Blackwater Mineral Mix

[DJW]

If remineralizing RO water for wilds, the two commercial mineral additives, Kent Marine RO Right and Seachem Equilibrium, do not contain a realistic mix of minerals. We dont know what is in RO Right, it is probably salty as anecdotally plants don't do well with it; and Equilibrium is mostly potassium.

I did a little research into the mineral content of Amazonian water and concocted my own mix of minerals to mimic amazon basin water. The contents are readily available and fairly cheap.

For the mineral breakdown of whitewater and blackwater river water I am using two sources:

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0103-50532009000600018

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_river

These mineral concentrations have been averaged in a way to weigh more toward blackwater but with some whitewater as well. Here are the percentages of the five main ions in the mix:

Ca 37%
Na 9%
Mg 8%
K 7%
Cl 39%

To mix 100grams:

CaCl 20g Calcium Chloride; food grade pellets; amazon.com
NaCl 10g Table salt
MgSO4 35g Epsom salt
CaSO4 19g Calcium Sulfate; food grade gypsum; amazon.com
Equilib 16g Seachem Equilibrium (for Potassium)

The above amounts are calculated using molecular weights, to result in the correct percentages (I think... I hated chemistry).

Directions:

1. Add a dose of Seachem Discus Trace. This raises the TDS by 12 ppm. Discus Essentials could be used here as an alternative.
2. Add mineral mix to desired TDS. One teaspoon in 50 gallons raises TDS by +/- 22 ppm.


Notes
1. At TDS levels below 150ppm, no measurable change in pH. At 250ppm, pH increased by 0.05+/-.
2. At 3000 ppm, KH does not increase. (API drop test).
3. Grinding the ingredients with a mortar & pestle helps with dissolving time. Some of the ingredients dissolve slowly.
4. The mineral mix should be kept in a dry place (refrigerator or freezer). It soaks up moisture from the air and gets cakey.

[Second Hand Pat]

Interesting. Have you tried it yet on fish?

[DJW]

I've been using it for a couple of months with Rams and Cardinals, not with Discus yet. The Rams have been spawning at their usual rate, but I haven't tried it with fry yet. I might pull some Ram eggs and raise fry, but thats so much work I'm procrastinating.

[bluelagoon]

I can't see where it would be accurate or the same as the Amazon by adding those elements since most of us are using water from different parts of the world.We already have those elements(more or less) and a lot more in our waters only in different amounts.I'm so glad that I'm not using RO water.

[DJW]

You are right. This mineral supplement is only useful if you are using straight RO water with little or no tap water added back. I use straight RO for two reasons: high nitrates in the well water make it useless, and I am also trying to nudge the pH lower.

I figure as long as I am having to mineralize the water, I might as well use the minerals that the fish are adapted to. Whether it benefits the fish or not is conjecture, but I am guessing it is better than the store-bought additives.

[MD.David]

Thank you for posting, this is very interesting at the least... So awesome to see another persons insightful research.
Cheers mate!


If remineralizing RO water for wilds, the two commercial mineral additives, Kent Marine RO Right and Seachem Equilibrium, do not contain a realistic mix of minerals. We dont know what is in RO Right, it is probably salty as anecdotally plants don't do well with it; and Equilibrium is mostly potassium.

I did a little research into the mineral content of Amazonian water and concocted my own mix of minerals to mimic amazon basin water. The contents are readily available and fairly cheap.

For the mineral breakdown of whitewater and blackwater river water I am using two sources:

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0103-50532009000600018

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_river

These mineral concentrations have been averaged in a way to weigh more toward blackwater but with some whitewater as well. Here are the percentages of the five main ions in the mix:

Ca 37%
Na 9%
Mg 8%
K 7%
Cl 39%

To mix 100grams:

CaCl 20g Calcium Chloride; food grade pellets; amazon.com
NaCl 10g Table salt
MgSO4 35g Epsom salt
CaSO4 19g Calcium Sulfate; food grade gypsum; amazon.com
Equilib 16g Seachem Equilibrium (for Potassium)

The above amounts are calculated using molecular weights, to result in the correct percentages (I think... I hated chemistry).

Directions:

1. Add a dose of Seachem Discus Trace. This raises the TDS by 12 ppm. Discus Essentials could be used here as an alternative.
2. Add mineral mix to desired TDS. One teaspoon in 50 gallons raises TDS by +/- 22 ppm.


Notes
1. At TDS levels below 150ppm, no measurable change in pH. At 250ppm, pH increased by 0.05+/-.
2. At 3000 ppm, KH does not increase. (API drop test).
3. Grinding the ingredients with a mortar & pestle helps with dissolving time. Some of the ingredients dissolve slowly.
4. The mineral mix should be kept in a dry place (refrigerator or freezer). It soaks up moisture from the air and gets cakey.

[Luke in Phoenix]

Thanks for posting. I'll be following your results.

[Cosmo]

Thank you for posting, this is very interesting at the least... So awesome to see another persons insightful research.
Cheers mate!

Out of curiosity, do you measure the ingredients using a digital kitchen scale, or ? Interesting that at 3000 ppm the Kh does not move, seems counterintuitive. Also interested in following your results :)

[DJW]

I just use a kitchen scale that measures in grams.

As I understand it, KH (or alkalinity) is a measure of carbonate and bicarbonate anions. A salt like Calcium Chloride raises GH while having little or no effect on KH at the concentrations used in freshwater.

If I wanted this recipe to contain some buffer, I would use sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) in place of some of the NaCl.

[Akili]

This is very interesting,I am going to give it a try.

[Cosmo]

I just use a kitchen scale that measures in grams.

As I understand it, KH (or alkalinity) is a measure of carbonate and bicarbonate anions. A salt like Calcium Chloride raises GH while having little or no effect on KH at the concentrations used in freshwater.

If I wanted this recipe to contain some buffer, I would use sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) in place of some of the NaCl.

Yes, I've been told that baking soda alone makes for a great buffer - I even have a can of it sitting in my old fish room where my water storage tanks are - just never really knew what dosage would work correctly so I never tried it :p Think I opened the container a few years ago, but that's about as far as I got

[DJW]

Yes, I've been told that baking soda alone makes for a great buffer - I even have a can of it sitting in my old fish room where my water storage tanks are - just never really knew what dosage would work correctly so I never tried it :p Think I opened the container a few years ago, but that's about as far as I got

It might be that PH Stable is almost all baking soda anyway...

http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/sales-spotted-group-buy-19/ready-p-u-kent-ro-right-1kg-250-gm-ph-stable-group-buy-15967/index2.html

[DJW]

REVISIONS TO THE RECIPE

My chemistry is pretty rusty, and when I looked at this again I found that I had calcium chloride calculated wrong, and too much magnesium. This time, rather than scratch it out on paper, I made a little program to do it. The atomic weights of the constituent ions have to be taken into account separately.

The target percentages of the ions are the same,

Ca++ 37%
Na+ 9%
Mg++ 8%
K+ 7%
Cl- 39%


The amounts to make 100 grams have been revised,

CaCl2 20 grams
NaCl 12 grams
MgSO4 17 grams
CaSO4 34 grams
EQuilib 17 grams

The anions (chloride, sulphate, phosphate) are usually ignored for minerals added to water, except insofar as they effect the growth of plants and algae. We know that chloride plays a role in ion regulation at the gills, so I have included it. This is why I have two sources of calcium, so that the amount of chloride can be balanced.

Recognizing that Amazonian water is very low in minerals anyway, their proportions are probably less important than simply having them present. I used this mix to raise some Ram fry, starting at TDS 120ppm and gradually lowering it to 60ppm, which is the TDS for the adults.

[LizStreithorst]

It's similar to Joe's mix. He used potassium sulfate rather than Equlib.

[DJW]

It wouldn't be the first time I've reinvented some wheel or other. I just found a reference to Joe Szelesi's recipe, and its very close except for the sodium. I was surprised to find that amazonian water contains some sodium, had always assumed it didn't.

There was some Equilibrium left here so I used it. Its got a dash of manganese in it, and I was trying not to overdo it on the sulphur.

[LizStreithorst]

I'm surprised at that myself. I'd be inclined to cut the sodium in half. Joe was in importer way back when. The only thing he was any good for IMO was this mineral mix.

[Alight]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?103814-DIY-Remineralization-for-RO-Water/page3

There is a similar thread at the URL above, that has both Seachem replenish and, and the Seachem Equilibrium formulas in it and recipes for mixing it and several sources for the chemicals needed.

Al Light

[DJW]

Al, its funny that you linked that ... that was the thread that got me started on this. I read through all the old threads that had mineral recipes, and the motivation was mostly to save money by trying to duplicate the ingredients in commercially available additives. My aim here was different, it was to base the ingredients on the actual mineral content of South American rivers.

Here is a price comparison (minus the trace minerals, Discus Trace or Essentials):

This recipe: $5.17 per pound
RO Right: $11.00 per lb
Equilibrium: $8.50 per lb

One pound makes 1600 gallons at TDS 65.

I should include links for the two ingredients that can be hard to locate.

Calcium Chloride:

http://www.amazon.com/Midwest-Homebrewing-and-Winemaking-Supplies/dp/B0064OGEVU/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1457836265&sr=8-4&keywords=calcium+chloride+food+grade

Gypsum (calcium sulphate). It was on Amazon earlier, but brewing suppliers have it:

http://labelpeelers.com/gypsum-1-lb/?gclid=CN6Q2IDPvMsCFQEJaQodKWYE6A

[Alight]

Fosters and Smith has 38 pounds of Calcium Chloride for less than 50$ with free shipping!

Al

[Alight]

You could save $282 by buying the calcium chloride in bulk from F and S.
Dan, great thread, by the way. Thanks very much for posting this info.
Looks like a great price on the calcium sulfate. Interestingly, I had been mixing half and half calcium chloride and calcium sulfate because I figured there was too much chloride if it all was calcium chloride.

Al

[DJW]

Al, in Park City where the elevation is 7000 feet, you have about a 24% oxygen saturation deficit in the water. Do you see any problems as a result, or do you mitigate it in some way? I'm only at 3000 feet where O2 equilibrium is 10% less than at sea-level and have thought about dosing H2O2, but I haven't figured out a good rate. I will probably need an expensive oxygen meter to experiment with it.

Here is an O2sat calculator. Don't forget to set salinity to zero:

https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/MaximumO2Level.php

For dissolved oxygen at various points along the Amazon River, here is an old book:

https://books.google.com/books?id=ya4MAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=bicarbonates+in+the+amazon+river&source=bl&ots=8k4ikh5wHL&sig=n0BGGxGAfvDabNlfkPm-LOZJV-E&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjz5Nf6_cDLAhWLsYMKHXDCBc8Q6AEILDAC#v=on epage&q=bicarbonates%20in%20the%20amazon%20river&f=false

I spent some time in Park City doing oil exploration during the first energy boom. That was before it became a hot spot for tourism. Its a beautiful area.

[Alight]

No problems with the fish as far a I can tell. The water is very good, and that is probably more important. I do better with breeding Discus here than I ever did at 700 feet in Chapel Hill, NC where I lived for 30 years. I do as well or better than other Discus owners who live in Salt Lake at 4,000 feet.

I would think that the warm temperature of the water that discus like would be a bigger factor than the air pressure in reducing the O2 sats. It is in the trout streams around here. Trout need quite cold water because they need very high sats. The trout love the high altitude lakes in the mountains here. They do very well at 10-11,000 feet. The biggest problem for them in the high lakes is the very short time the lake are thawed (very little food available when frozen over), and the winter kill because of lack of O2 caused by no water exposure to air. The other problem is the same as the lakes in the Adirondacks where acidification is occurring because of the coal fired power plants here that refuse to put in scrubbers to keep the sulfur and mercury down (can't eat many of the trout from the lakes without poisoning your self).

Personally I like the high altitude. Keeps us out of the smog in Salt Lake, and we have nice warm days up here when the inversions keep it cold, damp and smoggy in Salt Lake.

The town is as nice as ever, and although there has been more construction and development than I would like to see, we still have a large elk herd in our neighborhood, as well as tons of mule deer and many moose.

We're getting some good moisture this year, although not enough is snow. Too warm, and has been for the past 5 years.

[Len]

I just use a kitchen scale that measures in grams.

As I understand it, KH (or alkalinity) is a measure of carbonate and bicarbonate anions. A salt like Calcium Chloride raises GH while having little or no effect on KH at the concentrations used in freshwater.

If I wanted this recipe to contain some buffer, I would use sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) in place of some of the NaCl.



I just noticed this and wanted to point out that sodium bicarbonate is a horrible pH buffer. Yes, it will raise your pH, but it is not stable and the pH will drop again if your kH (carbonate harness) is too low. A better choice IF you really need to buffer pH / kH is calcium carbonate. I emphasize IF, because in most cases you don't need to do all of that messing around with water parameters -- you just need to keep it consistently clean.

[DJW]

I have never used or needed buffer of any kind and I use 100% RO. The KH is less than 1 degree. Low stocking and frequent water changes is all that is necessary for a stable pH in my case. Its good that you point out the shortcomings of baking soda... some people use a Seachem product called Stability which has been found to contain mostly baking soda.

[DJW]

I just noticed this and wanted to point out that sodium bicarbonate is a horrible pH buffer. Yes, it will raise your pH, but it is not stable and the pH will drop again if your kH (carbonate harness) is too low. A better choice IF you really need to buffer pH / kH is calcium carbonate. I emphasize IF, because in most cases you don't need to do all of that messing around with water parameters -- you just need to keep it consistently clean.

You have me wondering. Sodium bicarbonate IS carbonate hardness. Why is it not a good buffer?

"Carbonate hardness (KH) is the measure of bicarbonate (HCO3-) and
carbonate (CO3--) ions in the water. In freshwater aquariums of
neutral pH, bicarbonate ions predominate and in saltwater aquariums,
carbonate ions begin to play a role...

Carbonate hardness can be easily increased by adding sodium
bicarbonate. Calcium carbonate will increase both KH and GH in equal
parts."

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/khgh.html

[Len]

It is not a good buffer because it doesn't keep the carbonate hardness stable whereas calcium carbonate or even sodium carbonate will. What you can see is a raise in pH and then fairly quickly start to drop. Your quote pretty much says it all kH is the measure of bicarbonate AND carbonate ions. Bicarobonate alone wont keep a stable kH and in turn will not keep a stable pH which is the ultimate goal.

If you can still find a cached copy of Rexgrigg.com he had excellent details on this very topic. Unfortunately he stopped maintaining the site and let it go :(

[DJW]

Here is a good article on the subject:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/5/chemistry

Where I found a couple of interesting facts:

The carbonate ion contributes twice as much alkalinity as bicarbonate, so that 2 grams of bicarbonate has an equivalent alkalinity to 1 gram of carbonate.

Also, a comparison of the two shows that adding bicarbonate drives dissolved CO2 from the water. Its easy to see why it gets a bad rap in the planted tank world.

If I'm choosing between sodium and calcium, I will use calcium. It looks like calcium carbonate would be better, as you have said. TUMS without the color and flavor.

[Len]

TUMS would be one option lol. I got the pharmacist to order me a container (about a litre or so). It cost 15.00, but I haven't used it in quite some time as until recently I hadn't kept a planted tank for several years.

[kimberly]

What TDS meeter do you recommend using? I am new to breeding.

[DJW]

What TDS meeter do you recommend using? I am new to breeding.

This is the one I have. It compensates for temperature differences, which is good because temp has a huge effect on TDS measurement.

https://www.amazon.com/HM-Digital-TDS-3-Handheld-Carrying/dp/B000VTQM70

[pastry]

I totally feel very slow all of a sudden :confused: I just add water, add safe, and add fish. Repeat water and safe. ;)

Seriously though I am trying to get better at this and thank you for posting this. What the heck do you guys use to test all this though?

[Jack L]

I'm surprised at that myself. I'd be inclined to cut the sodium in half. Joe was in importer way back when. The only thing he was any good for IMO was this mineral mix.

awww....snap

[Jack L]

read through this thread, found it interesting

i remember a long time ago stumbling on the fact i was paying an INSANE upcharge for "PH UP", which was just baking soda.

its cool that you are DIY sourcing the ingredients!

for now i just to 50% tap and 50% RO. if i change that path, i'll try to remember this thread!!!