Test #3 – Growing out discus fry with limited water changes and plants/algae scrubber

[Luke in Phoenix]

Purpose:
Observe Spawning and fry growth with limited water changes. IE: less than 15% / month on average.
Instead of large water changes, water will be filtered using floating plants and an algae scrubber.


Questions:
Will discus thrive and be healthy?
Will discus spawn?
If they spawn, will the fry survive?
If the fry survive, how healthy will they be?



Aquarium setup:
- 40-gallon breeder tank and 80-gallon display tank. Both connected to a 20-gallon sump.
- 3 sock filters
- Eheim Canister filter
- 80-watt Emperor Smart UV High-Output on the main display return pump line with 360 GPH flow
- Aqua Advantage 15-watt sterilizer on Breeder tank with about 50-100 GPH flow
- Algae scrubber in sump
- Added Frogbit floating plants to the display and breeder tank
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Water specs:
Temperature – 82
TDS - 360
PH - 6.5
KH - 0
Nitrate - 5



Only Water Changes since August 2015:
- 50% August – November 2015
- 5% - December 2015
- 5% - January 2016
- 32% - February 2016
- 50% - March 2016
- 2% - May 2016
- 1% - June 2016
- 3% - July 2016
- 4% - August 2016



Display tank fish:
- 9 Adult discus
- 5 Bristle nose plecos
- 1 Cory

Breeder tank fish:
- Pair of red dragon Discus (parents for this test)
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3 pairs of discus spawn every 1-2 weeks in the display tank. All fish appear healthy and active except for one male discus that lost some of his color similar to what happened to the fish with spots on 5-11-2016 in test #2
Test #2 link: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122295-Fry-grow-out-test-with-an-algae-scrubber-Water-change-health-and-growth-rate-test/page4
I'll continue to monitor this fish.



The red dragon discus pair was moved to the breeder tank and produced approximately 100 wigglers on 8-8-2016. This is the first time, these parents will grow out fry.
picture on 8-9-2016:
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Pictures on 8-14-2016:
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We’ll observe these fry and see how they do. I did not use any methylene blue this time and started to increase the TDS and calcium after fry became wigglers. I’m crossing my fingers that these fry have no deformities during this test.


I do not have a separate tank available for a control group with regular water changes and traditional husbandry but if there is somebody in Phoenix that is interested and willing to commit to the experiment, I’ll give you a portion of the fry. Any takers? :) I do not know how to ship.



Additional information on the aquarium setup and results from the first and second test can be found in “The Laboratory” Here are the links:

1st test thread “Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate test”: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?121677-How-to-grow-out-large-fry-experiment-How-many-water-changes-needed

2nd test “How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed”: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122295-Fry-grow-out-test-with-an-algae-scrubber-Water-change-health-and-growth-rate-test

The blue and red parents from these test are in the display tank now.

[Luke in Phoenix]

Picture from today eating baby brine shrimp:
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Increased TDS to 440
PH = 6.8
Redox = 390

[Luke in Phoenix]

update:
This is the male fish I mentioned is losing some color. He is an older discus.
He should look like this picture taken a few months ago:
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He currently looks like this:
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He might improve with increased TDS nutrients in the water and different food like the fish in test #2 improved that developed the same thing / white spots. If not, and he gets to much worse, I may move him into another tank.



All other fish look great including this pic from yesterday of the Dad from test #1 and #2
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[Luke in Phoenix]

Update:

TDS: 620
KH: 2 (up from 0)
Redox: 350
Temperature: 83
PH: 7.1-7.2

Nitrates: 0
The nitrates went back down to zero after slowly increasing the minerals in the water. I noticed that when the TDS gets to low and the KH down to 0, the Algae / plants do not grow as well and the nitrates went up to as high as 20.

I was able to get a better count today of the fry. I believe there are about 70.
Fry are about 2 weeks old.
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I can tell already that some of the fry have the same dorsal fin deformity as in test #2. Some of them may grow out of it as they did in test #2.

Others pairs of discus in display tank continue to spawn.
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[pastry]

I like this. Definitely going to hit a nerve with folks BUT, when raking a step back, your making a thread for folks to reference. Still a very limited experiment and almost wish you took half of the spawn and did a higher wc rate for them but still a great future reference!

Update: just saw your statement on control group limitation. Rgr!

[FishFanMan]

I don't believe any of this...

[Luke in Phoenix]

I’ve also been surprised at the results as well!

I’ve seen people write about the effectiveness of using plants / algae to filter their aquariums and wanted to see for myself what the possibilities are. This has morphed into a “pushing the limits” test.

Like any experiment, I believe the results can be repeated by anybody. Somebody might have already done so and just never posted about it. I’m willing to accept that it could be a complete failure and post the results anyways even if I look “dumb” so other people can see the results. I have nothing to prove or sell, just doing this to learn and gain knowledge.

So far, for me, the algae scrubber and plants have proven to be a highly useful tool in filtering water and keeping aquariums healthy. How effective that tool can be is up for debate. These test may help other people who are wondering the same thing or debating about implementing a similar system.

[Luke in Phoenix]

Update:

TDS: 630
PH: 7.2
Redox: 350
Temp: 83


Pics of fry from today. They are approximately 16 days old.
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The older discus looks the same or slightly better as of today.
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[Luke in Phoenix]

3 weeks old today.

TDS - 660
Redox - 355

Mom removed from tank earlier this week.
Father removed yesterday.
Started to feed them beefheart / seafood mix today.

I was surprised that after reconnecting the mom and dad yesterday, they already spawned and laid eggs today in the display tank.
Older discus continues to improve.

Pics from today:
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[nc0gnet0]

I’ve also been surprised at the results as well!

I’ve seen people write about the effectiveness of using plants / algae to filter their aquariums and wanted to see for myself what the possibilities are. This has morphed into a “pushing the limits” test.

Like any experiment, I believe the results can be repeated by anybody. Somebody might have already done so and just never posted about it. I’m willing to accept that it could be a complete failure and post the results anyways even if I look “dumb” so other people can see the results. I have nothing to prove or sell, just doing this to learn and gain knowledge.

So far, for me, the algae scrubber and plants have proven to be a highly useful tool in filtering water and keeping aquariums healthy. How effective that tool can be is up for debate. These test may help other people who are wondering the same thing or debating about implementing a similar system.

With all do respect, I think your overplaying the plants a bit and at the same time underplaying the UV, It's an interesting test, but all that crap/uneaten food on the bottom of the fry tank will be your downfall, as it doesn't pass through the uv filter. Oh and as you increase your calcium/pH, your bacteria will flourish.

[Luke in Phoenix]

I agree this type of system would be very different without the UV. That's one of the reasons I post the redox numbers because I believe the UV helps to increase those.

The tank receives a daily eheim gravel vac. The bottom and sides are cleaned with an algae scrubber pad at least weekly and then vacuumed. I could probably do a better job at this. Usually I keep plecos in there that "clean" the glass. their waste is very easy to vacuum or it goes into the sock filters which I rinse every 1-3 days.

KH = 2
Nitrate = 5
Redox = 360
TDS = 670
PH = 7

[Luke in Phoenix]

Fry pics from today

TDS = 690
Redox = 365

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[Luke in Phoenix]

Update: Fry are approximately 1 month and 3 days old today.


TDS: 340
PH: 6.3
Redox: 389
Nitrate: 15


Only Water Changes since August 2015:
- 50% August – November 2015
- 5% - December 2015
- 5% - January 2016
- 32% - February 2016
- 50% - March 2016
- 2% - May 2016
- 1% - June 2016
- 3% - July 2016
- 4% - August 2016
- 60% - September 2016


Fry are eating vigorously. 90%+ look healthy to my untrained eye.

Nitrates are starting to rise so some of the fry and adults were separated.
42 healthy fry were given away. I should be able to get pics from them for updates later on.
Approximately 49 fry remain, for an approximate total of 91 fry to begin with. I didn’t think this was too bad for the first time this pair raised fry.
No fry culled yet.

6 total adults remain in display tank. The Red dragon pair and the blue turquoise pair from the previous test continue to lay eggs weekly.
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I pulled a couple of the fry for measuring. They are not very consistent size wise. I tried to pull a larger, average and smaller fry for measuring.

Larger fry:
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Average fry:
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Smaller fry:
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[Luke in Phoenix]

The older purple discus is back to his normal self and almost healed up all the way. No medications or anything like that was added.

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[Tres]

Would you like to share what your algae scrubber looks like, and how much light wattage you are putting into that and into the frogbits? My own thoughts are that it is perhaps a little undersized for your fish quantity, and that plants alone won't break down all the metabolic byproducts that livestock produces in order to achieve optimal health/growth. To achieve that my belief is that you'd need a generous sized biofilter as well as an ozoniser. But best of luck and I'm following how this does turn out!

[Luke in Phoenix]

You could be right. Each aquarium I’ve seen with an algae scrubber or other filtration has a “limit”. When mine is working 100% (optimal light and plant nutrients), I can feed up to 7-9 cubes of food per day and keep nitrates between 0-10. I went with the UV instead of the ozoniser but I’ll have to look into them again.


There are lots of algae scrubber designs out there with a quick google search but this one has worked well for me.
All of the lights I use are designed for growing plants or planted aquariums.

There is a 50 watt LED on the side of the sump that shines on an “upflow” algae scrubber. There is also a 90 watt led that shines down on the sump from above. I noticed this week that some of the 90 watt led lights were burned out and that might have been why the nitrates were rising. Usually I can feed even more and they stay lower. I turned on an additional 90 watts of led above the sump. We’ll know if it worked in a few more days if the nitrates go back down.

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Post 12 here has some more pics of the sump:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?121677-How-to-grow-out-large-fry-experiment-How-many-water-changes-needed


The display tank has two 54 watt led light fixtures above it.
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The top breeder tank has two 23 watt led light fixtures above it.
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[Tres]

Thanks, and so if you're pumping 300 watts of LED light into that plant/algae growth then perhaps that may well be able to keep up with as large a bioload as that!

But it's not just about nitrates in my understanding, (although this may be a helful indicator to track). It's hard to find specific decent research regarding it, but my understanding which I've arrived at after reviewing many different sources is that there are complex/long-chain organic molecules (organic carbon, of varying forms), that are a byproduct of your bioload's metabolism that can be difficult to break down and used by either plants or bacteria. But ozone will oxidize those compounds down to their basic forms which plants then are able to utilize as their fertilizer. Aquarists don't tend to rely on the use of ozone for the right reasons however, and they seem to believe that it is used primarily just for killing pathogens despite that this might not be its primary benefit in an otherwise generally healthy system.

Are you under the impression that the plants uptake TDS and keep that from climbing by the way, considering that you are regularly harvesting them to cycle nutrients back out? (It's something I've wondered about). Or have you considered other means of dealing with this such as regularly putting quite small filter-bags of DI resin into your filter to gently keep TDS down within whatever range you believe is appropriate?

[Luke in Phoenix]

I think you're right that the ozone can be risky. I will still probably try it eventually.

Yes on the plants / algae consuming TDS. I replace evaporated water with RO water and skim 1-2 cups of water out of the sump every 1-2 days. If I don't add minerals or KH, the TDS will continue to decline. I don't add any additional DI or anything like that.

[Luke in Phoenix]

Pros and cons update. But mostly cons today.

TDS: 370
PH: 6.9
Redox: 360
Phosphate was 0, increased to 2
Nitrate: 30


In my experience, Algae scrubbers do not always perform the same over time. In my opinion, it is because certain minerals and nutrients are used up by the algae more quickly than others. When a certain element, let’s say Iodine (including iodide and iodate) is depleted, it becomes a limiting factor, limiting the performance and filtration efficiency of the algae scrubber.

Over the past few years I’ve acquired various minerals and fertilizers to try and combat this problem:
101907


With the extremely low % of water changes, it has been challenging to know what the limiting element is and dose accordingly so that the algae scrubber maintains performance.

Right now the nitrates are all the way up to 30. It wasn’t the lighting. I suspect a lack of iodine currently... I just started dosing and monitoring. We’ll see if that helps bring it back down to 0.


For me, this search and find is a little frustrating at times. I’m thinking that the optimal setup would be to do just enough water changes that the algae scrubber does not have to be supplemented but the work of water changes is still reduced. The current water change schedule is obviously to low (shocker right? I purposefully started at the low end though) Additional trials are needed to find the best water change regime and it will vary tank by tank per feeding.


Update on the older purple fish: He is about 90% healed. I’ll post pics in subsequent post.

Fry are getting big. I will measure and post later on.


Below is a pic of the algae I removed today. This is about how much I remove every couple of days. It mostly floats to the top of the sump and I just scoop it out.

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[Luke in Phoenix]

2 month fry birthday tomorrow!

Only Water Changes since August 2015:
- 50% August – November 2015
- 5% - December 2015
- 5% - January 2016
- 32% - February 2016
- 50% - March 2016
- 2% - May 2016
- 1% - June 2016
- 3% - July 2016
- 4% - August 2016
- 60% & 40% - September 2016

Current stats:
TDS: 320
Redox: 350
PH: 6.9
Nitrate: 30
Iodine (all forms): <.05
Phosphate: 2 (Increased from 0 by adding monopotassium phosphate)


4 fish pulled for measuring birthday party:
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[Luke in Phoenix]

Fry are now 3 months old. Pics below on tape measure.

Only Water Changes since August 2015:
- 50% August – November 2015
- 5% - December 2015
- 5% - January 2016
- 32% - February 2016
- 50% - March 2016
- 2% - May 2016
- 1% - June 2016
- 3% - July 2016
- 4% - August 2016
- 60% & 40% - September 2016
- 20% - October 2016

Current stats:
TDS: 280
Redox: 385
PH: 6.7
Nitrate: 10


I wish I could have fed them more often this past month but I' was traveling a lot and the fry were only feed 1-2 / day.

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[Neptune]

I'm a beginner but, is that peppering normal or part of the high TDS?

[Luke in Phoenix]

I believe the peppering is genetic. I've never heard of TDS effecting it but others may have.

[Luke in Phoenix]

4 months old pics from yesterday below.

Only Water Changes since August 2015:
- 50% August – November 2015
- 5% - December 2015
- 5% - January 2016
- 32% - February 2016
- 50% - March 2016
- 2% - May 2016
- 1% - June 2016
- 3% - July 2016
- 4% - August 2016
- 60% & 40% - September 2016
- 20% - October 2016
- 30% - November 2016



Temp: 82 (i'm increasing to 83 today)
Nitrates: 25
TDS: 330
Redox: 410
PH: 6


104878104879

[Filip]

I am way too late with my response on this thread but anyway , nice progress Luke .The fry is 3.5 inch in 4 months with 20-30% WC monthly on average .
What was the number of the fry you are raising , the total number of discus in the whole system and the system tankage in Gallons ?
What do you feed them with ?
What filters do you use for mechanical and bio filtration ?
In what way do you consider UV unit helps maintaining your Redox in check ?

Nice experiment Luke .TFS with us .

[nc0gnet0]

The fish are a little small for their age, not too bad though.
Shape is not good at all, the head region is behind in growth, not getting the proper nutrients.
Fins are ragged and show signs of degradation

[Luke in Phoenix]

Hi Filip,
I gave away all but 3 fry now, they are in a 40 gallon tank with a couple of other 4.5” discus. There is also an 80 gallon display tank with around 9 adult discus. Both tanks are connected to a 20 gallon refugium with an upflow algae scrubber in it. Other filtration includes a large eheim canister filter, 2 sock filters and UV Sterilizers on the 40 and 80 gallon tanks.
I’m not an expert on UV but I think this is an interesting article: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html#aquarium_redox

I will post my beefheart recipe below.

[Luke in Phoenix]

The fish are a little small for their age, not too bad though.
Shape is not good at all, the head region is behind in growth, not getting the proper nutrients.
Fins are ragged and show signs of degradation


Hi Rick, fry fins continue to show signs of degradation.

This is my beefheart recipe. It’s usually a little different each time but I always love hearing ways to improve nutrients. For water nutrients, sometimes I add Discus trace, calcium and minerals.

Recipe:
Beef heart - 3 pounds
Fish (saltwater, usually salmon or tuna) - 1 pound
Shrimp - 1 pound, peeled
Egg yolk - 3 egg yolks

Astaxanthin - 1 tablespoon
Lecithin - 2 tablespoons
Garlic - 2 cloves
Paprika - 1 tablespoon
Spirulina - 2 tablespoon
Vita Chem vitamins - 5 tablespoons
Fish oil / krill oil – 10-20 emptied pills
Brewer’s yeast - 1 tablespoon
Gluten powder - 2 tablespoons
Liquid calcium - 3 tablespoons
Discus trace - 12 tablespoons
Gelatin - 1 packet, with discus trace elements mixed in for liquid
Banana - 1

[nc0gnet0]

105537
105538

[nc0gnet0]

Hi Rick, fry fins continue to show signs of degradation.

This is my beefheart recipe. It’s usually a little different each time but I always love hearing ways to improve nutrients. For water nutrients, sometimes I add Discus trace, calcium and minerals.

Recipe:
Beef heart - 3 pounds
Fish (saltwater, usually salmon or tuna) - 1 pound
Shrimp - 1 pound, peeled
Egg yolk - 3 egg yolks

Astaxanthin - 1 tablespoon
Lecithin - 2 tablespoons
Garlic - 2 cloves
Paprika - 1 tablespoon
Spirulina - 2 tablespoon
Vita Chem vitamins - 5 tablespoons
Fish oil / krill oil – 10-20 emptied pills
Brewer’s yeast - 1 tablespoon
Gluten powder - 2 tablespoons
Liquid calcium - 3 tablespoons
Discus trace - 12 tablespoons
Gelatin - 1 packet, with discus trace elements mixed in for liquid
Banana - 1

I'm the wrong one to ask on BH recipes, I don't feed the crap ;)

Before I add some more constructive criticism, let me say I like what your trying and your willingness to post results. I do however take issue with the fact you sold some of these fry, IMO, they should have been culled.

Hopefully you will try another batch, and if I may, I would like to suggest some changes to your routine.

1) I would like to see the scrubber only be used on the grow-out tank, not coupled with the display tank.
2) I think most of your problems "might" clear up if you didn't take things to such an extreme, perhaps once weekly WC of 80%. Also, add some crushed coral to the tank.
3) Consider a cleaner food, like Al's FDBW's.
4) Some better parental stock would be nice as well.

Here are a couple of photo's of some juvies of mine, within a week age of yours. These were raised with traditional methods. Nothing special, just some basic browns. The purpose is to compare the regions on my fish to yours that I highlighted.

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just crappy cell phone pics, but you get the idea.

[LoGeek]

I'm the wrong one to ask on BH recipes, I don't feed the crap ;)

That's interesting Rick. Is their a good thread on this? What food are you using and how often for juvies/adults?

I'm feeding BH and D50+ but I really find the BH to be messy.

[Ken]

Here are a couple of photo's of some juvies of mine, within a week age of yours. These were raised with traditional methods. Nothing special, just some basic browns. The purpose is to compare the regions on my fish to yours that I highlighted.

What was your grow out regiment?
Thanks

[nc0gnet0]

Good food and 2x daily water changes.

[LoGeek]

Good food and 2x daily water changes.

But what do you feed, since you do not use BH?

[nc0gnet0]

But what do you feed, since you do not use BH?

I feed Al's FDBW's, a pellet, and a flake. I really don't hate BH, that was an inside joke (but I don't feed it), however for the OP's purpose I think there are cleaner foods out there.

-Rick

[LoGeek]

I feed Al's FDBW's, a pellet, and a flake. I really don't hate BH, that was an inside joke (but I don't feed it), however for the OP's purpose I think there are cleaner foods out there.

-Rick

Is there a good thread on this? I thought all of you with such big nice fish were feeding BH. I'd love to get away from it. Really messy!

I've tried some FDBW, but thought it was just a snack and not as a full meal as BH. They don't eat it however. Not even after 2.5 weeks of no food when I was abroad.

[RogueDiscus]

Just being sure you understand the FDBW are blackworms, not blood worms. The bloodworms are often considered snack food, mostly water, but the FDBW are high protein. Yours would be the first fish I've heard of that didn't like them :) many here use them, and Al the forum owner sells them (Aquatic Suppliers). I use them and a pellet.

[LoGeek]

Just being sure you understand the FDBW are blackworms, not blood worms. The bloodworms are often considered snack food, mostly water, but the FDBW are high protein. Yours would be the first fish I've heard of that didn't like them :) many here use them, and Al the forum owner sells them (Aquatic Suppliers). I use them and a pellet.

I checked and I have blood worms! Would that explain why they don't eat it? More likely they'll eat the black worms if I can find them here?

[RogueDiscus]

Check out the banner that is often at the top of the page for Aquatic Suppliers, or find them in the Sponsor section. I don't know if Al can ship to you or not.

[LoGeek]

Yes, importing from US might be an idea. I found these in UK which is easier because it's also in the EU. Are these australian worms the same?

http://seasideaquatics.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=198

Also they seem really expensive!

[RogueDiscus]

Yes, I think so. Al's are from Australia too. His are $260 for 1Kg, not sure what the exchange rate is. They're not cheap but the fish love them. I mentioned your thread to him and he may chime in and suggest a source for you.

[LoGeek]

So how long would a kg last for 10 discus? Is it in cubes? How many gr is one cube and how many would you feed?

[RogueDiscus]

You can buy it loose or in roughly 1.5x1.5x1 cm cubes. I feed about 1 cube for each 2 adult fish at each feeding. Playing with the math, the Kg is about 20x20x15 cm, 6000 cm^3, or ~2500 cubes, since they're not packed tightly. You can buy smaller quantities too.

[LoGeek]

You can buy it loose or in roughly 1.5x1.5x1 cm cubes. I feed about 1 cube for each 2 adult fish at each feeding. Playing with the math, the Kg is about 20x20x15 cm, 6000 cm^3, or ~2500 cubes, since they're not packed tightly. You can buy smaller quantities too.

Thanks! I would need about 2kg a year then for 10 discus. It seems very expensive compared to BH.

[Luke in Phoenix]

I feed Al's FDBW every once in a while also. They are great but get sucked into my overflows.


5 months old pics from yesterday below.


Only Water Changes since August 2015:
- 50% August – November 2015
- 5% - December 2015
- 5% - January 2016
- 32% - February 2016
- 50% - March 2016
- 2% - May 2016
- 1% - June 2016
- 3% - July 2016
- 4% - August 2016
- 60% & 40% - September 2016
- 20% - October 2016
- 30% - November 2016
- 60% - December 2016



Temp: 83
Nitrates: 3
TDS: 110
Redox: 385
PH: 6.7
Phosphates: 1-2 (I add phosphate supplements)


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[Luke in Phoenix]

Stendker discus sizes:

http://diskuszucht-stendker.de/plugins_en/pdfs/1.5_Alter_und_Groessee_unserer_Diskusfische_en.pdf

[Luke in Phoenix]

6 months old pics from 2-13-2017 below.


Only Water Changes since August 2015:
- 50% August – November 2015
- 5% - December 2015
- 5% - January 2016
- 32% - February 2016
- 50% - March 2016
- 2% - May 2016
- 1% - June 2016
- 3% - July 2016
- 4% - August 2016
- 60% & 40% - September 2016
- 20% - October 2016
- 30% - November 2016
- 60% - December 2016
- 100% - January 2017


Nitrates: 25

Fry are fed 2X / day.

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[Luke in Phoenix]

These are pictures from a friend who raised 7 fry from this same batch. They were separated at about 1 month old and raised with a traditional water change schedule.

They were fed a "ton" in a 55 gallon tank with 50% daily WC. He says they are 5" but didn't put them on a tape. 6 are about the same size with 1 smaller one.

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[Filip]

Your friend discus looks much better Luke , which is more or less ,expected .Their colour is much brighter and they have less peppering ,any idea why is that?

As for the comparision sizes , i didnt get the info on how big have yours grown so far ?
IMO his discus looks above 5 inch from the pics . More like 5.5-6 inches to me.

[Luke in Phoenix]

Agreed, imo, his look great.
One of the pictures I posted of my growing discus should include a tape measure picture. His look bigger.

I was under the impression that peppering was genetic but with these results it seems like it may also have something to do with water?

[brewmaster15]

Luke peppering is genetic but its expression is affected by stress and background. Your background is dark...his blue.. it minimizes the expression. Id say his fish look better, probably have better health and as a result ...less stress. The water itself maybe be stressing out your fish.
Hth,
Al

[planter]

I admire your effort to experiment but to me at the end of the day nothing is like fresh clean water.

Not just for discus but in general.

Ive run several heavily planted tank's where about 70 - 80 percent is planted. I've had setups where some plants were growing around an inch a day. Even with a heavy plant mass long term success was dependant on water changes. I did a 50 percent change a week. If I skipped one or 2 changes it was apparent.

I know others will have different opinions but I've never had someone tell me that water changes were bad.

Out with the old in with the new I say.

[alron2]

Luke,
I call your experiment a success, at least for me, I am convinced that big water changes are required
The debate should be finished, and yes, John from Texas was correct. I should have known it.
Ron

[Jenene]

Luke, your thread was solid proof that you can't cut corners raising fry. Your friend got a great deal getting those 7 and raising them. They are gorgeous. This is why I tend to disagree with a previous comment that you should have started with better parents. The one showed some peppering but raised in the proper environment and it turned out to be a non issue.

My question now is what happens to all these poor fish?

Thanks for sharing this with us. It was definitely interesting to see.

[hotrodder]

I really like your experiment, at the least it means you are trying to think outside the box.
That's how new things are discover.
Remember that in the old days "they would only survive in acidic waters"

I think you should try once again, but you need to be in control of all variables. I don't know if you have room for it but you should have a control tank and try different variables in other tanks. Could it be that your friend discus heve been fed different foods? Different quantitys?

I can confirm that water changes make miracles. You can recovery discus by just change water, their colours turn brighter with and you can see them grow. But that we all know, we just don't know whatever haven't been tried.

As to the pepper, light can make it appear. Does your tank has light going on? How strong? How many hours?

Keep on!:guitarist:

[Demosthenes]

What a great experiment! I'd love to see a version that is less extreme - maybe doing 60% wc once per week and cut out the UV sterilizer. I think the big question that most amateur discus keepers are trying to answer is "how little maintenance can I get away with and still be successful." This experiment clearly went way past that line, and we could all pretty much guess at the results. But it seems like we're still pretty far away from answering the question. These results don't really settle anything for the people arguing between daily 80% changes and twice weekly 50% changes.

I also just love that this is attempting to test the filtering capabilities of plants. Coming from planted tanks myself, I've felt more than a little confused at some of the more adamant opinions on this site regarding plants. Even though the outcomes in this test were poor, they were honestly not as poor as I would have expected. It feels somewhat validating to those of us who have argued from the beginning that plants can be beneficial for water quality.

[Luke in Phoenix]

Thanks for the feedback, I'm glad some people found it interesting. I agree it would be interesting to do a less "extreme" test and will probably do it in the future. I believe the plants/algae scrubber improved the water quality but not enough in this test.

When the algae/plants are grown faster they seem to help even more but it I've found the supplements / fertilizers are finicky and by the time you mess around with trying to figure out if you need to add, iron, potassium, calcium, phosphates, etc... list goes on, it is easier to just do a water change. Either way, a positive addition to any aquarium. Up for individual debate is how much of a positive effect. Probably depends on the quantity of algae / plants grown and the fish load...

[Luke in Phoenix]

Luke peppering is genetic but its expression is affected by stress and background. Your background is dark...his blue.. it minimizes the expression. Id say his fish look better, probably have better health and as a result ...less stress. The water itself maybe be stressing out your fish.
Hth,
Al

Thanks for commenting Al. Good to know.

[Paul Sabucchi]

Thanks Luke for this thread, I read it a few months ago as I startes swatting to learn how best to set up a discus tank (100 gal BB almost cycled - fish in by end of September). To be on the safe side I will grow these juvies with plenty of WC but as I also have 2 well established 100 gal mbuna tanks with similar bioload it inspired me to try a scrubber with one tank. I built a 5'×4" shallow tray that sits on top of the tank braces, water flows in from one of the canister returns and falls back in the tank through an overflow. Lighting is 4x8w red and blue plant growth LED bars. In a nutshell once established the tank now can go weeks without WC and no detectable nitrates, the other tank goes from 10mg/l to 25 in about 10 days. As rightly said above it would be interesting to see if it is possible to raise discus with a scrubber and little wc, comparing to a similar setup with trad wc. Personally I am convinced algae scrubbers are useful, particularly in tanks with no plants. Maybe though we should look at scrubbers and wc not as mutually alternative but rather as complementary. Probably it would be better to continue the wc to reduce bacteria and other pollutants and use the scrubber to keep nirates and phosphates (and possibly also nuisance algae in the tank) to a minimum in between water changes. Ciao

[Luke in Phoenix]

Very cool! Thanks for sharing. Glad it helped. Sounds like your scrubber could easily reduce your needed WC by half or more and still have optimal water. That's a lot of time and water saved! Even better if the fish are happier. Do you notice a difference in the discus in the scrubber tank with less WC compared to the other tank?

[Luke in Phoenix]

Thanks Luke for this thread, I read it a few months ago as I startes swatting to learn how best to set up a discus tank...

Would love to see some pics of your setup if you have any. :)

[Paul Sabucchi]

As mentioned I have set the scrubber up in one of my MBUNA tanks, will post some photos as I find them (had them all neatly filed on photobucket and the buggers changed the rules and asked for ransom). The 100gal discus tank is cycled but still empty, fish will go in end of September (still too hot for shipping). My multiple tank syndrome has gradually worsened over the last 12 years and about a year ago decided to "do Discus" so started to swat up on this and some Italian forums. As I am getting juvies to grow out I would love to do a parallel test (all other things being equal) between a traditional BB high wc and a low wc+algae scrubber but only got room for one tank so to be on the safe side I will go traditional for the growout period and probably add the scrubber once grown and actually considering if Daphnia could grow in the scrubber, so some would drop in the tank from the overflow and provvide good fresh food and some fun for the fish.

[Paul Sabucchi]

Would love to see some pics of your setup if you have any. :)
Will download the build photos from Phuckingbucket and post them here, these are a few I had left on the phone. The scrubber is a 5' long shallow tray that sits on top of the tank braces, the lights are on the tank lid. Algae grow on Darice #7 rigid plastic canvas. NO3 tests show results from similarly stocked and fed 100gal mbuna tanks, the tanks both had massive repeated wc to bring NO3s to 0, then over 6 weeks the one with the scrubber was left as is for 6 weeks, the other had 50% water changes at 2 week intervals twice then left two weeks, then I tested the water from both tanks and the results are pretty obvious. At some point I would like to repeat the comparison also testing for phosphates and desolved oxygen. Ciao

[Paul Sabucchi]

Here is a photo of the (black expanded PVC) tray housing the roughed up plastic canvas. The water flow is provided by the return of one of the two 300 gph canister filters, it goes in from a hole on the side and out from a height adjustable overflow trough the hole at the bottom of the other end. Ciao

[Luke in Phoenix]

Very cool setup. I like how you put the lights in the hood and it takes up no extra space. No sump needed!
I test my phosphates and they quickly go to zero. I actually dose phosphates in my tak to keep the algae growing faster.

[Paul Sabucchi]

Very cool setup. I like how you put the lights in the hood and it takes up no extra space. No sump needed!
I test my phosphates and they quickly go to zero. I actually dose phosphates in my tak to keep the algae growing faster.

Very interesting, the hair algae in the scrubber look a little thinner and nitrates yesterday were almost up to 10 so may have to test for phosphates and if necessary dose some, what do you use? Cheers, grazie & ciao

[Luke in Phoenix]

what do you use?

This is what I use but I'm sure there are lots of options. I try to keep it around 2ppm, it goes down pretty quickly. I've seen many people dose Iron and other items to "feed" the algae and keep it filtering at the highest level possible.

112118

[Paul Sabucchi]

Cheers!

[zhuls1]

Hey Luke, I have been following your experiments with keen interest. Whilst I think this thread was very interesting, I do not think that it is by any means a fair test. Your friends water will be different to yours, he feeds alot and your nitrates were all over the place. At times, your nitrates were at levels many hobbyist would consider unacceptable. It would be hard to tell how much of the growth has to do with waterchanges as opposed to how much of it is due to the other factors involved. What I think would give the scrubber / any other nitrate reducing method a fair chance is if you used it in conjunction with just enough waterchanges to keep your nitrates at <5ppm. Then a seperate control tank with the same feeding schedule but daily waterchanges. This way we will learn whether this means of filtration will be effective in aiding fish growth even with reduced waterchanges. Remember, your tap water has nutrients that your algae scrubber can use so if you are doing frequent / semi- frequent waterchanges, their likely will not be a need to dose these elements. I know you have plans for the Biocenosis Clarification Baskets as do I, I am also very interested in this as I have already made the BCB's and will be adding them to my sump sometime over the next week or 2.

[Luke in Phoenix]

Thanks for the ideas. I agree. If stocking was reduced to keep nitrates <5 ppm then that would be ideal to test the algae scrubber.

I have since realized part of the problem with the spiking nitrates in this test was part of the LED lights running the scrubber burned out and I didn't notice. I replaced the LED light and nitrates are now back to 1-4 PPM with 15 adult discus in the system and 4 cubes of food / day.

[lastflea]

Hi Luke. Thanks for running this experiment. I'm setting up my first discus tank and intend to use an algae scrubber in the sump and I'll be using the waterfall system. I'll be stocking 12, 3" juveniles in a BB tank, and had wondered about adding frogbit. I think I might just do that after reading this journal. I think I'll start with weekly, 50% water changes and see how that rolls to begin with. That seems to be a more realistic goal, and certainly more desirable than daily. My tank is 630l (166 USG) with a 130l (34USG sump). Think I might start a thread here when I'm up and running. Tank is still in build stage, around 3 months maybe. Thanks again :)

[Luke in Phoenix]

Hi Luke. Thanks for running this experiment. I'm setting up my first discus tank and intend to use an algae scrubber in the sump... Thanks again :)

Hi Rob, Glad you like it. Sounds like an awesome tank. Since you have a sump and are in the setup stage I highly recommend you check out the DIY anoxic filtration system as well.

I posted about it here: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?130047-DIY-quot-Anoxic-Filtration-System-quot-eliminates-nitrates-Anyone-tried-this

Good luck!

[lastflea]

Hi Rob, Glad you like it. Sounds like an awesome tank. Since you have a sump and are in the setup stage I highly recommend you check out the DIY anoxic filtration system as well.

I posted about it here: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?130047-DIY-quot-Anoxic-Filtration-System-quot-eliminates-nitrates-Anyone-tried-this

Good luck!

Thanks for this Luke. I'm up to page 7. Looks very promising, and not even sure an algae scrubber is needed along side it. Seeing as this experiment is concluded I'll take up comments on the Anoxic filter thread. Thanks again, and looking forward to catching up with your progress. 27 pages... It might take me a while ;)