Tape worms

[LizStreithorst]

I saw tapes floating in the tank of an Angel pair last week. I have kept Discus and Angels since 2001 and although I'd used PraziPro a few times just to see, I have never seen tapes expelled. The fish must be loaded with tapes if they expelled them without medication!

I have pure Prazi coming in from Jhemco Monday. This will be interesting. I saw the tapes in one 29 gallon tank, but when I treat one tank I treat all tanks. I can't wait to see tape worms expelled. The pair with the infestation is home bred. If it's in my home bred fish it must be in all my tanks. I'll let y'all know what I see when I treat.

[Jack L]

I saw tapes floating in the tank of an Angel pair last week. I have kept Discus and Angels since 2001 and although I'd used PraziPro a few times just to see, I have never seen tapes expelled. The fish must be loaded with tapes if they expelled them without medication!

I have pure Prazi coming in from Jhemco Monday. This will be interesting. I saw the tapes in one 29 gallon tank, but when I treat one tank I treat all tanks. I can't wait to see tape worms expelled. The pair with the infestation is home bred. If it's in my home bred fish it must be in all my tanks. I'll let y'all know what I see when I treat.

How big?
Photo by chance?

[Second Hand Pat]

Hope this goes well Liz :)
Pat

[brewmaster15]

How big?
Photo by chance?

Jack, I have an article here on tape worms with pics...

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/internal/tapeworms.shtml


Liz,
The way tapeworms spread is related to pieces of the worm breaking off and being passed into the water by the fish. The worms body is segmented with each piece carrying eggs. The mature worm itself stays attached and continues to grow and shed pieces into the water. It you are seeing pieces of tapeworms, odds are you'll see some good size worms expelled with prazi. Not uncommon for the fish to have many worms verses one.

hth,
al


segments..
94438

[Jack L]

good article

[LizStreithorst]

I remember that thread, Al. I couldn't believe how long that thing was! My Prazi will be in Monday. I bought enough for three treatments. I hate to treat but when I have to I am thorough.

[Cosmo]

As I recall, a badly infected fish can develope constipation due to all the dead tapeworms, so keep plenty of epson salts handy :)

[LizStreithorst]

Will do, Jim.

[LizStreithorst]

I started treatment on Wed. Thursday morning no tapes had been expelled and the water was crystal clear. By the time I got home from work I saw no tapes but the water looked thick and cloudy in many tanks. Today after work it was so cloudy in 6 tanks that I did a wipe down and flopping on the bottom WC and re dosed. I did my sole Discus tank too which was just moderately cloudy, but they are Discus, after all. I'll do the other 7 tanks tomorrow.

I have experienced this cloudy water before when treating for spiro but I thought that the tapes would be expelled in huge segments, not dissolve. My water is moderately soft but I still need RO for eggs to hatch. gH 0, kH 4.5. Has anyone else who has treated for tapes seen this?

[brewmaster15]

Liz,
How did you dose the Prazi?
Al

[LizStreithorst]

1 teaspoon per hundred mixed with a bit of acetone and then water.

[brewmaster15]

Liz, I thought so.

The acetone maybe the culprit on the cloudy water, its been known to do that sometimes....doesn't seem to hurt the fish but you can just mix it in water and shake in a jar. It'll float around and dissolves slow but enough will get in to kill the worms.
You can also mix it with the food..

hth,
al

[LizStreithorst]

I could use Vodka too, right? Will a bit of vodka cloud the water?

The strange thing is that I haven't seen the first tape worm. I know I have them because I saw one floating in the tank before I treated. It could not have been anything but a tape.

[brewmaster15]

Vodka should be fine.

Usually you see them within 24 hours

[LizStreithorst]

I should have seen them and haven't. I'm still sure I have tapes. What I saw before I treated was a classic example of a tape worm. I think they may be disintegrating rather than being passed whole. I'll drive into the big city where it's not against the law to buy the hard stuff and pick up a pint of vodka. (ah the joys of living in the Bible Belt) I'm looking forward to seeing if vodka vs acetone makes a difference in water clarity.

Thanks for the help, Al.

[brewmaster15]

Good luck Liz

[Chicago Discus]

Vodka should be fine

All that good Vodka going to waste :p....LOL. Hey Liz Prazi-pro in the liquid form works great for tape worm and no wasted Vodka.....Josie

[brady]

I have 2 questions.
1- If you have a healthy tank how do you get tape worms?
2- Al, do you mean the solvent, thinner, ect acetone?
that stuff is deadly? I can't believed it would be used in a fish tank.
Jay

[brewmaster15]

Jay, yes the same solvent. Acetone has been used for years to get some meds into solution. The amount used is very small..a few mls. Its not used much nowadays but in the past it was. ITS CRINGEWORTHY ....I know but It works. DMSO was another chemical used alot.

Hth,
AL

[mee]

Interesting about the acetone, that's a new one on me. I use it for cleaning up solder joints after using flux, and cleaning other odds and ends (not plastic). The official solder flux cleaner is something like 60/40 with acetone and alcohol, don't remember which is 60 and which is 40, but doing 50/50 makes for some very effective cleaner IME, wonder if this would tranfer to an even more effective solvent for the praziquantel...

[LizStreithorst]

All that good Vodka going to waste :p....LOL. Hey Liz Prazi-pro in the liquid form works great for tape worm and no wasted Vodka.....Josie

lol. I bought the rot-gut stuff, not Grey Goose, Josie. I'd used Prazi Pro before when I was doing general clean-ups on the fish. Nothing was ever expelled. When I saw these strings of tapes in the tank I thought that perhaps PraziPro wasn't all it was cracked up to be and decided to go with the pure stuff. I still have not seen the first tapeworm expelled but I saw what I saw in the tank. I am crazy, yes. I am not blind. I'll treat the tanks that I didn't treat yesterday using rot gut vodka and see if I get cloudy water after 24 hrs. Either way I intend to treat thoroughly. Nobody wants parasites in their fish.

[mee]

have you added epsom salt yet? I have heard of dead tape worms clogging up so that the fish is unable to pass them.

[LizStreithorst]

Only to the two tanks I was most concerned about. Nothing in their tanks either.

[Magoo40]

lol. I bought the rot-gut stuff, not Grey Goose, Josie. I'd used Prazi Pro before when I was doing general clean-ups on the fish. Nothing was ever expelled. When I saw these strings of tapes in the tank I thought that perhaps PraziPro wasn't all it was cracked up to be and decided to go with the pure stuff. I still have not seen the first tapeworm expelled but I saw what I saw in the tank. I am crazy, yes. I am not blind. I'll treat the tanks that I didn't treat yesterday using rot gut vodka and see if I get cloudy water after 24 hrs. Either way I intend to treat thoroughly. Nobody wants parasites in their fish.

Just to clarify the vodka is used in a very small qty to dilute the meds correct?

[mee]

Just to clarify the vodka is used in a very small qty to dilute the meds correct?

It sounds like it dissolves the powder for easier dispersal.

[LizStreithorst]

Yes, and IMO it dissolves the prazi even better than acetone.

[mee]

Anything ever come out Liz? I have been wanting to treat my whole stock for awhile as I have suspected their may be one or two fish with some sorta worm related funk. Also where did you get your prazi? Kensfish is the cheapest source I know of, but they are out of stock.

[LizStreithorst]

I buy all my meds from Jemco. I'll do my last treatment tonight, thank God. Even using alcohol the water on some tanks got cloudy and the glass slimy. I'm sick to death of all the wipe downs and flopping on the bottom WCs. It takes 600 gallons of aged water to do half my tanks which is all I have. I do half the tanks one day and the other half the next.

On several occasions I've seen white strings floating in the water. Even with my glasses on I can't say for sure that they are segmented. I'm thinking that they are decomposing immature tapes, but since nobody who has treated with Prazi has seen what I've seen I'm just guessing. I did loose several BN from bloat.

What symptoms are you seeing in your fish? With tapes you often see no symptoms at all. The rule of thumb is that if the fish show no interest in food or pick it up and spit it out it's hex. If the fish eat but don't gain weight it's round worms.

[mee]

Basically I have two fish that are picky eaters. They do eat, but some foods the rest gobble, they spit. Even when I cater to them and feed the foods the like the best and really fill their stomachs their weight gain is very slow, and if I forget to cater to them they lose weight fast. Both are also much less colorful than their counter parts. Even if they are just finicky, I am pretty certain I have some gill flukes on several fish, one of the finicky eaters included, but the other two or three are healthy, but I see what to my eyes look like flukes, and I am worried it may have spread to my fry as I am seeing little red spots near the first gill plate (not sure what it's called) and redness on some of their noses. Could be agression, or water quality as I was doing a big reorganization of tanks a week or two ago, and let my water quality slide a bit, and it was about this time I started seeing it. Though I separated some fry into a new tank and it seems to have almost completely vanished with this group... so I am still up in the air if there is a problem with them or just water issues/agression. I am not a medicate nut, quite the opposite and almost always go to salt first and very rarely go to anything else. But I feel a one time dosing may be good measure to be sure. From my experience (with large Africans) Praziquantel is very safe compared to other meds, and I just feel it would be a good idea since I plan to bring some to the US relatively soon, I would like to clear them of as much as I can before bringing them to a sparkling clean fish room.

[LizStreithorst]

I know for a fact that the Prazi is safe for fry. They say it works for flukes but I don't know how well. Surely someone else here will know or you could ask the folks at Jemco. They have all the answers. I've always used PP for flukes. It's just a single 4 hr treatment and although you have to keep a watch on the tank during treatment. I wouldn't be comfortable using it on small fry.

Picky eaters generally have hex which requires metro (another PITA treatment), If I were you I'd do the Prazi first and wait a week or so after the end of treatment to see if your picky eaters pick up. If not, I'd do the metro. It is also extremely safe. But check with the folks at Jemco. They won't steer you wrong.

BTW, when I have doubts, I will always treat prior to breeding. Small fry who are compromised often never reach their full potential. Also, and this may be overkill, when I treat I treat all fish in all tanks, not just the few showing symptoms. I use the same nets and equipment on all my tanks, and am always moving fish around. My thinking is that the weakest show symptoms but all have been exposed and are likely infected. Hope this helps.

[Jack L]

I buy all my meds from Jemco. I'll do my last treatment tonight, thank God. Even using alcohol the water on some tanks got cloudy and the glass slimy. I'm sick to death of all the wipe downs and flopping on the bottom WCs. It takes 600 gallons of aged water to do half my tanks which is all I have. I do half the tanks one day and the other half the next.

On several occasions I've seen white strings floating in the water. Even with my glasses on I can't say for sure that they are segmented. I'm thinking that they are decomposing immature tapes, but since nobody who has treated with Prazi has seen what I've seen I'm just guessing. I did loose several BN from bloat.

What symptoms are you seeing in your fish? With tapes you often see no symptoms at all. The rule of thumb is that if the fish show no interest in food or pick it up and spit it out it's hex. If the fish eat but don't gain weight it's round worms.

do you have a microscope?
i found a nice but inexpensive on on craigslist. i was able to see the segments of algae with it.

[LizStreithorst]

If he had a scope he wouldn't have been asking us. It is a good investment although I have never been able to identify hex with my expensive one. Round worms are easy.

[Jack L]

i meant you, unless i confused the thread flow.

"On several occasions I've seen white strings floating in the water. Even with my glasses on I can't say for sure that they are segmented"

i've not have personal experience with tape, so i was just curious. but based on al's article, i'm guessing a magnifying glass may be enough?

[LizStreithorst]

Forgive me. I do have one. When I moved back home I stored it in the barn for several months. It was covered but it got is so dirty I can no longer see anything through it. I'm sure I'd have been able to see if the strings were segmented under the lowest magnification.

I just called the veterinarian who I worked with for many years. He and I are fast friends. He said the scope lady will be coming to his clinic Tuesday. I will take my scope into his place Monday. If I had done this years ago I wouldn't be stuck not knowing now. Thanks for the kick in the arse.

[yogi]

Liz, I doubt your fish have tapeworms if you didn't see any expelled after using prazi. I use prazi once in a while in my tanks against gill flukes. Several years ago I used it and 5 red rose discus I got from Dan at Elite or whatever the company's name was started expelling them all over the place. This was just a couple hours after putting the prazi in the tank. I never saw any white worms in the couple months I had the fish before I used the prazi. These were Wayne's Discus that he was selling and they were eating and growing fine. I just never knew they had tapeworms. I did call Dan to let him know in case any of his customers called to say they were having problems he knew to tell them to use prazi.

About a year and half ago I got some new wilds. After a few weeks I treated them with prazi. Never saw any white worms in the tank before the treatment. All the fish were fine except one. She laid on her side and was just loaded with them they were sticking out her butt and she was breathing real heavy. On every exhale I saw one in her mouth going back and forth. I expected her to be dead in the morning. But she wasn't she was up and fine. It did take her a couple days to resume eating. I still have her.

[mee]

I know for a fact that the Prazi is safe for fry. They say it works for flukes but I don't know how well. Surely someone else here will know or you could ask the folks at Jemco. They have all the answers. I've always used PP for flukes. It's just a single 4 hr treatment and although you have to keep a watch on the tank during treatment. I wouldn't be comfortable using it on small fry.

Picky eaters generally have hex which requires metro (another PITA treatment), If I were you I'd do the Prazi first and wait a week or so after the end of treatment to see if your picky eaters pick up. If not, I'd do the metro. It is also extremely safe. But check with the folks at Jemco. They won't steer you wrong.

BTW, when I have doubts, I will always treat prior to breeding. Small fry who are compromised often never reach their full potential. Also, and this may be overkill, when I treat I treat all fish in all tanks, not just the few showing symptoms. I use the same nets and equipment on all my tanks, and am always moving fish around. My thinking is that the weakest show symptoms but all have been exposed and are likely infected. Hope this helps.

We are on the same page Liz, I like to treat all when I do treat. They fry are still eating like piggies and growing fine. The only slow growing was at my hands since I cut their food to less than half while I tried to get on top of their water quality. Still content with their shape and growth. They are in the 2 inch range, so not too terribly small. Hex = tape worms? BTW, I do have a couple cheap microscopes, but they are a bit of a pain to use and actually get clear images. Unfortunately the only Praziquantel I can find in this country is overpriced, so I will have to order from Jehmco or another online seller.

[Jack L]

Fwiw on scope, I found a universal phone holder on Amazon. Then the phone camera once in place makes a nice way to view, take photo or video and zoom in digitally

[LizStreithorst]

May be not, Jerry. If I did, I sure don't have them any more. I wish I could explain the slimy glass and cloudy water. It will always be a mystery, I guess.

[LizStreithorst]

We are on the same page Liz, I like to treat all when I do treat. They fry are still eating like piggies and growing fine. The only slow growing was at my hands since I cut their food to less than half while I tried to get on top of their water quality. Still content with their shape and growth. They are in the 2 inch range, so not too terribly small. Hex = tape worms? BTW, I do have a couple cheap microscopes, but they are a bit of a pain to use and actually get clear images. Unfortunately the only Praziquantel I can find in this country is overpriced, so I will have to order from Jehmco or another online seller.

No. Hex is a flagellate similar to giardia in dogs and humans. It is treated with metronidazole.

Sorry you're having a hard time finding Prazi. I assumed that you lived in the States.

[mee]

No. Hex is a flagellate similar to giardia in dogs and humans. It is treated with metronidazole.

Sorry you're having a hard time finding Prazi. I assumed that you lived in the States.


OK, understood, flagellate's are sometimes on the gills too right?

I am from Seattle or perhaps better put the NW, as I spent about half my life in Oregon, but also lived a bit in Alaska as a child, and Mexico and Hawaii as a teen. I now live in Japan (not a military brat, just worldly).

[LizStreithorst]

I don't think they are on the gills. As far as I know they only infect the gut. I treat with metro at 400 mg per 10 gallons daily for 12 days. This guy recommends treating for 14 days. The treatments on most metro labels recommend treating at 250 mg prt 10 gallons but the parasites have become resistant to metro at this low dosage. It is extremely safe. When I treat I do big daily WCs. My theory is out with the bad, in with the good, but it's just what I do. It's not set in stone. http://discus-fish-care.blogspot.com/2013/04/internal-parasites.html

[yogi]

May be not, Jerry. If I did, I sure don't have them any more. I wish I could explain the slimy glass and cloudy water. It will always be a mystery, I guess.

This is just a guess. I believe the prazi kills off some of the bio filter even if it says it doesn't.

[nc0gnet0]

May be not, Jerry. If I did, I sure don't have them any more. I wish I could explain the slimy glass and cloudy water. It will always be a mystery, I guess.

My guess is it is a bacterial bloom brought on by the presence of Sugars in the tank. I used to see this when using the levanasol sold by David Rose ( it was a sugar based pigeon product). Alcohol is a complex sugar. Just my guess.........


-Rick

[mee]

I don't think they are on the gills. As far as I know they only infect the gut. I treat with metro at 400 mg per 10 gallons daily for 12 days. This guy recommends treating for 14 days. The treatments on most metro labels recommend treating at 250 mg prt 10 gallons but the parasites have become resistant to metro at this low dosage. It is extremely safe. When I treat I do big daily WCs. My theory is out with the bad, in with the good, but it's just what I do. It's not set in stone. http://discus-fish-care.blogspot.com/2013/04/internal-parasites.html

Ordered 25 grams of praziquantel powder today. Should be more than enough. Going to hold off on ordering Metro till after treating with the Prazi, just cause I want to see how much the finicky eaters improve from just the Prazi. Will likely still do the Metro even if all is well, cause again I want to bring the fish to the US squeaky clean. For the record most my fish are very healthy piggies. The finicky two are not wasting away either, just not as plump and vibrant as the others.

Thanks Liz.

[mollyb]

kinda interested to figgur out where you got the tapeworms from. You mentioned this was a tank raised fish from your own system, all cestodes (tapeworm) seem to require an intermediate host before infecting the last host and forming segmented bodies. The intermediary hosts cn be fish, but then these fish never develop the segmented intestinal worm, jut an encysted paracyte in the muscle tissue. I think snails can be an intermediate host for the tapeworms that go segmented in fish. one fish in a tank with tapeworm can infect others, but not to the final stage of the life cycle. just curious, I would treat everything as well. I agree with the bacterial bloom / sugar theory btw.

[LizStreithorst]

The pair of fish that I saw what was obviously strings of tape segments in are homebred fish. But I have bought Angles, Pearl Gourami's, Guppies, and BN Plecos from outside sources. I don't treat while the fish are in QT unless I see a problem. I just wait and introduce a sacrificial lamb from the fish room. If all goes well for several weeks, I move the fish in QT to the main fish room. I use the same equipment on all tanks in the fish room, and I move fish around all the time. About 6 months ago I added mystery snails from my tank at my shop to the fish room. That's all I know.

The sugar theory sounds logical to me, as well.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Liz,
Careful with those Snails. Snails in general can carry many different kinds.of worms.
Hth,
Al

[LizStreithorst]

Hi Liz,
Careful with those Snails. Snails in general can carry many different kinds.of worms.
Hth,
Al

Just what I wanted to hear (not) Can you send me a link or give me more info, please?

[brewmaster15]

If you do a google search for "tapeworms and snails" you will come up with a ton of info..

This article ison tapeworms and poultry but had good general info..
http://www.organicvet.co.uk/Poultryweb/disease/tape/tape.htm

[brewmaster15]

Its a bit off topic here... but this...http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2007/02/19/build-me-a-tapeworm/


Has some interesting info.
Al

[mee]

Its a bit off topic here... but this...http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2007/02/19/build-me-a-tapeworm/


Has some interesting info.
Al

Anyone else have the munchies for some praziquantel after reading that article?

[mee]

Anyone else have the munchies for some praziquantel after reading that article?

I feel like I should say something like "I am not advocating medicating yourself with praziquantel intended for your fish", just that video made me feel like all humans have a fairly high chance of being carriers of something in the tape family.. After 30+ years keeping fish, maybe my chances of carrying a whole array of tape worms and their relatives is higher than most. I am guessing most wouldn't want to fess up if they have had any such critters, but it has me wondering.

[mee]

OK, I have Praziquantel now. I haven't used it in about 5 years, but also am thinking with discus it is a bit different, since it says to dose once and not change the water for 7 days. Especially if I dose the fry I would ideally like to keep up with my regular feeding and at least daily water changes. So if I do 80-90% water changes is it safe to assume I can pretty much do a full dose of Prazi after each water change?

[LizStreithorst]

Mee, forgive me...I was concentrating more on my own problem than on your problem. It doesn't sound to me that your fish have tapeworms. Prazi only works for tapeworms and gill flukes. If you have picky eaters it is more likely that you are dealing with hex.

When you order meds from Jemco always tell them how much water you change and how often. They are very nice there. They'll figure out how much of the medication you need to complete treatment. If you buy metro for hex tell them how much water you change and that you want to treat at the rate of 400mg per 10 gallons. The instructions on the label are for lesser mg. per gallon.

[mee]

Mee, forgive me...I was concentrating more on my own problem than on your problem. It doesn't sound to me that your fish have tapeworms. Prazi only works for tapeworms and gill flukes. If you have picky eaters it is more likely that you are dealing with hex.

When you order meds from Jemco always tell them how much water you change and how often. They are very nice there. They'll figure out how much of the medication you need to complete treatment. If you buy metro for hex tell them how much water you change and that you want to treat at the rate of 400mg per 10 gallons. The instructions on the label are for lesser mg. per gallon.

Liz, it's OK, but I am mostly concerned with gill flukes, as I am pretty sure I can see some near the outer gill on a couple fish. I am not the type to medicate without reason, but because prazi is safe, and because there is always a chance of tapeworms in healthy food, and well, because I have it, I figure I might as well run a treatment. If what I think are gill flukes fall off, awesome. If tape worms fall out, well it will be interesting. Another reason is that I will be selling fish locally, and I don't want to be that foreign guy that spread gill flukes to their prized fish. It is hard enough to do business without knowing the language well, so I really need to be on my game here.

[LizStreithorst]

good thinking

[mee]

good thinking

Thanks, but not such good typing ;) food was supposed to be fish.

So back to the original question what was the dose per gallons you used, and how often? On mine it says 10 gram per 1000 gallons of "pond" water. I will probably hold off on dosing for a couple of weeks since I have a fresh batch of 1 week old fry in one tank.

[LizStreithorst]

they say pond water because people use it in their ponds. I used the dosage on the container but since I change water every day I always replace the amount that I've taken out with each WC.

[mee]

OK, thanks Liz, it sounds logical to me.