Some beginner questions

[Kelly99]

Hi, i just acquired a group of young discus, and i have a couple of conserns, but first some information. I have had quite a few fishtanks up through the years, breeding different tetras and cicklids. I am not familiar with Discus, but i read quite a bit before getting them. My fishtank is about 700 litres (185 gallons), have three large mangrove roots and some anubias, and 4 large Echinodorus bleheri and a few others. Fine sand on the bottom. I bought a group of 10 Discus, from 2-3 inches approx. I bought them through a dealer in Oslo, that orderered from Imazu in Sweden, a large shop/breeder. In the tank i also have 20 Cardinal Tetras, a few Ancistrus, 10 Corydoras Sterbei, a pair of Keyhole cichlids and 4 Angelfish. Filterwise i have an Eheim Prof. 3 2080 and an Eheim Prof 3 2071 with a JBL UV filter. Lights: 4 x 80W T5.

Watervalues: NO2 0, NO3 around 10, NH4 0, GH3, PH 6,6, temp: 82.5 - 84F. I do 30 % waterchanges twice a week. First question: There are a lot of chasing and harassing going on in between the Discus. The 2 red melon which are the largest ones, dominate the others, next on the order seem to be the 2 Snowwhite ones. I had a lot of cichlids before, but never seen this much aggression almost all the time. The first 2-3 days they were all a little apprehensive, and stuck to each other and swam together. After that the battle for dominance started and allthough now, after a week gone by, the peckingorder seem to have been set, it still just as much chasing and harassing going on. I have read that this is normal, and it actually shows that the fish is doing ok (natural behaviour) but how long can i expect this to go on? Right now the 10 Discus are spread all over the tank, not the shoaling fish i was hoping for so far.

My biggest concern is that they every now and then rub against the plants, and sometimes their fins vibrates/move fast back and forth, and they swim erraticly for a short while, then back to normal. Something is obviously bothering them. i have noticed that the Corydoras also rubs against the sand sometimes, i always thought they were itching from possible some chlorine in the water. The Discus started this almost from day 1. First i thought of gillworms, but the store said they were treated for this befaore export from Sweden, but i am not sure though. Then i was thinking about my waterchanges. Because of the amount of water, i have been filling water straight from the kitchen faucet using a Aqua in/out set, and using the hotwater to temper the water to match the tank. I live in an appartmentcomplex from 1978, and was thinking that the heater might hold water with copper and other heavy metals. Would this explain the behaviour of the Discus? Anyhow, i bought a 200l barrel today, that is approx 30% of the fishtank, and i have ordered a pump to get it from the barrel to the tank. So my plan is to store cold water from the faucet over night, with a heater and a oxygene to air out as much as possible to see if that will help after a while.

I would love to hear from any experienced Discusowener out there, i only want the best for my fish.

They are eating ok, not a whole lot though yet, and the two packleaders chase others way, so i try to feed in different places but its not easy. I have one Discus that sits in one corner for the most part, he has his colors still and havent turned dark. He looks healthy but doesnt each much, after one week in the tank. I have been feeding them Tetra Discusbits, Beef heart granulat and Turkey heart granulat, as well as Brine Shrimps, so far the Tetra bits have been the best. Thinking about trying either Repashy or Stendker frozen food, or red/black frozen mosquitolarvaes. i try to feed them 5-6 times a day.

Best Regards
Øyvind
Oslo, Norway

[Akili]

Welcome to SimplyDiscus, To all newcomers to this site and this hobby, I recommend to go through the stickies’ in the Beginners Section and watch this video
https://youtu.be/VXe3VKh7qF8 it is just over an hour long but worth hours of information

P.S. A must read thread in the beginner section http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?86009-Beginner-s-Guide-to-Getting-Started-with-Discus
After this if you have questions feel free to post them and I sure someone will help you out.

[Akili]

The rubbing is most likely is due to unstable water as you are using it straight from the tap.Take a reading of the pH of the tap water. Fill a bucket of water leave for 24 hour with an airline in it then take the pH reading and let us know.I also recommend that you age your water for 24 hrs before using it also if you can agitate the water and a heater to the barrel.

[Kelly99]

Thanks for the info, both. Do you want me to use cold tap water, or tempered tap water as i have been using for waterchanges? I seem to remember that the tap water has 7 PH, but ill measure. i always wondered why the tap water was 7 and the fishtank 6.6. The roots might lower the PH a little, but not that much, could be the nitrification cycle perhaps. i will get back here with the results.

[LizStreithorst]

I think that you are doing the right thing by heating and aerating your water for 24 hrs. At 10 your nitrate is too high. With Discus is should be 5. Change enough water to keep it at 5. Change it daily for a week. If you still see the scratching and rubbing after a week treat for gill flukes. I can't help you with aggression. I've never had a problem with aggression until the fish starting reaching adolescence.

[Akili]

I use hot and cold mix when I am filling the ageing barrels, most of the times it is in the 90's and it drops to 82F to 84F. I do have a heaters in my barrels to stabilize and I agitate the water with airstones.

[Kelly99]

The rubbing is most likely is due to unstable water as you are using it straight from the tap.Take a reading of the pH of the tap water. Fill a bucket of water leave for 24 hour with an airline in it then take the pH reading and let us know.I also recommend that you age your water for 24 hrs before using it also if you can agitate the water and a heater to the barrel.

Hi, the PH right from the faucet (Cold water) was 7, maybe 6.9, little hard to tell on the JBL colorchart. The tap water in the bucket after 24 hours with two airstones, no heater, had PH 7.2. Temperature rose from 50F to 75.2F. I assume i will need a heater in the 200l barrel to get it up to tank temperature. I am still waiting for the pump to arrive. Whats best, wait for the waterpump and skip a waterchange, or do a "straight from the faucet tempered waterchange as normal, which the fish dont like?
I am not sure why the PH rose just sitting 24 hours in a bucket.

[delta5]

Hi, the PH right from the faucet (Cold water) was 7, maybe 6.9, little hard to tell on the JBL colorchart. The tap water in the bucket after 24 hours with two airstones, no heater, had PH 7.2. Temperature rose from 50F to 75.2F. I assume i will need a heater in the 200l barrel to get it up to tank temperature. I am still waiting for the pump to arrive. Whats best, wait for the waterpump and skip a waterchange, or do a "straight from the faucet tempered waterchange as normal, which the fish dont like?
I am not sure why the PH rose just sitting 24 hours in a bucket.

Your water released build up gases, like CO2.

I have a 35G for aging my water. 200W heater and a circ pump. It hits 82F overnight when warm outside. Up to 24hrs when super cold.

[Akili]

Hi, the PH right from the faucet (Cold water) was 7, maybe 6.9, little hard to tell on the JBL colorchart. The tap water in the bucket after 24 hours with two airstones, no heater, had PH 7.2. Temperature rose from 50F to 75.2F. I assume i will need a heater in the 200l barrel to get it up to tank temperature. I am still waiting for the pump to arrive. Whats best, wait for the waterpump and skip a waterchange, or do a "straight from the faucet tempered waterchange as normal, which the fish dont like?
I am not sure why the PH rose just sitting 24 hours in a bucket. Water from the tap is under pressure,so it contains dissolved gases, in particular CO2. The significant amount of dissolved CO2 will temporarily lower the pH of the water. After standing for 24 hours, the pH will rise, sometimes significantly. The change will vary depending upon the amount of dissolved CO2. Even small changes in pH are stressful for fish. If the change is extreme enough, it can be lethal. It is possible that the rubbing you complained about is due to pH of you tap water.

[LizStreithorst]

Please reread post number 5. You are not changing enough water. Your nitrate in the tank is 10. For Discus is should be 5! Your pH changed from 6.6 in the tank to 7.2 with aged tap. This much of a swing is too much for Discus.

First, change 30% daily for several days and see if the nitrate drop. It should. The pH in might be a point or two below aged tap but that's no big deal. A .2 swing doesn't matter.

The heater and aeration in a water storage container can't hurt, but since your water from the tap has only a .3 pH swing, I doubt it. If it was the heavy metals from the water heater it would have taken longer before you saw a problem.

This is a long post and I'm ending up saying what all of us who have been around the block before have said....Change more water.

[Kelly99]

Hi, i hear you about changing more water. So me starting to store water will cause a new problem with a bigger PH gap than when i did the waterchange straight from the tap, i wasn't expecting that. About the nitrate, i thought i would be fine with around 10 based on many threads on different forums, i think it is gonna be hard to get that down to 5 in a planted tank without changing 70% water every day, and i cant do that, i already have a job. So 10 in nitrate is the big bad guy here causing the discus to rub? Well, i get my pump today, so i am going to do 30% daily water changes for a week to see if it helps, with the nitrate and with the fish. Since the PH difference is bigger using stored water than water straight from the tap, what would you recommend i do?
I am considering removing all plants, just keep 2 big roots and the sand and stick an airstone in. Tank wont be that pretty anymore, but maybe i can get the nitrate down, cleaning the bottom will certainly be easier.

[Kyla]

u could put those plants into pots if u want to keep the greenery

[Kelly99]

yes, i guess i could do that with a couple of the large swordplants, the anubias is already grown into the roots, so they are fine, ill give it a thought.

[LizStreithorst]

I thought that I made myself clear but must not have. The reason your pH is lower in the tank than your aged tap is because you are not changing enough water. You have a planted tank and stuff is decomposing and hiding in the gravel all the time. If you change enough water your pH tank pH will be the same as your aged tap and your nitrates will go down to 5.

[Akili]

I thought that I made myself clear but must not have. The reason your pH is lower in the tank than your aged tap is because you are not changing enough water. You have a planted tank and stuff is decomposing and hiding in the gravel all the time. If you change enough water your pH tank pH will be the same as your aged tap and your nitrates will go down to 5.That ^^^ + 1 and I agree 100 %

[Kelly99]

I thought that I made myself clear but must not have. The reason your pH is lower in the tank than your aged tap is because you are not changing enough water. You have a planted tank and stuff is decomposing and hiding in the gravel all the time. If you change enough water your pH tank pH will be the same as your aged tap and your nitrates will go down to 5.

Thanks, im in the process now, and we see how it goes, i get back here after a week.

[Kelly99]

Hi, just thought id letting you know how its going in my tank. I have been doing more frequent waterchanges for the past 2 weeks (30%), not every day, but every second day average. I pump cold water in a 200l barrel, store it over night with a heater and 2 airstones, and use an Eheim Compact 1000 to pump it into the tank after removing 200l with a Aqua In/Out hose, and vacuming the bottom of the tank. I have also removed a few more plants to open up a bigger area in the whole front of the tank, so i can get to the dirt easier/lower the nitrate. The result is more lively fish, they are not rubbing anymore as far as i can see so far, they seem to eat alot better, and the one that hid in the corner have come out and are eating and actually fought his way up through the ranks among the discus. The nitrate has gone down a little, not down to 5, but somewhere between 5 and 10, so a little lower than before, but not bad concidering i have plants in the tank and feeding them 6-7 times a day.

So, thanks for all the advice, my discus are happy campers now, lets hope thy will grow up to be large and beautiful :)

[Akili]

Glad to hear that thing worked out for you,keep up the water changes and the feeding. Good Luck !!!

[chuckiesmalls]

[QUOTE=Kelly99;1211394] I do 30 % waterchanges twice a week.

say whaaaa. I think this is needed daily...minimum!!!

hope things get better

[LizStreithorst]

I told him what to do, Chuckie. Actually he's dong WC every 2 days which is better than he was doing but I agree, still not near enough. It's funny how people will come here for advice and not follow advice from hobbyists who have been around since God created dirt and think that what we say is over the top. Some people learn fast. With others it takes more time. Others never learn. It used to piss me off but it doesn't anymore. How an owner of Discus takes care of them is up to them.

[Akili]

I told him what to do, Chuckie. Actually he's dong WC every 2 days which is better than he was doing but I agree, still not near enough. It's funny how people will come here for advice and not follow advice from hobbyists who have been around since God created dirt and think that what we say is over the top. Some people learn fast. With others it takes more time. Others never learn. It used to piss me off but it doesn't anymore. How an owner of Discus takes care of them is up to them.What make me wonder is that why in the world one would want to get Discus if they can not give the Discus the care they need. If it is for status and prestige of keeping "The King of Aquarium" then it is for sure wrong reason. Some even suggest the afterall it's their money.