Chemically what changes

[MickO'S]

Hey guys,

Been doing lots and lots of research on discus here and other places on the net. There is a very solid consensus that large water changes and bare bottom tanks are the way forward when growing on young discus. This is what I intend to do.

What I don't know is what changes in the water when doing big water changes. I am keeping and growing on angel fish very happily in a heavily planted co2 injected 125 gallon aquarium. My water is changed 50% 3 times a week. With this my amonia nitrate and nitrates are kept at 0 and fish and plants do very well. My water is very hard so lots of calcium to allow my angelfish to grow fast and keep up with the 5-6 feeds a day of flake, pellets, frozen daphnia frozen brine shrimp and other frozen foods along with daily beef heart.

What changes when it comes to discus, what's missing from the story ? I accept it is different but haven't read anything other than "fresh water" being essential. What is it in the fresh water that is required by the discus.
What chemically changes to make things work for discus ? That other fish don't need.

As I said I accept the need for 50% daily change and am going to provide for them when I get them, I want to fully understand what I'm doing and why

Michael

[Dudley Eirich]

I'm glad that you have done some good reading and are planning to do the BB tank with discus. In response to your question, it isn't so much what is in the fresh water, but what isn't in fresh water that keeps discus happy and healthy. Discus tend to be more sensitive to nitrate accumulation so most people who successfully keep discus keep the nitrate levels at 5 ppm or lower. However, even if you had the perfectly balanced tank and could keep nitrate levels at zero with good plant growth, you would quickly run into health problems without good water-change management. Growing discus are also much more sensitive to their own waste accumulation and the bacteria that thrive on that waste. Removing the solids isn't enough since there are a lot of water soluble wastes that can accumulate to harmful levels quite quickly. Frequent and large water changes are the only way to keep discus happy and healthy, and that is particularly true if you are trying to grow large and beautiful adult discus from 1" to 2" discus fry.

[Akili]

I'm glad that you have done some good reading and are planning to do the BB tank with discus. In response to your question, it isn't so much what is in the fresh water, but what isn't in fresh water that keeps discus happy and healthy. Discus tend to be more sensitive to nitrate accumulation so most people who successfully keep discus keep the nitrate levels at 5 ppm or lower. However, even if you had the perfectly balanced tank and could keep nitrate levels at zero with good plant growth, you would quickly run into health problems without good water-change management. Growing discus are also much more sensitive to their own waste accumulation and the bacteria that thrive on that waste. Removing the solids isn't enough since there are a lot of water soluble wastes that can accumulate to harmful levels quite quickly. Frequent and large water changes are the only way to keep discus happy and healthy, and that is particularly true if you are trying to grow large and beautiful adult discus from 1" to 2" discus fry.Just to add to this Discus produce excessive amounts of slime which eventually adheres to the tank inner surfaces that ends up hiding some nasties.Most of us feed beef heart and that also makes the water and tank surface slimy. Discus reared in tanks with 100 % daily water changes have shown larger and faster growth and have nice shapes overall. With clean water they (Discus) also do not end up sick most of the times.

[Len]

Both of those comments are true. More specifically to what I think you are asking is that it is easier to wipe down a bare bottom tank and keep it near perfectly clean but fish waste, uneaten food and general sludge build up in substrate and it can become a breeding ground for bacteria and nasties that would otherwise not have a place to flourish.

[pastry]

Your routine would be fine for late teens or adults. For anything 4.5 inches or under then they'll grow but odds are against them growing to potential. I've had huge angels, tetras, rams, plecos, cories, etc..... but for some damn reason can't do the same for discus in my planted tank. It is what it is. Some few have cracked the code but far and few. My biggest from last group of little guys I raised in my planted tank were 2 shy of 6.75 by an eighth. But the rest of that group hovered between 5.75 and 6.25. Kept old thread on it if you want to see all details, pics, etc over a year+

[MickO'S]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the information. What's said makes great sense so far. So it appears from what's said is that the slime coat that sticks to the glass and the particular sensitivity of discus to the bacteria in feces that when kept in low numbers does not affect other fish, but it affects the discus is the difference ! Wow !!

Now I'm much happier moving on with my project.
Dudley,
I hope to get 12 to 15 2.5 to 3 inch discus, I would not consider starting with fry but the cost of sub-adults is unaffordable so this is my compromise ! I have desirable platinum angelfish that will be almost a year old when I am getting the discus and will be swapping these in my lfs for the discus, along with all my other fish bar the Cory sterabi. The angles are already a really good size for their age so 7 more months growth they will be a good swap and a cheaper way of starting with discus.

Thanks Akili and Len, this is exactly the info I was getting at:)

Pastry ,
I would love to see your thread, I'm reading all that I can, seems to be perfectly suiting my future project.

My plan is to get a 180 to 200 gallon built in my living room replacing my 8 year old 125 gallon. When the discus are of sufficient size I will plant it up and see how things go :))

[Akili]

Your plan kind of reminded me of myself more than 25 years ago,I use to carry my angels that I raised in those days to a local fish store and swap for supplies. There came a day that I did not need any dry goods and the store did not have to much of saltwater selection. The owner of the store offered me half a dozen 2 inch Discus instead. That's how I started.

[Phillydubs]

Hey Mick, sounds like you already got some good advice and not to repeat anything...

I just wanted to ask... Is the purchase of young small fish to grow out simply a financial decision or for the fact that you want to try your hand at raising and growing... The reason I ask is because if you want to try your hand growing them out and all that fun than fine, but I've made his point a few times in the past about financial... From the start sure a $10-20 investment seems less than say a $60-100 one but I always remind people the work and "other costs" assosicated wih raising small fish. Sure on paper it's easier to say well 15 juvies are cheaper but when you do the math of your time the variety of food need, the water if you pay for that and so on and so forth I always remind people that this cost savings that seems apparent isn't so...

I'm not trying to deter you from your end goal and t sounds like you know what is needed and are ready and have had great success with other species before. Just from a guy who years ago used to try 3" fish to "save money" I was never happy in the end until I went ahead and finally got a tank full of big boys...

Good luck with whatever you do and can't wait to see pics and your set ups!!

[Dudley Eirich]

Hey Mick, sounds like you already got some good advice and not to repeat anything...

I just wanted to ask... Is the purchase of young small fish to grow out simply a financial decision or for the fact that you want to try your hand at raising and growing... The reason I ask is because if you want to try your hand growing them out and all that fun than fine, but I've made his point a few times in the past about financial... From the start sure a $10-20 investment seems less than say a $60-100 one but I always remind people the work and "other costs" assosicated wih raising small fish. Sure on paper it's easier to say well 15 juvies are cheaper but when you do the math of your time the variety of food need, the water if you pay for that and so on and so forth I always remind people that this cost savings that seems apparent isn't so...

I'm not trying to deter you from your end goal and t sounds like you know what is needed and are ready and have had great success with other species before. Just from a guy who years ago used to try 3" fish to "save money" I was never happy in the end until I went ahead and finally got a tank full of big boys...

Good luck with whatever you do and can't wait to see pics and your set ups!!

There is a lot of wisdom in what Phil wrote. I have always gone the inexpensive way and always purchased quarter-sized fry and raised them to adulthood, initially to save money, but I found that I enjoy seeing the fish grow and mature and finally pair off. Overall, I have been pretty successful, but, since juvenile discus have a lesser-developed immune system, they tend to get diseased pretty easily, so you are always treading a fine live between feeding them sufficiently to grow nice-sized adults and overfeeding them with the result that they get sick, stop eating, hide in a corner, and, if left unmedicated, will eventually die a slow death. For that reason, I always have medications on hand and have generally always had to use them for one reason or another. On the plus side, I have raised some good-sized, nice-looking discus that paired off and successfully bred. On the minus side, there are always those that no matter what you do right, they will not eat well and are runts or they will get sick and medicating them will not bring them back to health. That said, I have raised about 50+ discus fry to adulthood and have only lost about 3-4 from disease or trauma. Adults however are much easier and hardier so there is much less drama and frustration with them. If you decide to go with juvenile discus, be prepared for nearly a year of many small feedings and lots of water changes, have medications on hand and know how to use them. I think it is worth the effort, but you need to know what to expect before making your final decision.

[pastry]

3-4 from disease or trauma. Adults however are much easier and hardier so there is much less drama and frustration If you decide to go with juvenile discus, be prepared for nearly a year of many small feedings and lots of water changes, have medications on hand and know how to use them. I think it is worth the effort, but you need to know what to expect before making your final decision.

Big time on lots of tiny feelings so nothing is left uneaten. I had a clean up crew but still violated that rule.

[Akili]

Hey Mick, sounds like you already got some good advice and not to repeat anything...

I just wanted to ask... Is the purchase of young small fish to grow out simply a financial decision or for the fact that you want to try your hand at raising and growing... The reason I ask is because if you want to try your hand growing them out and all that fun than fine, but I've made his point a few times in the past about financial... From the start sure a $10-20 investment seems less than say a $60-100 one but I always remind people the work and "other costs" assosicated wih raising small fish. Sure on paper it's easier to say well 15 juvies are cheaper but when you do the math of your time the variety of food need, the water if you pay for that and so on and so forth I always remind people that this cost savings that seems apparent isn't so...

I'm not trying to deter you from your end goal and t sounds like you know what is needed and are ready and have had great success with other species before. Just from a guy who years ago used to try 3" fish to "save money" I was never happy in the end until I went ahead and finally got a tank full of big boys...

Good luck with whatever you do and can't wait to see pics and your set ups!!


There is a lot of wisdom in what Phil wrote. I have always gone the inexpensive way and always purchased quarter-sized fry and raised them to adulthood, initially to save money, but I found that I enjoy seeing the fish grow and mature and finally pair off. Overall, I have been pretty successful, but, since juvenile discus have a lesser-developed immune system, they tend to get diseased pretty easily, so you are always treading a fine live between feeding them sufficiently to grow nice-sized adults and overfeeding them with the result that they get sick, stop eating, hide in a corner, and, if left unmedicated, will eventually die a slow death. For that reason, I always have medications on hand and have generally always had to use them for one reason or another. On the plus side, I have raised some good-sized, nice-looking discus that paired off and successfully bred. On the minus side, there are always those that no matter what you do right, they will not eat well and are runts or they will get sick and medicating them will not bring them back to health. That said, I have raised about 50+ discus fry to adulthood and have only lost about 3-4 from disease or trauma. Adults however are much easier and hardier so there is much less drama and frustration with them. If you decide to go with juvenile discus, be prepared for nearly a year of many small feedings and lots of water changes, have medications on hand and know how to use them. I think it is worth the effort, but you need to know what to expect before making your final decision.Both of these are are sound advice,following them I can not see anybody going wrong.I am of old school of going with juveniles.

[Phillydubs]

I totally agree and that was sort of the jist of my post. I've gotten juvies that became stunning adults and I was so proud. I just know the effort that takes... I recently got in 5 large wind discus and the joy of getting such large healthy well shaped fish was a similar high for so many diff reasons. Trust me whichever route you choose will be worth it just make the decision that works for you and your wants

[afriend]

Hey guys,

Been doing lots and lots of research on discus here and other places on the net. There is a very solid consensus that large water changes and bare bottom tanks are the way forward when growing on young discus. This is what I intend to do.

What I don't know is what changes in the water when doing big water changes. I am keeping and growing on angel fish very happily in a heavily planted co2 injected 125 gallon aquarium. My water is changed 50% 3 times a week. With this my amonia nitrate and nitrates are kept at 0 and fish and plants do very well. My water is very hard so lots of calcium to allow my angelfish to grow fast and keep up with the 5-6 feeds a day of flake, pellets, frozen daphnia frozen brine shrimp and other frozen foods along with daily beef heart.

What changes when it comes to discus, what's missing from the story ? I accept it is different but haven't read anything other than "fresh water" being essential. What is it in the fresh water that is required by the discus.
What chemically changes to make things work for discus ? That other fish don't need.

As I said I accept the need for 50% daily change and am going to provide for them when I get them, I want to fully understand what I'm doing and why

Michael

Michael,

There's some good advice in the posts above. Just be aware that there is more to the story than just water changes. This involves keeping the entire tank clean from a biological standpoint, and an awareness of the basic nature of discus. Would suggest the following link that explains it in a little more detail:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?120956-What-Are-Bioload-and-Biomass-and-Why-They-Are-Important

Hope this is helpful.

Paul

[kiwdahc]

I don't think I have ever seen this question answered on here in a scientific way of what is the actual measured differences between the water. People just know that it works.

[rickztahone]

I don't think I have ever seen this question answered on here in a scientific way of what is the actual measured differences between the water. People just know that it works.

There is empirical evidence all across this board that more water changes work better than less water changes.

[afriend]

I don't think I have ever seen this question answered on here in a scientific way of what is the actual measured differences between the water. People just know that it works.

kiwdahc,

The problem is that the measurement of organic compounds suspended or dissolved in the water column requires expensive equipment that is generally beyond the average person, at least it is in my case. However, I do have a microscope and have observed a very significant difference in the number of pathogens in the tank for a clean vs a dirty tank.

Also, I have attempted an assessment of the overall problem in the link contained in my post #13. Would be interested in your view on this matter after you have read it.

Paul

[MickO'S]

Thanks guys,

Thanks for all the info, it's been really useful in my ongoing pursute of creating the best setup I can for my house and my discus. Particularly pastey for the really helpful pm and post, I've got great reading over the last week to keep my going out of all the posts.

If I were to create a planted setup with ozone and or a quality uv setup to deal with the bacteria and pathogens, through water changes to deal with ditirious and cleaning glass to deal with the protine build up...... Has anybody gone down this route to manage their discus ??

All stated in my original post still stands, wanting to know as much as I can so as to have all equipment in place before my new tank is even ordered !!

[MickO'S]

Hey guys,

I have spent the last 10 days digesting the information in this thread. I decided to really concentrate on showing myself how clean clean my heavily planted aquarium actually is........................ or isn't !

So I have gone deeper into my plants with my syphon than ever before. Holy c*** my tank is mankey. ("Mankey" Irish slang for really dirty) the amount of ditirious poo and old food is incredible !!! All my readings are at zero or maybe a small bit above just before a water change but always below 2, but always within the top range and acceptable for discus on paper, BUT from my work over the last 10 days I have allowed my eyes to be opened as to how much crap gathers at the bottom and within the stems of my plants. As I'm filling my tank back up I used the end of the hose to blow more ditirious up as I refill good god there is some amount !!

My current fish, angelfish tetras Codie's and Rams are doing exceptionally well. I fear that would not be the case with discus. I suppose all part of what makes my plan of bb all the more real and necessary !

Anyway guys, thanks for the info so far !

Michael

[DJW]

Rams can be like canaries in a coal mine. If you can keep them healthy for more than 6 months then your tank is not a complete death trap. One thing I do with a planted tank is feed a different way. I don't allow food to go flying around loose they same way you would in a bare tank.

[Alight]

I did the planted discus tank for a while (2 years). With adults, it can work, but what a lot of work! The warm water temperature (82-84) makes everything grow so fast that you are trimming plants every day. Even with CO2 you are cleaning algae every day. Keeping the substrate clean--more work! And the discus are big heavy fish and will destroy your aquascape, eat your plants (those that say discus are strictly carnivores never had discus like mine). And it is even more of a pain to change lots of water with all of the plants and rocks.

With young fish, double the work, plus add the damage the fish will do to themselves on rocks and scapeing you do (more work). I found that I just didn't enjoy the fish any more, even though they were very beautiful in the tank.

Get a new test kit if you really thing your nitrates are zero. I was never able to keep in less than 10 ppm without 80% changes ever other day. But I did over stock the tank (6 adult discus in a 55), so I knew what the problem was.

I've gone back to bare bottom, and the fish are big and happy, and it is so much less work, that I enjoy the fish again.