Juveniles keep dying on me

[Isaacsilva]

Hello everyone, this is my first post in these forums! I would just like to add that I love this website and I love discus but have always been scared to buy them because of the reputation they have of being fragile (which I am now learning first hand).

I bought 9 small discus from a website about 1.5 months ago. They came in very vigorous and healthy in their bags so I was very excited for them. Everything was looking good, except I noticed that they did not eat very much. They were very small, dime size. About an inch long.

Soon, they started dying 1 by 1. Now I only have 3 left.. This greatly saddens me and frustrates me because I have tried my best to keep them alive and healthy. Here is what I have been doing.

I have them in a 55 Gallon bare bottom, with 3 of the whisper in tank filters. I took out the standard filtration inside and use filter floss and ceramic rings for the biological media.

300 watt Heater which apparently sucks because temps is always fluctuating between 82-86 degrees.

Feeding them Wardleys flake food about 2-4 times a day. Sometimes adult frozen brine shrimp but it doesn't look like they eat it. I somestimes suck the food out after 30 mins or so but it doesn't look like they eat at all sometimes so I leave it in sometimes.

Irregular water changes. I usually do about 20% every other day, sometimes i did 50-75% water changes if they looked unhappy which was at least once a week.

Water parameters
Ph around 8
Total alkalinity 180 ppm
Hardiness around 300 ppm
Nitrites and nitrates are usually always at 0 or very very low.
I would do water changes by using 2 buckets. While I dumped one, the next would be filling up. I would set the water to the right temp, and use .5 mil of prime for 4 gallons of water. I would carefully dump the water in to not hurt the discus.
That's about all the info I can give you. They did not eat often and the last 3 look very weak as well.
I have 2 other fish tanks, both 30 gallons with a pair each of very happy breeding angelfish pairs. I have raised many angelfish and they don't die like this. I will appreciate any tips you guys can give me! I badly want to see these pups grow.. I hate that I have already let 6 die. Any suggestions will be helpful, thanks!

[John_Nicholson]

I can't tell you exactly what is happening with your fish but here are some general observations. First you need to feed better. You were not providing the nutrition that they needed. Second you probably should change a little more water. Most change about 50% a day when raising fish that small. Third you should be very careful where you get your fish from. Your source might be great or the fish might have arrived with internal parasites.

-john

[Isaacsilva]

Thanks for the reply. What do you recommend for food?

[John_Nicholson]

Personally I use a beef heart mix. Many on here use Al's freeze dried blackworms.

-john

[MD.David]

Keeping adult discus is generally very easy with regular water changes (3-6) per week, however doing a fry go out is not for the beginner, it takes a considerable amount of time invested, usually including changing 50-200% water changes daily.
With fry that is only a "dime size", they can't be much older then a month. At this age till they are about 2.5-3inches in size they tend to be very susceptible to illness if not in the "ideal environment".
You need three factors to be ideal or you will have a very difficult time growing out any discus.
i) a very clean tank environment, daily water changes 50%-100% (once or twice) a day, vacuum daily and wipe down tank walls and bottom, AM Ni Na all levels must be almost at zero, but with so many water changes this shouldn't be a problem.
ii) a very healthy diet, with small multiple feedings a day. Some people make their own "beef heart mix", some people don't have time, I personally feed Kens egg & immune booster flake mix, and Australian freeze dried black worms, I feed the flake in the mornings and FDBW at night, the fry grow out tank I will feed multiple feedings of the flake mornings and during day and at night they will get the FDBW.
With fry at dime size I would still be feeding BBS till they are about a quarter size (or a bit bigger) and feasting on the FDBW and flakes, at that time I wouldn't feed the BBS to them anymore.
iii) A superb water quality; this water must be not only meeting human health standards but be totally 100% free of all parasites, pathogens and bacteria (including micro bacterium). Just because the water source (ie:city tap water) is treated with chemicals like chlorine and or Ozone, etc, this does NOT mean it's totally free of protozoans, etc that could possibly be chlorine resistant and still end up in your tank. Some people have noted micro bacteria or protozoans in their tap water, requiring additional filtration and or UV sterilizers to remedy the problematic water source.

IMO, If you can achieve success on all of these three factors you will have a very good chance you can breed and raise discus with great success just like John and many other super successful discus breeders, but this takes a considerable amount of dedication and practise.

[MD.David]

Maybe we can help with the dying off.
What is the characteristics of the dying?
Do they flick or rub themselves on things?
Are the breathing fast before they die?
Do they hang out at the top of water breathing fast?
Do they swim in crazy circles and bash into things?
Do they die with an empty belly?
Does the belly swell just defore they die or just after?
Have you medicated at all?
What was the breeder feeding?

This may help with a possible diagnoses.

[fishguy456]

Can i ask where you got them from? it may be poor quality. I would reccomend looking into Kennys discus here, or Hans, or Chicago Discus (Any of the sponsors here would be superb quality) as well as adding better food quality as well as more variety. Up the water changes too! besides that it looks good. What kind of heater do you use? 300 watts should be fine.

[warblad79]

Keeping adult discus is generally very easy with regular water changes (3-6) per week, however doing a fry go out is not for the beginner, it takes a considerable amount of time invested, usually including changing 50-200% water changes daily.
With fry that is only a "dime size", they can't be much older then a month. At this age till they are about 2.5-3inches in size they tend to be very susceptible to illness if not in the "ideal environment".
You need three factors to be ideal or you will have a very difficult time growing out any discus.
i) a very clean tank environment, daily water changes 50%-100% (once or twice) a day, vacuum daily and wipe down tank walls and bottom, AM Ni Na all levels must be almost at zero, but with so many water changes this shouldn't be a problem.
ii) a very healthy diet, with small multiple feedings a day. Some people make their own "beef heart mix", some people don't have time, I personally feed Kens egg & immune booster flake mix, and Australian freeze dried black worms, I feed the flake in the mornings and FDBW at night, the fry grow out tank I will feed multiple feedings of the flake mornings and during day and at night they will get the FDBW.
With fry at dime size I would still be feeding BBS till they are about a quarter size (or a bit bigger) and feasting on the FDBW and flakes, at that time I wouldn't feed the BBS to them anymore.
iii) A superb water quality; this water must be not only meeting human health standards but be totally 100% free of all parasites, pathogens and bacteria (including micro bacterium). Just because the water source (ie:city tap water) is treated with chemicals like chlorine and or Ozone, etc, this does NOT mean it's totally free of protozoans, etc that could possibly be chlorine resistant and still end up in your tank. Some people have noted micro bacteria or protozoans in their tap water, requiring additional filtration and or UV sterilizers to remedy the problematic water source.

IMO, If you can achieve success on all of these three factors you will have a very good chance you can breed and raise discus with great success just like John and many other super successful discus breeders, but this takes a considerable amount of dedication and practise.

I agree every words you said except, you forgot to mention to aged the water for 24Hrs and also WC should at least between 100%-200% per day due to that size because they are in delicate stage. I always follow that rules and I can honestly tell you that I rarely loose any fry and the growth rate is excellent.

[DJW]

... Some people have noted micro bacteria or protozoans in their tap water, requiring additional filtration and or UV sterilizers to remedy the problematic water source.

Are you referring here to Mycobacterium, what used to be called fish TB?

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/SRAC-Publication-No.-4706-Mycobacterial-Infections-of-Fish.pdf

[MD.David]

Yes, I agree forgot that part, I have a barrel for aging with auto fill, so it's easy for me to forget, aging is important to exacerbate the ph swing out of the water, and evaporate any chemicals like chlorine, etc.
Cheers mates and thanks for the help, we all need it from time to time.



I agree every words you said except, you forgot to mention to aged the water for 24Hrs and also WC should at least between 100%-200% per day due to that size because they are in delicate stage. I always follow that rules and I can honestly tell you that I rarely loose any fry and the growth rate is excellent.

[MD.David]

Are you referring here to Mycobacterium, what used to be called fish TB?

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/SRAC-Publication-No.-4706-Mycobacterial-Infections-of-Fish.pdf

Yes this is correct.
Fish TB, my mentor called it whirly disease and said this was from TB, I'm not sure how accurate that is, more advanced breeders/healers maybe able to chime in with more accurate information.

Thanks mate for the positive dialogue.

[DISCUS STU]

I had a similar issue some years back. On a hunch I treated with PraziPro and eliminated the problem. I think it may have been conditions in the tank, not the fish. I Treated for 10 days to kill all gill flukes and their eggs.

Otherwise it sounds like you're following a decent regimen. Yes, there can always be more water changes, but this shouldn't be the cause of what your're describing.