Gill Fluke Pics

[tvoydan]

Got tired of guessing about a diagnosis of gill flukes and finally took a scrape of one of my discus. No doubt now.

A couple treatments of potassium permangante and discus are better than new. Eating like pigs. Not flashing, scraping or twitching anymore. Breathing is normal too.

Nasty little buggers these flukes are.


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[dprais1]

the last one seems to have a mocking smile upon it

[jmf3460]

the last one seems to have a mocking smile upon it

+1 laughing at us all.

[Davidzil]

What was your PP treatment?
Did you treat the whole tank?

[modealings]

Must be relieved to know the culprit. How did you do the scrapings - q-tip?

[delta5]

2nd photo looks like a man's....

[tvoydan]

Must be relieved to know the culprit. How did you do the scrapings - q-tip?

Netted the discus out and placed him on a towel. Gently scraped the edge of the slide along both sides of the discus below the pectoral fin and just behind the gill plates. Also around the chin area the discus. This accumulates slime on the edge of the slide. Drop fish back in tank. Whole process too maybe 3 minutes (fish out of tank).

Added drop of water from tank to top of slide and used slide cover to spread the slime around and then placed slide cover over this. Ready for observing in microscope.


What was your PP treatment? Did you treat the whole tank?

Treated whole tank. Bare bottom. Only removed driftwood to sanitize separately. Left filters running.

Did a water change on a Monday, cleaning sides and bottom of tanks to removed as much organics as possible. On Wed after work (6pm) dosed the tank (125 gallons) with 1 gram of PP. Had to add very small amounts periodically (1.5 hours) to keep color in the pink/light purple. Started my water change at around 9:45 as it takes 15 minutes for tank to drain anyway.

Repeated treatment 3 more times for a total of 4 treatments every 4 days.

Discus seemed to be free of flukes after 2 treatments (via microscope).

Did not seem to effect the filtration at all.

Discus color was off each time (they lightened up in color), but came back after about 2 days. Fish are eating like pigs again.

Things to keep in mind:

Higher bio-load will neutralize the PP faster.
Very recent water changes may still have de-chlorinator (Prime) in the water and will instantly neutralize the PP.
Keep hydrogen peroxide nearby to neutralize if fish are in distress.
If you cross contaminate tank again with infected nets or water changing hoses, you get to experience the joy of flukes all over again.
It's difficult to weigh out 1 gram with my cheap little digital scale. I'd look into preparing a stock solution next time.

[Davidzil]

I found this article:

Dr Erik L Johnson 5/19/96
Recently, almost every publication has run some form of my recommendations on the use of Potassium permanganate. I expounded on two methods, one involved maintaining a pink water color with sequential doses over ten to twelve hours.
This was extremely time consuming, and repeat dosing made a lot of folks very very nervous. The second method utilized a series of five jars which were used to test the Potassium demand of the water, and allowed for considerable error in the form of under-dosage.
I have since been experimenting with a new method that works very well, and which has been verified microscopically by clearance of fluke parasites, under numerous conditions encountered in local (and national) pond situations.
In other words, we treated a lot of ponds this way and results have been 100%.
Potassium permanganate is a caustic alkali that oxidizes organic molecules in water. In this process, organisms and bacteria are killed, which makes it an effective antimicrobial, anti-parasitic and molluscicidal compound. The POTASSIUM PERMANGANATE eventually converts into Manganese Dioxide and can be removed with water changes and filtration. We appreciate POTASSIUM PERMANGANATE because it is effective against waterborne bacteria infections, external fungal infections, all ciliate infections that are not encysted, all Trematode or fluke infections, and many others. The Potassium Permanganate does not do well against the macroscopic parasites like Lice or Anchorworm but these are quickly eliminated by DimilinR.
Potassium Permanganate stains fabrics badly, and can stain human skin to a deep brown color, a staining that lasts up to 12 hours. Eye protection should be worn whenever this compound is in service.
To treat fungus, parasite, and bacterial conditions with Potassium Permanganate, several elements or steps of the new method need to be clarified.

First, bypass biologically active filter media.
Filter bacteria can be killed off by Potassium Permanganate and this can have deleterious effects on water quality. If the filter is small, flow rates are low, or fish are crowded or overfed, the effect is more pronounced than if the conditions are less loaded.


Second, make sure water flow and aeration are optimal.
The water needs to be aggressively agitated during treatment because as the organic molecules are oxidized, and string algae die off, water turbidity becomes threatening and dissolved oxygen can plummet. If you cannot hear the water circulating, splashing and mixing, then concern over dissolved oxygen should be great. You will lose fish.

Thirdly, apply 2-4 ppm as a single dose in the morning.
2 ppm is indicated when young fish, un-scaled fish such as Doitsu, or when Orfe are treated. Never treat catfish with more than 2 ppm. 4 ppm is a better dose for scaled Koi. None of the recommended doses will harm plants, you will be relieved to know. Many retailers use Potassium Permanganate as a dip for incoming plants to exclude snails and their eggs.
To dose 4 ppm you could measure out 1 gram per hundred gallons.
Alternatively, knowing that 6 grams fits neatly into a level, non packed teaspoon, you could dose with one teaspoon per six hundred gallons.
Add the calculated dose to a bucket of pond water and mix to dissolve it. Once the solution is stirred up, distribute it all around the pond, but especially in the water returns to be sure mixing is good and complete. A fish can be clouded by the blast in the pond and remain unharmed.
Once in the pond, the Potassium Permanganate will begin to eat up (oxidize) organic molecules and debris, fish wastes and mulm, as well as string algae. It may only remain purple for a few minutes in heavily loaded systems. Once it's energy is spent, the water will turn to tea, amber or orange, or even brown, and then you may go to the fourth step.

The fourth step is to resume normal filtration and execute a partial water change.
The following morning you would execute treatment two, adding the calculated dose of Potassium Permanganate in a bucket and dissolving well. Add to the pond with even distribution after bypassing biological media and ensuring aggressive water circulation/aeration.

In treatment two, you should notice that the water remains purple for a longer period of time. The reason is that the initial dose of Potassium Permanganate has oxidized a lot of the mulm and organic loading of the system. Again, after the dose of Potassium Permanganate turns to amber or brown as viewed in a cup or bucket, then you may resume normal filtration and execute a partial water change.

The following morning you would execute treatment three, adding the calculated dose of Potassium Permanganate in a bucket and dissolving well. Add to the pond with even distribution after bypassing biological media and ensuring aggressive water circulation/aeration. This treatment lasts even longer, due to the reduction in system organics from the previous two treatments. You do not need to remain at pondside for the treatment, although someone should be attentive to resume filtration and perform a small waterchange once the compound has deactivated. It is usually this third treatment that begins to let the fungi and flukes in a system know that things are very wrong in Koi Ville.

The fourth treatment *usually* stays purple for over three hours. The fungi, bacteria and flukes during this treatment take a royal pounding. Fish are flourishing as the organic and bacterial load in the system take a dirt-bath. If the third or fourth treatments stay purple for longer than eight hours, then this is the last treatment, this is usually sufficient to eliminate Flukes in the serial treatment. For most people, however, the fifth treatment is the capper, and then they are done.

A major water change (40%) is suggested after the fifth treatment in order to help remove a lot of the leftover brown scum and oxidized material from the system. After this change, you will smell crisp clean water, observe good color in the fish, frenzied feeding behavior, and really *white* whites as the fish enjoy the best water they've been in for years.

[tvoydan]

I also read everything I could find on flukes and watched any video on youtube I could find.

Koi pond owners and forums seems to be a wealth of knowledge.

My take on fluke eggs is they stick to the side of the discus slime and hatch from there. There are possibly thousands of sub-species and they can evolve to attach to a specific fish or part of a fish, like under the gills, behind the gills, etc.

My pic does not match the classic fluke with 4 eyes. Have a friend who had that type of fluke on his discus and his pics are slightly different than mine.

Prazi doesn't work. Waste of money in my opinion. Either the flukes are resistant or the slime coat of the discus protects the fluke.

[Davidzil]

interesting research, what about the filter

[tvoydan]

interesting research, what about the filter

I wanted to disinfect the entire tank, so filters were left on and did not seem to be affected. I do water changes pretty regularly so ammonia and nitrates have a hard time accumulating in my tank.

[Pardal]

Good reading, a little different as how I learned , just want to add many of us use hydrogen peroxide aka (oxygenated water) to stop the reaction and in cases a particular fish is not doing too well.
It, looks like magic. I just show it recently to a young member of a local fish club , it was nice to see the expression on his face as the brown water goes crystal clear in seconds.

For that reason you should never leave unattended your PP treatment. you need to be able to stop the reaction at any given moment if necessary, and a partial WC may take too long.
Julian

[Las Vegas]

Prazi doesn't work. Waste of money in my opinion. Either the flukes are resistant or the slime coat of the discus protects the fluke.
Oh I'm so glad you said that. I just had a gill fluke problem. I treated for 12 days and thought this stuff doesn't seem to be working very well. I thought 12 days took to long. Treatment say 5 to 7 days. But I didn't see good enough results and I read on this forum that someone said to treat for 10 days. I stopped treatment and my discus seemed fine. But if it happens again, I think I'll try something else.