240 Planted Discus Community

[nofearengineer]

I am in the process of achieving my dream tank. I have wanted a discus tank for 25 years, and I am finally going to make it happen.

I think properly done, a journal of any build should begin long before the actual "build". Hence I am starting this tank journal during the planning stages. Hopefully, it will help me later remember my thought process behind both good (and bad) decisions.

It will house 8-10 (who am I kidding...10) discus.
Other prospective tank mates will be Rummynose Tetras, Cardinal Tetras, Sterbai Corydoras, Bristlenose Ancistrus, Otocinclus sp.. I am also intrigued about Clown Loaches and Geophagus, seeing many of this forum's members have them, and apparently doing very well. For now, I think I will stick to only one species I haven't kept before...discus. If I do end up adding any other previously unkept species, I will probably keep them separately for a while (regardless of QT) just to learn their behaviors first.

I hope to have some wild "looking" discus. I love Heckels especially. There's just something about that single bold vertical stripe that is so unique among fish.

I am going to have a white sand substrate...probably pool filter sand. For hardscape, I am looking for a single driftwood "arch", with upturned "spiky" branches...sort of a "crown of thorns" look. Some select rockwork...but not too much.

I plan on "classic" low-to-medium light plants. I grow the hell out of almost any high-difficulty plants in my Dutch aquariums, so I sometimes get a kick out of just enjoying watching these less demanding plants thrive with good light, good fertilization and pressurized CO2.

Planned planting:
Echinodorus bleheri
Echinodorus tenellus
Cryptocoryne wendti
Barclaya longifolia
Aponogeton ulvaceous
Anubius sp.
Microsorum sp.

Given the obligatory frequent, large water changes I plan for the sake of the fish, doing the EI (Estimative Index) method of fertilzation is a no-brainer. I will have to wait and see what the nitrate situation is like. Most EI fert regimens dose KNO3, but since I like lots of fish in my planted tanks, I often use K2SO4 in lieu of KNO3, letting the fish metabolic products provide a steady 10-20 ppm of nitrates. My hunch is that I will want to keep nitrates around 10 ppm in a discus tank. Not necessarily for the health of the discus, but simply because an algae outbreak in a tank this size could be a real pain in the vent. Anyway, I am confident I can control it with water changes and diligence.

I did a little spreadsheet to figure out how much water I should change. If I change 20% (60 gallons) per day, I should stabilize at a metabolic waste level of no more than 4 days unchanged. So basically, if the discus can be happy in water they've been in for 96 hours with no water changes, then changing 20% per day should achieve the same long term result. I think it's a good starting point, and I'll discover if it works. Realistically, if it works, I can probably use discus tank water to change out my other tanks (but not the other way around!), and still have plenty of surplus to pour on my parched summer lawn.

I have ordered and purchased a 240 gallon 'tall' (72 x 24 x 31) tank from Glass Cages. I mainly did this on the basis of good reviews, available options, and that they are within driving distance from me. I put a lot of stock in being able to see something before it is just dropped off at my door by USPS. I also ordered an unmodified 65 gallon acrylic aquarium from them to use as the sump. The sump is going to take a LOT of research for me. I have never used one with such a high performance requirement; i.e. only for convenience previously.

The tank has Starphire (low-iron) glass on the front and sides. It is drilled in back for a Synergy - 20" Ghost overflow (already purchased). The overflow is rated for 2500 gph, which is certainly excessive for a discus tank. But you only get to drill a hole once, so I figured on the off chance I should ever want to turn this tank into a reef...it would be cheap insurance.

I am going to be running a bean animal type overflow. One reason is for the silent, safe operation. The other reason is that it will help prevent CO2 off-gassing. As a high-tech planted guy, I am not worried about maintaining high O2 levels in this tank. All of my planted tanks "pearl" constantly due to O2 saturation.

Which brings me to lighting. I am a huge proponent of LED lighting. I use it exclusively on my planted tanks, and get fantastic results. I changed my last fluorescent tube a couple of years ago. Given the width (24") and depth (31") of this tank, I am thinking I will need THREE 72" led strips (almost certainly by BuildMyLed) just to achieve medium light at the substrate. If I can get away with two, I will. Gotta do some research. Eliminating one of those fixtures would save enough money for 2-3 5" discus. Still, being new to discus, and not knowing exactly how much light they will be comfortable with, I'd rather have it a little too bright and be able to dim it down.

I ordered the stand and canopy in birch, rather than oak, because I am going to be painting it white, to match most of my living room furniture. It was also for this reason that I selected clear silicone instead of black. I am never, ever going to medicate this tank, and I don't anticipate any algae problems behind the silicone, so it should stay nice and clean.

My local water comes out of the tap at about a pH of 7.4, KH is 6, GH is 17. With 30 ppm of CO2, I wind up with a pH of about 6.4. Great for plants, and I'm hoping discus will like it too. I own a 75 gpd RO system that I bought for sensitive plants, but mothballed it when I found out it simply wasn't needed. If I ever wanted to try breeding (the discus, not me), my kH is low enough it would be a good start. My utility uses Chloramine, so I use Seachem Prime liberally.

Anyway, that's all for now. It's going to be a very long process, and I'm going to have to kill a lot of time waiting for my tank to be built, waiting another 30 days to fill it with water, painting my stand, etc. but at least it gives me more time to dream and plan.

I appreciate any constructive criticisms, suggestions, thoughts or concerns. I'm a technically-minded, results over feelz kind of guy, so please speak your mind. Thank you in advance for all the help.

[Giulliano]

Hi, Nofear...
I also have a planted tank.
I love that!
Good luck to you in your project!
Hugs.

[nofearengineer]

Thanks, Giulliano. Do you have a tank journal or any pics? I'm certainly looking for inspiration.

[nofearengineer]

It didn't take long for me to make a mistake....sort of.

I found a piece of driftwood for sale that is completely EPIC. A big honking piece of red cedar. Now I know there is a lot of information out there about cedar being toxic, but this piece is probably a hundred years old, given the rounded edges. It's been dead plenty of time for any cedrol-containing sap to be gone.

94357

Given that this piece is 80 x 18 x 34 (weighs 87 lbs), a couple of the protrusions would have to be trimmed to fit in a 72 x 24 x 31 inch tank. As extra insurance against toxicity, and before any major butchering of this magnificent piece of wood needlessly, I'm going to test a small piece in a tank with an Ancistrus. My theory is, if a driftwood EATING fish is unaffected by it, then fish swimming in it will be fine. If it proves to be unsuitable for an aquarium, I'll still be able to use it in some other decorative way, or at least resell it.

Now to the mistake...my tank has eurobracing in it. Two braces to be precise. Which means I am going to have to cut this thing up and bolt it back together. It is going to be a challenge, but I think I can handle it. My plan is to figure out where to cut it with a chop saw, pre-drill perpendicular holes across the cut, and once it's in the tank, bolt it back together through the holes. Pre-drilling the holes should make sure the alignment is restored. All stainless steel hardware of course. I will cut very carefully, but any gaps should be able to be shaped with a file to look natural, or at least concealed with plants.

I can at least console myself with the knowledge that my aquarium builder told me I couldn't have ordered my aquarium without eurobracing, short of spending thousands and thousands more on it.

[nofearengineer]

A better photo, after pressure washing, with the piece in the orientation I plan for it.

94359

As you can see, the bit on the right will have to be removed, and a bit off of the top.

It will completely fill the tank, but given that there are a ton of holes and openings, I don't think it will look cramped at all.

[jmf3460]

that is an epic piece of driftwood.....please say that you're going biotope style with stained water and dim lighting??

[nofearengineer]

that is an epic piece of driftwood.....please say that you're going biotope style with stained water and dim lighting?? God, I knew someone was going to say that LOL. And truth be told, this is a piece that could carry an entire tank on its shoulders, so to speak. I'm definitely thinking about it. It's funny how serendipity can change your plans. We'll see what further inspirations hit me.

[nofearengineer]

Pleasant surprise.

My overflow was just dropped off by FedEx.
94360

20" Ghost Overflow by Synergy.

I'm glad I didn't try to make one myself, because I couldn't have done anywhere as nice a job as this. Some things are just worth paying for. The fit and finish is outstanding.

[rickztahone]

Pleasant surprise.

My overflow was just dropped off by FedEx.
94360

20" Ghost Overflow by Synergy.

I'm glad I didn't try to make one myself, because I couldn't have done anywhere as nice a job as this. Some things are just worth paying for. The fit and finish is outstanding.

yeah, those are super sweet. I also like the ones that are sold on ebay by a certain seller, marine something is the name. The reason I like that design is because he actually channels the teeth to make them slope which would reduce the noise of the weir even further. Either way, I think synergy makes the nicest looking one with good acrylic. I'm assuming you are going with Bean Animal?

[nofearengineer]

yeah, those are super sweet. I also like the ones that are sold on ebay by a certain seller, marine something is the name. The reason I like that design is because he actually channels the teeth to make them slope which would reduce the noise of the weir even further. Either way, I think synergy makes the nicest looking one with good acrylic. I'm assuming you are going with Bean Animal?

Intuition would say sloping the teeth would make it quieter...but Fluid Dynamics was my weakest subject in Engineering school (I'm an EE, not an ME). However, I think it really depends on flow rate. At a high rate, such as in a reef tank (what it was really designed for), the bottom of the teeth would be well below the surface of the water. In a discus tank, the flow is going to be lower, so they might be shallower....in which case it may well indeed make a little noise. Even if it does, I bet it's small. But we'll see, won't we! (can't wait!)

Yes, I am going to do a bean animal style. I have never had anything but one of those "over the back" type overflows, so this is really Cadillac for me. I'm truly enjoying this design process. I had kind of a "deer in the headlights" moment earlier today while driving around. I was thinking about all my choices so far (of course)...and it struck me that I might not be able to reach my ball union valve for the full siphon, since the tank is going to be against a wall, and I had the overflow holes drilled center back. Some quick number crunching and I could relax...thank God I am 6'5" and have long arms. The valve knob should be no more than 24 inches inboard of the end of the tank. It's those kind of snap decisions that can wreck you.

[Jbell]

Following. So far it's looking great can't wait to see more.

[Second Hand Pat]

I am going to offer you "interesting" advice on your driftwood. Cut it where it will still look natural when leaned or fitted back together in the tank but will allow you to move the pieces for easy vacuuming/cleaning/removing dead fish or other reasons in the tank. This means you will not screw it back together. There are simply times when you will need to get into the tank and need to move the wood. Trust me on this. Super nice piece of wood. :D
Pat

[nofearengineer]

I am going to offer you "interesting" advice on your driftwood. Cut it where it will still look natural when leaned or fitted back together in the tank but will allow you to move the pieces for easy vacuuming/cleaning/removing dead fish or other reasons in the tank. This means you will not screw it back together. There are simply times when you will need to get into the tank and need to move the wood. Trust me on this. Super nice piece of wood. :D
Pat
Thanks for the advice. However, I'm not sure of a good way to accomplish "modular" driftwood hehe. At least in a way that won't fall apart when I don't want it to. I'll know more when I get the piece actually in hand. You know the old saying "measure twice, cut once". Well, I'm going to measure 100 times.

[Jack L]

A better photo, after pressure washing, with the piece in the orientation I plan for it.

94359

As you can see, the bit on the right will have to be removed, and a bit off of the top.

It will completely fill the tank, but given that there are a ton of holes and openings, I don't think it will look cramped at all.

Is that more driftwood in the background?

[nofearengineer]

Is that more driftwood in the background? Piles and piles of it. I'd say where, but they're not a sponsor. PM me if you want to know the vendor.

[pastry]

I am going to offer you "interesting" advice on your driftwood. Cut it where it will still look natural when leaned or fitted back together in the tank but will allow you to move the pieces for easy vacuuming/cleaning/removing dead fish or other reasons in the tank. This means you will not screw it back together. There are simply times when you will need to get into the tank and need to move the wood. Trust me on this. Super nice piece of wood. :D
Pat
It's not often that Pat says, "nice wood" ;)

You're already off to a good start with that one. I've been trying for 6 years now with her?

[nofearengineer]

It's not often that Pat says, "nice wood" ;)

You're already off to a good start with that one. I've been trying for 6 years now with her?

A tough nut to crack, eh? :grin:

[nofearengineer]

Reading more and more of this forum has kind of got me thinking about the final goal: the discus.

Do I really want my first discus to be grown adults? Or do I want to experience raising some juvies first?

A few points:

1. I'm not going to hurry this build. I'm determined to get it right, or at least as close to perfect as any other aquarium project I have ever undertaken. So I can honestly say it would probably be early to mid-Summer at least before discus ever see the inside of the tank.

2. I could probably set up a 55-gallon in my kitchen as a grow-out tank, and get a lot of hands-on experience with them while I am building their future home. I am obviously going to need a good QT and hospital tank setup anyway, so maybe I'll just pick up a couple of 55's during the next Petco DPG sale. I have sponge filters coming out the wazoo already so there wouldn't be a lot more stuff to buy.

3. While raising juvies looks stressful(!), it also looks like FUN, and also very interesting. I'm a piscatorial junkie in general, so....I think I would probably take even more pride in my big 7-inch (ahem)....discus if I grew them out myself.

4. I work a lot from home (I do EE consulting), so I could be sitting at my CAD station (also in my kitchen) and have them always in view.

5. This would be a great opportunity to connect with the membership here in purchasing babies.

I'm sure I'll probably have a dream about this tonight...just another obsession.

[pastry]

Get 55 to raise some little guys... But buy a few adults for big tank... Problem solved ;)

[rickztahone]

Intuition would say sloping the teeth would make it quieter...but Fluid Dynamics was my weakest subject in Engineering school (I'm an EE, not an ME). However, I think it really depends on flow rate. At a high rate, such as in a reef tank (what it was really designed for), the bottom of the teeth would be well below the surface of the water. In a discus tank, the flow is going to be lower, so they might be shallower....in which case it may well indeed make a little noise. Even if it does, I bet it's small. But we'll see, won't we! (can't wait!)

Yes, I am going to do a bean animal style. I have never had anything but one of those "over the back" type overflows, so this is really Cadillac for me. I'm truly enjoying this design process. I had kind of a "deer in the headlights" moment earlier today while driving around. I was thinking about all my choices so far (of course)...and it struck me that I might not be able to reach my ball union valve for the full siphon, since the tank is going to be against a wall, and I had the overflow holes drilled center back. Some quick number crunching and I could relax...thank God I am 6'5" and have long arms. The valve knob should be no more than 24 inches inboard of the end of the tank. It's those kind of snap decisions that can wreck you.
Add a gate valve instead of a ball valve on the full siphon. Also, you can add the valve right above the sump, it doesn't have to be behind the tank necessarily. Remember, the full siphon line has to be ~1" submerged

[nofearengineer]

Add a gate valve instead of a ball valve on the full siphon. Also, you can add the valve right above the sump, it doesn't have to be behind the tank necessarily. Remember, the full siphon line has to be ~1" submerged

You're right, of course. A gate valve has a lot more fine tuning control.

About the valve location, I think I read something Bean Animal himself wrote about it that said it was better below the overflow for some reason, but I can't remember why. Maybe I'm mistaken. I'll try to find it.

[nofearengineer]

Get 55 to raise some little guys... But buy a few adults for big tank... Problem solved ;)

If I buy some little guys, by the time the tank is ready, they might be adults LOL.

[rickztahone]

You're right, of course. A gate valve has a lot more fine tuning control.

About the valve location, I think I read something Bean Animal himself wrote about it that said it was better below the overflow for some reason, but I can't remember why. Maybe I'm mistaken. I'll try to find it.

There is no other place to put the valve but under the overflow. In the bean thread many claim that having it lower allows for better tuning

[nofearengineer]

There is no other place to put the valve but under the overflow. In the bean thread many claim that having it lower allows for better tuning

I meant "right under the overflow" as opposed to "farther under the overflow".

[Jack L]

Reading more and more of this forum has kind of got me thinking about the final goal: the discus.

Do I really want my first discus to be grown adults? Or do I want to experience raising some juvies first?

A few points:

1. I'm not going to hurry this build. I'm determined to get it right, or at least as close to perfect as any other aquarium project I have ever undertaken. So I can honestly say it would probably be early to mid-Summer at least before discus ever see the inside of the tank.

2. I could probably set up a 55-gallon in my kitchen as a grow-out tank, and get a lot of hands-on experience with them while I am building their future home. I am obviously going to need a good QT and hospital tank setup anyway, so maybe I'll just pick up a couple of 55's during the next Petco DPG sale. I have sponge filters coming out the wazoo already so there wouldn't be a lot more stuff to buy.

3. While raising juvies looks stressful(!), it also looks like FUN, and also very interesting. I'm a piscatorial junkie in general, so....I think I would probably take even more pride in my big 7-inch (ahem)....discus if I grew them out myself.

4. I work a lot from home (I do EE consulting), so I could be sitting at my CAD station (also in my kitchen) and have them always in view.

5. This would be a great opportunity to connect with the membership here in purchasing babies.

I'm sure I'll probably have a dream about this tonight...just another obsession.

i like growing them from small, seeing them change is neat, especially for kids
but if you buy small you might get some culls, some things don't show until bigger

sponge - i've been happy with poret foam from swiss tropicals. it works better than anything else i've tried. IME experience expensive bioballs, matrix etc have shown NO difference.

i've raised juvies in main tank, but it would be easier in BB.

[Jack L]

Add a gate valve instead of a ball valve on the full siphon. Also, you can add the valve right above the sump, it doesn't have to be behind the tank necessarily. Remember, the full siphon line has to be ~1" submerged

i'd second the gate valve.
i used a ball valve, it works but it is not easy to fine tune.

[nofearengineer]

Glass Cages called this morning to let me know my tank is ready to pick up. They had quoted 3-1/2 to 4 weeks, but it only took them 2 weeks! That's great, but I had to scramble my plans for travel (I'm in Evansville, IN) and getting some more muscle over to my house. I'll be renting a trailer and picking it up Thursday.

So I took 30 minutes today and built a "stretcher" for carrying it into the house. At 450 lbs, it should be pretty doable for 4 strong guys. The stretcher should help a lot. I can't wait! I'm going to hit some fish stores in Nashville too while I'm at it. Anyone got any suggestions for any stores I should see?
95064

[nofearengineer]

Took off early this morning and drove to Dickson, TN to pick up my aquarium. Managed to get lost in the hills (my Magellan GPS is such a LIAR!!). But the people at Glass Cages were the best. While I was there, Joseph gave me a short tour of their fish breeding operations. Room after room of huge tanks full of angels and various other cichlids. Then he showed me their 900 gallon discus biotope. Sorry about no pictures, but it was enough to make my purchase see almost trivial!

Anyway, my good friends rallied and helped me get the 500lb tank into the house. WHEW!95131

Nofear is one happy Engineer! 95132

My driftwood will be home tomorrow morning. Anticipation...

[rickztahone]

Very nice tank. I like their approach to stand/canopy simplicity. Doesn't have to be overdone to look nice.

[nofearengineer]

I kinda like it too. The access panels are the pop out kind too...no hinges or anything. I'm going to paint it pure ultra white...eggshell finish. Clean.

[Jack L]

Sweet, will stay tuned to see how it comes along. Is it drilled?

Now go back and take pics of the 900 gallon discus tank! : )

[nofearengineer]

Sweet, will stay tuned to see how it comes along. Is it drilled?

Now go back and take pics of the 900 gallon discus tank! : )

The back is drilled for my ghost overflow.

I wanted to take some pics, but I wasn't sure if there was anything hey wouldn't want me showing the world...OSHA and all that jazz.

I picked up the driftwood early this morning. It was a pretty good coincidence that it came in the same day as my tank was ready. I got to use the rented U-haul trailer for both. I got a 6x12 trailer for a day for only 30 bucks. Felt like a great deal.
95193

This is the first time I've actually had everything in hand. Despite knowing the measurements, I was still sweating the sheer scale of the piece. It looks like it's going to work great. What amazes me is that while this piece is so tall and wide...but for the most part, it is only 12-15 inches front to back...fish will have plenty of room to beg at the front glass. ;)

The silicone was only put in on February 16, so I am not supposed to put water in it for 4 weeks. That should give me enough time to paint the stand, drill, section and boil the driftwood. I'm thinking about getting one of those 4-foot long metal stock tanks for watering livestock. I think once the wood is sectioned it will fit, and I can set the tank up on concrete blocks and make a fire underneath it. I figure when I'm done with it, I could even put a liner in it, and do a mini "pond" on my back patio just for fun.

This project is taking up all of my free time, and that's good.

[Phillydubs]

Loving this read.. Great stuff and nice tank! Care to share about how much that ran ya?

That is one monster bad a$s piece of dw!

[nofearengineer]

Loving this read.. Great stuff and nice tank! Care to share about how much that ran ya?

That is one monster bad a$s piece of dw!

Normally, I would be hesitant to comment on price on a public forum, as my admittedly extravagant spending habits have in the past been taken by some as an elitist thing. But on a discus forum I am probably safe from that!! Lots of big spenders around here HAHA!

The tank, stand, canopy, and 65 gallon acrylic sump (not shown) ran me $2650 (Starphire glass sure is expensive!), and the gas/mileage to go pick it up were probably another $150 The U-Haul trailer rental was $30. The pizza/bribe for the heavy lifting was $20 (I do cost estimates for a living, so I always count ALL expenses haha).

My Ghost overflow ran me $250.

My BML lighting I have coming ran me about $950...controllers, etc...the whole shebang.

My paint (Behr 2050 pure ultra white eggshell) and tools cost me another $75.

The driftwood was $600, and cost another $314 to ship via USF Holland.

So at this point, I'm in for about $4,175.

I'm not sure about pumps and plumbing yet. I'm going to budget say...another $1,000...I hear all the unions and valves I need are pretty pricey (especially the gate valves).

Another $1000 for heating. The reason this number is so high is because I am probably going to have to go Electrician on this project and run another dedicated circuit from my panelboard to the tank location. Good Lord, talk about chasing the rabbit down the hole, Alice... Plus, I plan on using a heater controller with multiple heaters. Not really sure how many 250-watt heaters it will take to keep an 82F tank in a 70 degree room yet. I have a question about heaters I'm going to post after this, so it doesn't get buried in my long-windedness.

I'm going to build another CO2 system especially for this tank. I have run CO2 tubing through my house to remote tanks, but it just doesn't seem right to skimp on this tank. Ball park $1,000 which includes a new dual-stage regulator, Griggs-style reactor, and another 20 lb. cylinder, as well as a pump to create a separate loop in and out of the sump (I don't want the CO2 reactor dependent on main tank loop flow rate. I want to be able to tune it perfectly.) I'm pretty thrilled with how well my other reg has performed...so I'm going to go with another Parker H3L metering valve and SMC VDW21 solenoid valve. Right now, I sure wish I had bought the other new Linde regulator the guy had for sale way back when.95196

Which brings me to livestock. At this point, I am just guesstimating $500 for plants (I already have some of them to transplant after suitable QT) and $2,000 for fish.

I'm sure I have forgotten something, but it's already reaching stratospheric levels of cost so maybe that's for the best haha.

Thanks for asking. As you can see I love talking about it.

[nofearengineer]

Question about submerged heaters in an acrylic sump...

Um, a dry sump would be extremely bad, right? Like melt the sump, burn the house down bad....

Any suggestions for making it fail-safe?

[Markv]

The first compartment in most sumps stays wet even with evaporation. The return pump is in a final chamber where water level will drop due to evap. Not sure what brand sump you have, but I typically put the heater in the first compartment that will stay wet. And it's good to have a float switch with autotopoff for the final compartment. www.autotopoff.com has good setups for that.

[farebox]

Nice, Nice, Nice....man that will be some tank when you done with it all! Please continue to keep all us posted on your progress. If I were a single man I would go for an set up like your's right in my living room, no other stuff but an couch to sit and stare at the tank. Also recommend autotopoff float switches, I just got one for my tank the other day and they have excellent customer service.

[Jack L]

Question about submerged heaters in an acrylic sump...

Um, a dry sump would be extremely bad, right? Like melt the sump, burn the house down bad....

Any suggestions for making it fail-safe?

don't have it touching the acrylic

[Jack L]

why only 250 watt heater?

[rickztahone]

why only 250 watt heater?

yeah, get larger heaters and keep them on controllers. As far as the touching acrylic part, don't let it touch the acrylic, lol. However, you can put them in horizontally in the first chamber. I have mine in the return section simply because I have about 12g of water in that section and it would take forever for that water to evaporate. I planned that section around the heaters, lol.

[nofearengineer]

Okay, thanks guys. My sump is nothing but a 65 gallon acrylic aquarium right now. It has no baffles or anything put in it yet. Looks like I need to think about the heaters too when designing it. Maybe I could even silicone in a piece of glass for the heaters to sit on. Anyway, boy are my shoulders tired from all that moving yesterday! And let me tell you one thing...that driftwood is a real shin buster haha.

[nofearengineer]

why only 250 watt heater?

I was thinking multiple heaters. I like to do that, because if one of three 250-watt heaters stick, the fish are fine. But if a single 750 watt heater sticks...you get the idea.

[Jack L]

For a non scientific point of reference, a 500 watt heater heater was unable to get my 160 gals of water over 91 and I was trying.

[Jack L]

Oh the room was between 72 and 80

[Jack L]

Okay, thanks guys. My sump is nothing but a 65 gallon acrylic aquarium right now. It has no baffles or anything put in it yet. Looks like I need to think about the heaters too when designing it. Maybe I could even silicone in a piece of glass for the heaters to sit on. Anyway, boy are my shoulders tired from all that moving yesterday! And let me tell you one thing...that driftwood is a real shin buster haha.

How much did driftwood weigh?

[nofearengineer]

For a non scientific point of reference, a 500 watt heater heater was unable to get my 160 gals of water over 91 and I was trying.


Oh the room was between 72 and 80

My plan is for 82-83F in a 70 degree room. Of course, the room might have to be a little warmer in the summer, as I imagine 240 gallons of warm water in the middle of the house might have a substantial thermal effect. In the Winter, it will probably just help keep things nice and cozy for my African Grey parrot in the same room.


How much did driftwood weigh?
It is 87 lbs stone cold dry. I'm going to have to be super careful working with it before the water gets added.

[nofearengineer]

Well...I may have hit a MAJOR problem. I was test fitting my Ghost overflow...and the weir piece started falling apart. I have contacted Synergy Reef and they said they'd ship me out a new one Monday morning.

Now here's the deal. I wish that were truly the problem.

It looks like Glass Cages drilled my overflow holes an inch too low. Holding up the template to the holes (sorry for the blurry photo), you can see the large discrepancy. 95277 The top of the template is supposed to be at the top of the tank. The openings on the weir are actually a little lower than that. It looks like there will be a visible waterline.

Glass Cages assured me they would use the Ghost overflow template...it even says so on my receipt from them. I called them to discuss this, but the main tank guy is off on Saturday. This is not going to be a happy weekend for me.

[nofearengineer]

If I end up having to build my own overflow anyway, just to fit the holes...I'm going to be a bit annoyed.

[nofearengineer]

I contacted Synergy Reef about them building a custom overflow 1" taller. That would solve the problem. I hope Glass Cages is amenable to picking up the bill on that. We'll see.

[rickztahone]

I contacted Synergy Reef about them building a custom overflow 1" taller. That would solve the problem. I hope Glass Cages is amenable to picking up the bill on that. We'll see.

I was going to suggest this. However, I've contacted Synergy about custom one off's and they do not do them as far as I am concerned. They bang them out standard as is and don't do custom work because it slows down their production. However, they may make a special exception considering your situation. Regardless, you should contact Glasscages and explain to them the problem.

Do you happen to have a pic? In my overflow setup, the water line rises a good 1/4-1/2" while the system is running. This is almost a full C2C setup, and yours being a smaller inner overflow box may actually get much higher than that. That is merely speculation, but it doesn't quite run at the top weir level as you may think.

Again, pics may help.

[nofearengineer]

I was going to suggest this. However, I've contacted Synergy about custom one off's and they do not do them as far as I am concerned. They bang them out standard as is and don't do custom work because it slows down their production. However, they may make a special exception considering your situation. Regardless, you should contact Glasscages and explain to them the problem.

Do you happen to have a pic? In my overflow setup, the water line rises a good 1/4-1/2" while the system is running. This is almost a full C2C setup, and yours being a smaller inner overflow box may actually get much higher than that. That is merely speculation, but it doesn't quite run at the top weir level as you may think.

Again, pics may help.

Synergy told me the same thing. I know Glass Cages has tried to contact them, so it seems they are trying to make this work. I love the tank, and I don't want to come off as bashing them. I've been in business a long time, and I know mistakes are made. Anyone can have great customer service when everything works out. It's when problems arise that you find out who the real customer service champions are.

As to the pics....9534095341

As you can see...the template is an inch below the top of the tank. Ironically, that part of the tank has no black frame or eurobracing, so that the weir can be all the way to the top.....can you say "oops"?

[Dis82]

Sounds like your handling it well. Goodluck finding a solution

[rickztahone]

You don't want the weir at the top for 2 reasons, 1) on start up, you run the risk of overfill, and 2, in case of an unlikely clog, you may run the water line way too high. Thx for the pics, but do you have one of the inner overflow box? Reason I ask is because the inner box is typically offset from the outer box and is a little higher. That means the weir is higher. So, if the rear box is 1" below the rim. That means the inner box may be 1/2-3/4" from the top which is perfect. You don't want that running 1/4" from the top edge.

[nofearengineer]

You don't want the weir at the top for 2 reasons, 1) on start up, you run the risk of overfill, and 2, in case of an unlikely clog, you may run the water line way too high. Thx for the pics, but do you have one of the inner overflow box? Reason I ask is because the inner box is typically offset from the outer box and is a little higher. That means the weir is higher. So, if the rear box is 1" below the rim. That means the inner box may be 1/2-3/4" from the top which is perfect. You don't want that running 1/4" from the top edge.

The template exactly matches the internal box. The top of the internal box is exactly where the top of the template is. Yes, the external box is lower.

I installed the internal box, and used all of the available slop in the drilled holes to raise it as high as I could. See pictures.
9535495355 As high as it will go, the top of the overflow is about 7/8" from the top of the glass. The holes in the weir are obviously below the top of the internal box. I don't know...Fluid Dynamics was my worst subject in Engineering School...maybe while flowing, there will be some sort of hydraulic dam effect in front of the weir and the water level will be higher?


If this is optimal, I just can't figure out why Synergy would clearly mark the template "top of the tank".

[rickztahone]

From the pics it does look like the water line will be lower. With mine, because it is not removable, the height of the water is just above it by 1/4-1/2" like I explained prior. However, with yours, I am not sure if the water line will be over the actual inner overflow box, or right around the teeth/slot mark. Obviously, if it is the latter and not the former, this would be a huge problem as far as the water line is concerned.

However, I believe that Synergy could simply make a removable weir that is taller than the current one you have. Either way, I don't believe you should have to pay for this, even though, I believe it was your driller's fault in setting the template too low. Not sure if synergy specifies how low under the top tank it needs to be set.

[nofearengineer]

Oh but Synergy does...here is their template...with pretty clear instructions.95358

Oh well...Glass Cages has agreed to make me a new tank. It still wastes another day of my time taking this one back and swapping it out, not to mention my gas, wear and tear on my vehicle, and having to trouble my friends (who have already moved this tank) for moving this tank back onto the trailer, as well as moving the replacement back into the house. I think to be nice to them, I'm going to go buy some glass moving suction cups. I hear Harbor Freight has some that are actually quite good, that are rated for 125 lbs each and only cost $7.49 each. I'll have to test them extensively before I trust them though. They get good reviews.

Add another month delay.

I'm going to be grumpy about it for a while I guess...but at least it's going to be right.

Oh, by the way...Synergy told both me and Glass Cages "no" on building anything custom.

[Phillydubs]

Man sorry to hear this... just dod some catch up on this thread..

This is a bummer...

Thanks for being so open about all the other info and your spend$ I didn't expect you to get so detailed but it was super cool how you did it so thanks!

[rickztahone]

Did you match up the template to where they actually drilled it?

WRT Synergy, told you, they never do custom stuff. I know a few vendors that do, one of which I believe is even better than Synergy or Reef Saavy which supposedly is the originator of this design. I wont say it publicly, but if you want the info, shoot me a pm.

[nofearengineer]

Man sorry to hear this... just dod some catch up on this thread..

This is a bummer...

Thanks for being so open about all the other info and your spend$ I didn't expect you to get so detailed but it was super cool how you did it so thanks!


Thanks for commiserating with me haha.

I think you're going to find I am a details man. I write specifications and make construction drawings for a living, so it comes with the territory!

[nofearengineer]

Did you match up the template to where they actually drilled it?

WRT Synergy, told you, they never do custom stuff. I know a few vendors that do, one of which I believe is even better than Synergy or Reef Saavy which supposedly is the originator of this design. I wont say it publicly, but if you want the info, shoot me a pm.

Yeah...there's a picture earlier in this thread that shows that. Where the template says "align to inside top of tank" or some such...they aligned to an inch below the top. The GC guy was telling me that's how Synergy tells them to drill it...I'm skeptical LOL. Oh well, at least they are making me a new tank, and I have plenty to do until it's ready. Painting the stand, working on the sump and plumbing...yada, yada, yada. Like Gloria Gaynor said...I will survive.

On a good note, I looked into those suction cup glass handles at Harbor Freight. These things are nuts strong! I can't believe they only cost $7.49 each. This time, since I only have to move a tank, I can use the bed of my truck, with no trailer, and I can back up a lot closer to my front door. Trying to find the silver lining. Rationalization...sometimes it's the only thing that keeps you sane haha.

[nofearengineer]

As an aside...while my Synergy overflow is pretty awesome, when I was test-fitting it, the weir started to come apart. The horizontal part started to come un-fused with the vertical part. I have "welded" acrylic a few times and have seen a few bad joints (my own hah). I contacted Synergy and they had a new weir in my fat hands within 72 hours. Major Kudos to Synergy.

Rick, this gives me a chance to try out the "sloped" weir openings you mentioned. I'll get some methylene chloride and re-weld the broken weir. I'll take a file and massage the openings to slope them. Then we'll be able to see if there's a significant difference between the two.

[rickztahone]

As an aside...while my Synergy overflow is pretty awesome, when I was test-fitting it, the weir started to come apart. The horizontal part started to come un-fused with the vertical part. I have "welded" acrylic a few times and have seen a few bad joints (my own hah). I contacted Synergy and they had a new weir in my fat hands within 72 hours. Major Kudos to Synergy.

Rick, this gives me a chance to try out the "sloped" weir openings you mentioned. I'll get some methylene chloride and re-weld the broken weir. I'll take a file and massage the openings to slope them. Then we'll be able to see if there's a significant difference between the two.

Be careful when filing. Not sure how you are planning to do it, but if you do not leave a good edge to bond to, it may not weld well. Luckily, the inner overflow isn't under much pressure so it may not matter much. The quality of these overflows have seemed to be very well controlled and I am surprised you had this problem but am happy to hear that they took care of you so quick. Speaks well for their company.

[nofearengineer]

Got a little painting done today. Canopy and doors are done. 95453

I have to get some more muscle back over t get this thing off the stand and ready to go back to GC.

At that point, I'll get the stand up off the floor and finish it.

Going to paint the insides white and clear coat it. I'm going to have to be very careful with my clear coat selection as I have an African Grey parrot I'm rather fond of.

[Jack L]

White, interesting choice, don't see that often

[nofearengineer]

White, interesting choice, don't see that often

All of my book shelves and media center are the same eggshell white. We'll see how it turns out.

[nofearengineer]

I'm thinking a few potted plants with leaves hanging down just over the edges might look nice.

[rickztahone]

Personally, I love white tanks. I did something different with my current tank, but kind of wish I went white. On my upcoming build, I am going all white again, it just seems so much cleaner IMHO. YMMV

[nofearengineer]

Yeah, I like white myself. I wish I could have gotten my overflow in white...but Synergy told me I'd have to buy a whole production run of 13 units.......um......no hehe.

[nofearengineer]

Ordered four Eheim Jager Tru Temp 150W heaters. For some strange reason, Big Al's had that wattage on sale, and none of the other wattages. It was fate. Now I have heaters for bare-bottom 55 QT and hospital tanks that will be interchangeable with the 240. I also ordered one of those STC-1000 temperature relays off of ebay, as well as a Fusion 700 air pump and all the fittings. Building the arsenal.

[nofearengineer]

Made the trip back to Dickson, TN yesterday to return and replace my tank. GAWD, that thing is a beast to move. But thankfully, my friends came through, and the long day was at least a complete success. I will say that the silicone on the new tank is damned near ADA-level flawless on the vertical seams. Better than the first one. I still have a couple weeks before I can get this one wet. And yes, the holes are in the right location.

The most stressful part was getting a coat of polyurethane on the top of the stand right after putting the old tank into my truck, and praying it would be dry enough by the time I got home. Since the stand has vertical trim around the bottom of the tank, I wanted to make sure that any maintenance drips of water that ended up down there would evaporate before they soaked into the wood. Seemed to work fine. I did have to move my African Grey parrot into my bedroom and leave the windows open for ventilation while I was gone though...TOUGH for a suspicious person like me to do!

I got it home and got a bit of painting done on the stand and canopy. I'm definitely going to spend the better part of a week getting the rest of it done....the inside is getting painted white as well, with polyurethane to waterproof.

Rick...how do I even begin to say this.....CURSE YOU! LOLOLOL

I actually called somewhere today and got put on a waiting list for a storage space for my boat so I can keep the Impala! haha

The storage space is covered, with 24-hr access so I can use it just like if it was in my garage. It doesn't have power for battery tending, so I'll probably have to set up a small solar panel on the deck to trickle charge my trolling batteries. Funny how these projects sort of snowball.

Speaking of snowballs, and also of cursing Rick...you auto water change system has me planning something crazy. I think once I get my boat stored, and my Impala moved over, I'm going to get one of those 275 gallon totes, and set up an auto system to pump my water change water into my garage. I can then use it on my lawn. I'm going to see about setting up a really powerful PLC I have to run it (and potentially EVERYTHING in the future).

It's all your fault, Rick. haha

[rickztahone]

Yay, the impala stays! Did you see the 65 I posted in the camera journey thread?

[nofearengineer]

Yay, the impala stays! Did you see the 65 I posted in the camera journey thread?

Yeah! I just checked it out. I would have liked to see more, but it still looked good. I get the feeling my car spent a little time in SoCal as well, as a few of the small body parts I have take off had a little Mexican flavor in the paint job; fancy pinstriping lines. I'm going to go the muscle car direction, but it's interesting to think of all the people that might have driven it in the past 50 years. I'll post some pictures when I make some progress and it looks a little less basket-casey.

[rickztahone]

Yeah! I just checked it out. I would have liked to see more, but it still looked good. I get the feeling my car spent a little time in SoCal as well, as a few of the small body parts I have take off had a little Mexican flavor in the paint job; fancy pinstriping lines. I'm going to go the muscle car direction, but it's interesting to think of all the people that might have driven it in the past 50 years. I'll post some pictures when I make some progress and it looks a little less basket-casey.

That is how our 65 looked not so long ago, lol. I will do the car justice and when it is done I will take it out for a photo shoot. :)

[nofearengineer]

Going to try designing my tank plumbing today. I think I'm going to go with 1-1/2 inch pipe, as my overflow is rated for 2500 gph. If I ever use the tank for something different, I'd hate to have to replace something built smaller right now. My plan is for something like 1200 gph right now. That should be 5 times the tank volume per hour, as I know discus don't particularly like a lot of current. MY plan is to create two spraybars at the tank rear, blowing straight down. This should help to blow any detritus to the front of the tank, making it easier to siphon out.

Any thoughts on my flow rate?

I'd also appreciate any links to bean animal design, as far as showing all the fittings and such. I need to make a good list before I hit the Home Depot.

[rickztahone]

Going to try designing my tank plumbing today. I think I'm going to go with 1-1/2 inch pipe, as my overflow is rated for 2500 gph. If I ever use the tank for something different, I'd hate to have to replace something built smaller right now. My plan is for something like 1200 gph right now. That should be 5 times the tank volume per hour, as I know discus don't particularly like a lot of current. MY plan is to create two spraybars at the tank rear, blowing straight down. This should help to blow any detritus to the front of the tank, making it easier to siphon out.

Any thoughts on my flow rate?

I'd also appreciate any links to bean animal design, as far as showing all the fittings and such. I need to make a good list before I hit the Home Depot.

Man, I can flood you with a slew of links for Bean Animal system, but truthfully, it isn't that difficult. If you pm me your personal email in the next hour, I can send you a word document that I made and printed out to help me with the process. Let me know.

[nofearengineer]

Man, I can flood you with a slew of links for Bean Animal system, but truthfully, it isn't that difficult. If you pm me your personal email in the next hour, I can send you a word document that I made and printed out to help me with the process. Let me know.

The overflow part I understand 100% already. It was just all of the fittings for the plumbing itself. I'm a sparky, not a leaky engineer, remember? :p

Anyway...I did a TON of research today...and I found all the parts I need to get this thing plumbed, and even "future proof" it, if that is possible. Still...rather than just order everything tonight, I decided to sleep on it an extra day or two, just in case I got some epiphany or remembered something I had forgotten.

The hardest part, imho, has been trying to leave in places to add on an auto-water changing system, for example. I HATE getting down the road, and realizing I screwed the pooch on something EASY.

[nofearengineer]

I took this video just to show what has been keeping me sane during the past few weeks, what with all the delays and INSANE amount of work rolling in. That's actually a good thing, as this tank is expensive as hell, but it sure doesn't leave much time for anything else! It is definitely my favorite planted tank I've ever had.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL0c7YMmQYg&nohtml5=False

[Akili]

Very Nice Planted Tank and Thanks for sharing the video.

[jmf3460]

BEAUTIFUL PLANTED TANK!!! I really like the jungle style aquascape

[nofearengineer]

Thanks! I have over 100 fish in that 75 gallon, and not a speck of algae.

[Akili]

Thanks! I have over 100 fish in that 75 gallon, and not a speck of algae.Amazing What keeps the algae away?

[nofearengineer]

Amazing What keeps the algae away?

A combination of things.

I run 40-45 ppm of CO2, combined with non-limited ferts (KH2PO4, KH2SO4, and CSM+B), and plenty of nitrates from fish poop (obviously).

I also have a healthy gang of Otocinclus, Siamese Algae Eaters (which also destroy my Myaca fluvialitis and Rotala wallichi :mad: ), as well as a pair of Albino Bristlenose Plecos.

I do twice weekly 50% water changes.

I also, as you can see, have a ton of plant biomass. There's just nowhere left for algae to grow.

I haven't even hit the wall as far as lighting. I am running 150 PAR at the substrate...very high light. I'm getting kind of cocky actually haha.

[Kyla]

i love the red plants. so nice to see happy livebearers in a beautiful tank too, they are often overlooked.

[nofearengineer]

i love the red plants. so nice to see happy livebearers in a beautiful tank too, they are often overlooked.

Thanks. I just happen to love good sunburst platies....but frankly, they need to stop breeding haha. I'm going to have to do something soon. There is so much plant cover, the babies are surviving the hungry tetras at a much higher rate than expected.

[nofearengineer]

Looks like my estimate for plumbing might have actually been a tiny bit low. My shopping cart at Bulk Reef Supply is just killing me haha. I'm going to make a sketchup model of my tank first, just to make sure everything will fit properly.

For some reason, Schedule 80 pipe is less expensive than the 40...go figure. I think the gray pipe will look better against both the white stand and the black back of the tank. And the fittings will match of course.

As far as pumps, I think I'm going to go with the EcoTech Vectra L1.
96550

It's really a reefer's dream. DC, so PWM speed control. External or Internal. "Feeding" mode built in with the push of a button. 3600 GPH on tap should I ever want it. And graveyard quiet. It even has an 18+ hour battery backup available (not sure if I want to go that route or put in a genset at my house yet). 3600 GPH sounds like a lot, but in a 240 gallon tank, and factoring in head losses, I think it is reasonable to expect 10x tank turnover per hour as a starting point. I'd rather tune the turnover down to 5-6x digitally than with mechanical ball valves.

The only "weird" thing about the pump is the connectors are ABS instead of PVC so I have to use some special glue to make the transition.

[rickztahone]

Those are really nice pumps. Personally, I would go with another DC pump and buy two with the price of this one but that's just me. Either way, not trying to knock your goal or your parts, just saying what I would if I were in the same situation.

[nofearengineer]

Those are really nice pumps. Personally, I would go with another DC pump and buy two with the price of this one but that's just me. Either way, not trying to knock your goal or your parts, just saying what I would if I were in the same situation.

Rick, I've been having trouble finding other DC pumps that don't get ripped to pieces for being loud, weak, fragile, etc. Any suggestions? I'm more than open to a 2-pump redundant solution.

[rubinsteinnyc]

... 900 gallon discus biotope. Sorry about no pictures...


thats just cruel

[nofearengineer]

thats just cruel
Hahaha! Right?

[nofearengineer]

Rick, I've been having trouble finding other DC pumps that don't get ripped to pieces for being loud, weak, fragile, etc. Any suggestions? I'm more than open to a 2-pump redundant solution.

I'm really glad you brought this up, Rick. I took a breath, and refound my patience. I did a lot more searching, and like you said I found 2 pumps that the total was exactly the same as the single EcoTech.

I ordered a Deepwater BCL10 (2650 gph) for my return pump and a BCL5 (1400 gph) for my CO2 reactor loop pump. The small pump is big enough to serve as a makeshift return pump in the event of a main pump breakdown while waiting for a replacement.

The Deepwater pumps seem to be getting pretty good reviews, and as an added bonus, they are APEX compatible. Not that I am going to use an APEX, but the DIY info is out there for tying into APEX systems that will enable me to eventually PLC control everything.

[nofearengineer]

Played around learning Sketchup today. It obviously still needs a lot of work, but it was sort of fun (between fits of frustration) designing all the piping. I'm going to have to get creative with my sump, as it just does not lend itself to a "straight shot" from one end to the other.96581

[rickztahone]

I'm really glad you brought this up, Rick. I took a breath, and refound my patience. I did a lot more searching, and like you said I found 2 pumps that the total was exactly the same as the single EcoTech.

I ordered a Deepwater BCL10 (2650 gph) for my return pump and a BCL5 (1400 gph) for my CO2 reactor loop pump. The small pump is big enough to serve as a makeshift return pump in the event of a main pump breakdown while waiting for a replacement.

The Deepwater pumps seem to be getting pretty good reviews, and as an added bonus, they are APEX compatible. Not that I am going to use an APEX, but the DIY info is out there for tying into APEX systems that will enable me to eventually PLC control everything.

Sry, I didn't see this till now! I was busy this whole weekend moving stuff around the house and didn't jump on once. That looks like a great pump and the fact that you are getting 2 is even better. I saw it available through MD which is great, I would buy through them just in case. They have great warranty service and if one happens to fail and you have two, you can use the spare while you sort out what happens with the first. I honestly had not heard of this one. I know many reefers using Jabao pumps with great success. Personally, I was going to buy the waveline pumps as they have a really good track record:
http://www.rlss.ca/#!dc-pump/vstc3=dc12000

BRS carries them as well as well as premium aquatics where I was going to get my DC4000 but a sweet deal popped up with a Jabao 12,000 that I couldn't pass up.

[rickztahone]

Played around learning Sketchup today. It obviously still needs a lot of work, but it was sort of fun (between fits of frustration) designing all the piping. I'm going to have to get creative with my sump, as it just does not lend itself to a "straight shot" from one end to the other.96581

Why are you dropping in your main siphon line in the middle of the tank? If the setup goes from right to left (from diagram) you would want it dropping in all the way to the right. Also, why not have your socks in the first section?

I wish I could do something like this with sketchup. I never got the hang of it.

[nofearengineer]

I have waited to modify the sump until last because i knew i was going to have trouble with the siphon location.

[rickztahone]

I have waited to modify the sump until last because i knew i was going to have trouble with the siphon location.

It isn't that difficult. You want your siphon line to come in at the furthest right position. My suggestion is as follows:

make a very small section (3x3" or 4x4") and have the siphon feed there. Remember, the siphon needs a steady height and it needs to be ~1" submerged to work properly.
Then, have some form of filtration media in the overflow section to the side of it or in front of it.

Are you going with a fuge? Not sure what that middle section is for. I am assuming you are making that last section large to account for evaporation?

[nofearengineer]

Please don't worry about the sump. It is a placeholder.

[nofearengineer]

Rick, that sump was a generic sump model I pulled in, and merely resized to 65 gallons, so I could take a stab at putting my siphon line in. I don't want to angle my siphon out to the right any more than it already is, as that may affect its efficiency.

Rather, I think I am going to dump it right where it is, and rearrange the baffles such that the flow goes to the right, then over the socks at the far right (where I have good access to change them from the door on the end of the stand), then back across the front, and over to the pump on the left.

I'll post some more renderings when I get it sorted out.

My plumbing and pumps should get here by Thursday, so I hope to have it all plumbed by the end of next week. We'll see if I can find time to do it. Luckily, my business is hopping...but it sure eats into my aquarium time!

One thing I forgot to mention, that affects my sump design (and therefore the plumbing as well)...because of where this tank is going, and the dimensions of the sump, the only way I will be able to ever get it in and out of the stand for repair/modifications is the right end where it is now. That might help explain a few questions about why I do some of the weird things I do here.

[Debow]

Quick question how do you keep your drain submerged with out the extra water just flowing into the sump? I still do not understand aquarium overflow stand pipes.

[rickztahone]

Quick question how do you keep your drain submerged with out the extra water just flowing into the sump? I still do not understand aquarium overflow stand pipes.

I am not sure I understand the question Devon. Mind rephrasing it?

[Debow]

I have a single stand pipe for my drain, the other drain is hooked up to the fx6. The stand pipe for the sump is higher than the pipe for the fx6 so it will suck not suck air. my question is I get the sucking/rushing water sound on my stand pipe going to the sump, how do you have the water level higher than the drain pipe so it does not allow air to be sucked in creating that typical sound of sucking/rushing water?

[nofearengineer]

Devon, I'm not sure I understand the question, but here is a video that may allow you to self-diagnose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWMzmiU3wDY

[rickztahone]

I have a single stand pipe for my drain, the other drain is hooked up to the fx6. The stand pipe for the sump is higher than the pipe for the fx6 so it will suck not suck air. my question is I get the sucking/rushing water sound on my stand pipe going to the sump, how do you have the water level higher than the drain pipe so it does not allow air to be sucked in creating that typical sound of sucking/rushing water?

Do you have a valve on your siphon line?

[Debow]

Yes I do

[Debow]

In the video the full siphon pipe on far right is fully submerged not allowing any air to get sucked in. This is what I cant seam to do. Then you have the emergency pipe which no water flows down then you have the far left pipe doing what? I am trying to understand how to make a overflow like this but I don't have enough holds in the tank to accommodate 3 stand pipes. This is what my siphon pipe looks like, just bigger. the water flows over the top of the pvc collar and through holes drilled in the pipe. Hofer gurgle buster is what I made.
96653

[nofearengineer]

In the video the full siphon pipe on far right is fully submerged not allowing any air to get sucked in. This is what I cant seam to do. Then you have the emergency pipe which no water flows down then you have the far left pipe doing what? I am trying to understand how to make a overflow like this but I don't have enough holds in the tank to accommodate 3 stand pipes. This is what my siphon pipe looks like, just bigger. the water flows over the top of the pvc collar and through holes drilled in the pipe. Hofer gurgle buster is what I made.
96653
The bean animal is truly a wonderful thing. The first pipe...the full siphon...runs completely silent because it has no air in it. However, it can only flow at one rate. Obviously, this would be unstable if it were the only overflow pipe in the box. The water would either overflow, or the siphon would continuously break, reestablish, break, on and on, etc. A real pain in the neck.

So the extra overflow pipe is there such that you can set flow just a little bit more than the full siphon can flow, and the extra pipe can handle it. The extra pipe can flow about 1/4 of its cross section full of water almost completely silently, because the water will stick to the walls of the pipe. This gives you much more range in your ability to tune your gate valve. You don't have to hit the flow number perfectly...just within the range of a full siphon plus the small amount for the extra pipe.

I hope that explains things.

[Debow]

So to do a bean animal you have at least 2 pipes one to handle the extra water the main siphon doesn't. I only have one pipe so this makes it not functional unless I boot my fx6 and add another drain that is slightly higher than your main siphon.

[rickztahone]

So to do a bean animal you have at least 2 pipes one to handle the extra water the main siphon doesn't. I only have one pipe so this makes it not functional unless I boot my fx6 and add another drain that is slightly higher than your main siphon.

Correct. Having one standpipe alone would have me super paranoid. If you have an FX6, why not run it via its own strainer and return and save the other overflow BH for a modified herbie? You wouldn't have an emergency, but your open channel pipe would serve as a full siphon in case of some kind of obstruction. As it stands now, you would flood if your full siphon clogs for whatever reason.

[nofearengineer]

Okay...I think I have a sump design I can live with. Keep in mind there will be another bulkhead and strainer in front of the one shown, going to a smaller pump for my CO2 reactor and manifold for future stuff (Purigen reactor possibly, Automatic water change? who knows?)
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I hid the front panel for clarity.

The primary siphon is on the right. I would have preferred to not have a big 45-degree section, but thanks to the infinite stupidity of the people who originally designed my house (door/window locations, etc.), it just needs to be. I could have put my overflow on the right end of the tank, but that would have been a hobgoblin to my sense of symmetry and order. Oh well, no huge deal..it will just take a little bit longer to establish a full siphon when turned on.

The flow goes down in back, and over into my water heater chamber. Then through two filter media chambers. Probably going to go with Poret foam and bags of ceramic rings/balls. Then through two filter socks. I was careful to size their holder to accommodate standard 4"(diam) x 8"(L) socks. I just got the filter socks within my door opening, so changing them will be easier.

Oh, one thing. I did see I am going to need to put my unions inside the stand so I can potentially remove a standpipe should the need to remove the sump arise. Gotta love CAD.

Thoughts? See any red flag items? I actually sat in the Home Depot parking lot today and decided not to buy all of this stuff until I got other opinions. I'm in Enginerd Design Creep Heaven right now haha.

[rickztahone]

Wouldn't it be better to get those socks closer to the siphon line? You can do the socks in the first over section way off to the right and have water cleaned there first, then under/overs to your other media. This way your media will not get as gunked up.

I personally think you could get rid of the middle section over/under baffles and have one larger one as well. Lastly, extend your open channel line to be under the water line, trust me. It is annoying to hear the small trickle of water that goes through it and it splashes about. Submerge it and never hear it :). However, only the full siphon HAS to be submerged, but the other two can be submerged as well. You really don't want the emergency to be submerged, but you can if you wanted to.

[nofearengineer]

Wouldn't it be better to get those socks closer to the siphon line? You can do the socks in the first over section way off to the right and have water cleaned there first, then under/overs to your other media. This way your media will not get as gunked up. I've been debating this topic with several people today. I've even consulted with someone who is a professional in the water treatment industry, but he hasn't responded yet. I definitely made a mistake in the media order, for sure. This may change (doesn't it always? LOL), but I'm thinking it should be in this order: coarse mech, fine mech, bio. So I am going to move the socks in the middle. So there would be a section for the heaters, then one for Poret foam, then filter socks, then ceramic rings. It's where I am right now. Like I said, it's all under advisement. ;)


I personally think you could get rid of the middle section over/under baffles and have one larger one as well. Lastly, extend your open channel line to be under the water line, trust me. It is annoying to hear the small trickle of water that goes through it and it splashes about. Submerge it and never hear it :). However, only the full siphon HAS to be submerged, but the other two can be submerged as well. You really don't want the emergency to be submerged, but you can if you wanted to.

I did realize after I made this that my open standpipe does need to come down below the water surface. I will probably keep the emergency drain above, as I hope the noise would help alert me to something being amiss. I'm going to get back on the computer and make some more tweaks and then post some more renderings. Having fun working through something I've never done before.

[rickztahone]

I've been debating this topic with several people today. I've even consulted with someone who is a professional in the water treatment industry, but he hasn't responded yet. I definitely made a mistake in the media order, for sure. This may change (doesn't it always? LOL), but I'm thinking it should be in this order: coarse mech, fine mech, bio. So I am going to move the socks in the middle. So there would be a section for the heaters, then one for Poret foam, then filter socks, then ceramic rings. It's where I am right now. Like I said, it's all under advisement. ;)



I did realize after I made this that my open standpipe does need to come down below the water surface. I will probably keep the emergency drain above, as I hope the noise would help alert me to something being amiss. I'm going to get back on the computer and make some more tweaks and then post some more renderings. Having fun working through something I've never done before.

yup, you want that audible emergency noise splashing about in your sump :). I have tested my system to get the emergency to engage, and there is no way I wouldn't hear it if I was in the room lol

[nofearengineer]

Okay...you guys were right (go figure :p). I put the socks first. I was informed that 4-inch socks are total crap and a pain to change all the time, so I went with 7-inch socks. I will of course put a pre-filter over the "sock box". I was told a "10 ppi foam" would help with sock clogging.
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Turns out having to make the run along the back gives me a nice place to tuck my heaters that won't run low and is still pretty accessible for cleaning.

I have all my plumbing sitting in piles in the corner now. It's probably best I finalize this soon before I lose the ability to resist gluing things together and cutting holes haha.
96856

[nofearengineer]

As usual...my project is "making me" buy more tools. :p

Almost makes me wish I had a wife to hide it all from.

New table saw blade for plexiglass.
New table saw dado set for making my QT tank racks.
New cordless jigsaw for cutting new door opening in 240 stand.
Might as well get the cordless hand vac too then LOL.
Bought a bunch of black Plasti Dip for the back of the tank, as well as a bunch of Weld-On #4 and #16 for bonding the sump baffles.

Pumps came in last night too.

Next week is going to be insane.

Must.....have....discus.....

[nofearengineer]

As with so many parts of this build, I got an education yesterday in acrylic. I almost bought the acrylic Home Depot pushes..."Optix". That would have been a bad mistake. Apparently, it is "extruded", as opposed to "cell cast". I hear the extruded stuff doesn't bond well and has all manner of other problems too. Now I understand why it costs less.

Gotta find a good deal on some cell cast.

[nofearengineer]

No cell cast available locally. Ended up costing $160 online for enough acrylic to make all my sump parts. And it might take up to 3 weeks to be delivered. Delays, delays, delays....

[rickztahone]

I really wish I would have seen your post from 4-16-16 earlier. I would have saved you time by telling you to avoid the crap at Home Depot. That is cheap plexi really which you don't want in your tank. You say you have none locally, but I found at least 6 shops locally to me that carry it. Just google plastic shop near me and a bunch pop up. Call their customer service and ask if their acrylic is cell cast. If it is, then almost ALL of these places have scrap bins. I bought a $50 scrap bin that allowed me to make a full inner and outer overflow box as well as baffles for my 40g breeder sump. $160 is pretty steep but I guess that is the price you pay for custom :). How do you plan to cut the slots on the acrylic you have depicted?

[rickztahone]

Subscribing to your thread btw so that I don't miss any other posts ;)

[nofearengineer]

I really wish I would have seen your post from 4-16-16 earlier. I would have saved you time by telling you to avoid the crap at Home Depot. That is cheap plexi really which you don't want in your tank. You say you have none locally, but I found at least 6 shops locally to me that carry it. Just google plastic shop near me and a bunch pop up. Call their customer service and ask if their acrylic is cell cast. If it is, then almost ALL of these places have scrap bins. I bought a $50 scrap bin that allowed me to make a full inner and outer overflow box as well as baffles for my 40g breeder sump. $160 is pretty steep but I guess that is the price you pay for custom :). How do you plan to cut the slots on the acrylic you have depicted?

Rick, that is the difference between California and SW Indiana. For certain things, we are in a wasteland. I'm not saying it doesn't exist...but it wasn't worth me super-sleuthing it. In my life, time is the only resource that is truly scarce. I did look at Home Depot while I was there today burning a hole in my pocket, but just for aquarium top material. Even their really thin, flimsy, cheap crap isn't cheap.

All of my pieces are at least 12x15 anyway, so I will make myself feel better by rationalizing pieces of that size wouldn't be in a scrap bin anyway. :p

As far as cutting, I've got a table saw with a nice Diablo blade for acrylic (80 tooth, zero rake angle).

I also have a router, table, and spiral bit for acrylic.

I picked up my lumber for my QT tank racks too. The next week is going to be a building frenzy.

[rickztahone]

Rick, that is the difference between California and SW Indiana. For certain things, we are in a wasteland. I'm not saying it doesn't exist...but it wasn't worth me super-sleuthing it. In my life, time is the only resource that is truly scarce. I did look at Home Depot while I was there today burning a hole in my pocket, but just for aquarium top material. Even their really thin, flimsy, cheap crap isn't cheap.

All of my pieces are at least 12x15 anyway, so I will make myself feel better by rationalizing pieces of that size wouldn't be in a scrap bin anyway. :p

As far as cutting, I've got a table saw with a nice Diablo blade for acrylic (80 tooth, zero rake angle).

I also have a router, table, and spiral bit for acrylic.

I picked up my lumber for my QT tank racks too. The next week is going to be a building frenzy.

Very nice. How about I send you a couple of acrylic pieces your way then and get my acrylic cut with channels? :laugh:. I only have the blade for straight cuts. I didn't need anything but that for my current sump but am considering doing something more fancy this time around with the current 30g sump build.

[nofearengineer]

Very nice. How about I send you a couple of acrylic pieces your way then and get my acrylic cut with channels? :laugh:. I only have the blade for straight cuts. I didn't need anything but that for my current sump but am considering doing something more fancy this time around with the current 30g sump build.

Hey! You pay shipping, and I'll cut anything you want heh.

[rickztahone]

Hey! You pay shipping, and I'll cut anything you want heh.

What would you use to cut a larger opening for a 7" sock?

[nofearengineer]

What would you use to cut a larger opening for a 7" sock?

Several different ways to do it. They make a tool that has a drill bit in the center, with two knife-looking things on adjustable arms that you put in a drill and just slowly cut out. It's really made for cutting drywall and wood though...the finished edge will not be beautiful. The tool is about $25.

Since I have a router, I will probably make a template by cutting a square of 1/2 inch plywood and using a jig to cut a 7-inch hole in that. Then I'll just use a router bit with a collar bearing to cut all the nice 7-inch holes I want.

[nofearengineer]

I got the stand painting done today.
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I can't believe it took me so long to finish. Trying to paint the inside top of the stand was a particular joy. That moment when you realize you're not 19 any more. Youth is totally wasted on the young haha.
60 hours a week and 4 herniated discs in ones neck slows you down, it turns out.

I'm going to be doing the black Plasti-Dip on the back tomorrow.
Going to try to roll it on, rather than spray, as I have no experience with it, and don't trust the fumes in the same house with my Psittacus.97056

[rickztahone]

Several different ways to do it. They make a tool that has a drill bit in the center, with two knife-looking things on adjustable arms that you put in a drill and just slowly cut out. It's really made for cutting drywall and wood though...the finished edge will not be beautiful. The tool is about $25.

Since I have a router, I will probably make a template by cutting a square of 1/2 inch plywood and using a jig to cut a 7-inch hole in that. Then I'll just use a router bit with a collar bearing to cut all the nice 7-inch holes I want.

quick tip just in case you haven't seen this done, if you take two pieces of acrylic, and you make a hole that is the exact size as the hole for the sock to sit flush, and then make one that is slightly bigger on top of that. Then, when you weld both of those pieces together, the top layer will serve as a counter sunk circle for your socks so they wont move.

My father in law is a foreman and specializes in drywall, what would the tool be called, do you know? I may be picking up a sump soon and I may actually go acrylic route and may need a filter holder section, not sure yet.

[nofearengineer]

quick tip just in case you haven't seen this done, if you take two pieces of acrylic, and you make a hole that is the exact size as the hole for the sock to sit flush, and then make one that is slightly bigger on top of that. Then, when you weld both of those pieces together, the top layer will serve as a counter sunk circle for your socks so they wont move.

My father in law is a foreman and specializes in drywall, what would the tool be called, do you know? I may be picking up a sump soon and I may actually go acrylic route and may need a filter holder section, not sure yet.

That's a great idea! I haven't used the socks before, so a nudge in the right direction is greatly appreciated. I will probably wait til my socks arrive (I haven't ordered them yet) to cut that final piece...just so the fit is perfect like you say. Maybe I will get fancy and just make a "ring" out of acrylic and bond it to the bottom of the panel. So no disruption of flow above.

The tool is usually called a "circle cutting jig".

[nofearengineer]

A couple more things I figured out today.

I just couldn't stare at my huge driftwood any more without getting somewhere with it.

I found a big (123 gallons) stock tank for sale at a pretty good price ($134).

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http://www.amazon.com/Behlen-Country-RE-226C-Gallon-Galvanized/dp/B008MLK3LU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1461218507&sr=8-1&keywords=stock+tank

It's galvanized steel. I plan on sitting up on a bunch of concrete blocks and heating the tank with propane.

My Mechanical Engineer buddy helped me figure out it would take around 150,000 BTU's of heat to boil 100 gallons of water. Naturally, I chose turkey fryer burners. LOL

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Around 150,000 BTU's total. I found the burners for $35 each, shipped, but I am trying to beg/borrow them off friends for a one-day use.

I'll still need to buy the propane, which could cost me $50-$75.

It might take an hour or so of heating to reach a boil, but lengthy exposure is actually a good thing here. I am going to do everything in my power to make this wood as biologically and chemically inert as I can.

The cost of the tank doesn't bother me a lot, as I have been wanting to set up a mini "pond" on my back patio for a while. Sitting out back in the shade with some goldfish buddies and water lilies could be cool. I'll probably do that next Spring. I have a feeling I'm going to have my hands full with my dinner plates for a while.

[nofearengineer]

Sweet. I just found an even bigger stock tank (72 x 24 x 24) available locally, for less ($120). I'm already picturing boiling cedar, water lilies, and shubunkins.

[Phillydubs]

Maybe give that pretty bird the paint brush and have him help?

Looks like he can get into more compromising positions than your battered self ;)

[nofearengineer]

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Got one of my QT racks mostly done today.

[ktm4us6]

Your setup looks really good so far, I can't wait till you get it done. your driftwood looks awesome by the way.

[nofearengineer]

It saved me a little more money (and time, most importantly), but I ordered a tri-burner setup, all ready to go. Over half a million BTU's on tap, baby.

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The advantage here is they're already all ganged together, so no need to make some sort of manifold to split or have multiple small tanks.

I didn't pick the crazy fast/expensive shipping, so it'll probably take 10 days to get here. Who knows, I could get lucky.

I'm walking out the door right now to go buy the stock tank and 100lb propane bottle. Some investigating really saved me some bucks on the propane. AirGas wanted $100 for the propane, and signing a $100/year lease, as they DO NOT re-fill propane bottles. A local welding supply place actually offered up the same information I already had on getting the bottle elsewhere ($127), and they will re-fill for $57 bucks. I guess they will get all my blacksmithing/welding/CO2 for my aquariums business from now on.

[Debow]

When your done you could set up a red-neck hot tub! Or a have a super Turkey or fish fry !

[Jack L]

Wouldn't soaking it in your main tank with chlorox water get you to the same place?

[nofearengineer]

Wouldn't soaking it in your main tank with chlorox water get you to the same place?

Clorox would sterilize it, for sure. But that would just cover biological issues. The boiling should take care of chemical issues. Like if it were exposed to any oil while floating around. Nothing's perfect, and I know a lot of people would just say "just do it", but I'm a worry wart, and I can use the extra stuff I bought. So extra peace of mind is worth it for me. My burners get here Monday, so I'll be making cedar broth next week!

[nofearengineer]

When your done you could set up a red-neck hot tub! Or a have a super Turkey or fish fry !


Don't you think I haven't considered a nice redneck swimming pool!

I get together with a dozen fisherman friends every couple of years. I believe I shall offer to bring the cooking supplies hehe.

[nofearengineer]

Sung to the the tune of Carly Simon's "Anticipation"....

97521

Otherwise known as "proof a Fusion 700 air pump will power 12 sponge filters from a single output".

Luckily it will...the other output got really, really weak. I hate when products don't last.

Stability don't fail me now...I want to order some feesh very soon.

[nofearengineer]

Whoah....developments.

Well, the neck injury that has been kicking my butt bore some more ill-tasting fruit yesterday. I had to get an MRI, and I about flipped my lid when I came out from under the general anesthesia in recovery. Like people rushing to hold me down while I screamed like a crazy person. I laugh about it now, as it was like it wasn't even me, but at the time I was terrified, like I was in an alien abduction or something. HAHA, my abs, arms, and legs are still sore from all the struggling I must have done. They were probably glad to see the viking go.

Anyway, with that out of the way, I went home and prepared for my new fish this to be delivered this morning.

A picture of the racks I built for QT. Luckily, they fit perfectly in my kitchen (being single is amazing ehehhe).
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After a night of fussing over heaters and water (including managing to set a probable world record for instances of spilling it, washer full of wet towels agghhhhhh), the anticipated knock on the door finally came at 9AM.
98831

I was so amped, I literally had the fish floating in no more than 5 minutes. They were pretty lively, splooshing around in their bags. Some water had leaked out inside the box, but each fish still had plenty in its individual bag. Nice job, John.
98832

I gave them 30 minutes to temperature match, then just drained the bags and plopped them into 84F water.

The Japuru Greens seemed honest to god non-plussed. Within 30 minutes, they were all swimming around, with some even seeming like they were looking for food. I can't wait to give them their first food tomorrow morning.
98833

The Heckels are worrying me a bit. While they initially got nice and pretty, (like the photo), they've gotten a little dark, and are all huddling in the corner. They're pretty scared. I have taken a big sheet of cardboard and blocked out most of the window you see, so they are in much less light now. Hopefully they will relax a little and come out.
98834

By the way, these are all cell phone pics, so please excuse the quality. At some point, I'll get my DSLR out and do them proud.

[rickztahone]

That light may have been the cause of skittishness. Keep an eye on them and don't turn on any lights on the tank for a few days.

[nofearengineer]

It's funny. The Greens are actually doing all their pecking order business already. I noticed two of them had lost their bars, and wouldn't you know it, it really does mean relaxed and confident. Those were the two that were already bossing others around haha.

Hopefully the Heckels will be a little more calm in the morning.

[Second Hand Pat]

First congrats on the new fish. :D I suspect you will find the heckels more shy then the greens. You would have been ahead if you had painted the bottom, side and back of your QT. Can the fish see thru the bottom of the tanks? If so place a thin layer of sand (SFS) in the tank. Also when I added IALs to my heckel tank it seemed to have a calming effect. You can also add rooibos tea to the water may help tremendously with calming the heckels.
Pat

[nofearengineer]

First congrats on the new fish. :D I suspect you will find the heckels more shy then the greens. You would have been ahead if you had painted the bottom, side and back of your QT. Can the fish see thru the bottom of the tanks? If so place a thin layer of sand (SFS) in the tank. Also when I added IALs to my heckel tank it seemed to have a calming effect. You can also add rooibos tea to the water may help tremendously with calming the heckels.
Pat
Thanks Pat!
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They are doing much better this morning. Their enthusiasm over some frozen bloodworms assured me all was well. They went nuts. They're still not as outgoing as the Greens, who already think they own the place, but they're coming around.

The tank is on a plywood shelf, so they can't see through. I put a sheet of cardboard in the window to cut most of the light as well. Maybe I should have painted the back black.

I'm going to see how they like some Hikari bio gold tonight, and then do a water change.

[Phillydubs]

Really awesome all around! Give them some time and they will all be begging like little puppies!!

Congrats on all the new additions!!

[nofearengineer]

My Heckels eventually figured out the goodness that is FOOD.

Oh, and that my hands are the source of it.

Here they are looking for more after they ate all of their first tentative scoop.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2OD8JTpSXA

I also took a short video if the Greens in the tank below.

There is one smaller one that has turned his bars off and thinks he runs the show already. He's probably going to be my favorite.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRfN1mXFmnk

[Jack L]

Thanks for update and nice additions, I'm awaiting the look of this final setup and the driftwood all together

[Debow]

So how have the last 2 month's been treating you? How's the tank doing?

[Debow]

Bump?

[Coffee1stLife2nd]

any updates???