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View Full Version : A few basic questions before I start with Discus



kilnakorr
01-13-2016, 04:17 PM
Hello

As the title says I am not a discus owner..yet. I have been looking at the option to add discus to my planted tank but a few questions I haven't been able to get a decent answer to by reading posts and articles.

First question is , yet again, about water changes. I see people saying 50% a day some 50% a week and even read an article where 50% bi-monthly was recommended.
I know that water quality is very important to discus, and I have close attention already to my water regarding my plants, and don't mind slower growth if neccesary.
Would it be sufficient with 50/75% water change weekly (maybe 2x weekly) (thinking about adult discus).
I have already tested the other smaller inhabitants and plants running with 82-84 degree water for some time, and removed all plants from the front of the aquarium for easier cleanup.

I'm not looking for growing discus, but I don't want to proceed with the idea unless there's a good change they'll thrive. I know planted tanks can be a tricky with discus because cleaning and gravel doesn't go well together.

Some basic info:
High light
daily fertilizer (custom mix calculated from tapwater values)
Big canister filter
CO2 (with reactor and ph-controller)
External - UV sterilizer.

Hope I can get some pointers on what I should really consider, before I make up my mind.
Please ignore gramma and spelling errors.
:)

discuspaul
01-13-2016, 05:02 PM
Welcome to the forum.
As you can probably anticipate, the answer to your question is not cut & dried - there is no completely white, or completely black answer, but many shades of grey.

Here's our suggestions:

1. Seriously consider removing your gravel substrate (probably the worst substrate you can have in a discus tank, in terms of being able to clean it up properly - produces poor water quality conditions).

2. If you must start with a planted tank, simply use a light layer of pool filter sand, maintain the tank in a lightly planted condition ( give the fish good free swimming space), and dispense with your high tech efforts (high light, CO2, strict fert regime) for at least the first 6 months, to give yourself the opportunity ( and your fish a good start) to learn their traits & behaviors, and for you to become comfortable keeping them, without the high tech distractions and potential problems associated with it.

2. Start with a minimum of 5 or 6 mature adult fish which are healthy & well-shaped, and obtained only from a reputed source for supplying high quality fish (the forum's sponsors are all in that category).

3. Having the foregoing in place, commit to undertake a thorough tank cleansing routine, with substrate vacs, and glass wipe-downs, along with larger than 50% wcs at least 2 or 3 X a week, at least to begin with. Once you gain some confidence that your fish are doing well, you may be able to consider a large, once weekly wc routine, but that is far from ideal.

4. Be careful with the species, numbers, size, and temperament of any intended tank-mates which should be able to handle the higher discus temps, and do a proper & complete quarantine when placing any 2 groups together.

For the moment, that's my best advice to you.
Best of luck.

Akili
01-13-2016, 06:00 PM
To add to what Paul has posted and Go through the stickies in this section
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?48-Discus-Basics-for-Beginners

Also spend some time and watch this video

https://youtu.be/VXe3VKh7qF8

kilnakorr
01-13-2016, 06:09 PM
Thanks for the welcome and reply.
I have already read up on the best tank setup for discus (bare bottom, planted tanks etc) an I am aware that gravel is not the way to go as cleaning is difficult.
My tank has already been running for 8 months and all plants and other inhabitants are happy with the higher temperature and should have no problem with discus. I am not new to the aquarium arena but haven't had the pleasure of been a discus-owner.
The tanks is rougly 80 gallons when considering gravel, background etc. and as mentioned in first post the front is clear of plants so lots of free space here. However changing out the gravel is not really an option as this will mean a complete do-over and many plants are not going to do well in sand bottom.

I am not 'scared' about nitrite, nitrate phosphor etc. being to high since my tapwater has virtually none of these components. However, other bacteria an pathogens is my main concern.
As I have read nitrate levels can be an indicator of the water quality, but does not really indicate the amount of harmful bacteria present.

I will have no problem starting with 2-3 larger WCs weekly, but afraid I'm not going to be able to do this in the long run.

Is it right that bacteria, pathogens etc. is my man concern? All the other components can be controlled with amount of fertilizer used (when not dosing fertilizer for 3 days all macro values are 0).

kilnakorr
01-13-2016, 06:19 PM
Thanks Akili.

I have already read tons of the posts and watched the video carefully. If I was starting up a new tank I'd probably be doing it differently.
My question here is basically if it's possible to have healthy, happy discus in my already established tank, since it's far from an ideal discus-tank. I'm just wondering if adding discus to the tank can be a success with 1-3 weekly WC or I will end up with unhealthy fish unless I re-arrange the tank completely and prepare for daily WCs.

Akili
01-13-2016, 06:51 PM
Thanks Akili.

I have already read tons of the posts and watched the video carefully. If I was starting up a new tank I'd probably be doing it differently.
My question here is basically if it's possible to have healthy, happy discus in my already established tank, since it's far from an ideal discus-tank. I'm just wondering if adding discus to the tank can be a success with 1-3 weekly WC or I will end up with unhealthy fish unless I re-arrange the tank completely and prepare for daily WCs.In the 1990's all my discus tanks were planted and once a week water change and I had lots of problems. Nowadays I have bare bottom tanks and daily water changes I have had zero problems and my discus are happy.With 3 or more water changes you will less problems.

discuspaul
01-13-2016, 06:57 PM
Whether or not you end up with unhealthy fish unless you do some serious re-arranging is a matter of non- productive and non-illuminating conjecture.
However, I sincerely do believe (although I could be proven wrong) that it needs saying that the odds of maintaining healthy fish on a longer term basis may not be weighted well in your favor by going with the regimen that you've outlined immediately above.

Pathogens and harmful bacteria should not be your main concern.
Doing all you can to create the best possible water quality and conditions should be your main concern, in order to significantly reduce the risks of pathogens and harmful bacteria coming into the equation.

And rightly or wrongly, I for one feel strongly that keeping discus (even full-sized adult discus) in a planted environment with gravel for substrate, while also employing high tech methods is not putting forth an environment which would allow you to greatly reduce the risks of pathogens & harmful bacteria developing in your tank.

I've kept discus in quite a few planted tank set-ups but learned the hard way to always place a lot more focus on the discus than on the plants.

Apologies for the harsh seeming response, but that is my honest view.

discuspaul
01-13-2016, 07:18 PM
P.S. At the end of the day, I believe the question should be:

' Knowing what I now know, have I done everything I could to give myself the best chances of being successful keeping discus, or not ? '

Tshethar
01-13-2016, 07:20 PM
Disclaimer: I'm brand new to discus-keeping myself, and have not attempted what you are contemplating.

Having read a lot of the older threads on here about discus and planted tanks, there are a couple of dedicated hobbyists who have successfully grown out fish in planted tanks over the years. But these folks are definitely exceptional in every sense, and were either doing high-tech experiments (Chad Hughes with ozone) or were extremely fastidious about maintenance (Strawberry Blonde, aka Toni). There may be some others--and wouldn't want to minimize anyone's accomplishments (there's an experiment going on with an algae scrubber w/o water changes, for example)--but there aren't too many, from what I can tell. I applaud ingenuity and the like, but personally have become cautious about jumping into the scenario you propose.

In terms of success stories, more people do manage to keep fully adult, large healthy discus in planted setups of various kinds, sometimes with some added insurance in the form of things like purigen reactors and high wattage UV, though they still do what will seem like a lot of water changes relative to other fish. I think you will find more people to chime in to say that they have done this and it can work, if you stay on top of things.

That said, if you watch the disease section/ER threads on here for a while, there are a lot of folks who add discus of various sizes to generally successful freshwater tanks with plants, continue their usual regimen of care, and then end up in trouble. The stories usually end badly.

The decision for me really hinged on the cost for the fish, and my inexperience with discus. Large, truly adult discus are not cheap, yet those are the fish that are most likely to manage at least adequately in a planted tank. And only in a group of about 5-6.

In one of the older threads on plants and discus, the takeaway point for me was that the undertaking was really best done by hobbyists who first had experience in each domain. It sounds like you have worked with lighting, CO2, ferts, etc. and so have an idea of what's needed for your plants.

That being the case,if you like the idea of discus in your current display tank, why not consider growing out a group of younger fish in a temporary barebottom setup, learning about them in the process, and eventually getting them to the point where you could move them to the planted tank? That way, you'll recognize if they started to show signs of stress or illness, and you'd have a place to return them if it started to go south.

Not sure if that's feasible for you, but that's how I would want to approach it. Good luck with your process, and hope you have fun with it!

dragon1974
01-13-2016, 07:42 PM
I'll give you the advice I got from this forum a few years ago, either have a high tech planted tank or a discus tank, cause you can't have both with very great success without doing the time. And as Tshether said, the ones that have the success put a truck load of time and effort into having that tank. Besides since I moved to BB tanks I get way more complements and I don't have a lot of stuff in my tanks LOL. The fish are the eye candy to me, but if you do have a planted tank you have to stay on top of everything because once you slip you slide

discuspaul
01-13-2016, 09:11 PM
Very well said Bill (Tshether), particularly for a novice to discus and someone who has not ever actually had any experience whatever with planted discus tanks, but obviously you've certainly done your research - well done.

Tshethar
01-14-2016, 12:05 AM
Thanks for the compliment, Paul.

You were one of the people I had in mind who has successfully kept adult discus in a planted tank. Given that you've worked to be able to do that--and have actually pulled it off where others have failed--and yet still have serious reservations about going that route is telling.

OP, don't hesitate to use the search function to look around at what people have tried in the past--it's interesting food for thought even if you don't follow in others' footsteps yourself.

discuspaul
01-14-2016, 12:30 AM
Yes I have, Bill - quite a number of times.
I even successfully grew out juvenile discus in planted tanks a few times.

But I still have huge reservations over, and express a lot of caution about, when advising novices to discus wanting to do it, very simply because I know how much work is involved in keeping a planted discus tank squeaky clean all the time, so that the water quality & conditions can be as near to ideal as is possible in that environment, and so that discus can therefore maintain their health & thrive.
It's difficult, a lot of hard work, and takes time - which I fortunately had a lot of after I had retired, and could devote that essential time to it.

Here's one of my tanks in which I raised juvie discus a couple of years ago. Apologies to those of you who have seen this photo once or twice before.

Believe it or not, this tank was maintained squeaky clean with DAILY efforts:


http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/discuspaul/FTS-Osaka260/CopyofFTS-saka260007.jpg (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/discuspaul/media/FTS-Osaka260/CopyofFTS-saka260007.jpg.html)

Las Vegas
01-14-2016, 01:01 AM
Discuspaul, you the Discus! (compliment)

Kyla
01-14-2016, 01:08 AM
That being the case,if you like the idea of discus in your current display tank, why not consider growing out a group of younger fish in a temporary barebottom setup, learning about them in the process, and eventually getting them to the point where you could move them to the planted tank? That way, you'll recognize if they started to show signs of stress or illness, and you'd have a place to return them if it started to go south.

Not sure if that's feasible for you, but that's how I would want to approach it. Good luck with your process, and hope you have fun with it!

i like that idea. can u set up a second tank? if u raise a group of discus in BB and learn the ropes you can then make an educated decision based on experience re: whether u want to move them into the planted tank. by that point i bet ur sense of aesthetics will have morphed and u enjoy them in the BB :)

Quintin
01-14-2016, 01:24 AM
Agree raise some discus bb to get used to them and in mean time research refugiem sumps��

modealings
01-14-2016, 08:49 AM
Hi Kilnakorr - I too am very new to discus and wanted to do a planted tank. Everyone has their own goals when it comes to raising these fish and it's your hobby so why not find what's best for you.

Here is an idea tho (essentially what I did starting a few months ago). Get a 55 gallon bb tank, big sponge filters, and heater. Get some healthy discus and put them in there. Start with your own wc schedule (although it'll have to be big and daily if your sponge isnt cycled). And then watch your fish and adjust... (This is a ~$100 equipment investment if you go on craigslist vs the many hundreds you might spend on discus).

What I noticed...(with 3-5in fish)
- With 50% wc's every 3rd day, they did mediocre. Spots on their fins from bad water quality, more skittish, but they ate and occasionally looked good.
- Upped wc's to 50% daily, and they looked better. Spots going away and really spreading out their fins to show off. Color better.
- Upped wc's to 80-90% a day and the fish are crushing it! Grew an inch last month. Very colorful. Loving life.

I initially thought the idea of big wc's was ridiculous and overkill. I was proven wrong and the many experts on here right (imagine that...). Anyway, just an idea to try.

kilnakorr
01-14-2016, 01:18 PM
Thanks for all you ideas and advice.
Having a BB tank just feels like serving caviar in an ashtray (personal opinion when looking at BB tanks).
It seems my plan has very low chances of success which was also what I expected to be honest. I guess I should either consider re-doing the setup in the tank or skip the idea of keeping discus, although I have yet to find another fish that comes close to its beauty.

discuspaul
01-14-2016, 01:51 PM
Well go for it, but do it right and you'll be sure to succeed, and you'll get a great deal of satisfaction from keeping these beautiful and graceful fish.

You don't need to go bare-bottom. Just get adult fish, plant lightly in pool filter sand, keep up with large, frequent wcs, and dispense with the CO2 for a while. That should work just fine. Couldn't you consider going with that ?

modealings
01-14-2016, 01:52 PM
I hear you for sure. My problem was when I put discus in a planted tank I ended up with spoiled caviar.

The way I see it I need to:
- Learn how to keep a planted tank (been doing this for a few years).
- Learn how to keep discus (definitely still working on it).
- Learn how to combine the two.

If I jump to the last step (which I have twice), then I don't have success.

Akili
01-14-2016, 01:55 PM
Thanks for all you ideas and advice.
Having a BB tank just feels like serving caviar in an ashtray (personal opinion when looking at BB tanks).
It seems my plan has very low chances of success which was also what I expected to be honest. I guess I should either consider re-doing the setup in the tank or skip the idea of keeping discus, although I have yet to find another fish that comes close to its beauty.So true when it come to their beauty.You can have some plants in small pots. When removing detritus you go around it.Some folks have half to an inch of sand in their tanks.

Tshethar
01-14-2016, 02:52 PM
Just want to say I sympathize with your feeling about the aesthetics. My initial thoughts when I saw the "bare bottom crew" on here was to think: ok, fine, all these people have basement fishrooms or something similar, but I have to put this tank in our living/dining room, and there's no way I'm doing a "glass box" with big black sponge filters bubbling away. :laugh:

What I've learned since is that there is more than one way to create what I have come to appreciate as a good look for a bare bottom display tank. I'll bet if you search "biotope" on here you'll start to get a good idea of what can be done in one vein, which utilizes things like driftwood strategically, sometimes with plants attached, and sometimes with the thinnest of layers of sand and/or "leaf litter."

People also buy or make custom backgrounds, and use textured or natural colored spray paint on the bottoms of tanks to mute the "all-glass" look a bit. Another popular option is to put some plants in small containers (glass, clay, nylon) so you get some lush green but can easily move them around for cleaning, or take them out for medicating.

Most people also find--as have I--that the longer their tanks go without substrate, the happier they are about it. Personally, I can't tell you how glad I am not to be siphoning a sand bed anymore, which I used to have in Tanganyikan cichlid tanks...

Anyway, no need to try to hard to convince you--the whole discus thing is a process, that's for sure--but maybe others will show you nice pics or help you find them on here. Main point is that your living room doesn't have to look like a breeding facility! ;)

kilnakorr
01-15-2016, 05:20 AM
I'm going to reconsider my options and see if further research an ideas will change my opinion on simply tank setup with few plants. Changing to sand instead of gravel will not be an issue.
IF I decide to keep some more difficult plants with C02 requirements, that will also lead to difficulties with WCs. Since It will be impossible to match the tank PH with new water. Even if I match tank PH with RO water, then my C02 levels will be too low.
So many things that just isn't going to work with planted tanks and discus keeping...:(

kilnakorr
01-20-2016, 01:31 PM
Been thinking for some days and decided the plants have to go ☺ So i few new questions has emerged.
Using plants is a 'problem' because its hard to clean around them. I guess plants on roots etc. that can easily be moved won't be an issue correct?
Also, I currently have a light colored 3D backgroynd with black gravel. I'd love to add light sand and use a dark background. I haven't been able to find decent answer if the dark background will cause peppering and dark colors?
Guess it's time to go low-tech, but selling all that CO2 equipment can raise some money for sime fine discus 😀

discuspaul
01-20-2016, 02:15 PM
Certain plants attached to driftwood would not be a problem. (e.g. Anubias & Java Ferns)
You can use a dark background, but use it with very light colored substrate ( or tank bottom painted white on the outside glass) and you'll minimize any potential darkening of many discus, and also avoid pigeon-blood based fish if you don't want to see any peppering.

If you use a 3D type background, suggest you use one that you attach to the outside of the back glass.
Anything affixed to the inside back glass risks getting uneaten food & other wastes in behind it to potentially harbor nasties you don't want.

Here's an example for you - dark blue background with white pool filter sand:

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/discuspaul/FTS-Osaka260/CopyofFTS-saka260007.jpg (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/discuspaul/media/FTS-Osaka260/CopyofFTS-saka260007.jpg.html)

kilnakorr
01-20-2016, 03:40 PM
It looks quite excellent.
However the 3D background is already fixed, and I'm simply planning on giving it a new coating with dark coloring. I'm not too concerned with things getting stuck there as there are no small holes or cracks in it.
The substrate will be as light as possible to make a contrast to the dark background. Any particular grain size that is best suitable or just get the finest possible like 'cichlid sand' ?

I guess I should start already setting up a BB tank for quarantine so they are ready when tank make-over is complete:)

discuspaul
01-20-2016, 04:59 PM
Get # 20 or # 30 grain size pool filter sand.