Discus adjust to new ph?

[delta5]

I'm heading out to pick up my breeding pair. They're currently in 7.6ph, 11 GH. My tank is at 7ph, 9GH. Used a mix of RO/tap water and seachem alk powder. Can discus adjust to a new ph that different?

[discuspaul]

Sure they can. It's not that great a difference. Some might even do a simple plop & drop immediately if no quarantining is needed ... i.e. no other fish in the tank - which I assume not.

Place the fish with their bag water into a bucket when you get home. Add a small dose of Prime to the bucket to counter any potential traces of ammonia in that bag water (Test that water to see where it's at - i.e. ammonia, pH.)

Add some of your 7.0 tank water to the bucket, say approx. 1/4 to 1/3 of the volume of water in the bucket, & do the same a couple more times - about 20 mins. or so apart.
Test the pH in the bucket - should be just fine then for netting & transferring only the fish to the tank, not the water.

[Filip]

i always do a drop by drop adjustment out of prophilactics when i introduce new fish in my tank.
i tie a knot on a airline tube and adjust a knot for desired dripping speed of water from tank to the bucket.
i aim to get the whole bucket filled with 100 % tank and zero LFS water in about 1-2 hours period.
This might be overdoin it but having a co2 pumped tanks ive paid the price on more than one ocassion with flopping the fish straight from bag .

[delta5]

Thank you very much. They're getting little by little tank water in their bags.

[discuspaul]

Drop & plop is often quite successful under certain specific circumstances - in fact it can be safer than a slow water acclimation process according to some experienced discus-keepers, and I'm in agreement with that.

Out of curiosity, Filip, can you recall the circumstances, or the reason behind you paying the price on more than one occasion with plopping discus straight from the bag ? (Presumably you netted them first from the bag, then plopped them into your tank from the net.)

Was it a large pH differential from carry home bag to tank, or some other reason - e.g. possible pH swings in the tank itself from the use of pressurized CO2 ?

[discuspaul]

Thank you very much. They're getting little by little tank water in their bags.

Did you test for ammonia in the bag water to see where that was ?

[delta5]

Did you test for ammonia in the bag water to see where that was ?

Yes, it is 0-0-9

[DJW]

I believe plop-n-drop is safer when the tank pH is higher than the pH in the bag. The ammonia in the bag (which is at a high level after shipping) will be converted to the more toxic free ammonia as water is added in the conventional way of acclimating.

When I receive fish I test pH and TDS to decide which method is better. Also, if the TDS is much higher in the bag, I add salt to the tank to avoid a sudden osmotic change.

[delta5]

They're in the tank. One wasn't doing very well in the bag. She was super dark and sort of titled over on the bottom of the bag. Now the male's fins are all out and his color is good. The female is becoming lighter and you can see her color a lot better now. I'm assuming them sticking together in the back corner of the tank is normal. I'll post a photo in a minute.

[delta5]

93634

They both look like the lighter one now and more color. Crazy how fast their color changes. One of them keeps backing up against the other one like it is trying to mate? I'm assuming if this is a mating move it means my tank is good for them?

edit: I put in a mix of fine sand and coarse sand. The tank is still covered in finger prints but is clean on the inside.

[warblad79]

They are quite small for breeding pair and i thought they look like a juvenile.

[delta5]

They are quite small for breeding pair and i thought they look like a juvenile.

They're right over 3.5" from front to end of tail.

[discuspaul]

I have to agree with warblad - they certainly look small and don't look like a breeding pair. What was your source for these fish ?

[warblad79]

They're right over 3.5" from front to end of tail.

If I were you, I would focus on raising them. I would my set goal to 6"+ mark rather than breeding them at early age. Because once they start breeding their growth will become slower or no growth at all so basically you'll stunt them.

[discuspaul]

I believe plop-n-drop is safer when the tank pH is higher than the pH in the bag. The ammonia in the bag (which is at a high level after shipping) will be converted to the more toxic free ammonia as water is added in the conventional way of acclimating.

When I receive fish I test pH and TDS to decide which method is better. Also, if the TDS is much higher in the bag, I add salt to the tank to avoid a sudden osmotic change.

I'm no chemist, but you have me confused with your comments.
Ammonia (NH3) is toxic (also called 'free' ammonia). Ammonium (NH4) is relatively non toxic.
These are the only 2 types of 'ammonia' that I'm aware of.

It seems what you are saying is that what is contained in the bag upon shipping & after arrival at a destination (which you said is ammonia at a high level level after shipping - which may of course be quite correct, more or less) but that it is 'converted' to toxic ammonia as water is added through acclimation. It's already toxic, how can it be even more toxic when ammonia-free tank water is added through acclimation ? After all, ammonia is ammonia, whether called 'free' or not.

It will only get to a higher level of concentration, thus more toxic, by adding more ammonia.

I would think that adding ammonia-free water from a tank would only tend to dilute the level of toxic ammonia in the bag water, not increase the concentration, thus the toxicity.
What am I missing here ?

[delta5]

If I were you, I would focus on raising them. I would my set goal to 6"+ mark rather than breeding them at early age. Because once they start breeding their growth will become slower or no growth at all so basically you'll stunt them.

How do I stop them from breeding?

[DJW]

My understanding is that the toxicity of the ammonia is increased when water of a higher pH is added drip-wise slowly to the bag, and that ammonia burn is often the result, as ammonium becomes free ammonia with the rise in pH.

I'm not sure if the dilution of existing ammonia will overtake the rise in toxicity... hmmm, good point.

Here is an ammonia/pH calculator. Its interesting to play with the numbers.

http://www.hbuehrer.ch/Rechner/Ammonia.html

[discuspaul]

How do I stop them from breeding?

Delta, they really appear to be juveniles @ 3.0"-3.5", and therefore not yet of breeding age.
However, they could be adult, or near adult, while stunted. If that is the case and they begin spawning, you can't stop letting nature take it's course.

But I don't think you need to worry about that. You may very well not have a mated pair, even if they were sold to you as such. I repeat, what was your source of these fish ?

[delta5]

If I were you, I would focus on raising them. I would my set goal to 6"+ mark rather than breeding them at early age. Because once they start breeding their growth will become slower or no growth at all so basically you'll stunt them.


Delta, they really appear to be juveniles @ 3.0"-3.5", and therefore not yet of breeding age.
However, they could be adult, or near adult, while stunted. If that is the case and they begin spawning, you can't stop letting nature take it's course.

But I don't think you need to worry about that. You may very well not have a mated pair, even if they were sold to you as such. I repeat, what was your source of these fish ?

I got them from gerbers tropical fish.

[discuspaul]

I got them from gerbers tropical fish.

Are you speaking of Gerber's Tropical Fish in Dayton, Ohio ?
If so, they have a photo of breeding discus pairs on their website, being offered for sale @ $249.99 on sale (reg $299.99)
They do look like adult fish that are of a breeding size/age, but your fish do not look anything at all like those.
They look like either juveniles, or stunted fish.

If they are juveniles, you can grow them out, and they may breed eventually (several months down the road).
But they won't breed at an immature juvenile age.

If they are stunted, they will likely remain that way, or possibly grow a little more, and more slowly, but should not become more stunted than they are now.

[discuspaul]

My understanding is that the toxicity of the ammonia is increased when water of a higher pH is added drip-wise slowly to the bag, and that ammonia burn is often the result, as ammonium becomes free ammonia with the rise in pH.

I'm not sure if the dilution of existing ammonia will overtake the rise in toxicity... hmmm, good point.

Here is an ammonia/pH calculator. Its interesting to play with the numbers.

http://www.hbuehrer.ch/Rechner/Ammonia.html

That may be the case, but if so there would need to be a source of non-toxic ammonium to be converted to ammonia, to create a more toxic level of ammonia.

There would be no ammonium in the bag water (only ammonia), and I would expect there would likely be very little, if any, ammonium in cycled ammonia-free tank water, so it's difficult to envision that adding that water would not effectively dilute the ammonia level and its toxicity from the bag water, even if there were some ammonium residual in the tank water.
Granted the dilution may take longer/be lesser though.

[warblad79]

They have eggs on the picture and it's not a good sign. which means they are probably an adult age fish and seems stunted.

[discuspaul]

They have eggs on the picture and it's not a good sign. which means they are probably an adult age fish and seems stunted.

That's not eggs, that's sand. Relook at post # 10 & read the OP's comments about having some sand in the tank.

[DJW]

That may be the case, but if so there would need to be a source of non-toxic ammonium to be converted to ammonia, to create a more toxic level of ammonia.

There would be no ammonium in the bag water (only ammonia), and I would expect there would likely be very little, if any, ammonium in cycled ammonia-free tank water, so it's difficult to envision that adding that water would not effectively dilute the ammonia level and its toxicity from the bag water, even if there were some ammonium residual in the tank water.
Granted the dilution may take longer/be lesser though.

Paul,

LOL now you are getting me confused...

Fish excrete both ammonia and ammonium, but as soon as these go into solution the ammonia becomes ammonium if the pH is low. In this form it is less toxic, but in a sense it is lying in wait. An increase in pH converts it, makes it toxic.

The ratio of each depends on the pH, that is total ammonia (what we measure) doesn't change.

If you have a bag of water at a low pH that contains the ammonium ion (NH4+), increasing the pH pulls a proton away and changes it into ammonia (NH3), thereby making it more toxic.

Dan

[discuspaul]

Paul,

LOL now you are getting me confused...

Fish excrete both ammonia and ammonium, but as soon as these go into solution the ammonia becomes ammonium if the pH is low. In this form it is less toxic, but in a sense it is lying in wait. An increase in pH converts it, makes it toxic.

The ratio of each depends on the pH, that is total ammonia (what we measure) doesn't change.

If you have a bag of water at a low pH that contains the ammonium ion (NH4+), increasing the pH pulls a proton away and changes it into ammonia (NH3), thereby making it more toxic.

Dan

But Dan, the bag water is 7.6, whereas the tank water being added is 7.0 - therefore the dilution is lowering the bag water pH. This is the reverse of the conditions you stated as causing the toxicity levels to raise through conversion. See your post # 17 just above. Do I not have this right?

I too am now getting more confused :)
My understanding is that the original ammonia conversion to ammonium occurs @ low pH levels- in the 6.0 range or lower - certainly under 7.0 from what I've read. The bag water is at 7.6 at inception (before tank water drip) and lowers only slightly with the drip acclimation.
So at that pH level, there would be little or no ammonium present to be converted back to ammonia, would there ?

[DJW]

Paul, I think there are two bits of confusion here, mostly my fault.

First, in my post #17 I was discussing the opposite situation that the OP has, to show that an acclimation period was appropriate since the fish will be going into a pH lower than the bag they arrived in. And to make the point that plop-n-drop is better if the pH will be going up.

Second, ammonia (generic term = total ammonia = NH3 + NH4+) becomes more toxic as pH rises. See the calculator linked earlier, and see also:

http://www2.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/pH-Ammonia.htm

That's why when a poster on the forum is panicked because their ammonia (total) is 1 ppm, I'm thinking, Hell what's your pH?... because if their pH is 6.5 its almost entirely harmless, whereas if their pH is 8.5 they better be changing some water.

Dan

[warblad79]

That's not eggs, that's sand. Relook at post # 10 & read the OP's comments about having some sand in the tank.

They have picture at Gerber Tropical site, they laid eggs on the on the white pipe

[discuspaul]

Where is that ? Please give me the link, so I can see that.

[DJW]

Where is that ? Please give me the link, so I can see that.

http://gerberstropicalfish.com/?page_id=276

Paul, if you scroll down about 80% of the way on this page you see the pair. This is apparently the pair the OP bought since he posted this very picture the other day.

Dan

[discuspaul]

http://gerberstropicalfish.com/?page_id=276

Paul, if you scroll down about 80% of the way on this page you see the pair. This is apparently the pair the OP bought since he posted this very picture the other day.

Dan

Oh, what section did he post it in - title ?
I don't recall seeing it, can you give me the link, please.

[DJW]

Here is the OP's earlier post:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122733-Are-these-good-Discus

They look like the same fish to me.

Dan

Wait.. maybe not the same fish now that I look again...

[discuspaul]

Well now, if I'd seen & read that post before getting involved in this one, I would of course have put forth much different commentary.
I wish you had clued me into this previous thread of yours before, Delta, or specifically pointed me to the pic in Gerber's site.
It would have simplified things a great deal, for me anyway.

And my apologies go out to warblad79 for any comments I made about his posts which were not possibly in sync with what he had seen or knew, but I didn't.

However, now that I've seen both pics, and compared them one to the other, I, like Dan above (DJW), can't really see & believe them to be the same fish, but I guess they really are.

[warblad79]

Well now, if I'd seen & read that post before getting involved in this one, I would of course have put forth much different commentary.
I wish you had clued me into this previous thread of yours before, Delta, or specifically pointed me to the pic in Gerber's site.
It would have simplified things a great deal, for me anyway.

And my apologies go out to warblad79 for any comments I made about his posts which were not possibly in sync with what he had seen or knew, but I didn't.

However, now that I've seen both pics, and compared them one to the other, I, like Dan above (DJW), can't really see & believe them to be the same fish, but I guess they really are.


No worry not a big deal at all.

[delta5]

Well now, if I'd seen & read that post before getting involved in this one, I would of course have put forth much different commentary.
I wish you had clued me into this previous thread of yours before, Delta, or specifically pointed me to the pic in Gerber's site.
It would have simplified things a great deal, for me anyway.

And my apologies go out to warblad79 for any comments I made about his posts which were not possibly in sync with what he had seen or knew, but I didn't.

However, now that I've seen both pics, and compared them one to the other, I, like Dan above (DJW), can't really see & believe them to be the same fish, but I guess they really are.

They're one in the same. It is odd how different they look since getting them in my tank. I'm assuming the bright colorful one is the male, but his stripes are just amazing now. The female's stripes can be hard to notice since she is still staying dark most of the time.

They got their first meal this morning since bringing them home. They luv the frozen beef heart and are actively picking around in the sand now. Is it normal for them to go from one side of the tank next to each other in an up and down movement? Kinda like a 'W' up and down.

[discuspaul]

They're one in the same. It is odd how different they look since getting them in my tank. I'm assuming the bright colorful one is the male, but his stripes are just amazing now. The female's stripes can be hard to notice since she is still staying dark most of the time.

They got their first meal this morning since bringing them home. They luv the frozen beef heart and are actively picking around in the sand now. Is it normal for them to go from one side of the tank next to each other in an up and down movement? Kinda like a 'W' up and down.

Keep giving them large, frequent wcs. They should come around fairly quickly & return to normal coloration & behavior.
As for what they're doing now, it's likely a result of some continuing stress over what they've just been through, and needing time to get comfortable with their new surroundings. Be patient.

[delta5]

Thank you. I'm thinking about dropping in some driftwood, but will soak it in pure ro water first since it was in with the GT and rams. Is it possible to give them sand substrate and still have healthy fry?

[Filip]

Drop & plop is often quite successful under certain specific circumstances - in fact it can be safer than a slow water acclimation process according to some experienced discus-keepers, and I'm in agreement with that.

Out of curiosity, Filip, can you recall the circumstances, or the reason behind you paying the price on more than one occasion with plopping discus straight from the bag ? (Presumably you netted them first from the bag, then plopped them into your tank from the net.)

Was it a large pH differential from carry home bag to tank, or some other reason - e.g. possible pH swings in the tank itself from the use of pressurized CO2 ?


The main reason that i can think of is much lower ph in my tank from pumping co2 in it .And fish in general are not tolerant to sudden lowering of ph opposed to instantly putting them in higher ph values. Maybe there is something else in co2 water , that im not aware of , who knows ?
I have lost some red nose rummies , royal neon tetras , scalaires ,amano shrimps, red chery shrimps , almost lost 1 - 7 inch red turq. etc. etc.
They ussualy fall down , swimming franaticly in circles , breathe very fast and when i did large WC to save them, they instantly started acting better.

[DJW]

The main reason that i can think of is much lower ph in my tank from pumping co2 in it .And fish in general are not tolerant to sudden lowering of ph opposed to instantly putting them in higher ph values...

If the pH in the tank is much lower than in the bag, as in Filip's case, slow acclimation is better. Otherwise plop-n-drop is better. Here is why I think this way:

During shipping two things happen. The fish are excreting ammonia, and their respiration adds CO2 to the water, which lowers the pH in the bag. The lowered pH leaves the ammonia in its less toxic form.

When you open the bag, CO2 begins to leave solution, causing the pH to rise. The rise in pH changes the ammonium to toxic free ammonia. In these conditions, during a slow drip acclimation the pH and therefore the ammonia toxicity is increasing both from the off-gassing of CO2 and from the addition of more alkaline water by the drip. The fish are stewing in toxic ammonia, and the longer the drip the more ammonia burn.

Here is an old thread on this topic. See especially posts #14 and #15:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?73468-Acclimating-LFS-Discus

In Filip's case, because he uses CO2 injection, he will be adding water to the bag that keeps the pH from rising in the bag, while acclimating the fish to his lower pH tank water.

The first time I bought fish online I was skeptical that they could survive the ordeal, and rather than go along with the traditional acclimation method I did some research and came up with a game plan based on water parameters that I figured would minimize the stress on the fish. So far it has worked well.


Dan

[Filip]

If the pH in the tank is much lower than in the bag, as in Filip's case, slow acclimation is better. Otherwise plop-n-drop is better. Here is why I think this way:

During shipping two things happen. The fish are excreting ammonia, and their respiration adds CO2 to the water, which lowers the pH in the bag. The lowered pH leaves the ammonia in its less toxic form.

When you open the bag, CO2 begins to leave solution, causing the pH to rise. The rise in pH changes the ammonium to toxic free ammonia. In these conditions, during a slow drip acclimation the pH and therefore the ammonia toxicity is increasing both from the off-gassing of CO2 and from the addition of more alkaline water by the drip. The fish are stewing in toxic ammonia, and the longer the drip the more ammonia burn.

Here is an old thread on this topic. See especially posts #14 and #15:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?73468-Acclimating-LFS-Discus

In Filip's case, because he uses CO2 injection, he will be adding water to the bag that keeps the pH from rising in the bag, while acclimating the fish to his lower pH tank water.

The first time I bought fish online I was skeptical that they could survive the ordeal, and rather than go along with the traditional acclimation method I did some research and came up with a game plan based on water parameters that I figured would minimize the stress on the fish. So far it has worked well.


Dan




Long ago ive also read the same stuff on amonia toxicity and ph relations and the belief that fish is better to be introduced instantly in our tanks. It sounded reasonable to me.
From my past experience with co2 pumped tanks , i strongly reccomend not just slow aclimatization of newly introduced fish but even shutting off the co2 injection at least 10 hours prior putting the new fish in it. Many species that i introduced in co2 tanks show no tolerance to this kind of instant change, many of them end up dead .

Now i run a non co2 tank for this last 5 months with my last bought batch of discus. i also introduced them in my non co2 tank with slow aclimatization , drip by drip method and they didnt seemed to be bothered by ammonia spike in any way .
One important note is that i bought them from my local LFS and they have only been transported in a 2 gallon can for 30 min. So i guess that was not enough time for co2 and ammonia to build up in the transportation water .
What Dan adviced might be usefull for fish that are transported for a longer period of time - couple of days or so .