Questions from a potential discus owner [Archive]

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ungmon

01-20-2016, 05:34 PM

rickztahone

01-20-2016, 05:54 PM

Hello everyone, this is my first post here and I'm just looking to clarify some questions that I've got before I (hopefully) add some discus to my tank.

First and foremost, I have a 182 litre tank (approx 50 gallons) with an AquaClear 70 on it (1135 lpg / 300gph). The tank has sand and is low-tech planted (I know, not recommended) with Amazon Swords, Java Moss, Java Fern, Melon Swords and a few other plants. I've currently got about 27 Neon Tetras in the tank, I've got a heater but it isn't currently in operation as the Australian weather keeps it between 25-28 everyday.

So my questions regarding discus are as follows:

1. How many (if any) discus can I keep, I've looked around and I've gotten mixed results ranging from 1 to 6
You want at least 5, however, your tank does not seem suitable to me as a discus tank. It is on the small side AND you have plants/substrate

2. Is my filter flow rate OK?
Yes, adding a sponge filter wouldn't hurt you.

3. How necessary is RO water?
not necessary at all to raise juveniles

4. The tank is in a fairly high traffic zone, will this be an issue?
Not really. I have mine in a high traffic area, but you have to get your discus used to it.

5. How much % water changes should I do and how often?
Daily water changes and the higher the percentage the better. I personally do around 60-70% WC daily.

6. When looking for a discus what is a healthy "eye count" and does this apply to juveniles?
The eye count refers to how many eyes you can imaginatively stack on top of each other to determine if the discus is stunted. 7 is a healthy number and the goal.
Thank you all very much in advance, I look forward to getting to know you all! ;)

answers in red

Phillydubs

01-20-2016, 05:59 PM

Welcome! Hope I can help you with some of your questions...

1) Your tank size now is pretty much the bare minimum for discus and even at what it is, you would be looking at 5 adult discus... What are the measurements of the tank? Is it a longer rectangle or more cube liked? You say about 50 gallons so I am not sure what you are working with and that will determine the final answer to this... Many people say 10 gal per fish, but you need length, I have tried in a cube like setting before and failed miserably. Also, having plants might be an issue and I will get to that later...

2) Filter flow is fine with that, your filter again is bare minimum, I might suggest adding a sponge filter or another 70 or upping to a 110. I currently have a 55 gallon with a 110 and a sponge on it with no issue.

3) RO water is not needed for your set-up. Just make sure to age and heat your water properly. Put that heater to use as you do not want fluctuation in the temp which may cause issues.

4) It may be an issue at first because they will be new but for healthy discus this will not be an issue and once they have settled and you are taking good care of them and feeding them they will just follow you around the room and beg for food.

5) 100% daily! In this size tank you will have no choice, you may be able to go every other day depending on your food choice and feeding schedule but at least to start and for the first 6 months to a year maybe you should go 100 daily. I dont keep planted tanks so I dont know how this will effect them but with 27 neons and 5 discus thats a big load and will require big changes. Also neons dont seem to do well at discus temps of 82-84 so you might want to re-home them and again the plant issue... not sure how they will do at this constant temp...

6) I have never heard this term so I can't help there... Not sure what supplier you have access to but I would go with a repuitable breeder or supplier that can ship big healthy adults to you... You will have a dreadful time trying to grow out juvies in that tank and it shouldnt even be an option for you...

In my humble opinion, you are taking on a lot with that set-up and discus may not be for you, especially if this is your first go round... If you insist you must get adults and really stay on top of your changes as I said...

If you want to do it right, clear out the tank, go bare bottom or a dustong of sand and get 5-6 discus and still do massive changes and enjoy them... I foresee an uphill battle if you go with what you have now... Can it be done, sure, but I would leave that to a very seasoned hobbyist...

Phillydubs

01-20-2016, 06:00 PM

I guess I could have waited 5 minutes and said, yea what Rick said!!! Hahaha...

Nice to see we had pretty much the same response Rick!! LOLOL...

rickztahone

01-20-2016, 06:22 PM

I guess I could have waited 5 minutes and said, yea what Rick said!!! Hahaha...

Nice to see we had pretty much the same response Rick!! LOLOL...

lol, what Phil said! Your advice was more detailed ;)

and I do agree with the large 100% water changes. If you get a chance, check out Phil's 55g tank and you can see how tiny discus can make a 55g tank look.

Phillydubs

01-20-2016, 06:24 PM

Tiny but happy!!! Lol...

ungmon

01-20-2016, 06:28 PM

answers in red

Welcome! Hope I can help you with some of your questions...

1) Your tank size now is pretty much the bare minimum for discus and even at what it is, you would be looking at 5 adult discus... What are the measurements of the tank? Is it a longer rectangle or more cube liked? You say about 50 gallons so I am not sure what you are working with and that will determine the final answer to this... Many people say 10 gal per fish, but you need length, I have tried in a cube like setting before and failed miserably. Also, having plants might be an issue and I will get to that later...

Thank you both so much for your speedy answers! This forum really is great :D
Regarding your question about tank dimensions, it is a 4ft AquaOne Horizon.

On another note, would it not be possible to keep just 4 or maybe even 3 discus in order to lighten the load on filtration and water changes? Is there anyway I could make this work or are discus simply not for me? Also, would it make much of a difference if I mention that my plants are arranged in a very orderly fashion (just all up against the back wall), I know the substrate is still an issue but surely with the plants, for the most part out of the way, water changes and cleanups should be a fair bit easier right?

Thank you both again so much.

rickztahone

01-20-2016, 06:47 PM

Thank you both so much for your speedy answers! This forum really is great :D
Regarding your question about tank dimensions, it is a 4ft AquaOne Horizon.

On another note, would it not be possible to keep just 4 or maybe even 3 discus in order to lighten the load on filtration and water changes? Is there anyway I could make this work or are discus simply not for me? Also, would it make much of a difference if I mention that my plants are arranged in a very orderly fashion (just all up against the back wall), I know the substrate is still an issue but surely with the plants, for the most part out of the way, water changes and cleanups should be a fair bit easier right?

Thank you both again so much.

Do you have a pic?

On the issue with getting 3 or 4, I will say no. Do not get a group less than five. The discus will fight very aggressively in smaller numbers. They are social fish and like to be in larger groups. When you put them in smaller groups, especially in a small tank, they will pick on others and typically beat down their immune system which is when discus typically start showing signs of illness.

Phillydubs

01-20-2016, 07:00 PM

What he said! Lolol...

Not but Rick is spot on, def no to that amount... minimum of 5...

The order of your pants doesn't matter unless you want to replant into smaller pots, I have to assume the food and gunk will want to grow around and near the plants so you will have to get in there and clean well without disturbing them, tough task for sure...

MattArmstrong

01-20-2016, 07:06 PM

1. How many (if any) discus can I keep, I've looked around and I've gotten mixed results ranging from 1 to 6

What I've noticed is that people often want to pack the max in, but don't ask about aesthetics.

I've seen threads started by people putting juvenile Discus in smaller tanks and they look great. You see fewer examples of full grown discus in smaller tanks. In my opinion, they look worse.

One recent example I found was on an Oscar fish forum, of all places. :p The person is keeping 9 Discus in a 65 gallon tank. From my read, the tank is given daily, skilled, care. But, to my eye, there is too much fish and not enough "negative space" -- they look really crammed in there, and it isn't the look I'd go for. Go here to see a picture -- fortunately you don't need an account to see pictures on this forum: http://www.oscarfish.com/forum/general-freshwater-advice/1682-65-gallon-tall-blackwater-discus-tank.html?start=670#57990

Another thing about this example tank: the fish come from a quality source (Discus Hans, i.e. Stendker fish from Germany) but the pigeon bloods show a lot of peppering because the tank is dark. Something to watch out for.

Here he says his fish come from Hans: http://www.oscarfish.com/forum/general-freshwater-advice/1682-65-gallon-tall-blackwater-discus-tank.html?start=140#18961
Here is a post of the fish when he first got them (not much peppering): http://www.oscarfish.com/forum/general-freshwater-advice/1682-65-gallon-tall-blackwater-discus-tank.html?start=160#19015

...compare that to the first link I included. So, if you go with a darker tank, you might stay away from the pigeon blood strains.

Phillydubs

01-20-2016, 07:12 PM

Those tank dimensions highlight my point from earlier... no length... while it may be a 65 gallon, a standard 55 is more suitable for them due to the length... The OP says he has a 4 foot tank so that is great...

IMO those fish don't look so great, cloudy eyes, dark bodies, peppering... they do not look to be in the best health at all...

I have 9 discus in a standard 55 and while crowded they are well cared for and don't look like these fish do and the negative space you speak of is a personal preference, some people like a maxed out tank and love that the fish are all over, I have seen massive tanks with a small amount of fish... it is to the tank owners eye and preference...

ungmon

01-20-2016, 07:13 PM

Do you have a pic?

On the issue with getting 3 or 4, I will say no. Do not get a group less than five. The discus will fight very aggressively in smaller numbers. They are social fish and like to be in larger groups. When you put them in smaller groups, especially in a small tank, they will pick on others and typically beat down their immune system which is when discus typically start showing signs of illness.

Here is a photo of my setup. http://i.imgur.com/xRFj3yF.jpg

ungmon

01-20-2016, 07:14 PM

ungmon

01-20-2016, 07:17 PM

What I've noticed is that people often want to pack the max in, but don't ask about aesthetics.

I've seen threads started by people putting juvenile Discus in smaller tanks and they look great. You see fewer examples of full grown discus in smaller tanks. In my opinion, they look worse.

One recent example I found was on an Oscar fish forum, of all places. :p The person is keeping 9 Discus in a 65 gallon tank. From my read, the tank is given daily, skilled, care. But, to my eye, there is too much fish and not enough "negative space" -- they look really crammed in there, and it isn't the look I'd go for. Go here to see a picture -- fortunately you don't need an account to see pictures on this forum: http://www.oscarfish.com/forum/general-freshwater-advice/1682-65-gallon-tall-blackwater-discus-tank.html?start=670#57990

Another thing about this example tank: the fish come from a quality source (Discus Hans, i.e. Stendker fish from Germany) but the pigeon bloods show a lot of peppering because the tank is dark. Something to watch out for.

Here he says his fish come from Hans: http://www.oscarfish.com/forum/general-freshwater-advice/1682-65-gallon-tall-blackwater-discus-tank.html?start=140#18961
Here is a post of the fish when he first got them (not much peppering): http://www.oscarfish.com/forum/general-freshwater-advice/1682-65-gallon-tall-blackwater-discus-tank.html?start=160#19015

...compare that to the first link I included. So, if you go with a darker tank, you might stay away from the pigeon blood strains.

Yeah I can totally see what you mean about having too many in that (relatively speaking) small a tank.

Phillydubs

01-20-2016, 07:18 PM

ungmon

01-20-2016, 07:41 PM

Are you dead set on those plants? They are minimal so maybe you can try but I would be prepared to remove them with the first sign of issue...

Is that black sand?

Are you committed to large daily water changes?

I'm dead set on about 4 of the plants, the rest are expendable. Yes that is black sand. I don't know if I could keep up with the daily water changes, would maybe every other day work? Is there a point in the fish's life where there amount and frequency of water changes would die down? If so, what is stopping me from buying the discus at that point?

Please excuse my ignorance. :o

rickztahone

01-20-2016, 07:44 PM

I'm dead set on about 4 of the plants, the rest are expendable. Yes that is black sand. I don't know if I could do the daily water changes, would maybe every other day work? Is there a point in the fish's life where there amount and frequency of water changes would die down? If so, what is stopping me from buying the discus at that point?

Please excuse my ignorance. :o

Yes and no. Your absoulte limiting factor is the smallness of your tank. If you had a 75g tank and had no substrate and maybe potted plants with only 5 discus, you could get away with every other day WC's. The problem is that your tank may not support that many discus in such a small tank with the other things you have going on in there. You can always start with adults that require less feedings and in turn require less WC's, but you run a very thin line between balanced and potentially crashing the tank because of your footprint. Is there no way to get a 75g instead? It is almost the same footprint.

ungmon

01-20-2016, 07:58 PM

Yes and no. Your absoulte limiting factor is the smallness of your tank. If you had a 75g tank and had no substrate and maybe potted plants with only 5 discus, you could get away with every other day WC's. The problem is that your tank may not support that many discus in such a small tank with the other things you have going on in there. You can always start with adults that require less feedings and in turn require less WC's, but you run a very thin line between balanced and potentially crashing the tank because of your footprint. Is there no way to get a 75g instead? It is almost the same footprint.

Unfortunately a 75g is not an option at this time and probably won't be for a good while. Do I have any other options if I wish to keep discus?

Thank you again for everything

rickztahone

01-20-2016, 08:01 PM

Unfortunately a 75g is not an option at this time and probably won't be for a good while. Do I have any other options if I wish to keep discus?

Thank you again for everything

Short of 80%-100% water changes daily, no.

ungmon

01-21-2016, 12:08 AM

Short of 80%-100% water changes daily, no.

If I did the daily 80%-100% water changes, would that be sufficient for me to keep discus? What kind of problems would I run into if I didn't do such water changes (not that I intend to, just curious)

bamzam

01-21-2016, 01:29 AM

If I did the daily 80%-100% water changes, would that be sufficient for me to keep discus? What kind of problems would I run into if I didn't do such water changes (not that I intend to, just curious)

I accidentally deleted my post lol. I always see people stress the importance of daily water changes and bare bottom tanks to new hobbyists. It was my understanding that daily water changes and pristine water conditions were mostly to grow juvi discus to their full potential. I read somewhere that adult discus dont require as many water changes. Maybe you should buy a set of adults if you want to keep discus and are concerned with the high maintenance?

Kyla

01-21-2016, 02:08 AM

how about the idea of purchasing a confirmed pair and having only 2 adult discus in the tank?

ungmon

01-21-2016, 05:26 AM

how about the idea of purchasing a confirmed pair and having only 2 adult discus in the tank?

Is than an option I can take i.e it is okay to have 2 given that they're a breeding pair? What if I have no interest in breeding them? What would I do with the eggs etc.

Also, wouldn't a breeding pair prefer to be alone rather than be accompanied by an entire school of neon tetras?

Kyla

01-21-2016, 08:47 AM

Is than an option I can take i.e it is okay to have 2 given that they're a breeding pair? What if I have no interest in breeding them? What would I do with the eggs etc.

Also, wouldn't a breeding pair prefer to be alone rather than be accompanied by an entire school of neon tetras?

the babies in my tanks dont last long after they attach to the parents because the filter current is so strong. the parents do their thing and then the babies disappear and then they lay more eggs and repeat the process again and again. they seem happy to tend to their eggs.

in my main tank i have had multiple pairs with batches of eggs and they defended their corner but didnt seem overly upset by the other fish present. they werent able to raise young with the other fish arond and the current in the water blowing babies around.

the neons r an issue because the temps discus like are at or beyond the very high end of their tolerance level. plus, adult discus have been known to hunt and eat neons, esp if they werent raised with the neons.

rickztahone

01-21-2016, 01:44 PM

Is than an option I can take i.e it is okay to have 2 given that they're a breeding pair? What if I have no interest in breeding them? What would I do with the eggs etc.

Also, wouldn't a breeding pair prefer to be alone rather than be accompanied by an entire school of neon tetras?

The discus will more than likely kill off any tetras. Neon's in particular aren't good tankmates for discus because they do not do well in the warmer water that discus require.

Adults are easier to take care simply because they require less feedings which in turn requires less water changes. We come back to the same problem though, your tank is so small that even if you feed a small amount, your tank could easily get high in nitrates which discus do not like.

A mated pair option is actually a good one. It would be a pretty penny to get a mated pair especially considering the fact that you do not want to breed, but it is an option.

ungmon

01-21-2016, 06:09 PM

The discus will more than likely kill off any tetras. Neon's in particular aren't good tankmates for discus because they do not do well in the warmer water that discus require.

Adults are easier to take care simply because they require less feedings which in turn requires less water changes. We come back to the same problem though, your tank is so small that even if you feed a small amount, your tank could easily get high in nitrates which discus do not like.

A mated pair option is actually a good one. It would be a pretty penny to get a mated pair especially considering the fact that you do not want to breed, but it is an option.

Just to clarify, how many feedings do discuss require daily. Is it possible to cut this number back?

rickztahone

01-21-2016, 06:16 PM

Just to clarify, how many feedings do discuss require daily. Is it possible to cut this number back?

I feed my discus anywhere from 3-5 times a day depending on my work schedule. Can you cut it back? Absolutely, but you have to find a good balance or else your discus with quickly stop growing at full potential and start growing less than normal. At this point they are still healthy, just not to their full potential. If you keep down that road and feed less, do less water changes, your discus will eventually not look that great.

Kyla

01-21-2016, 06:57 PM

re: ur statement that u want to keep some plants - have u thought about putting them in pots? u could eveb hide the pots with decor (i actually dont hate the look of pots myself tho)

and not all plants will require co2 or ferts or even substrate. i have anubias and java fern wedged betweeb the cracks of logs, or tied to decor with fishing line, or suction-cupped to the walls of tanks

here r some pics of tanks without co2 or ferts where the plants are growing like crazy. the 210g has jungle val that is taller than me!! its growing out of a small glass pot in the back corner. that sword plant is in a pot too. the floor of tank has areas of pool filter sand for the loaches with most of it BB

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/kylasfish/Mobile%20Uploads/9BE41744-849B-4994-BFA4-E4D7EAC73198.png_zpscslvqfn0.jpeg (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/kylasfish/media/Mobile%20Uploads/9BE41744-849B-4994-BFA4-E4D7EAC73198.png_zpscslvqfn0.jpeg.html)

this tank is quite cluttered and most of the plants have been sold, but even with all those plants the BB floor was easy to clean cuz they were in pots

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/kylasfish/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsrm26wbqx.jpg (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/kylasfish/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsrm26wbqx.jpg.html)

Kyla

01-21-2016, 07:20 PM

another idea for plants is to grow them above your tank with their roots hanging into the water. it can look pretty cool, and depending where ur tank is set up u could get really good growth, even trailling vines along the wall behind the tank etc

this pothos isnt a great example cuz its growth isnt awesome in my dark basement, but u get the idea

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/kylasfish/Mobile%20Uploads/98C13095-3B49-45FA-9657-7D911D3188EC_zpsiudqqnux.jpg (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/kylasfish/media/Mobile%20Uploads/98C13095-3B49-45FA-9657-7D911D3188EC_zpsiudqqnux.jpg.html)

ungmon

01-21-2016, 09:57 PM

Assuming that the frequent water changes, removal of substrate and plants are to keep and maintain high water quality. If I could otherwise manage to keep ammonia, nitrite and nitrates down, would all the above be necessary?

Thank you again to everyone for your input and help.

Filip

01-22-2016, 03:42 AM

ungmon

01-22-2016, 06:56 AM

Yes. Bacterial load build up in water column is something you can't filter out of system .

Hey thanks for the reply, could you please elaborate on what bacterial load is and how it affects the fish?

Thank you

Filip

01-22-2016, 10:25 AM

Here is a link to a thread that can bring this WCs subject closer to you.
In short terms discus originate from water with very low pH and in such waters amounts and diversity of different bacterias are very small compared to neutral pH waters.
Their immune system is not equipped to deal with high bacterial loads in water, that's why we try to keep it as sterile as its possible in our tanks.
BTW , in labs. people can measure and rate bacterial content of water per cm3 or per volume of water, but we don't have that kind of test at home to keep that in track.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?120956-What-Are-Bioload-and-Biomass-and-Why-They-Are-Important

Filip

01-22-2016, 10:31 AM

Here is another link to a very useful video , just in case you've missed it.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122038-Are-you-new-to-discus-WATCH-THIS-VIDEO!

ungmon

01-22-2016, 11:27 PM

Here is another link to a very useful video , just in case you've missed it.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122038-Are-you-new-to-discus-WATCH-THIS-VIDEO!

Thanks for that, just watched it in its entirety, lot's of helpful information in there.