn't take much for plants to consume that down to zero. Water Lettuce solves the CO2 problem, but you mentioned that you had issues growing it in the past. I've been able to grow it, but from my experience it grows so fast (due to not being CO2 limited) that it quickly becomes limited by some other nutrient (and the limiting nutrient need not be Nitrates). I've had water lettuce explode in my tanks, then slow down, with new leaves showing deformed growth, all while Nitrates were not near zero. So some other nutrient was limited -- most likely P or K or some trace element...sure enough when I dosed the whole gamut of standard aquarium plant fertilizers the water lettuce would take off again.


I would have loved to keep the water hyacinth but there is only about 12 inches of space above my sump. That stuff is crazy and grows up to 3.85 feet tall. I was having to try and prune almost the whole plant. Again, without space constraints, I think it would be more effective than algae but haven't got to try it yet.

Agreed, that the CO2 probably doesn't do a whole lot but it is enough to keep the algae from consuming the KH when I inject it directly into my sump. That's how I adjust the CO2 rate. CO2 is not required for an algae scrubber. From what i've seen, it's very rare to use CO2 with a scrubber and people have had mixed results. You could just monitor the KH and add some occasionally. Depending on your bioload, the natural CO2 in the water could be enough on it's own and you might not notice a decline in KH at all.

I've also noticed that the limiting nutrient has to be monitored. For my setup it's usually P. I still have to occasionally dose P to keep that from being the limiting nutrient in the tank. I've seen other people dose Fe occasionally for their scrubber but I've never had to.


That's great news you had success with the water lettuce! I'm glad we have these discussions. It was my second choice after the hyacinth and seems to grow pretty low. Maybe I'll give it another try after having learned more about plant requirements.

[dprais1]

In my experience water lettuce does well when there is very little surface agitation. not sure how your sump is designed but mine thrived with in my sump with nothing but a cfl bulb for light when I placed it after a piece of poret foam. the surface was calm but there was still plenty of flow in the tank.

[Hart24601]

I am also very interested in this. For people that have pretty dirty water like we have in Iowa (legal limit of 10ppm nitrate with a lot of phosphate and organics) it would be nice if they work. Also it's not exactly likely that water is going to be getting cheaper in the future and in some areas it will get very expensive.

Bud (turbo algae scrubbers) https://www.algaescrubbing.com/ lives in my city and is an active member of the reef club. I really like his design and have thought about using one but imo they are mutually exclusive with large W/C. I mean there is no point if doing 70% daily w/c with 10ppm nitrate as the scrubber will never be able to deplete the organics.

I am pretty surprised that phosphate is the limiting nutrient with all the foods discus eat. It does happen, but with with scrubbers in the reef world typically nitrate is depleted long before phosphorus or another element like iron is limiting before P.

[Luke in Phoenix]

Update: 1st problem found – Fry deformities. All adult fish doing great.


Rick got me looking a lot closer at the fry dorsal fins and I noticed a very high percentage (easily over 50% maybe close to 85%) with deformed dorsal fins.
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Important notes:
- These fry were spawned in water with minimal WC. After the eggs were laid, I performed a 40% WC (the first in a couple months) with RO water and did not buffer it back up for a few days.
- The Nitrates and phosphates always measured between 0-5. Usually close to 0.
- The Algae scrubber consumed all of the KH (including Calcium?) and other minerals at a few points bringing the KH down to 0 until I started monitoring it more closely.



Possible culprits:
- Genetics. Maybe… but I think highly unlikely because the percentage of deformed fry seem to be about the same from both pairs of parents (remember the foster fry). The first batch of fry from test #1 from the blue turquoise parents only had a 22% rate of deformed dorsal fins. Probably still on the high side but they had more WC before I started to grow them out and less “scrubbed water”
- Polluted water. Maybe, but all of the other fish are thriving.
- Something else I put in the water that was on my hands. Ie: lotion, soap, yard work chemicals, who knows, etc… I have no idea on this one.
- 40% RO water change after the eggs were laid and then buffering back up to 330 TDS after a few days was too much of a TDS, GH, or PH swing
- Mineral / calcium deficiency. Pretty much all of the other instances I found of fry with deformed dorsal fins had very low KH or TDS in common. Because all of the adult fish seem to be thriving, I’m leaning toward a calcium / mineral deficiency in the water.



This seems to be a common occurrence with fry but very rarely at this high rate from what I’ve found. People in the discussions below have wondered if this is genetic or water related and I think we answered that question. At least we figured something out so far! :)



2008 discussion on deformed dorsal fins:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/archive/index.php/t-47864.html
2010 instance of deformed dorsal fins:
http://www.discusforums.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-21039.html
1999 discussion:
http://discus.yuku.com/topic/1005/Deformed-dorsal-fins#.VnRbyhUrKUk
2014 discussion:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?115706-Blue-diamond-fry-question&highlight=deformed+dorsal+fins
2015 discussion:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?119074-How-to-achieve-and-maintain-good-shape-for-babies&highlight=deformed+dorsal+fins



I would love to hear experienced breeders thoughts on this. Is there a higher deformity rate with a lack of calcium or RO/DI water?


I’m assuming their fins won’t grow back normally? I’m thinking of giving the fry another week or 2 of monitoring. If the permanent deformity rate is too high, we can try out a chosen solution (increasing calcium / minerals is a possible one?) with another batch of fry in a test #3.



Long post… If you’re still with me, good job! You officially do not have ADD/ADHD!

[John_Nicholson]

Time to cull. I do not think it was genetic. It would have been from lack of minerals or poor water conditions either one.

-john

[nc0gnet0]

IMO dorsal fin deformities at this age is almost always bacterial in nature. Most likely while the fry where on the cone. Low mineral content can cause deformities as well, normally gill plate issues, but this occurs later. This will not correct itself (fin deformities). As you are starting to learn, there is a lot more to WQ then nitrates. As I was alluding to earlier, if your going to combat bacteria/protazoa/parasites via UV, your going to have to make some alterations to your system.

-Rick

[Luke in Phoenix]

It could be bacteria but I don’t think so because I placed the eggs within a container with methylene blue until they were wigglers before giving them back to the dad for natural rearing. Similar to this picture below. There are no other signs of bacteria in the tank or on the fish.
92874
Credit: http://www.reef2rainforest.com/2013/10/15/friday-photospread-artificial-incubation-of-freshwater-angelfish-eggs-part-1/



Interesting thread http://forum.simplydiscus.com/archive/index.php/t-62898.html
With a comment from Al:
“I'm a firm believer that discus "can" take minerals like calcium up thru their gills... its been published for many fish... I've posted this before...I have done experiments here where I have really pushed the feeding and growth in Rowater and have seen multiple defects...floppy fins...dorsal ray defects,curved and short gill plates.. same batch fry different tank same feeding... given calcium chloride in the water and the defects are not present.”
(Al, I hope you don’t mind me quoting you. Great experiment.)



Other links which suggest mineral deficiencies lead to dorsal deformations.
http://www.discusfishy.com/page/2
http://aquariumworld.nz/forums/topic/7804-discus-fry-dilemma/?page=2
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#calcium


I’ve added additional trace elements and calcium bringing the tank up to 470 TDS, 3 KH and 7.2 PH. I’ve ordered a calcium tester and will monitor that and PH more consistently. The only thing I'm worried about is decreasing hatch rates with the addition of more minerals and calcium...

I haven’t culled the fry yet but will post those final results. Once I have culled these fry I’ll soon have another batch of fry for test #3. In test #3 I will immediately add additional calcium and minerals once the fry are wigglers.


At this point, I think an Algae Scrubber can definitely be used to reduce the amount of water changes needed for a healthy aquarium but need additional testing to find out how an algae scrubber effects the water. I think these test of extremely limited water changes show us the weaknesses (or strengths) of an algae scrubber and how to compensate if somebody decides to go that route.
We’ll see what happens in test #3!

[nc0gnet0]

Your barking up the wrong tree. As you may or may not know, I have raised more than my fair share of fry, and while yes, calcium deficiency can lead to deformities, normally not at this stage of development. I have had spawns through 2 months in much lower TDS water than what you describe with no issues what-so-ever.

As soon as you accept the fact that your issues were bacterial in nature, the sooner you can make adjustments to correct the problem. I would strongly suggest staying with your algae scrubber/UV setup but removing the community tank from the setup. This will allow your UV's to function at a lower flow rate with a higher turnover. It would also make the experiment a little more relevant, as I can't see anyone going with that setup as it now stands.

A 40-50 gallon breeding/grow-out tank coupled to a 20 gallon sump/algae scrubber/UV would be a better way to go in my opinion, right now, I think your just asking to much of the equipment you have.

Here is a batch I raised out during the 2012 Contest:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?98099-Batch-1-Blue-Diamond-x-Dark-Angel

TDS was never above 120 through 12 weeks, no dorsal fin deformities, and at nine weeks 30 of the juvies got placed into a 40 gallon grow-out tank with it's own 36 watt UV.

I did have a batch of fry with issues like yours from another pair I documented. This should convince you to cull the deformed fish as they will never develop nicely or grow out of their short comings.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?98728-Batch-4-Tefe-x-F1-(ARSG-x-VR)

[Luke in Phoenix]

Thanks for taking the time to post Rick. I think I see the light (UV light that is!).
That Tefe x F1 (ARSG x VR) pair is pretty amazing.


I'm contemplating making UV or other adjustments to the system. I'm definitely not an experienced breeder. Maybe part or the majority of the bacterial problem you mentioned was not changing any water in the small container while it had the eggs in it? I thought the methylene blue would be sufficient. Novice breeder mistake...

Sorry to those people that already know these items I'm learning.
I'll try this again and we'll have an even larger batch of fry for test #3 for anybody interested. Keep your fingers crossed!

[brewmaster15]

It could be bacteria but I don’t think so because I placed the eggs within a container with methylene blue until they were wigglers before giving them back to the dad for natural rearing. Similar to this picture below. There are no other signs of bacteria in the tank or on the fish.
92874
Credit: http://www.reef2rainforest.com/2013/10/15/friday-photospread-artificial-incubation-of-freshwater-angelfish-eggs-part-1/



Interesting thread http://forum.simplydiscus.com/archive/index.php/t-62898.html
With a comment from Al:
“I'm a firm believer that discus "can" take minerals like calcium up thru their gills... its been published for many fish... I've posted this before...I have done experiments here where I have really pushed the feeding and growth in Rowater and have seen multiple defects...floppy fins...dorsal ray defects,curved and short gill plates.. same batch fry different tank same feeding... given calcium chloride in the water and the defects are not present.”
(Al, I hope you don’t mind me quoting you. Great experiment.)



Other links which suggest mineral deficiencies lead to dorsal deformations.
http://www.discusfishy.com/page/2
http://aquariumworld.nz/forums/topic/7804-discus-fry-dilemma/?page=2
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#calcium


I’ve added additional trace elements and calcium bringing the tank up to 470 TDS, 3 KH and 7.2 PH. I’ve ordered a calcium tester and will monitor that and PH more consistently. The only thing I'm worried about is decreasing hatch rates with the addition of more minerals and calcium...

I haven’t culled the fry yet but will post those final results. Once I have culled these fry I’ll soon have another batch of fry for test #3. In test #3 I will immediately add additional calcium and minerals once the fry are wigglers.


At this point, I think an Algae Scrubber can definitely be used to reduce the amount of water changes needed for a healthy aquarium but need additional testing to find out how an algae scrubber effects the water. I think these test of extremely limited water changes show us the weaknesses (or strengths) of an algae scrubber and how to compensate if somebody decides to go that route.
We’ll see what happens in test #3!

I don't mind the quote at all. My observations then and now are still the same.

[brewmaster15]

With proper water, genetics, and care the cull rate should be more like 5% in my experience.

-john

LOL John..
So out of 300 fry you cull about 15? Those are some pretty good numbers ,even by Texas Standards! :)

Al

[brewmaster15]

Luke,
If you want to get the most info out of your experiment , my advice is not to cull yet. Grow them out longer. Not because the deformities may reverse but so you can document in better detail the nature of the deformities. You will be able to see them clearer....and photo document better. Additionally if you keep the full compliment of fry and raise them longer it will tell you just how much bioload your scrubber and system can handle.

Experiments are seldom cut and dry...everything goes as planned.Often we learn from one set of problems and then try again. Deformities are a problem, but theres alot to be learned from them here IMO.

Al

[brewmaster15]

Luke,
You mentioned that you add minerals

I add RO water to replace evaporated water. Minerals are added to the water to control TDS.


Can you go into more detail about what you added, and how you determined what you needed to add?

Thanks,
al

[Luke in Phoenix]

Luke,
If you want to get the most info out of your experiment , my advice is not to cull yet. Grow them out longer. Not because the deformities may reverse but so you can document in better detail the nature of the deformities. You will be able to see them clearer....and photo document better. Additionally if you keep the full compliment of fry and raise them longer it will tell you just how much bioload your scrubber and system can handle.

Experiments are seldom cut and dry...everything goes as planned.Often we learn from one set of problems and then try again. Deformities are a problem, but theres alot to be learned from them here IMO.

Al

Good point Al. I'm keeping the fry longer and will post a few more updates for anybody interested. You saved them just in time that day! haha


- Separated fry from dad on 12-21
- Started feeding them beefheart / seafood mix on 12-22. They will be fully transitioned to beefheart on 12-25.

Here are pictures of a few fry on 12-23 (23 days after they hatched).
929479294892949


I tested the calcium level and it still showed between 0-20 ppm even after adding minerals and calcium specifically to the water. The algae scrubber must be very KH hungry. This will need to be closely monitored. Although, it could be used as an advantage to get a higher hatch rate by reducing calcium/KH. I initially had counted over 280 wigglers with a great hatch rate but only ended up with about 50-60 fry probably due to the bacterial issue mentioned by Rick.

I've ordered a bigger UV sterilizer for the system. We'll see if it helps on the next batch along with a few other minor adjustments.

[Luke in Phoenix]

Nitrates still at 0 today. 0 additional water changes.
KH = 3, PH = 7.1, TDS = 470

Fry are vigorous, very hungry eaters and normal except for the dorsal and bottom fin deformities.





Luke,
You mentioned that you add minerals

Can you go into more detail about what you added, and how you determined what you needed to add?

Thanks,
al



Happy to share. I am probably not the best expert in this area but will share what has worked for me. I put an algae scrubber on a tank a couple years ago and started to monitor some of these things but it wasn't until the recent "extreme water change" test that I've really started to notice how it effects water.


My RO water starts with about 20 ppm TDS.

I constantly monitor the tank TDS with a Milwaukee TDS monitor. They are awesome because it's always on. I add Seachem's discus trace as needed to adjust the tanks TDS. There are lots of products or even tap water that can be used to do this but Seachem sold me on their promise that "Discus Trace™ contains only those elements actually demonstrated to be required by fish." I figure if I'm going to add anything to the water it might as well be useful.

One thing I've found interesting but am not sure it's 100% correlated is that when one of my discus starts acting shy, not eating as much or hides more in the back and then I dose some trace elements it's usually a problem solved. Maybe they were missing some trace element in the water?



I regularly replace the depleted KH with Seachems Alkaline Buffer which increases KH. A level between 2-4 has worked for me.

I add Seachem Flourish Iron on a very limited basis. If your Algae on the scrubber starts to turn Yellow it could be because of an iron deficiency or to much light.

Monopotassium Phosphate is added to keep the phosphate levels between 1-2 ppm. It's surprising that I have to add this every once in a while but it can be a limiting nutrient. If you're Nitrate levels were at 0 with an algae scrubber but start to rise and you're not sure why, a good place to start is checking the phosphate levels. I use an API test kit to monitor

Potassium is added every so often, I don't really monitor it.
Sometimes I add a general plant fertilizer to give the algae scrubber a boost if needed. I use Yamato green and it works pretty well.

A combination of these items can probably be used to push an algae scrubber to it's most efficient level.

I recently started dosing Kent Marine liquid calcium. No thoughts to offer up on this yet other than it seems like a good idea to give the fish a higher calcium level than 0. I use an API test kit to monitor.

[brewmaster15]

Luke you may want to try boosting the calcium content of the food...

Its possible that the calcium in the water cant be absorbed by the gills if theres something else competing with calcium for uptake...just a speculation but sodium may compete with it for ex. TDS can be misleading as it doesnt tell you what..just that something is there...

ALSO.. algae are like plants...they take up minerals to grow...the use of the scrubber and Ro water may have depleted something critical for fry developement that you havent replenished....just a speculation.

[Luke in Phoenix]

I agree. The best food possible would be even more important in these water conditions.

This is my current beef heart recipe. What do you think? Improvements?

Recipe
Beef heart - 2 pounds
Fish (saltwater) - 1 pound
Shrimp - 1.5 pound, peeled
Egg yolk - 4 egg yolks

Astaxanthin - 1 tablespoon
Lecithin - 2 tablespoons
Garlic - 3 cloves
Paprika - 1 tablespoon
Spirulina - 2 tablespoon
Vita Chem vitamins - 2 tablespoons
Fish oil - 3600+ mg from pills
Brewers yeast - 1 tablespoon
Gluten powder - 1.5 tablespoons
Seachem Discus Trace - 2 Tablespoons

Liquid Calcium - 2 Tablespoons (just added, maybe this will help the calcium?)




just a speculation but sodium may compete with it
Would you mind explaining this part a little more? Not sure I got it.


Merry Christmas!

[Jack L]

wonder if anyone every pulverizes the egg shells and uses them in the mix, calcium and other trace minerals in there.

[DJW]

As I understand it, there are two related processes where an interplay between sodium and calcium can occur.

The gill epithelium is sometimes not very particular about which species of ion it picks up. This is how nitrite toxicity works. If the water contains a lot of nitrite ions, the gills diffuse them across the cell wall in place of chloride ions. So in this sense, chloride and nitrite are 'competing' for uptake. If you add some salt to the water, the chloride will outnumber the nitrite ions, thereby lessening the uptake of nitrite.

There is also a much more complicated process of osmoregulation.

There is a chemical balancing act that goes on with the permeability of mineral ions, which is why I have been tinkering with the mineral content of water.

Here is some fun reading:

===============================

"It is generally recognized that sodium, chloride, potassium and calcium are primarily responsible for osmoregulation in fishes, either by exerting osmotic effects (sodium and chloride) or by affecting uptake and excretion (calcium and potassium)."

http://www2.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/RedDrumPhysiology.htm

==================================

"Low calcium in the extracellular fluid would result in incomplete saturation of the calcium binding sites along the membrane pore, reducing the stimulus (force) necessary to dislodge them in the process of depolarization. If calcium concentrations are sufficiently low in the extracellular fluid, spontaneous sodium influx will occur (Frankenhaeuser and Hodgkin, 1957; Guyton, 1971)."

"Environmental calcium concentrations also appear to affect a potassium mediated sodium exchange mechanism which is distinct from the passive processes discussed above. Sodium is actively transported against diffusional gradients producing sodium influx in fresh water and efflux in sea water. When environmental calcium is absent or reduced in concentration, the rates of influx or efflux are reduced (Bornancin et al., 1972; Fleming et al., 1974; Eddy, 1975; Isaia and Masoni, 1976; Norton et al., 1977; Pic and Maetz, 1981)."

http://www2.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/MembranePhysiologyCalcium.htm

[John_Nicholson]

LOL John..
So out of 300 fry you cull about 15? Those are some pretty good numbers ,even by Texas Standards! :)

Al

For the type of problem that he is having....yes. I normally sell my fish at between 1 and 3 inches. If I keep the fish langer I will cull some more for slow growth/shape and such.

-john

[Luke in Phoenix]

Here is some fun reading:



Interesting read, thanks for sharing.

[Luke in Phoenix]

12-28-2015, 28 day fry update:


Water changed since August 2015: About 50%

Nitrates: between 0-5 ppm
Phosphate: 0.5 ppm
TDS: 480
PH: 7.1
Calcium: between 0-20 ppm (I continue to add small amounts)
Temperature: 82

I tried to pull out average fry for measuring
93006930079300893009930109301193012

I'm planning on keeping the fry for another week or two before trying again for a better batch.



Adult fish in connected display tank update:
The only thing I've noticed slightly different in the behavior of the adult fish is one of my larger males becoming more and more shy over the past few weeks(you just know your fish right?). After increasing the calcium and other minerals in the tank he began to swim more and more at the front of the tank and eat more aggressively. Not a huge difference, but noticeable. It makes me wonder if there is any correlation between his behavior and the mineral content of the tank. He is back to his "normal" front of tank self. All of the other discus continue to behave the same.

Larger male:
93013
(He got a few scuffs yesterday quarreling with a pair that laid eggs. 4 pairs continue to lay eggs in the display tank including this male and another female.)

[DC Discus]

Couple things that might not have been mentioned;

-Methylene blue has been well documented to cause problems in fry (swim bladder and deformities);
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?77899-Exposure-of-Fish-Eggs-to-Methylene-Blue

I believe the exposure times that many people use are too long. In aquaculture we use Ovadine (buffered Iodine) as a dip to disinfect eggs (~15-20 min). I've never tried this with discus (cichlids), but have successfully used it with Cyprinids (Barbs, rasboras, etc). Though, apparently there is a very small safety margin with iodine (Chambel, João, et al. "Hydrogen peroxide, iodine solution and methylene solution highly enhance the hatching rate of freshwater ornamental fish species." Aquaculture International 22.6 (2014): 1743-1751.).

Interestingly, MB doesn't kill all bacteria (Sipos, Aaron J., and Hidetoshi Urakawa. "Differential responses of nitrifying archaea and bacteria to methylene blue toxicity." Letters in applied microbiology (2015).). Also, interesting is the numbers of species of bacteria that can be found on eggs, with newer PCR techiniques (Efficacy of Iodine for Disinfection of Lake Sturgeon Eggs from the St. Lawrence River, New York Marc Chalupnicki , Dawn Dittman , Clifford E. Starliper , Deborah D. Iwanowicz North American Journal of Aquaculture Vol. 77, Iss. 1, 2015)

- You can add bananas to your beef heart recipe for potassium and magnesium. These nutrients might be to low for the fry with the algae competing for the resources.

Cheers,
DC

Abstracts from above;

Abstracts:
Hydrogen peroxide, iodine solution and methylene solution highly enhance the hatching rate of freshwater ornamental fish species. João Chambel , Ricardo Costa, Mónica Gomes, Susana Mendes, Teresa Baptista, Rui Pedrosa;
The aim of this study was to evaluate the effect of hydrogen peroxide, iodine solution (PVP) and methylene blue on eggs disinfection of three ornamental fish species, Danio rerio, Pterophyllum scalare and Gymnocorymbus ternetzi. The main idea was to create conditions to enhance the hatching rates. Eggs of each species were exposed to different concentrations of hydrogen peroxide (5, 10, 15 and 25 mg/L), PVP (0.25, 0.5, 0.75 and 1 mg/L) and methylene blue (0.5 1, 2 and 3 mg/L). The optimal doses ranged between species and chemicals: for G. ternetzi, the concentrations that high enhanced the hatching rate were 1 mg/L for the PVP treatment, 25 mg/L for the hydrogen peroxide treatment and 3 mg/L for methylene blue treatment; for P. scalare, the best results were achieved with 25 mg/L for hydrogen peroxide treatment and 3 mg/L for methylene blue treatment. By contrast, for all the different chemical did not increased the D. rerio hatching rate. Results showed that hydrogen peroxide and methylene blue are the most versatile, effective and safe to use in these species. On the other hand, PVP can be used but with many precautions due to very low safety margin. Results clearly show that the optimal concentration of chemicals for eggs disinfection is fish species dependent and it is completely wrong to extrapolate concentrations between different chemicals and fish species. Our study suggests that P. scalare can be used as a model in study of effectiveness of new chemicals with potential to disinfect water and increase hatching rates.


Differential responses of nitrifying archaea and bacteria to methylene blue toxicity. Aaron J. Sipos and Hidetoshi Urakawa;
Methylene blue, a heterocyclic aromatic chemical compound used to treat fish diseases in the ornamental fish aquaculture industry, is believed to impair nitrification as a side effect. However, very little is known about the toxicity of methylene blue to nitrifying microorganisms. Here, we report the susceptibility of six bacterial and one archaeal ammonia-oxidizing microorganisms to methylene blue within the range of 10 ppb to 10 ppm. Remarkably high susceptibility was observed in the archaeal species Nitrosopumilus maritimus compared to the bacterial species. Ammonia oxidation by Nitrosopumilus maritimus was inhibited 65% by 10 ppb of methylene blue. Of the bacterial species examined, Nitrosococcus oceani was the most resistant to methylene blue toxicity. For similar inhibition of Nitrosococcus oceani (75% inhibition), one thousand times more methylene blue (10 ppm) was needed. The examination of single cell viability on Nitrosomonas marina demonstrated that methylene blue is lethal to the cells rather than reducing their single cell ammonia oxidation activity. The level of susceptibility to methylene blue was related to the cell volume, intracytoplasmic membrane arrangement and the evolutionary lineage of nitrifying microorganisms. Our findings are relevant for effectively using methylene blue in various aquaculture settings by helping minimize its impact on nitrifiers during the treatment of fish diseases with methylene blue. In the future, resistant nitrifiers such as Nitrosococcus oceani may be purposely added to aquaculture systems to maintain nitrification activity during treatments with methylene blue.

[Luke in Phoenix]

-Methylene blue has been well documented to cause problems in fry (swim bladder and deformities);
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?77899-Exposure-of-Fish-Eggs-to-Methylene-Blue




Could be a contributing factor, I left the eggs in a full concentration of Methylene blue until after they hatched. I'll have to look into this more. Maybe on the next batch I'll just keep them in it for the first few hours and see how that goes.

[Luke in Phoenix]

12-1-2016 – 1 month update:

WaterChanges since August 2015
- 50% August – November 2015
- 5% - December 2015

Nitrates: 0-5 ppm
KH: 2
Calcium: 0-20 ppm
TDS: 450
CO2 injected reduces PH by about 0.2 From 7.3 to 7.1 ph


Here are some videos and pictures of the fry just after gathering them into a container:

28 fry with severe dorsal fin deformity
Video: https://youtu.be/imdU0Au7RSY
93171


33 fry with minor / moderate dorsal fin deformity. The top front dorsal fin is just a little jagged.
Video: https://youtu.be/gA7fuWEIODI
9317293173


These are a little on the larger average size fry pulled for measuring:
931749317593176


The Red Dragon fry are smaller than the turquoise fry on average.


Let me know if you would like any more pics of the fry. Their tank will be reclaimed as a breeding tank within the next day or two.

If anybody has any Methylene Blue tips, I'm happy to hear them.

[MattArmstrong]

Not much to say, but I'm still watching with interest!

[Luke in Phoenix]

In my experience water lettuce does well when there is very little surface agitation. not sure how your sump is designed but mine thrived with in my sump with nothing but a cfl bulb for light when I placed it after a piece of poret foam. the surface was calm but there was still plenty of flow in the tank.

I've been thinking about sump designs and you're probably right on this. My sump has a ton of surface agitation. Maybe I'll try the water lettuce again elsewhere in the system...

[Luke in Phoenix]

As I was alluding to earlier, if your going to combat bacteria/protazoa/parasites via UV, your going to have to make some alterations to your system.

-Rick


Rick, You would be so proud of me. I installed an 80 watt Emperor Smart UV High-Output on the main display return pump line. measured the gph and it's about 360 gph for the 80 gallon tank plus 20 gallon sump. Go big or go home! The only bad thing is it takes up a ridiculous amount of space!


I thought this guy had some good insight into the UV sterilizers: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumUVSterilization.html
In my experience the sterilizers have been a must have with or without an algae scrubber.

[Luke in Phoenix]

After some culling I still have about 25 fry. Here are some pics of them.


What do you think about these? Deformities? Normal?

93278932799328093281

[Luke in Phoenix]

Last Update:

I kept the last 25 best fry and grew them out to an average of 1.5" (on tape) and ended up with 24 great fry. So about 24 good ones out of 60 for this test. A higher percentage of good fry than I thought I would get after first noticing some with dorsal fin deformities.

PH: 7.1
TDS: 530
KH: 3
Calcium: 0-20 ppm
Phosphates: 1 ppm
Nitrates: Up to about 20ppm. Started to increase after feeding approximately 12 cubes / day.

-All fish Active and healthy

Water Changes since August 2015:
- 50% August – November 2015
- 5% - December 2015
- 5% - January 2016

The last 24 fry were removed from the algae scrubber system. 4 pairs continue to lay eggs in the display tank.


If anyone is interested, I’ll post about trying to grow out some more in February continuing the severely limited water changes with an algae scrubber and we’ll monitor spawning success and fry development.

[rickztahone]

Pics?

[nc0gnet0]

how old were the fry at 1.5", and why did you stop? You were jut getting started........

[Luke in Phoenix]

I thought a cull rate of over 50% was a failure. Something went wrong. I want to try again and see if I can get closer to an "average" spawn using an algae scrubber.

Here a few pics of them on 1-14-2016:
They hatched on 12-1-2015 so they were almost 1.5 months

934479344693448

[Luke in Phoenix]

ps. sorry my picture skills really suck! The fry move really fast and are hard to photograph...

[Rapture]

A couple questions for you:

Is an algae scrubber that much more effective than other fast growing non-algae plants that could either be located in a refugium or directly in the tank?

Did you siphon out any uneaten food or fish waste?

[Luke in Phoenix]

A couple questions for you:
Is an algae scrubber that much more effective than other fast growing non-algae plants that could either be located in a refugium or directly in the tank?


I've never tested it but I bet there are fast growing plants that would be just as or more effective than algae. Water hyacinth and water lettuce were discussed earlier in the thread as good candidates.



A couple questions for you:
Did you siphon out any uneaten food or fish waste?


Yes, usually every day or two with an EHEIM Quick Vac.

Welcome to Simply Discus!

[Rapture]

Thanks for your replies and warm welcome. :)

I hope you see a difference in your next batch.

[nc0gnet0]

I've never tested it but I bet there are fast growing plants that would be just as or more effective than algae. Water hyacinth and water lettuce were discussed earlier in the thread as good candidates.

It is my understanding that the answer to this question is no, but I could be wrong.

[Filip]

Luke , I'm curious about your experiment.
What is happening ? Are you still on it?
Are they still growing good ?

[Luke in Phoenix]

Luke , I'm curious about your experiment.
What is happening ? Are you still on it?
Are they still growing good ?


Hi Filip,

I gave away the good fry and am planning on trying again using the same WC frequency, I just haven't had time yet. Hopefully within the next couple of months.


The display tank continues to do well except for 1 fish which I'll discuss in a post right after this one.
4 pairs continue to lay eggs and the good ones try to raise wrigglers in the tank. In the pictures below you can see the orange pair with wrigglers on the green intake tube as of yesterday.
They eat well, behave normal and look great.

I also threw in a couple of floating plants in the top of the tanks. They are growing pretty well so far.


Only Water Changes since August 2015:
- 50% August – November 2015
- 5% - December 2015
- 5% - January 2016
- 32% - February 2016
- 50% - March 2016
- 2% - May 2016

Water stats as of today.
- 0 nitrates (sometimes fluctuates between 0-5)
- 0 Phosphates
- 2 KH
- 260 TDS
- Less than 30 PPM Calcium
- 390 Redox (I've started to monitor this)
- 6.3 PH
- 84 degrees

Pics of the tank yesterday:
97728977299773097731

[Luke in Phoenix]

All fish appear very healthy except for one. This is the only fish that has developed some spots on his side and lost some color in areas(pics below). I'm not exactly sure what it is. Somebody on here may know?

Of course I suspected the water quality but this also occurred with a new batch of beef heart / seafood mix I started giving him. I switched the food and he seems to be improving and eating well. I'm not sure why the others haven't been effected. Maybe because I believe this to be an older discus?

It looks like some of his scales turned white but i think they may actually be missing and it appears white because of the missing scales.


I have not administered any medicine and I think he is improving. I will experiment a little with the different food I am giving them although I'm sure it could be water quality related or something else. We'll see what happens.
977329773397734

[Filip]

This looks like HITH to me . Location and holes leads me to think of this first.
Metronidazole and high temps.followed by daily 90% WCs should heal this in about 2-3 weeks period.

[John_Nicholson]

You are probably right in that water changes will fix his issues but his entire test is that you do not need large, daily water changes to raise good fish

-john

[Jack L]

ummm..aren't those just the normal pores, i think called nares?

[Luke in Phoenix]

Update:
The fish with the white spots is back to normal. Looks great and eats well.

No additional water changes or medicine.

Pics of the fish today:
981589815998160


I'm always updating my recipe, but this was the beef heart recipe I last made and then stopped feeding. I'm going to use it again and see what happens. All other fish look great.

Recipe:
Beef heart - 2 pounds
Fish (saltwater) - 1 pound
Shrimp - 1.5 pound, peeled
Egg yolk - 3 egg yolks

Astaxanthin - 1 tablespoon
Lecithin - 2 tablespoons
Garlic - 3 cloves
Paprika - 1 tablespoon
Spirulina - 2 tablespoon
Vita Chem vitamins - 2 tablepoon
Gelatin - 1 packet, no water
Brewers yeast - 1 tablespoon
Gluten powder - 1.5 tablespoons

Mix well and Grind up fine

[Luke in Phoenix]

I received this picture from my friend that has the fry from this experiment. Says they are doing well. It's not the best picture because they took it from their cell phone but thought I would share anyways.
Picture taken 8-14-2015
100502

[Luke in Phoenix]

The next batch of fry is being raised in the 3rd test here:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?125526-Test-3-%96-Growing-out-discus-fry-with-limited-water-changes-and-plants-algae-scrubber

[Luke in Phoenix]

I could be wrong but due to what I've read and the results of the next test: (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?125526-Test-3-%96-Growing-out-discus-fry-with-limited-water-changes-and-plants-algae-scrubber/page2)

I believe that the deformities in this test were due to the egg and wrigglers being exposed to prolonged high dosages of Methylene Blue. The next test of fry were also given increased amounts of calcium and other minerals right after hatching which may have helped.

[bluelagoon]

This looks like HITH to me . Location and holes leads me to think of this first.
Metronidazole and high temps.followed by daily 90% WCs should heal this in about 2-3 weeks period.

yes ,it is HITH.Not nares.