Water changes for low-tech, and a few other questions.

[~magpie~]

Hi there,

I am looking at making my current (low-tech, planted 65 gallon) tank a discus tank.

I have been reading widely differering opinions on frequency of water changes in planted tanks. What frequency and amount of water changes do you do with your planted tanks?

This thread also discusses a few other questions that I have, and shows my current setup if you'd like to give me feedback as to other things I should change.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?124638-Transitioning-my-planted-tank-for-discus-help-please&p=1215926#post1215926

Thanks in advance!

[Filip]

I also have 65 gallon planted tank with 7 discus +other fish and I do 3-4 large WCs a week 70-80 % .
Here is a link from my tank:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?121117-My-65-gallon-planted-discus-tank/page4

I also wipe tank glasses and stir the sand as much as i can at least once a week (that's the harder part BTW , than just doing a WC).
And I also clean my prefilters on my intake canister and pump filter every 5 days (tons of poop and crud comes out of them).
And that's about it :-) .

P.s.
Be sure to make very good surface movement and aeration because your tank has strange footage and its too deep to handle 02 needs of discus.

[~magpie~]

Thank you! I'll be certain to check out your link later.

Prefilters - I have to research that more. I know Eheim makes one, but people do DIY ones. What do you have?

I can move my spraybar/output from the Eheim closer to the surface, and point the flow holes up as well for more surface movement. Is there a way to tell how much O2 is circulating, or is that based on how happy the fish look?

I think I will go with 6 discus vs. 7 to err on the side of smaller bioload.

I read quite a bit about people doing 1x/wk 50% WCs and liking that because it actually keeps the tank more stable over time (but clean prefilters more often), and then I read someone like you who does them every couple of days, and it gets confusing. I guess you just monitor the water stats and go from there.

[Phillydubs]

You shoukd def start w larger changes and then scale back if need be. You are going to get 5" discus right ? You will be adding 6 large fish to a tank and your levels will def go up so stay on top of that in the begining. It also depends on your feeding. Since you have larger fish you will not be feeding them as if they Were juvies so that will allow you to cut back on changes.

In all honesty I've tried the once a week in the begining and now I do at minimum 4 big WC a week sometimes more depending on my time and let me tell you it's nigt and day.

I went from always having issues sick or dead fish to knock on wood vey few issues and if j do have one it's usually do to some agression a scrape here or there or a cracked dorsal that heals back in a few days.

I always say do as many as you can but if you don't have time for at least 3x a week then get different fish because in the end you will become a fish vet and not a hobbyist.

[~magpie~]

I appreciate the input, hence the questions. I can do 3x/wk water changes, but have just heard that some people say that with a planted tank you can throw things off more with that many changes, and that it's better to do fewer changes! Argh!

That's why I'm asking for first-hand experience here. So thanks for sharing yours!

What other fish are in your tank? How do you assure that everyone gets fed enough individually? My rummy nose and white tipped tetras go on a feeding frenzy when I feed. Or do the discus really stuck to the bottom? I wonder if you can train the discus to eat out of fingers, a pipette, etc...?

[Phillydubs]

Well that's why it's been suggested to you to keep discus or plants but not both.

[Filip]

Thank you! I'll be certain to check out your link later.

Prefilters - I have to research that more. I know Eheim makes one, but people do DIY ones. What do you have?

I can move my spraybar/output from the Eheim closer to the surface, and point the flow holes up as well for more surface movement. Is there a way to tell how much O2 is circulating, or is that based on how happy the fish look?

I think I will go with 6 discus vs. 7 to err on the side of smaller bioload.

I read quite a bit about people doing 1x/wk 50% WCs and liking that because it actually keeps the tank more stable over time (but clean prefilters more often), and then I read someone like you who does them every couple of days, and it gets confusing. I guess you just monitor the water stats and go from there.

1. I do overkill DIY prefilters on my intakes. I wrap around intake and filter pump many times (multilayer) with filter floss. That's a very dense material that collects the finest debris particles, and it goes from white to black colour in just 3-4 days.
Many people use sponge prefilters .
Prefilters are a must in discus keeping.


2. The more aeration the better, especially with your tank footage .So yes , point the spraybars upwards to enhance the surface movement, and maybe add an additional air pump pipe close to surface W/O an airstone.

3. 5-6 is safer scenario than 7 discus.

4. I don't bother with any water tests at all . I just observe the fish and act accordingly.

Discus have many ways/symptoms to tell you that they need better water quality and more WCs : body and fin pimples, fin break/rot , less activity , darker colours , scratching and darting , clamped fins , aggression etc. Etc.
Ignore them , and very fast they end up with diseases , noneating and death.

All this symptoms will show you that you just can not get away with 1or 2 WC 50% s per week.And that's a first hand, hard learned experience .

Folks that you are talking about , that get away with one WC per week, eather keep 6 discus in + 200 gallons eather give very misleading informations.

[~magpie~]

Well that's why it's been suggested to you to keep discus or plants but not both.

You lost me - which point are you referring to? I know that planted discus tanks are not really favored in this forum, but this is a "planted tank" subsection...? And I do not plan on adding 2-3 inch fish, which I do know is a problem.


1. I do overkill DIY prefilters on my intakes. I wrap around intake and filter pump many times (multilayer) with filter floss. That's a very dense material that collects the finest debris particles, and it goes from white to black colour in just 3-4 days.
Many people use sponge prefilters .
Prefilters are a must in discus keeping.

2. The more aeration the better, especially with your tank footage .So yes , point the spraybars upwards to enhance the surface movement, and maybe add an additional air pump pipe close to surface W/O an airstone.

3. 5-6 is safer scenario than 7 discus.

4. I don't bother with any water tests at all . I just observe the fish and act accordingly.

Discus have many ways/symptoms to tell you that they need better water quality and more WCs : body and fin pimples, fin break/rot , less activity , darker colours , scratching and darting , clamped fins , aggression etc. Etc.
Ignore them , and very fast they end up with diseases , noneating and death.

All this symptoms will show you that you just can not get away with 1or 2 WC 50% s per week.And that's a first hand, hard learned experience .

Folks that you are talking about , that get away with one WC per week, eather keep 6 discus in + 200 gallons eather give very misleading informations.

1. Prefilters - researching that today. I had read about them but haven't really dived in yet.

2. Thank you. Air pump pipe is also on the list.

3. I am leaning more and more towards 5 discus. I think that's due to the tone of this forum which sort of seems to be anti-planted tank. Of course I don't want to add gorgeous fish, get attached to them, and have them miserable, sick, or dying.

4. Thank you. You know, the internet is a black hole of information, and sometimes it's too much. :) I'll plan on water changes similar to your schedule, then, and then just check my parameters to assure that everything is staying stable and the nitrates are down. Like I said, I have a python so it is easy to do. The thing that takes me the longest is trimming plants and ripping others out due to growth. The actual water change is not difficult.

I REALLY appreciate your help and input. And I just looked at your tank thread now that I'm on a computer vs. phone and it's beautiful!

How did you logistically change out the substrate? Did you remove all of the fish to a hospital tank, tear it all down and go for it? I would think that would disturb the ecosystem and the fish so much, but I guess with a mature filter and all of the plants you didn't get any spikes of anything?

[~magpie~]

I read in another thread here (when searching about prefilters) that you can use this instead of the Eheim spraybar to increase the gph/flow. What do you think? It seems to make sense to me, and I can direct that to the surface.

http://www.thatpetplace.com/eshopps-return-jet-1-2in-3-4in

[DJW]

I recently modified a large sponge filter and put it on the intake as a prefilter. It was meant to be temporary after I stirred up a cloud of peat while pulling a plant, but I'm leaving it for a while. I can't see it, its hidden by plants.

[~magpie~]

Yeah, I am looking into that! There is also an Eheim prefilter that supposedly doesn't block the intake flow as much but I don't know if that's true or not.

[~magpie~]

Orrrrrrrrrr maybe I play it more safe even and do a pair?

[Filip]

How did you logistically change out the substrate? Did you remove all of the fish to a hospital tank, tear it all down and go for it? I would think that would disturb the ecosystem and the fish so much, but I guess with a mature filter and all of the plants you didn't get any spikes of anything?

Its safest to put fish and plants in other bucket or a tank, and then take the substratre and all the water out, wipe down the glasses, put the new sand and refill with 100 % fresh tap.
After this you turn on filters and air , wait for couple of hours for water to outgass and than put back fish plants and decor.

You will loose big amount of beneficial bacteria along with the old substrate , and may experience a mini-cycle but you can compensate that with less feeding and WCs in the following 1-2 weeks, until your filter catch up with the current bioload.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Magpie, the forum is not anti-plant :) I did suggest you develop both separately (planted tank and discus) until you get a good handle on both. Once comfortable with both then mix but monitor carefully. We have seen many new discus keepers come to the forum with discus in a planted tank and the fish are in horrible shape and/or sick. We try to give the best advise to new discus keepers to set them up for success with keeping their fish healthy.
Pat

[ktm4us6]

I have juvies in my planted tank and I have a constant water change drip system setup. I tried doing water changes every other day and I could tell a difference in the discus, so I switched to the drip system. Planted tank and discus from my short experience is allot of work ( more with juvies). If you do try it i would recommend full grown for sure and like Pat said try them separate for while just to make sure. I was warned about keeping juvies with a planted tank from members this forum and they are correct. Most people shouldn't attempt it. My discus are doing good but has been allot of work to keep water parameters good for them. I hope what I said other member in this forum agree with.

[~magpie~]

Thanks all, I truly appreciate the input - there is so much good information on this forum. I don't want to be one of "those people" who come on forums and ask advice and then don't listen.... however I know that discus can be kept in planted tanks with the right care. I'm not new to aquariums nor plants, so I am really trying to learn as much as I can to make it work. Adults, light stocking, and my tank temp is currently at 82-83 and everyone is doing well so far. I might get that attachment to increase flow for O2, and will do a prefilter. I will do water changes as recommended. If all else fails, I can tear the tank down and do a thin layer of sand, tons of driftwood and anubias all over the place. But I really don't want to. I just love love love the plants.
Curious about the drip system, though....

[Phillydubs]

Magpie,

Sorry been a crazy weekend and I missed your reply to me here... I didn't mean to confuse you further. My point was that you are so back and forth on what to do and how to care for them both, that is why I reiterated that it had been suggested to try both separately...

No one is saying you can't do it or it hasn't been done and done well... The issues arises in the pure fact that discus are new to you and you are now trying to learn them and take care of them in a tough environment... If I had never played baseball or swung a bat before, would you think it would be in my best interest to start by having a major league pitcher throw me 99MPH fast balls? You see what I am saying? Everyone's concern is that you are ripping the swimmies off and dicing in the deep end without really knowing how to swim... Grasping the concept and researching is one thing and great... Once those fish are tanked and you start to care for them and problems arises and such is when disaster can set in...

If you are adamant about doing this, which it seems you are, just be aware of the pitfalls and be ready to put the time and effort needed to get things going. It sounds like you are ready to buy adults, do water changes and put in the proper care...

It also sounds like you are ready to tear it down should things go south... Do you have another tank that you could pull plants and move them if need be...?

A drip system is nice but not a replacement for water changes... Most only do a small % which isn't enough and the debris and leftover food and poop is still present which is really what corrodes the water, not removing just the water. So even if you had a 100% daily drip, without siphoning and cleaning the substrate, it isn't really doing much. Now if you can combine the two then you may be in business... until then, do your big water changes and good siphoning... make sure you can get in and around the plants as that seems to be the main issue with keeping planted tanks, debris gets all in and around the plants and just sits and rots and hurts the water...

Some use dedicated feeding areas in the tank so the food trys to stay condensed to one area, but even that is tricky...

[~magpie~]

Thanks again, I do understand what you're saying. I looked into the drip method and that is not going to happen. We are currently renters so it would be really difficult. The water changes will be the way to go.

I have another thread open for the transitioning of my tank, and I decided that I am going to at least change my substrate to sand (even though I'm a little nervous about my current fish during the process, but have been assured it will all be ok. :) ). So when I do that I will rescape some. I'll open up the front of the tank more, space out or maybe even replace the large swords, and either move the wood a little or get another larger single piece (opinion on this?) I have a 30-gallon tank and a 10-gallon tank not currently being used. So those could be very temporary housing should my planted discus tank not work and I need to start over. If it doesn't, my plan will still be not to go totally plantless, but just less rooted plants - a fine sand layer with driftwood and lots of anubias and java ferns as well as floating plants which do a lot to take up the 'bad stuff' from an aquarium.

Do you think that I should get this Eheim replacement for the spray bar to increase gph/surface circulation, or just point it all up toward the surface?
http://www.thatpetplace.com/eshopps-...et-1-2in-3-4in

[~magpie~]

Also, I found another tank I love the look of!

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/100-low-tech-forum/531346-low-tech-80g-planted-discus-tank.html#/forumsite/20495/topics/531346?page=1

[Phillydubs]

Nice tank however those discus leave somethif to be desired.

[zergling]

In addition to what folks have already suggested, I also recommend:

1) Have ammonia and nitrite test kits ready. Be sure to check the expiration dates on these kits. Test for ammonia and nitrites daily for the first week at least, especially when they get accustomed to their new home and start eating. It's very easy to underestimate how much bio load they bring, and your beneficial bacteria population may or may not be able to keep up initially.

2) Be prepared to do daily 50% water changes or more. Any sign of ammonia or nitrite, do a 50% wc or more.

3) Consider getting Al's freeze dried Australian blackworms. IME, discus are the most finicky eaters I've ever had, and Al's fdbw is the easiest dry food to get them eating.

Just like you, I have years (decades..?) of experience with planted tanks, and turned my 65g into a planted discus tank last year. If I could do it all over, I'd probably have gone bare bottom first for a year or so to focus on learning discus care, then later upgrade to a bigger planted tank.

[Darcon]

Nice tank, which you presented as favorite, but not all plants survive with adult discus, I think. Plants look very gently, adult discus can destroy it a little.

[~magpie~]

Nice tank however those discus leave somethif to be desired.
I honestly was solely looking at the scaping, with a nice wood piece, and plants but lots of open space....


In addition to what folks have already suggested, I also recommend:

1) Have ammonia and nitrite test kits ready. Be sure to check the expiration dates on these kits. Test for ammonia and nitrites daily for the first week at least, especially when they get accustomed to their new home and start eating. It's very easy to underestimate how much bio load they bring, and your beneficial bacteria population may or may not be able to keep up initially.

2) Be prepared to do daily 50% water changes or more. Any sign of ammonia or nitrite, do a 50% wc or more.

3) Consider getting Al's freeze dried Australian blackworms. IME, discus are the most finicky eaters I've ever had, and Al's fdbw is the easiest dry food to get them eating.

Just like you, I have years (decades..?) of experience with planted tanks, and turned my 65g into a planted discus tank last year. If I could do it all over, I'd probably have gone bare bottom first for a year or so to focus on learning discus care, then later upgrade to a bigger planted tank.
Thanks for the input. I have the full water test kit. I actually have a brand new one because a co-worker borrowed my old one when she started up a few new tanks and she replaced mine as a gift.

Good info on the food too - there is a lot out there and I honestly had no idea where to start.


Nice tank, which you presented as favorite, but not all plants survive with adult discus, I think. Plants look very gently, adult discus can destroy it a little.
You probably mean the cabombas? I was just looking at the overall tank design, not individual plants per se. I currently have amazon swords, vals, anubias, java ferns, small chain swords and small crypts and I'm sure they'd all be fine.


In my other thread, someone posted about my tank dimensions, comparing it to one they had that was a bit smaller but not a lot smaller, and he thought that they might not have enough room to stretch out their legs so to speak in mine despite it being 65 gallons. (It's like a 65 tall, only 36" long, 18" deep, 24" tall.)

I think there is so much warning and caution and "don't do it!" here, and then this person's input that I am just about ready to scrap this whole project. I just wanted fish that were new, fun, and exciting wihtout converting to saltwater quite yet. Maybe I just need to rehome all of my current inhabitants and start over with some larger fish and some rope fish, which I adore.
I don't want gourami, I don't really want angels, and don't really want any other SA cichlids (other than discus). Or maybe I just get a large group of bolivians since they're fun and not too aggro. I just loooove discus. :(

Alternately I get a 75 gallon tank but then I have to spend that money, get rid of this one, and rearrange my house, since this one fits perfectly in the spot that it lives. (Which is why I went with it, but now I'm annoyed with it.)

Sorry. Just disappointed and venting.

[bigdreams]

I know the feeling.. Was disappointed when I decided not to do planted discus tank too. However I am glad I listened to the wisdom here... My planted tank got camallamus worms suddenly, which was taken care of quickly because I spotted it early. Then got a bunch of cardinal tetras and I made rookie mistakes during QT and more than half died... I realized I gotta work up to discus, definitely not ready even though I have done tons of research. Also you are renting, so am I! I can't imagine moving a discus tank... So I am saving the discus tank for when I retire, or get a house. Good luck, btw disappointment hurts less than losing hundreds of $$ of fish. Hang in there!