Transitioning my planted tank for discus - help please

[~magpie~]

Hi there,

I have had aquariums on and off for many years. My main tank now is a 65-gallon low-tech planted (mostly SA) community. Because it has been so stable, it is getting a little boring. I know this is a good problem to have. ;)

I was thinking of moving to saltwater, but that would require a larger investment, so I thought to keep things interesting, I could modify my current tank for discus! And I am excited about it. I've never owned them before, so have been doing a lot of reading and research. I've emailed Discus Hans and he was wonderful in answering some questions of mine. I thought I'd ask for more help from the experts here.

1) My tank pic is attached. I recently ripped out a bunch of plants for more swimming room. Does this look OK? Would you change anything?
My main concerns are actually regarding the two wood pieces. I've seen discus swim and they are actually a lot more agile than I anticipated, but I would happily take out one or both, or move one or both of the wood pieces to better suit them, or just get a new piece of wood. I so love the aesthetics of wood in a tank, but will remove if necessary.

2) Size/age of fish. I know that I cannot grow out the small guys in a way that is healthy for them in a planted tank. But large fish are of course more $. What size would you recommend starting with? Hans said anything 4" or larger, but I wonder if I should do 4.5 or more?

3) Current inhabitants. (12 rummynoses, on the younger side; 5 huge old cardinals; 8 big old white-tipped tetras; a handful of nannostomus eqqus; 1 BN plec, 1 para plec (worried about her and the temp); 6 kuhlis.)
Should I move / rehome some? Hans said no. Wondering about the bioload, however. I have an Eheim 2217 canister.

4) Number of discus. Hans said 6-7. My LFS (The Wet Spot in Portland, OR, reputable shop) said 5-6. Maybe 6 then? I was thinking of starting with 4 and adding 2 more later so I don't have to spend so much money. I think that 3 to start might be too small a group... so it will be spendy either way, but less so than adding 6 larger fish at once.

5) Heater recs. I have an Eheim Jager 150 w and it has been going strong for 5 years. But... am worried that it is getting older and won't be able to handle the higher temp required. I'd love brand and size suggestions.

6) Temp. I have gradually increased it over the past week or so, and today it is at 82.5 I know this is at the lower end of the temp range, but with the plants and other fish, I think this might be a nice compromise. Yes or no?

THANK YOU in advance for helping me with my many questions.
98199

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Magpie, answers below each of your questions.

1) My tank pic is attached. I recently ripped out a bunch of plants for more swimming room. Does this look OK? Would you change anything?
My main concerns are actually regarding the two wood pieces. I've seen discus swim and they are actually a lot more agile than I anticipated, but I would happily take out one or both, or move one or both of the wood pieces to better suit them, or just get a new piece of wood. I so love the aesthetics of wood in a tank, but will remove if necessary.

Nice tank but I would suggest moving any plants to the rear of the tank to allow swimming room for discus. I would leave the wood.

2) Size/age of fish. I know that I cannot grow out the small guys in a way that is healthy for them in a planted tank. But large fish are of course more $. What size would you recommend starting with? Hans said anything 4" or larger, but I wonder if I should do 4.5 or more?

Six sounds good.

3) Current inhabitants. (12 rummynoses, on the younger side; 5 huge old cardinals; 8 big old white-tipped tetras; a handful of nannostomus eqqus; 1 BN plec, 1 para plec (worried about her and the temp); 6 kuhlis.)
Should I move / rehome some? Hans said no. Wondering about the bioload, however. I have an Eheim 2217 canister.

Research the fish you have in there now to ensure they can handle the higher temps. I know the tetras should be fine.

4) Number of discus. Hans said 6-7. My LFS (The Wet Spot in Portland, OR, reputable shop) said 5-6. Maybe 6 then? I was thinking of starting with 4 and adding 2 more later so I don't have to spend so much money. I think that 3 to start might be too small a group... so it will be spendy either way, but less so than adding 6 larger fish at once.

Best to buy the whole group at the same time. Less time in QT and the group dynamics will not change when adding more fish later.

5) Heater recs. I have an Eheim Jager 150 w and it has been going strong for 5 years. But... am worried that it is getting older and won't be able to handle the higher temp required. I'd love brand and size suggestions.

I will leave the heater recs to others :)

6) Temp. I have gradually increased it over the past week or so, and today it is at 82.5 I know this is at the lower end of the temp range, but with the plants and other fish, I think this might be a nice compromise. Yes or no?

82 is good. :)

Some other considerations is thoroughly research discus now before you get them. Decide on how and how often you wish to do your water changes as doing water changes is critical to maintaining healthy discus.

Pat

[Phillydubs]

Magpie,

Pat already gave you some fantastic info and advice! I would heed all of what she said... I was hoping to chime in and help as well...

That is a 65 gallon? It looks really small from the picture, is it a weird shape or deeper than usual, doesn't look like much width there?

You should try and go with 5" plus figh, at least I would if I were you and you should get them all at once, spend the money now and do it right off the bat or you will be dumping a lot more money in down the line on sick fish, emds or replacement fish for ones that die...

I am a fan of the aqueon pro heaters myself, I love their look and they are pretty much break proof. You could go with a 200 watt but I always set mine lower as they seem to run high, you can always bump the temp up but you dont want to fry anything because the tank runs too high...

Are you going to hans for your fish or locally?

As pat said, change that water! You really need to be on top of that!

[~magpie~]

Thanks so much already for the info. I can pull that front plant and put in a few shorties up front instead.

I'll take a peek at the aqueon pros.

I'm not sure where I'll be getting the fish yet - have been looking at the forum sponsors. My LFS gets Hans discus, but I looked at them before knowing what to look for as far as healthy discus. The Wet Spot is extremely reputable, but I have read too many warnings about getting LFS fish, even reputable ones, as they often don't set the discus tanks up differently. I'm going to swing by the store again today and look at them more closely and ask about how they keep them.

I have read so many fluctuating opinions on water changes and planted discus tanks that I don't know what to think! Right now with my current setup I typically do 50% water changes 1x/wk. With these fish and the plants I can easily go longer and the water remains stable, but I don't like doing that. I have a python, so WC are not difficult to do. I was going to do more reading on that, along with feeding.

The 65 gallon tank is sort of a strange dimension tank. It's taller than a 55/75. I was told that this was OK for discus because they like to swim up and down?
It's 36"L, 18"W, 24"T

[~magpie~]

Doing more research, I think I will probably stick with the Eheim Jager but increase the wattage to 250. I'm also just starting to read about temperature controllers but need to look into that a little bit more.

I did stop by the store today to check out how their discus look. They actually look pretty good. Active and not out of proportion like some people talk about. The tanks had separate heaters and set to 82. They were eating what looked like frozen blood worms. The only thing is that their prices weren't less per se and there were only a few varieties compared to what you can get online . I'll have to keep my eyes out. I don't know how often they get new stock.

[Phillydubs]

I would order direct no matter what... I mean why would you go to them when you can get exactly what you want to your door right from the importer ?

[Filip]

I would just remove the right front side Echinodorus to leave open front area for feeding.
I would also consider switching gravel to PFS Sand for better water quality.
I would start with 6 discus and buy them all together. The bigger you can afford the better -4.0 inch minimum.
I'm a fan of eheim heaters and ive been using 200 w eheim on my 65 gal tank. It could keep 34C degree steady temp. once when I was treating hex.
Otherwise I keep it 28-29 C .
And I would leave the current stock you got I think they will manage the temp succesfully because of lots of fresh and pristine water that discus tanks ussualy have.

[~magpie~]

I would order direct no matter what... I mean why would you go to them when you can get exactly what you want to your door right from the importer ?
I guess my thoughts were: 1) I could see the fish in person and choose which specific one I wanted. 2) Not pay for shipping and stress them in that process 3) Have discus that are already acclimated to water very close to mine.

But I see now that I'll go directly to the source. :)


I would just remove the right front side Echinodorus to leave open front area for feeding.
I would also consider switching gravel to PFS Sand for better water quality.
I would start with 6 discus and buy them all together. The bigger you can afford the better -4.0 inch minimum.
I'm a fan of eheim heaters and ive been using 200 w eheim on my 65 gal tank. It could keep 34C degree steady temp. once when I was treating hex.
Otherwise I keep it 28-29 C .
And I would leave the current stock you got I think they will manage the temp succesfully because of lots of fresh and pristine water that discus tanks ussualy have.
Thank you so much for your input! Funny, I just pulled that plant yesterday, as well as the others in the opposite corner which just tend to spread and never look great. I removed some of the (pointless, just always been there) rockwork around the left pice of wood for more ground space, set the right piece of wood somewhat more upright and tipped back, and trimmed and moved a couple of other things back. I got a few small crypts to fill in but can pull/trim them as needed. It definitely opens up the front portion of the tank more. We'll see how it goes. I might change the angle of the left piece of wood to go from small in front to more branchy near the middle/back of the tank, but am not sure on that one yet. My other fish seem to like the changes as well. (You just get used to things and leave them as is over time, you know?)

I did test my water yesterday prior to the WC (which is the first time I've done that in probably 2 years) and Ammonia, Nitrites are at 0, and Nitrates at 5.

My substrate looks more like gravel than it actually is - it's what they call "mesh" which is a mix of sand and fine stone bits. The larger pieces tend to settle up top, but underneath is sand. I'm not sure if that makes sense. I will, and have been, keep netting the top layers off and add more sand to make it more of a pure sand substrate.

I bought the 250 Eheim yesterday and will work on calibrating it this weekend.

Thanks again!

[jmf3460]

here is my $0.02, your tank is beautiful, its a beautiful planted tank and would look really great with some large bosemani or angelfish as a centerpiece, or even some larger south American cichlids like keyhole cichlids or guianacara cichlids, even laetacara. But were it me I would not add discus to this tank. There is just too much involved with discus that could be more complicated in this beautiful tank.

I would: 1) get another tank of 75 gallons at the min, add sand and manzanita wood, let cycle and add discus, let this be a discus show tank, biotope style
2) get some other type of centerpiece fish for this planted tank that aren't as demanding as discus. M

Most people who try out discus for the very first time do not succeed with a planted tank. I am not saying its not possible, but it is hard. Plus, 2 tanks are always better than one.

[DJW]

... Plus, 2 tanks are always better than one.

..and 3 tanks are better than 2, and 4 tanks are better than 3, and.............................:juggle:

[~magpie~]

here is my $0.02, your tank is beautiful, its a beautiful planted tank and would look really great with some large bosemani or angelfish as a centerpiece, or even some larger south American cichlids like keyhole cichlids or guianacara cichlids, even laetacara. But were it me I would not add discus to this tank. There is just too much involved with discus that could be more complicated in this beautiful tank.

I would: 1) get another tank of 75 gallons at the min, add sand and manzanita wood, let cycle and add discus, let this be a discus show tank, biotope style
2) get some other type of centerpiece fish for this planted tank that aren't as demanding as discus. M

Most people who try out discus for the very first time do not succeed with a planted tank. I am not saying its not possible, but it is hard. Plus, 2 tanks are always better than one.

Thanks for your input. I realize that this forum is biased against planted tanks, but I just really heavily favor them. I think some of the BB or sand/wood tanks here are beautiful, but they just are not my aesthetic. Even my 5 gallon betta tank is full to the brim with live plants. And they do help keep an aquarium more stable.

I am really trying to read everything I can, and am getting good advice from people who have planted discus tanks. I don't want to fail and I don't want miserable fish. But I know that people can do both successfully..... But people are also so cautionary and I don't want to be an idiot.

Argh! This is frustrating. I am so excited to do discus. :( If this really does not work and they start to show signs of not being happy I will definitely consider pulling plants for them (or I've seen people do plants in pots with a thin layer of sand), or selling this tank and getting a 75.

I have had angels in the past, many years ago. I was considering them before I fell into the discus vortex. They just don't excite me.
I've also had laetacara araguaiae. They were awesome fish! They hunted snails like no other, were really entertaining food beggars, and beautiful. But after they spawned a few times I had to rehome them. They became aggressive toward my other fish and were stressing everyone else out. I would definitely consider doing them again in a breeder tank because I did love them. Here's a pic of one of them. <3
98252




..and 3 tanks are better than 2, and 4 tanks are better than 3, and.............................:juggle:

This IS true. :) I just have to start removing furniture and things that I don't need as much... like bookshelves or the dining room table. LOL

[~magpie~]

Oh my gosh, I found a tank with minimal plants that I would LOVE to have a version of someday. This might be a version of a minimally planted/mostly driftwood and sand tank that I could get behind!

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?69109-New-Showtank

[Filip]

Oh my gosh, I found a tank with minimal plants that I would LOVE to have a version of someday. This might be a version of a minimally planted/mostly driftwood and sand tank that I could get behind!

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?69109-New-Showtank

Nice thread and Magpie.Great tank and discus.
And its stops being minimaly planted after the 4th page :-).

[wannafish]

Hello Mag,

I would like to help. From what I have read and learned here on Simply. Your tank is a nice setup for
Discus, because they are low light plants that are suitable for Discus, and don't need CO2. And I believe
most of them can handle warmer temps. I would consider changing out the substrate as someone has
mentioned to Pool filter sand. It is easy and cheap, and is good for the Discus to sift through for food because
they are bottom feeders. And the plants will grow well as rooters in the PFS. You can add root fertilizer pellets. If you change
the substrate and replant, I would wait at least a month before adding discus, so the plants can establish
themselves. You want everything to be in balance, and you want the water to be optimal for the discus.
I would get a 30 gallon trash can and age your water for wc. I have Discus with anubias, driftwood and crypts and even
some Co2. In your case since you have easily manageable plants, the Discus can inhabit your tank O.k.
As for fish, I would go with 5 or 6 and buy them all at once. Read up on quarantining them before you add them to
the planted tank.

[~magpie~]

Nice thread and Magpie.Great tank and discus.
And its stops being minimaly planted after the 4th page :-).
Isn't it gorgeous? Even initially with just a few plants, but even better with all of the plants added. ;)


Hello Mag,

I would like to help. From what I have read and learned here on Simply. Your tank is a nice setup for
Discus, because they are low light plants that are suitable for Discus, and don't need CO2. And I believe
most of them can handle warmer temps. I would consider changing out the substrate as someone has
mentioned to Pool filter sand. It is easy and cheap, and is good for the Discus to sift through for food because
they are bottom feeders. And the plants will grow well as rooters in the PFS. You can add root fertilizer pellets. If you change
the substrate and replant, I would wait at least a month before adding discus, so the plants can establish
themselves. You want everything to be in balance, and you want the water to be optimal for the discus.
I would get a 30 gallon trash can and age your water for wc. I have Discus with anubias, driftwood and crypts and even
some Co2. In your case since you have easily manageable plants, the Discus can inhabit your tank O.k.
As for fish, I would go with 5 or 6 and buy them all at once. Read up on quarantining them before you add them to
the planted tank.
Thanks for the input. I have read about some people doing the water aging thing, but I don't understand it fully, and it doesn't seem like everyone does that. I live in Portland, OR. The water from the tap is excellent and just shy of neutral pH. It has very low TDS which I found out because I have a venus flytrap and most people use distilled water for, but I can get away with leaving it out overnight for them, which essentially gets rid of the chlorine. (Which Prime does for me.) I'm not sure I'd need to do that but would be happy to hear yoru reasoning behind it.

[~magpie~]

OK, so changing out the substrate is getting a little less daunting in my mind. But I'm still really worried about my current inhabitants. I have a 30 gallon aquarium that I could set up with some heat for them. I could even take the water from the tank and put that into that 30 gallon aquarium.

Then I could rearrange things a little bit and pull out all of that stupid Java moss that I continuously rip out of that tank. I could also rescape then so there's even a little bit more space upfront, although read my current rearranging job did open it up quite a bit. Alternately, I could get an entire new piece of wood that is just one big branchy hunk instead of the two smaller ones.

[Phillydubs]

I would do just that... set up the second tank... You don't even have to transfer water, take a sponge filter out and move that, or if you don't have or use one, let a sponge seed for a few weeks, move all over to the 30 heat it and filter it and then work at your pace with the rescape and getting the tank shifted to sand and all

[~magpie~]

Ok - I can use the spongey filter pad in my Eheim for seeding.

Thanks!

[William1]

I just moved 8 large wild blue discus from my 56g tall to my planted 120g. The 56 is bare bones, two pieces of driftwood and three plants in pots. It was intended to be my grow out tank. The 56 is 30" x 18" x 22". The guys didn't seem real happy in the 56. I was expecting to grow them out so I ordered mediums but Snook sent me all big boys ( and girls I hope), 4 1/2 to 6". The 56 doesn't have enough swimming room despite the lack of ornaments, plants and otherwise. Your tank is 36", 6" wider, but I still I don't think it is an Ideal size for six or more large discus. They have no room to stretch their legs (fins) just mill around. They are probably 90 % more active in the 120, which is 60" x 18" x 24". Swimming with glee. It is very apparent that they are so much happier in the 120 with room to spread out and swim. Just thought I would share. I think you'd be better off with a regular 55G with the length it has. That may not be practical, but I think you and your fish might not enjoy life in the 65 as much as you could, especially if you are getting large fish. Best of luck.

[~magpie~]

Hmmmm.... that is really helpful input actually. Mine is only 6" longer, no wider, and 2" taller. I was thinking of going for 5 but that isn't too many fewer fish. Are you saying even for say a proven pair (which may haggle amongst each other and get territorial during spawning, right?) that they would probably still be cramped? :(

Petco/smart has those $1/gallon sales. Maybe I should reconsider a 75. Sigh.

[William1]

A pair should be fine in that area. But I had to move my eight big fish in my 56G because they just had no room to move. They like to have swimming room. They seem so much happier in the 120G.
There are similar thoughts in the tank journal section in a thread 55 gallon grow out. Might want to give that a read.